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Old 05-19-2018, 06:52 PM
JayFramer JayFramer is offline
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Default Single Action Revolvers for Defense?

DISCLAIMER: This is another one of my seemingly endless parade of threads on various defense topics. I apologize in advance if you think this is stupid or that I am an idiot. This is more or less for my own curiosity and I just enjoy reading your replies and hopefully gaining some knowledge from the folks here at the S&W forum. Thanks for putting up with my nonsense.

So I have recently purchase a Ruger's New Model Blackhawk single-action revolver in .45 Colt. I got to thinking that if for some reason I was caught out when shooting the gun or if it was the only gun I had available to me at any given time, that I might need to deploy the gun in a self defense role against human attackers. Here is Lost Wages the threat from most animals is very low. The threat from bipedal animals is unfortunatly not.

Then I got to thinking about cowboy action shooters and the things they can do with their revolvers. Quite impressive. Some further reading showed that the famous Gunsite Academy in Arizona now offers a single action revolver defensive shooting course. More things to chew on.

This is a fun gun for me, but potentially another tool in the toolbox for more serious purposes if pressed. It's something I'd have to work on and research and I intend to with time. I certainly have other, more modern weapons that I'd reach for first but if it was all I'd have I would want to have some basic shooting and reloading skills down specific to its operation.

What do you guys have to say on the subject? Anyone pack an old single action or employ one in the self/home defense role? Again, not implying anything, just looking to strike up some conversation on a topic I've been thinking about. Please share.

-Jay
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:59 PM
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I carried a Blackhawk 44 mag for many years for four legged predators. I would not have hesitated one second two use it against two legged ones either.

The first rule is to have a gun. The second is to be proficient with it. Not much matters after that.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:06 PM
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I will sometimes carry this New Vaquero .45 Colt with smooth elkhorn grips. Why not? I really can't think of a realistic situation that couldn't be handled with 6 rounds of .45 Colt.

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Old 05-19-2018, 07:06 PM
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Your post reminded me of an instance back about, well it was in 1992. A lady that I knew, called me up. She had been harassed by an ex, and had went to a Gun Store; told ‘em she wanted something for home protection.
She had two teenage daughters at the time. The guy sold her a Blackhawk. Told her it was the safest gun out.
After she got home with it, she loaded it and while she and her daughters were looking it over, she thumbed the hammer back and didn’t know how to get it down. I told her to keep her finger away from the trigger and keep it pointing in a safe direction and I’d be right over.
About fifteen minutes later I get there and she’s sitting there with it scared stiff. I got ahold of it and showed her how to decock it and then unloaded it.
Showed her how to handle it then, unloaded.
Later I traded her a S&W 65, for it and eventually sold it off.
Didn’t mean to hijack your post.


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Old 05-19-2018, 07:06 PM
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Yes it would work if that was all you had. But why? There's no advantage over a DA revolver and several disadvantages.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:42 PM
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One advantage is if a perp took it from you and had no clue how to use it. Sort of like perps stealing manual transmission vehicle and not knowing how to drive it. Or using Windows 98, because there are no viruses for it anymore.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:50 PM
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If you live in a state with open carry, a single action might be a pretty good visual disincentive to a potential perpetrator.
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Old 05-19-2018, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richbuff View Post
One advantage is if a perp took it from you and had no clue how to use it. Sort of like perps stealing manual transmission vehicle and not knowing how to drive it. Or using Windows 98, because there are no viruses for it anymore.
So you now have nothing and at the very least the perp has a heavy piece of metal to smash your skull in with. Not something I'd count on to save my a** in a bad situation.

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Old 05-19-2018, 08:12 PM
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A single action certainly can be used for self-defense. Let's face it, it was the self-defense tool of choice for decades. But that was when the bad guy also had a single action. There are certainly better choices.

Even so, if you want to, by all means use it. Just be sure to practice with it. I have a couple of single action revolvers. When I go to the range I practice controlled pairs with them just like every other gun. I can shoot controlled pairs just about as fast with the single action guns as I can with other types. It is just a little slower. Of course I haven't practiced as much with those.

