Guys I know this is a touchy subject. Let me start by saying YES I believe an AR-15 to offer advantages over a shotgun loaded with slugs for defense. Keep in mind I'm talking for outside the home defense. I do not use shotgun slugs for home defense due to too much penetration, I opt for 00 or #1 buckshot for that use.

But outside the home, typically in rural environments in use as a defensive truck gun, my Mossberg 590A1 is loaded with six Brenneke rifled slugs. I do not own an AR-15. I use the shotgun because:

-I'm intimately familiar with it. I enjoy shooting shotguns, I trust them, and have the most practice with them.

-I do not see the range or capacity advantages of an AR as huge benefits in the vast majority of justifiable civilian defensive shootings. I am aware of no such shootings that have extended beyond the 125 yard effective range of a shotgun slug. My shotgun wears a 6-shot sidesaddle if extra rounds are needed and I always have a sidearm with me.

-I appreciate the .73 caliber, 2,500 ft-lbs fight stopping potential of a rifled slug. Yes, I know the .223 is effective. But especially against light cover and auto glass, a Brenneke slug just performs very very well.

So that's my thinking. Inside I load my shotgun with buckshot. Outside the home I use slugs. Poor excuse for a defensive rifle? Probably. But I'm comfortable with it and proficient with it.

Anyone else like slugs for outside the home defense?

For outside-the-home defense? Seriously? No. I'm not gonna carry a loaded shotgun around with me everywhere I go.

Like maybe while grocery shopping? Somebody'd have the cops on me before I got out of the vegetable aisle.

That's what handguns and concealed carry are for.

With the full understanding of how much punch a slug has to me it defeats the advantage that a shotgun gives with shooting a pattern with shot.
There is a point where dead is dead be it by a .22 to a .73 hole.
A near miss with a slug would more than likely be a hit with shot.
Single projectile is rifle stuff, shots at a close moving target (me or the target moving) shotguns are king.

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Expert at not being an Expert.

Outside? How far can you see?
How far are other people you don’t want to harm?
If you got room to boom, you want a rifle.
If you are in a populated area, it’s a shotgun.
Probably with smaller buck.
Like no. 4. I have never ever actually shot any no.4 Buck. I grew up as a Double Ought Guy, it’s a hard habit to break!
I just noticed that the OP lives in Vegas.
OMG! Be careful! Don’t shoot Wayne Newton.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

The rifle has the advantage of being more quickly loaded with a magazine, compared to a shotgun requiring loading a tubular magazine. Today's rifled shotguns with saboted slugs have become legitimate 200 yard guns and if you're shooting people at that distance, I must seriously question exactly what is your justification, excluding the madman taking potshots at moving vehicles along the freeway.

Yes, your question may ignite some animated conversation but ultimately, it is your decision regarding what to use. Your preference for buckshot is a good one. For years, the Secret Service used #4 buck (27 pellets, each of .22 caliber, in a 2 3/4" 12 gauge shell.) Within a home, it probably won't matter much as pretty much any buckshot load, even #4 shot, will absolutely ruin the intruder's day.

I recently have been trying out the Brenneke slugs in a Shockwave. It was a learning experience.... different from low-recoil buck or target loads. Frankly, I was shooting Brennekkes accurately at 50 yards, but not planning to go to 100 yards.

My thought pattern was similar, however, with a Shockwave as a truck gun - handy size and effective against vehicles with the right slugs. Seems viable.

Prefer almost anything to a .223

The only thing that matters. Although I just don't see toting a long gun much of anywhere, unless you've got property big enough that you get the mail on horseback. Ditto for trying to use one inside a vehicle.

I think that the vehicle itself, as an escape tool, along with making good decisions, beats a long gun jammed behind the front seat any day.

I own a Mossberg 590 A1 and while I keep it loaded in the house with #4 Buck, there is nothing more fun than shooting at targets with slugs for recreation.

FYI my mossberg shockwave and 590 full size will put all 9 pellets of 00 buck on target at 25 yards.

Slugs are for hunting and stopping vehicles IMHO. With the new flite control buck shot, you have a platform that will reach out to 25 yards and say hello.

I think that fits the bill perfectly. How far away do you expect to have confrontations? Outside of 25 yards you may have a hard time explaining why you did what you did.

I will stick to my shotguns both inside and outside the home. The new shockwave is perfect for that.

Not my photo but you get the point:

I have said many times on here my primary gun is a Mossie 12 gauge 9 shot, loaded to first fire 5 00 buck and then 4 slugs.

