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Old 04-27-2018, 08:10 AM
The Big D The Big D is offline
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Default UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.

Yesterday was my yearly LEOSA qualification and in a very brief ‘dry fire’ segment designed to familiarize folks who may not be shooting more than once a year with drawing upon target presentation, I experienced my very first ever non-intentional mechanical malfunction of a pistol.

My M60, NY-1 failed to recycle the hammer properly and only functioned as it should about every 6th-7th pull.

Thankfully, had my 642 in the car and the gracious range personnel and fellow classmates allowed me time to retrieve it and qualify.

Note: Shooting 80 +P rounds in a 642 is zero fun.

More later..

Be safe.

Last edited by The Big D; 05-16-2018 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:00 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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You probably already know this but NYPD started having issues with the 60's which led to it being dropped as one of the approved guns back then.

Officers that purchased one were required to take it to the PD's range personnel for re-inspection and function test. Those that passed were stamped with a small silhouette symbol near the NY-1 marking on the frame.

But some problems continued and eventually Smith & Wesson agreed to buy/ voucher back the ones sold to officers and the unsold ones were returned to the factory for re-configuration, inspection, and re-sale to the public.

Anyway it sounds like range personnel were very accommodating so congratulations on your LEOSA qualification.

Last edited by lonestar57; 04-27-2018 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:07 AM
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It never hurts to have a back-up near at hand. The situation described does not rise to the level of "emergency", but it does demonstrate the possible consequences of a mechanical failure.

In recent years my back-up piece has been a 2" Model 64, older 1970's LE issue .38 Special revolver that I picked up at a decent price. Although it weighs about twice as much as the OP's 642, my social security aged hands and wrists don't appreciate extended use of +P ammo with it. 80 rounds of +P at one range session would leave me a bit rattled!
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:38 PM
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Default Update.

Thanks for the replies...will check for the ‘passed’ stamp logo.

Range personnel said it was a timing issue possibly involving a spring. (I am a user; not a fixer. . Will most assuredly find an armored familiar with SW wheel guns to ensure a proper fix.)

Perhaps of interest is that they check ALL guns for function/safety during the classroom portion of the quals. And will repair any issues uncovered. This is NOT the fault/responsibility of anyone other than me.

Bought the gun from a Forum member; have used/carried for longer than I can recall though the 642 is my usual CCW.

Will update once the gun is fixed.

Be safe.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:33 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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when I owned a 642, one box 50 rounds was my limit. anything more my hand would hurt for days!
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:55 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Perhaps of interest is that they check ALL guns for function/safety during the classroom portion of the quals. And will repair any issues uncovered. This is NOT the fault/responsibility of anyone other than me.

So why didn't they repair yours?
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Old 04-28-2018, 02:19 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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I always take at least two pistols to my annual LEOSA qualification, and qualify with both.
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Old 04-28-2018, 03:44 AM
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Call S&W and ask if they will repair or replace an obviously faulty product. Ask for a mailer.

They have always done what is right when I asked them.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:02 AM
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I'm just thinking that I may take my Victory pistol and 617 revolver to qualify with this year. They are my most used guns and I enjoy shooting them. No recoil and optics may be the ticket.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:13 AM
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Default Stamped.

Good info. Mine is stamped with the outline of an inverted 'T.'

Not sure if that is the inspection mark but will contact S&W.

Thank you.

Be safe

'
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonestar57 View Post
You probably already know this but NYPD started having issues with the 60's which led to it being dropped as one of the approved guns back then.

Officers that purchased one were required to take it to the PD's range personnel for re-inspection and function test. Those that passed were stamped with a small silhouette symbol near the NY-1 marking on the frame.

But some problems continued and eventually Smith & Wesson agreed to buy/ voucher back the ones sold to officers and the unsold ones were returned to the factory for re-configuration, inspection, and re-sale to the public.

Anyway it sounds like range personnel were very accommodating so congratulations on your LEOSA qualification.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:16 AM
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Default Problem did not present.

Guns are inspected whilst the classroom portion is ongoing.

My gun did not 'break' until we were physically on the range. It would not have been cool to delay the other ten (10) shooters whilst they fixed a problem unique to me.

Be safe.