Semi-auto pistols are easier to conceal. They hold more ammo and are definitely faster to shoot and reload. These are the main reasons to pick them for self-defense.

Double action revolvers are not necessarily faster to shoot than single action revolvers. They are faster to reload though. However, if you do your tactical reloads, you can keep the gun topped off fairly easily.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:34 PM
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I'm not meaning to outright disagree with anybody here but I think Jerry Miculek and Ed McGivern might when told semis and single actions shoot faster than double action revolvers.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:46 PM
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If all I've got is a single action I don't feel disarmed,
but I'd take a double action or a semi auto as my 1st choices.
I don't know if it made loading any faster but I remember someone using a 1911 mag to strip out shells to load a Ruger 45 convertible with the ACP cylinder in it.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:48 PM
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Default Even if I practiced.....

SD is too serious to try to be 'cool'. If you can shoot a single action gun with repeat back up shots as fast as a double action, knock yourself out.

To me getting the hammer cocked is just one place where I can't afford to lose tiem.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:51 PM
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I had a Ruger single action .357 in bright stainless but the grip angle did not work for me. Even w/standard .38 the thing would twist in my hand and I had to reaquire my grip. Magnum loads were even worse so I eventually let it go. Real shame b/c it was a beautiful six-gun.
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Old 05-19-2018, 08:56 PM
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If it shoots and goes "bang" it will work. When most people think of single actions, they think of cowboy guns. I wouldn't want to have to use a single action for the same reason I wouldn't want to fire my DA revolver in single action mode in a self defense situation: too much chance of unintended discharge. I like the deliberate action necessary with a DA revolver.
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
SD is too serious to try to be 'cool'. If you can shoot a single action gun with repeat back up shots as fast as a double action, knock yourself out.

To me getting the hammer cocked is just one place where I can't afford to lose tiem.
Groo here
The point is that you DON'T shoot a single action like other guns.
First , an SA is very "pointable" if held correctly.[most SD shooting is at pointing ranges]
Second,they are quit powerful [for a handgun] as a 357 is "small".
They can be very safe as they remain uncocked till needed[that schooling thing again.
They are a one-handed gun[ the other might be busy- wife /kids dog/horse
So you have a onehanded gun that you place the FIRST round in the middle, then see if another is needed.
See the english bulldog revolvers, [ps the Fuzzy Wuzzy's took drugs]
I am comming to the realization that we are teaching/being taught
not to "stop"[end of threating action] but to "terminate"[shoot till their down /till its empty]
The single action grip allows me to shoot more powerful rounds
[isn't that a good thing?] with out pain, the trigger allows called shots[in the middle] the big hammer tells me is it is cocked/or cock it .
The low round count forces me to conserve [the more you shoot the more you can miss cops hit 20 to 30% CCWs hit 30 to 40%]
AND its NOT plastic ,ammo sensative , OR BLACK[ That might scare
the 12 peoples you want on your side!!!!!!]
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:38 PM
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Good points. I will give it to you that a single action makes a better one handed shooter than most.
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Old 05-19-2018, 09:55 PM
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I picked up a 4 5/8" Blackhawk in .41mag a few months ago. I plan to carry when hunting/scouting for deer or just roaming the great outdoors.
It's a cool gun, very accurate and .41mag will handle anything I'll meet in my hunting grounds.
Of course it's not the best choice for self defense...but I don't feel unarmed with it and probably won't carry another gun if I have that on me.
Having an accurate/powerful gun with me and the mindset to use it when needed should be enough.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richbuff View Post
One advantage is if a perp took it from you and had no clue how to use it. Sort of like perps stealing manual transmission vehicle and not knowing how to drive it. Or using Windows 98, because there are no viruses for it anymore.
If he's seen even one cowboy movie I think he will figure it out.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groo01 View Post
...I am comming to the realization that we are teaching/being taught
not to "stop"[end of threating action] but to "terminate"[shoot till their down /till its empty...
Once upon a time the Police were the Police, and the Military was the Military. Both were well trained professionals who did the job assigned to them exceedingly well.

But then someone decided the Police should adopt Military weapons and tactics. And I will even personally agree that there is a place for Special Services.