Bears and moose are very probable up here. So I sure as heck trust slugs Vs 223 for (some outside use). Lets say I have a reason to go out armed with a long gun and its a rouge bear, my MO is to empty the 5 OO buck shooting mostly for the face area and then put slugs in the bears boiler room if still needed.

I learned to shoot skeet with pump guns and learned early on to fire and pump basically as a continues motion. I could use the buck fast and have the nastier slugs up real fast if needed.

The Mossie is a house gun as we are rural, way away from the population centers and LEO patrols could easily be 20 minuets or more assuming we could get a message out. (no cell service, and if our ll phone is down for any reason we are on our own!
As said its a house gun but very comforting if going outside so armed!

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

For " self defense", which means short range, shotgun with a
Buck Shot load is practical. Better than a AR type weapon. For
some kind of gunfight at 100 yds + a rifle would be the smarter
choice, by far. It is hard for me to see a self defense situation
where a shotgun slug would be practical. Self Defense is a
reaction, at short range. In the fog of this buck shot will make
up for a near miss and at point blank range will be as effective
as a slug. I think there is to much over thinking on self defense
weapons & ammo. In the end any gun is better than no gun.

The 7.62x39 AR.

Attached Images

20180514_092125.jpg (49.6 KB, 28 views)

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Certified Curmudgeon

Sounds good to me, JayFramer, but I don't think you are going to get accurate shots to 125 yards. Test/practice to determine what you can do reliably.

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I've still got it made.

I will take carbine AR over a shotgun every time. Just for the ease of shooting if nothing else, follow up shots are much easier.

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K & N S&W revolvers

I carry a .38 snubby, everywhere, because of the light weight and ease of carry. I lie in a peaceful rural area. I do sometimes camp/trout fish, in black bear country. When I do I usually have a .44 Magnum, and a 30-30 carbine with 200gr Federal Fussion. I've never had a problem with bear, and don't expect I will. I trust the average bear far more than the average person with their pants worn too low. But the weapons are ones I own and I am comfortable with, and confident with. I also have a AR, and a shotgun. My shotgun is a 28" barrel, and I feel better about a .308 size bullet then a .224 if black bear were to get too friendly. Understanding that the noise of a gun itself is usually enough for them.

Bad guy has your loved one, arm across the loved one's neck, knife at the throat, or gun to their head. Only partial of bad guy's head is open to a shot. Feel comfortable making that shot with an AR or buck shot?

I have both a 20" 590 Mossberg (9 shot) AND an AR. I guarantee, the AR is easier to move in close quarters inside with. Additionally, with the TAP rounds it is loaded with, for home defense inside, I don't have to worry about interior wall penetration, or even penetration into the neighbor's house, 10 feet away on one side.

...Hickok45 at 230 yards...smoothbore slugs...

...fast forward to 7:30 or 10:00 if you want the results without watching it all...

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A Country Boy Can Survive

As some others have said I don't know at what range calling it a defensive shoot the cops and the courts draw the line.
In today's environment on guns I'd still defend my familie's lives but if hard cover was available and the problem is a ways off I'd wait to shoot till they were unquestionably a threat.

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Expert at not being an Expert.

This thread has gone to taking sniper shots now?

I get it , and I agree.
I'm a shotgun guy as well, been toting one for over 40 years.
Ithaca Model 37 & 51 / Mossberg 500's
Taught by my gramps...they are very versatile , efficient and they are flat out for to shoot. Paper , waterjugs , produce , just about any & everything

outside the home or personal defense.....with slugs....
only for the 4 legged predators, not the 2 legged kind.

I have an Ithaca Model 37. I cannot imagine toting it around unless I am in dangerous forests somewhere. Same for a Shockwave. Concealed handguns are what I see as the best outside of the house defense - even in my car I'd rather be reaching for an easy to maneuver handgun than any long arm, including these new shorty shotguns. YMMV.

So you don't think someone taking a family member into their grasp in a home invasion situation is possible? You need to wake up.

Can you cite situations where this was used by a civilian in defense of their family? I will probably win the lotto before that happens. But good luck with your sniper shot.

And I hope it never happens to a family member or loved one of yours, and all you have is useless buckshot.

What if they grab two or three then what?

I can cite situations where a civilian ended a threat with buckshot.

I would definitely be interested in your citations were a civilian Ended a threat with a sniper shot to the head while a family member was being held by a home invader.


And please google San Diego officer shoots hostage taker with shotgun to see how useless buckshot is at close range in the proper hands.

I used to tell my officers that their handgun was there best defense in a firefight. They could use it to keep the other guy's head down while they retreated to the squad and got a real gun!