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So why didn't they repair yours?
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:22 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Ah. Your troubles wouldn't show up in a cursory inspection unless an armorer did it, and maybe not even then . . .

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Guns are inspected whilst the classroom portion is ongoing.

My gun did not 'break' until we were physically on the range. It would not have been cool to delay the other ten (10) shooters whilst they fixed a problem unique to me.

Be safe.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:25 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
Good info. Mine is stamped with the outline of an inverted 'T.'

Not sure if that is the inspection mark but will contact S&W.

Thank you.

Be safe

'
Here is the stamping on my Model 60 NY-1. The little symbol I referred to is the one just left of NY-1 mark. It's upside down which I've seen them either way.
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:29 AM
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Default Interesting...

...observation. But the fact is it was inspected by an armorer.

All the range personnel are cross trained as armorers, and they maintain parts for just about every modern gun. This is addressed each year at LEOSA quals, and they repair more than a few guns.

FYI, the facility is the Maryland Police and Corrections Training Commission. They are a terrific state organization doing LEO training from recruits to sniper school. All training for Maryland LEO's save the big cities that do their own and even those send personnel for certain advanced training.

Be safe.

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Ah. Your troubles wouldn't show up in a cursory inspection unless an armorer did it, and maybe not even then . . .
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:46 AM
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This thread goes against everything on the internet saying revolvers never fail. Does that mean I have to erase the internet and start all over?
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ki5mc View Post
I always take at least two pistols to my annual LEOSA qualification, and qualify with both.
Same here.

(One is specifically what I carry when visiting less permissive states with magazine capacity limits and such.)
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:05 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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This thread goes against everything on the internet saying revolvers never fail. Does that mean I have to erase the internet and start all over?
It's a nice thought, but probably not worth the effort. I've heard the revolvers don't fail thing for years and I've largely ignored it. While they are very reliable if well maintained they can experience malfunctions.

DA revolvers have complicated internals, and their basic design has it's own unique vulnerabilities, such as getting a grain of powder or a case under the ejector star, or potential timing issues. They also share some of the same issues as semi-autos such as light strikes.

If you think about it objectively there is not that much difference - revolvers also fail to feed, fail to eject and fail to fire - those failures just happen differently.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:11 AM
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Default Interesting...

...observation. But the fact is it was inspected by an armorer.

All the range personnel are cross trained as armorers, and they maintain parts for just about every modern gun. This is addressed each year at LEOSA quals, and they repair more than a few guns.

FYI, the facility is the Maryland Police and Corrections Training Commission. They are a terrific state organization doing LEO training from recruits to sniper school. All training for Maryland LEO's save the big cities that do their own and even those send personnel for certain advanced training.

Be safe.

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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Ah. Your troubles wouldn't show up in a cursory inspection unless an armorer did it, and maybe not even then . . .
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:22 AM
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Default Bingo!

Cool! That's my mark...inverted on my gun.

Appreciate the photo and info. BTW, mine is 60-2, also.

Be safe.

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Here is the stamping on my Model 60 NY-1. The little symbol I referred to is the one just left of NY-1 mark. It's upside down which I've seen them either way.
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Old 04-28-2018, 12:19 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
This thread goes against everything on the internet saying revolvers never fail.
They don't fail IF the owner knows how to work on and maintain them. Even then an actual parts failure is possible, so I guess not a definite. For all the "end users" though, yeah, they can fail due to a myriad of reasons.

Find a capable smith.

Last edited by iPac; 04-28-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
...

My M60, NY-1 failed to recycle the hammer properly and only functioned as it should about every 6th-7th pull. ...
Did the trigger fail to recover after being pulled (fail to return forward)?
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Old 04-28-2018, 02:57 PM
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Only revolver issue I ever had was the ejector rod loosing while shooting. Last time the range master fixed it he burgered it bad. But it's never come loose again. The department go rid of their revolver stuff.
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Old 04-28-2018, 02:58 PM
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Default Hmmmmmmm...

Was describing the problem telephonically to another ex-LEO and gun guy and he asked me the same question.

The trigger did recover at the range, but the hammer did not go back when the trigger was pulled on every pull.

Just a bit ago as I was explaining what happened I pulled the trigger multiple times and the gun seemed to function properly.