But Military work is different from Police work which is different from a Civilian acting in self defence.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:16 PM
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I think an SA revolver for self defense would be ok as long as Festus was backing me up with the sawed off shotgun.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:19 PM
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The problem is that they don't do anything that other stuff doesn't do better. Mostly. I'll get to that later. Some of the other stuff that's been said is bizarre.

Single-actions aren't any more pointable than any other handgun with the right grip and technique. Tell you the truth, point-shooting just isn't that hard once you understand the basics of it. If you take the gun in your hand, point at your target, and don't find it pointing at what you wanted, the problem is not the pistol. It's your big dumb hand.

Any advantage in safety is lost once you realize that if you have to actually use the thing, and cock it, you now have to carefully lower the hammer, under stress, in order to re-holster. To say nothing of how cocking complicates a surreptitious draw.

They're not any more one-handed than any other handgun. That's why they're called "handguns" and not "handsguns". About the only thing you could say is that they're more ambidextrous than a pistol that has a non-ambidextrous safety. And there are way too many handguns without manual safeties to make single-actions worth looking at.

There is no advantage to having less rounds. I have no idea why people think that having a lower-capacity handgun, or one with a lower practical rate of fire, magically makes them better marksmen and grants their bullets the power of the mythical "one-shot stop". If you can't hit water falling out of a boat, a smaller magazine or a six-shooter isn't going to fix the fact that you suck.

More powerful chamberings might be a thing. Until you read Greg Ellifritz's fine work. .380 ACP, over 85 cases, averaged 1.76 rounds to incapacitation, a 44% one-shot stop percentage, a 62% one-shot stop percentage from torso and head hits, and a 16% failure-to-stop percentage. .44 Magnum, over 24 cases, averaged 1.71 rounds to incapacitation, a 59% one-shot top percentage, a 53% one-shot stop percentage from torso and head hits, and a 13% failure-to-stop percentage.

Simply stated, it's not what you throw, it's where you put it.

Can a single-action revolver be as fast as a double? Sure, with a lot of practice. And by the time you're as fast with a single-action as an average decently-practiced DA revolver shooter, you could be a real ace with a DA sixgun or a pistol.

And last, pretty much any gun you can buy today is going to shoot any silly garbage ammo you decide to feed it. Ditto for polymer guns, which are tough enough to survive impacts that their operators wouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostaro
picked up a 4 5/8" Blackhawk in .41mag a few months ago. I plan to carry when hunting/scouting for deer or just roaming the great outdoors.
It's a cool gun, very accurate and .41mag will handle anything I'll meet in my hunting grounds.
Of course it's not the best choice for self defense...but I don't feel unarmed with it and probably won't carry another gun if I have that on me.
Having an accurate/powerful gun with me and the mindset to use it when needed should be enough.
Good for you. Go for it. I'm not even being sarcastic, that gun is right up your alley. By the time you get to an automatic that's on-par with the .41 Magnum, it's going to be exotic and abusive to shoot, or not quite up to the power level of the .41...and abusive to shoot.

Sure, you could get a DA revolver in .41 Mag. I even here there's a company in Massachusetts that used to make one . But getting one would be rather expensive. I sure wouldn't wanna drag a .41 S&W through the woods.

Maybe a Redhawk...except the Redhawk's single-action pull is known to be heavy (it uses a single spring in place of an S&W's independent hammer spring and trigger return spring).

So yeah. Perfect gun, perfect cartridge, perfect situation. Although I would have also accepted ".45 Colt". By the time you get to .44s, though, you can get a 629 for not a lot more than a Blackhawk.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:39 PM
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When I travel the 8 miles into the Town of Prescott Arizona, I see a lot of single action revolvers on belts being carried. While I personally feel more comfortable with my concealed Glock 19 or Springfield Pro, The cowboys around here look pretty defended with their choice of side arm. I've never walked down Whiskey Row in Prescott day or night without seeing someone with a SAA in a cowboy belt and holster. I guess it works for them out here in the west.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:43 PM
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So far I have heard one good reason for choosing single actions for self defense and it's not in this thread. Back in the 1980s a retired friend spent a lot of time knocking about and prospecting in rural areas of other states. He traveled with two primed stainless Ruger Old Armys. He figured, probably correctly, that it was unlikely a county deputy would bother an old geezer over muzzle loaders. However, out of state concealed carry permits have eliminated his need.