San Diego Cop Drops Hostage Taker With Shotgun Blast To The Face

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A Country Boy Can Survive

I think that if the OP is familiar with his shotgun then it makes a great truck gun. I keep a long gun in all my vehicles. I have a 590 in the truck. Is it the best or most accurate gun I own? No but I know it pretty well and it is a lot cheaper to replace if it gets stolen.

So my next door neighbor is a Captain in our fire department. He is close to retiring. One day I noticed that he had a shotgun in his truck. I asked why. He told me that if I had seen what he has seen in his career, I would have shotgun in truck also. So there you go.

Wow, very cool.

As far as shooting hostages with a shotgun... the Federal Flite Control loads I use inside can keep all pellets, and the wadding, inside a golf ball sized group at the longest distance inside my home. Not saying I'd take the shot, not saying I think such a scenario is likely, just saying the size of the pattern would simply not be an issue.

If a perp is more than a few yards away it's going to be hard to plead that it was 'defense'.

An AR-15 would have a STRONG tendency to overpenetrate and hit something behind the perp.

If you are confident with it, and it sounds like you are, I don't think anybody can argue with a slug that is an ounce or lead, or greater, going about 1000 ft/sec.

If that's what you prefer and it's practical for the kind of situations you may get into, knock yourself out.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

An AR (or shotgun) is prob too much gun if someone breaks into your apartment on 154th street. But not if someone breaks into the apartment over the garage on your 154 acres, an hour from the closest LEO.

Lots of things are VERY situationally dependent.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Fail to see how a shottie with buckshot helps that. But, I know I have a better chance of quick follow up shots with the AR's negligible kick and muszzle rise (compared to a 12 gauge)

And yet, you haven't. You have cited (said go google) about an LEO. But, it isn't just ending a 'threat'. I can cite multiple incidences of AR wielders ending a threat in their home as well. I was talking ending a human shield situation in the home. Please cite all the times a shotgun with buck shot accomplished that.

i.e.
Um, you keep using the term sniper shot. I haven't. I for one, wouldn't want to hit just an intruder's head, with buckshot, with a loved one being used as a human shield. That is far from a sniper shot. But, I KNOW I can put 1 into that head, with no chance of collateral damage with an AR. SO please stop conflating it as a 'sniper shot'

Well, we have Mr Wileford who stopped the Texas Church shooting, using his AR to make an actual 'sniper shot', between the body armor.
Texas Hero: I Couldn't Have Stopped Mass Shooter Without My AR-15

Not using TAP rounds.

Let me bring up a subject that's getting ignored: recoil.
This, it's effect on shot placement and ease of use are probably the major reasons the AR pattern patrol rifle is replacing the shotgun in many agencies. The same factors are in play in non-LE situations.

Back in the day I used to hear large strong guys whine when it came time for shotgun qualification. I have to admit as I got older, I got less enthusiastic about shotgun recoil myself. You don't see folks (by and large) whining about recoil with a .223/5.56 mm. If you got a pump gun about the same time you got adult teeth and still enjoy shooting it, by all means have at it. Please just realize it's not the answer for everyone.

Over penetration of a felon isn't a major issue using many of the 40-55 gr bullets available in .223/5.56 mm. If we're talking about building material, FBI testing indicated that those loads generally penetrated less than duty type pistol ammunition. That doesn't mean either are an ideal answer if you miss your targets.

Yes, the AR-or other rifle- opens another possible avenue of attack by legal buzzards. You can counter this with LE types who can articulate why they use them (Choose carefully, reading between the lines of a local Chiefs answer to the local paper about his departments change seemed to be that the change made him feel more manly.) You do have to survive the incident for this to matter.

Please come back down to reality. There are many factors involved in taking a shot with somebody as a hostage. It is a sniper shot.

I feel like this is turning into one of those fantasy SHTF discussions. I could come up with 1000 fantasyland scenarios where the shotgun and the ar-15 are not going to do the job. But I don’t like ridiculous conversations.

Guys I knew l shouldn't have posted this thread. I didn't think this was a "ridiculous conversation" but judging how someone gave it a 1-star rating I can only surmise my own stupidity is to blame. I only wanted to start a dialogue on my thoughts. I should have known better... sorry.

-Jay

about a 50 / 50 chance any thread posted will start a tinkle fight among the masses.
remember it's not your fault those guys aren't as smart as me!

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Expert at not being an Expert.

Your question was perfectly legit... it just went south with crazy high odds situations to justify why something was useless.

Honestly whatever you re comfortable with. I don't use slugs.

If I feel the need for slugs I will grab a rifle. But for home defense in low light situations it is hard to beat a shotgun with 8-9 .30 caliber pellets. I think it is still the best civilian defense weapon made.