Now I am confused...and will be seeing a very experienced armorer on Tuesday or Wednesday. Sure hope the problem manifests when I see him...or he can take it apart and figure out what did occur.

Please do reply if anyone has an idea; will convey any/all info to the armorer. Thank you.

Note: Just in case you wonder if it was operator error, two different range personnel checked it immediately after I advised them of the problem. Same thing with them pulling the trigger.

Be safe.

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Did the trigger fail to recover after being pulled (fail to return forward)?

Last edited by The Big D; 04-28-2018 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 04-28-2018, 03:52 PM
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Sounds like the sear isn't returning to its proper position. Might be a broken spring. But with the problem coming and going, I'd bet its just gummed up inside and needs a good cleaning.
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
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I always take at least two pistols to my annual LEOSA qualification...
I always carried two guns over a police career that spanned four decades. As Clint always says, "Two is one, and one is none."
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Old 04-28-2018, 04:25 PM
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Let the S&W revolver armorer inspect it.

Presuming it's not a broken trigger or hammer stud (factory repair), he ought to be able to ID and address any minor issues (cleanliness or replacing/fitting a part).

It can be amazing how some accumulated debris and old congealed "lube" can restrict normal freedom of movement of small parts and springs inside revolvers.

Some folks think they're doing themselves a favor by spraying liquid cleaner/lubes inside assembled revolvers, but they fail to realize that sometimes liquids sprayed into openings can't as easily run out, and they may eventually solidify and harden in awkward spots.

When revolver armorers "lube" a revolver, with the yoke and sideplate removed, it involves a limited number of drops applied to specific spots and surfaces.
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:20 PM
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Sound like the double action fly is a stickin'...............


.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iPac View Post
They don't fail IF the owner knows how to work on and maintain them. Even then an actual parts failure is possible, so I guess not a definite. For all the "end users" though, yeah, they can fail due to a myriad of reasons.

Find a capable smith.
Ever turned on the lights inn a house to see if any bulls are burned out. Then the next time you turn on the lights bulbs go poof?

Gun parts can be like that too. One minute they work, the next minute not so much. I've seen too many brand new parts fail to believe otherwise.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:57 PM
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This thread goes against everything on the internet saying revolvers never fail. Does that mean I have to erase the internet and start all over?
No, but it's not a bad idea. :-)

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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Old 04-29-2018, 04:56 PM
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I cut my teeth on revolvers back in the 70's carried one my whole NYPD career. I've seen them break, I've seen them malfunction. Good thing we had excellent guys at the NYPD range to fix our problems and boo boos. A good qualified S&W armorer will fix you up and get your model 60 back up and running good as new. A couple of months ago my 686-3 had some issues, went to visit Frank Glenn, he had me back up and running in about 20 minutes. I'll work on my 1911s, but the inner guts of a revolver is like trying to read latin.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:58 PM
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Default I am rather embarrassed!

My M60, NY-1 was conveyed to a gunsmith who is S&W trained and maintains weapons for local PD's.

He made some 'adjustments' to the gun and tightened up things. (I am NOT a gun guy so he remarked in terms I can understand. )

But the major cause of the malfunction WAS OPERATOR ERROR. He told me the gun was very, very dirty with carbon and gunk in places that should have been cleaned better...much better. He cleaned it extremely well...including via ultrasound.

It is an understatement to say I am embarrassed. I submit this to show cleaning cannot be neglected and that is the responsibility of the operator. In this case, ME.

I will do better.

Be safe.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:49 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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You'd be surprised how often we all forget the simple stuff, especially as we get a little older. The best part (for most of us, you included I'm sure) is we won't let that happen again! Embarrassment is such a great teacher, ain't it?
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:55 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Originally Posted by The Big D View Post
The trigger did recover at the range, but the hammer did not go back when the trigger was pulled on every pull.
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Originally Posted by Grayfox View Post
Sounds like the sear isn't returning to its proper position. Might be a broken spring. But with the problem coming and going, I'd bet its just gummed up inside and needs a good cleaning.
Kieth44 "Sound like the double action fly is a stickin'..............."

Exactly what it sounds like to me also. Double action sear is sticking back after handing off the hammer on some cycles and because of that it does not always engage with the hammer. and cock it.