In case you wonder about their safety, at rest their solid hammer nose drops into slots between chambers. That gives them a one round advantage over old single actions which they equal in power.
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Old 05-20-2018, 01:18 AM
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Would I choose one for SD? No. Could I effectively use one for SD? Oh yeah!

I grew up shooting my dad's Ruger BH .41 Magnum. Shooting a SA is very natural to me. However, I wouldn't choose one for that purpose.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:45 AM
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He traveled with two primed stainless Ruger Old Armys. He figured, probably correctly, that it was unlikely a county deputy would bother an old geezer over muzzle loaders.
I kind've want a cap-and-ball, actually. A couple dudes brought theirs to a little funtimes shoot once, and the sound of that black powder going off was incredible. Not to mention the huge clouds of smoke.
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
DISCLAIMER: This is another one of my seemingly endless parade of threads on various defense topics. I apologize in advance if you think this is stupid or that I am an idiot. This is more or less for my own curiosity and I just enjoy reading your replies and hopefully gaining some knowledge from the folks here at the S&W forum. Thanks for putting up with my nonsense.

So I have recently purchase a Ruger's New Model Blackhawk single-action revolver in .45 Colt. I got to thinking that if for some reason I was caught out when shooting the gun or if it was the only gun I had available to me at any given time, that I might need to deploy the gun in a self defense role against human attackers. Here is Lost Wages the threat from most animals is very low. The threat from bipedal animals is unfortunatly not.

Then I got to thinking about cowboy action shooters and the things they can do with their revolvers. Quite impressive. Some further reading showed that the famous Gunsite Academy in Arizona now offers a single action revolver defensive shooting course. More things to chew on.

This is a fun gun for me, but potentially another tool in the toolbox for more serious purposes if pressed. It's something I'd have to work on and research and I intend to with time. I certainly have other, more modern weapons that I'd reach for first but if it was all I'd have I would want to have some basic shooting and reloading skills down specific to its operation.

What do you guys have to say on the subject? Anyone pack an old single action or employ one in the self/home defense role? Again, not implying anything, just looking to strike up some conversation on a topic I've been thinking about. Please share.

-Jay
If you are where you can carry in the Desert, Woods or Mountains for defense against dangerous Animals and do not need to conceal it, then it makes an excellent gun in the 45 Colt caliber. You might look into Buffalo Bore .45 Colt loadings! Of course reloading is slow, but I'm sure you realize that already.

As far as SD - concealed carry goes for two legged Animals, it would certainly not be my first choice as it is very heavy, very bulky, very large, slow to reload and quite cumbersome. IMO best as a fun gun at the Range or in the wilderness. Of course if you practiced enough you could get pretty good at reloading - but again, not the best for SD other than the Caliber of course which is excellent!

Last edited by chief38; 05-20-2018 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:32 AM
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If a Colt or Ruger-pattern SA revolver is all you had, and you practice with it, you would be fine.

Note the statistic quoted above - less than two rounds fired (with .380 or .44 Magnum!) until mission accomplished, in the fairly rare instance a handgun has to be used at all. That would mean 3-4 rounds left, not to mention the J frame you'd likely be carrying as a backup.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:14 AM
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Nothing wrong w/a single action revolver but I don’t currently own one or plan to. I’m still a double action revolver guy that survived three deadly force encounters w/my issued .38, but if I knew I was going to be in a gunfight I’d take my Glock 17. IMHO auto loaders are tactically superior in a real life fight and that’s why our military & police carry them.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:24 AM
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While I agree that single action revolvers are better than 'no firearm', I would not consider them an ideal self-defense gun. Yes, I own quite a few three screw Blackhawks and Colt/S&W replicas before someone starts to question.