Your truck gun is completely suitable and I would not sweat it. I live rural where you can see for miles.... still use buckshot. (But I have two slugs on the sling)

I know...

Let's have a spelling contest!

I'll have to settle for making less bad guys more deader.

These are rare enough that I can only think of one. A woman shot an intruder who was grappling with her boyfriend. But it wasn't a "hostage" situation.

What you are literally describing is something that I've never heard of it happening. In fact, I can't think of a single reputable national instructor that even suggests training on "hostage" targets.

Carbines aren't bad choices in a lot of places. It's a lot easier to carry significant reloads for a carbine than a shotgun. But fancying that all other choices are irrelevant because :recision:: is well into mall-ninja territory.

Well, you either have ice water in your veins, or your loved ones aren't all that beloved.

Don't think like that. It's a good thread, for the most part, and brings out some really good comments. Some folks may have some pretty "way out" ideas, to my thinking, but they have a right to post them (I guess ).

When I start a thread, I have two rules I follow:
1) You can't control what direction the thread will take, so sit back and enjoy it.
2) You don't have to read every kooky idea that gets posted in your thread.

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You're shy a few manners.

I had the option to carry an AR during my career and never bothered. I used an MP5/10mm for most of my time, but when they started calling them back in I went to a 14” 870 with slugs.

I worked two shootings with 12 gauge slugs. One was a fed who shot a guy in a car. The slug went in just under the left armpit and came out just above the belt line on the other side, carrying that dude’s life with it. Pretty impressive.

The other turned out to be a suicide. Mossberg Cruiser under the chin following an argument with the missus. Small bedroom. I couldn’t have put a paper plate on any of the four walls or ceiling without covering some portion of his formerly attached head. That was actually part of the determination of suicide - had someone else stuck the gun under his chin and done the deed there would have been a void in the new paint job.

The power of a 12 gauge slug puts it in a league of its own. Carry what you want. I’m a retired (mostly) duffer now, but when I travel I toss a 12 gauge pump full of slugs in my rig.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

How has this horse survived all the beatings it has taken?

As pointed out above these threads have lives of their own. I am frequently amazed with where they end up. What you are hoping for is some other perspectives on the topic.

A lot of people prefer an AR to a shotgun. I will not leave a $1000 rifle in a vehicle. But I have a friend who is wealthy and sees no issue with it. A lot of people carried an AR in the military. I did not. When I was a youth, I carried a Model 12 Winchester in eastern NC while deer, dove and rabbit hunting. So to me a 12 gauge pump makes a lot of sense.

There are scenarios were one is better than the other without a
doubt. One may be better because of were you live. It's the old
apples to oranges.

Jay,

All of the noise aside - Yes, I keep a 18" barrel Winchester Stainless Police (rifle sights) in the truck with me when I am 'out and about'.

I do vary the load based on where I am going, but most frequently I have #4 Buck as the first round, 00 Buck rounds 2 through 5, and two 1oz slugs at the end.

My rationale - If I needed to use it indoors or up close, the #4 Buck is going to get the job done on most things (ask the Secret Service if you doubt the #4). If the first round doesn't handle the situation, then 4 of the 00 Buck should cure any goblins of the desire to molest me. Now if the #4 and the 00 doesn't do the trick, then the last two are slugs. I figure that if it came down to it, they would tear through a truck body and/or any living thing in their path. I also believe that if needed, there is less negative opinion regarding shotguns vs the AR platforms.

I don't carry it loaded with slugs alone, that is for target practice only. Most of the shots that need precision also include distance, and I have a 30-06 for those things.

At home, the shotgun is for outside disturbances, or as a HD gun for my wife. I prefer my EDC for in the house duties, and she can back me up with the shotgun if things are really bad.

Don't let the internet trolls get you down, there are a lot of folks here who can answer a question without contorting the discussion to meet their needs.

Take care

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On the Oak Savannah

This has been an interesting thread. In my defensive battery , like many of you I suspect, I have both shotguns and rifles. They are both ready and available for what ever task would be best served. A semi auto short barreled 11/87 police model with a surefire light is first up. If the problem is outside , the carbine is available but the cell phone is used first. Even as a young man on a metro pd many , many years ago we carried both 12 ga pump guns and M1/M2 carbines in most of the cars and could take what ever was the best for the task at hand. It worked then and I would say would work today. Again, I always like hearing other opinions and would suggest that there are no perfect answers. All my very best, Joe.

Yep; there are round that penetrate to distances very similar to good handgun rounds. With a good load overpenetration isn't much more than a myth.

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K & N S&W revolvers