I bought a model 19-3 way under marked price at a pawn shop that did exactly the same thing. Picked up a small screw driver at same pawn shop. Drove to nearby auto parts house. Bought a can of carb cleaner, removed grips and sprayed and cycled for a bit and it started working fine. Scored a nice a 19-3 with target grips at a great price because of hardened oil/gunk.

This is a prime area for double action failure. The spring is very small as is the pivot point, the mating between the end of the double action sear and the hammer is very critical. It doesn't take much crud for the spring to be unable to preform its needed action. The hammer spring and the trigger return spring are much more robust. Unless either of these 2 have been replaced or adjusted to be very near minimum, they will over come some crud and do their job. The bolt spring isn't as large as either, but still way larger than DA sear spring, plus the has more tolerance on its pivot.

Crud in any fire arm action can cause a failure to function. Its amazing how many shooters regularly clean the bore and outside of their guns and then basically ignore the internals

Last edited by steelslaver; 05-27-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 05-27-2018, 06:50 AM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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This thread goes against everything on the internet saying revolvers never fail. Does that mean I have to erase the internet and start all over?
Yes.


. . . . . . . .
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:54 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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I recently picked up a real nice 19-5 , 4" nickel for a decent price . Before shooting it , I opened it up , removed most of the innards , cleaned , wiped dry , then lightly ( very lightly ) oiled only the necessary points . It was dry as popcorn inside when I opened it up . Looked like it had never seen a drop of oil . Regards , Paul
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:24 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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I bought my S&W model 10 in the summer of '86 from the NYPD equipment section, I regularly cleaned it, but it was a working gun, I bent the extractor rod, knocked it out of time and had a full lock up failure. It was no fault of the gun, my model 10 was a victim of circumstances. The gun was retired by me after 5 years when NYPD went to the Glock 19. Revolvers do fail, the more you use them, the more you abuse them, the faster it will happen. Regular services and cleaning goes a long way, but every thing has it's limits. There was a guy in my precinct that had so much jelly donut jelly and fried onions on his revolver when he pulled it out at the range, that they had to give him a loaner to qualify while the range staff soaked and cleaned his. Keep them clean, your life may depend on it.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:28 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Note: Shooting 80 +P rounds in a 642 is zero fun.
So, why shoot +P rounds? Is it a requirement?


Just for the record, I always bring a back up gun to anything important. I even had to use the back up once. Stuff happens and all mechanical things are subject to failure.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:55 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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I always take at least two pistols to my annual LEOSA qualification...
I once worked with a detective who was very slightly built, but he was a heck of a SHOOTER and a hard corps gun guy. He always carried three guns, and somehow managed to conceal them all on his slim person.

Although I always carried two, it wasn't the norm many moons ago. He was the only three gun packer that I knew of. Contrary to popular belief, lots of cops are not gun guys. Many officers thought I was strange, and that he was a little stranger. However, if any of those officers ever found themselves on a two way range, they would definitely want him there!
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:21 PM
M E Morrison M E Morrison is offline
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Originally Posted by SRT View Post
I once worked with a detective who was very slightly built, but he was a heck of a SHOOTER and a hard corps gun guy. He always carried three guns, and somehow managed to conceal them all on his slim person.

Although I always carried two, it wasn't the norm many moons ago. He was the only three gun packer that I knew of. Contrary to popular belief, lots of cops are not gun guys. Many officers thought I was strange, and that he was a little stranger. However, if any of those officers ever found themselves on a two way range, they would definitely want him there!

yep, that two way range changes a lot of minds !!!
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:45 PM
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UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem. UPDATE; Post 31. LEOSA quals...and BIG TIME problem.  
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Some folks think they're doing themselves a favor by spraying liquid cleaner/lubes inside assembled revolvers . . .
The number of forum members that believe this is the exact way to clean/lube a revolver is in the thousands, and they regularly post as such. I don't address each post, because I can't. When you do that to your revolver, you are inevitably approaching BigD's malfunction . . .
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:29 AM
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Default Not a requirement...

...but I shoot what I carry. No surprises that way.

Be safe.

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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
So, why shoot +P rounds? Is it a requirement?


Just for the record, I always bring a back up gun to anything important. I even had to use the back up once. Stuff happens and all mechanical things are subject to failure.
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