You cannot guarantee that you will not be in the middle of a grappling match when you need to operate that revolver. Fewer steps in operation, and the fact that you don't have to break your firing grip to operate the revolver is what makes DA superior. Believing that all bad-guys will square off to you before they pounce, leaving you with enough time to give them a Clint Eastwood eye as you skin your smoke wagon is something that is best suited for Hollywood.

I'm also not concerned about the fact that most encounters are over in a couple of shots, I'm concerned again about being able to get off those shots while someone is grabbing at my firearm hand, slashing at me with a knife etc...
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Old 05-20-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ExRanger714 View Post
I'm not meaning to outright disagree with anybody here but I think Jerry Miculek and Ed McGivern might when told semis and single actions shoot faster than double action revolvers.
And Bob Munden was faster than them.

Of course we can find exceptions to every rule. There is always someone faster, that's not the point. Like I said, it CAN be faster. Not faster for most normal people like those of us here, but it can be very fast.

The one aspect that is not in question is reloading. Any revolver with a swing out cylinder is faster to reload. I've never seen one, but I've heard that there is a single action revolver with a swing out cylinder.
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:06 PM
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Food for thought: In some liberal states, cocking the hammer may be construed as premeditated, even in a SD situation.
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:12 PM
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I carry a 4 5/8 barreled SBH 44 mag. quite a bit. I don't feel under gunned!
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:21 PM
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Not my first choice..........

Not my second choice...............


does rank above ; knife,baseball bat, rock or sharp stick..... to name a few!!!




Heck with the number of folks here who don't carry a reload for their auto or DA revolver........... 6 rounds of .45 colt,.44 special or .44 or .357 magnum seems GTG
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:35 PM
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[...] The one aspect that is not in question is reloading. Any revolver with a swing out cylinder is faster [than a single action] to reload. [...]
Let's bring that into question. 19 Century automatic ejecting single action top break revolvers are faster to reload than S&W hand ejectors. Yes, speed loaders were made for them. However, I doubt their early speed loaders could keep up with full moon clips.
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Old 05-20-2018, 04:52 PM
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...I doubt their early speed loaders could keep up with full moon clips.
You'll get no argument from me. I didn't differentiate between moon clips and speed loaders. However, moon clips are faster. I've seen a revolver shooter, starting from the holster, actually get two shots on target and reload faster than a guy with an auto loader. The auto loader guy was no slouch either. It was really fun to watch.
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Old 05-20-2018, 05:12 PM
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Years ago when I was "playing cowboy," the 24,000-acre ranch where we worked was situated in rough, remote, mountainous, heavily timbered country. It was also heavily populated with black bear and mountain lions that had absolutely no reservations about taking down a young calf. Our foreman wanted us all carrying sidearms and he preferred that we carry single-actions. Why? His reasoning was that if a single-action got a little dirty, it would still function. I wasn't going to argue. He was the boss.

Years later, when I was leading a pack string into designated wilderness areas, I always packed a single-action Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .45 Colt, loaded with some heavy duty rounds...usually 240-grain semi-jacketed hollow cavities traveling around 950 fps. Carried that for over 20 years. Why? Probably for the same reason. I guess old habits die hard.

When I shot SASS for several years, I learned to fire a single-action revolver pretty darned quickly, using my offhand thumb to do the cocking.

Sure, we'll always have the argument that semi-autos will fire faster. Our SASS group went up against the local police department in a shooting match...the cowboys using single-actions and the cops using semi-autos. Believe it or not, the cowboys won, not only in speed, but in accuracy...not just once, but several times.

Do I personally carry a single-action for self defense? No, but when "push comes to shove," if somebody feels comfortable using a single-action for self-defense, or if that's the only handgun they have available to them, they certainly could do worse.

Just my view from the saddle.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:43 PM
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...when I was leading a pack string into designated wilderness areas, I always packed a single-action Ruger Blackhawk chambered in .45 Colt, loaded with some heavy duty rounds...usually 240-grain semi-jacketed hollow cavities traveling around 950 fps.
That's an excellent round in .45 Colt, very accurate out of the right gun...and the Old Model Ruger Blackhawk is the right gun. I have two boxes of it in the cabinet right now.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:59 PM
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If an SA is what you've got, train with it, get proficient. Beats a pocket full of stones.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:27 PM
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About the only time it would make sense to me is if you are shooting a bunch of cowboy action stuff. Then the training factor may make it a more viable choice.

I can't really see any advantage otherwise.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:21 PM
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I use a single action super Blackhawk in 44 mag with 240 grain thumpers walking up pigs and have managed on more than one occasion to bring down three with three or four shots being taken. Pigs are at least as fast as most bad guys. The AR guys don’t do any better,so I feel pretty safe with my single actions. Not easy to conceal carry though!
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:18 PM
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I shot a Ruger SBH 44 mag for 20 years in metallic sil., shooting to two hundred yards. I have hunted with that SA and a 45LC since the 80’s, an accounted for quite a few deer with them. Professionally I carried DA revolvers for 15 years and auto loaders for 20.
A SA would not be my first choice as a defensive handgun. But I have been afield with one many times and if push came to shove I would not feel handicapped with any of my SA’s or the loads I carry in them.

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Old 05-20-2018, 11:07 PM
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I can shoot my revolvers in either mode. If someone is creeping toward me and I'm hoping that they would go away, I'd cock my gun to stand ready. Most SD situations aren't in slow mo and a hammer is something to manipulate in addition.

Now a semi, I'd like to have an SA gun.
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Old 05-20-2018, 11:52 PM
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S Mulepacker said

"Sure, we'll always have the argument that semi-autos will fire faster. Our SASS group went up against the local police department in a shooting match...the cowboys using single-actions and the cops using semi-autos. Believe it or not, the cowboys won, not only in speed, but in accuracy...not just once, but several times. "

Reminds me of a time I attended a combat shotgun day attached to a week of Firearm Instructor School, the two guys I came with and myself were there with our department issued Stevens 311s, the tacticool guys, came with a variety of semi autos & pumps, same outcome, plus we showed them what "volley fire" meant.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:14 AM
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Hey, it worked OK for Shane...
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:11 AM
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Food for thought: In some liberal states, cocking the hammer may be construed as premeditated, even in a SD situation.
I just noticed the "liberal state" qualification. However, JDs with prejudices/missions aren't limited to those locations. Cocking a single action is similar to racking a round with any long gun kept in cruiser ready (chamber empty, hammer down). Put in that perspective, you may be in a better legal position. Note the "may". In the deep south, I expect it would be regarded as "commencin' t' prepare t' git ready t' go".

"Provocation" is another matter, but the same similarity (may) work there too. I'll let the real JDs here weigh in on this stuff

Practice is the key to use of a SA (or any handgun) for serious use.

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Old 05-22-2018, 09:34 AM
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I carry single actions purty often in the wilds.......I don't feel defenseless.

Ruger 44 Mag.


Colt 2nd gen 44 Special



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Old 05-22-2018, 02:19 PM
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In my rural bucolic life I believe a Blackhawk .45 convertible and LCP would cover the bases.

So if forced to liquidate my handguns those would be the two I kept.


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Old 05-22-2018, 02:35 PM
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I used to shoot a lot of CAS, got pretty good, high up in the ranks back when. I would never choose a SA revo, but if I had one on I could use it effectively. Where it sucks is reloads & multiple targets. You just are not going to be as fast to the first aimed shot nor follow ups & if there is a reload, well you are likely done.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:51 PM
Old Arkansawyer Old Arkansawyer is offline
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Quote:
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I kind've want a cap-and-ball, actually. A couple dudes brought theirs to a little funtimes shoot once, and the sound of that black powder going off was incredible. Not to mention the huge clouds of smoke.
The Bass 44 spoke and sent lead and smoke, and 17 inches of flame according to Marty Robbins in the song Mr. Shorty. If you were close enough you could also set the bad guy on fire.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:00 AM
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I will sometimes carry this New Vaquero .45 Colt with smooth elkhorn grips. Why not? I really can't think of a realistic situation that couldn't be handled with 6 rounds of .45 Colt.

You would be severely out gunned in my neck of the woods .. when shootings happen where 8 to 23 rounds are shot !! when you might be going against 2 to 5 perps ..
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