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Old 05-24-2018, 10:01 PM
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Conceal Carry License holder follows shooter outside and confronts him shooting and killing him !

Armed citizen kills shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant - CNN

EDIT -- Added

adult female and a juvenile female were shot

Armed citizen kills shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant

Last edited by Whitwabit; 05-24-2018 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:12 PM
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Thanks for the link. One thing about armed self defense: You never know when or where you will need it. Anywhere, anytime.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:21 PM
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Thanks for the link. One thing about armed self defense: You never know when or where you will need it. Anywhere, anytime.
Any Place !!
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:22 PM
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Score one for the good guys....
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:36 PM
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Now that's news I like to hear about!
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Old 05-25-2018, 12:50 AM
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Was a great outcome ..

The women are expected to survive !!
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:31 AM
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CNN
"An armed citizen gunned down a shooter"

They do have a way with words
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:42 AM
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Good for him, well done, but I hope I NEVER have to do that.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:06 PM
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Good for him, well done, but I hope I NEVER have to do that.
I hope I never find myself in that situation too .. But I have trained that in the instance that it would happen I am prepared to act with the force necessary to stop the threat !!
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:25 PM
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Hold on you guys. The incident was over and he followed the man outside the shooting location and THEN shot and killed him. He did not have to do that. He was not "stopping" a shooting-it had occurred and he was outside provoking and shooting a man. My guess is this is going to result in a serious lawsuit.
But keep in mind, we do NOT know all the circumstances. Perhaps he truly DID have to shoot to save further harm to others.
Running out the door AFTER somebody and blazing away at someone LEAVING the scene is not a "necessary shoot" in some opinions.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:27 PM
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Conceal Carry License holder follows shooter outside and confronts him shooting and killing him !

Armed citizen kills shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant - CNN

EDIT -- Added

adult female and a juvenile female were shot

Armed citizen kills shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant

Actually, the 2nd link says that 3 people were shot- 2 women and young girl and a man fell and broke his arm during the shooting.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:37 PM
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Hold on you guys. The incident was over and he followed the man outside the shooting location and THEN shot and killed him. He did not have to do that. He was not "stopping" a shooting-it had occurred and he was outside provoking and shooting a man. My guess is this is going to result in a serious lawsuit.
But keep in mind, we do NOT know all the circumstances. Perhaps he truly DID have to shoot to save further harm to others.
Running out the door AFTER somebody and blazing away at someone LEAVING the scene is not a "necessary shoot" in some opinions.
Nothing in the article says that anyone chased him outside. In fact it says the shooter shot from outside and 2 bystanders, already outside, removed a gun from their vehicles and approached the 20 yr old shooter (who had ear and eye protection on). Also, "blazing away"? They repeatedly BEGGED for him to drop his gun and he refused and actually shot at them 1st.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:38 PM
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:39 PM
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I hope I never find myself in that situation too .. But I have trained that in the instance that it would happen I am prepared to act with the force necessary to stop the threat !!
Unless, Heaven for bid, that we're one of the ones shot.
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:22 PM
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Both citizens were outside and retrieved their weapons from their vehicles. They confronted the shooter independently at about the same time and at least one of them repeatedly ordered him to disarm and surrender, which was refused. The shooter was very clearly still a serious threat and the police said today that this was a case of acting to protect the lives of others. The second guessing above is completely off base.

This is about two miles from my house in a restaurant district where there were likely several hundred potential victims. This could easily have become a very bad mass casualty situation had these two men not intervened.
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:55 PM
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I hope I never find myself in that situation too .. But I have trained that in the instance that it would happen I am prepared to act with the force necessary to stop the threat !!
I train only to a modest degree. I admit, I play the odds. I do try to maintain a viable fitness level, however. As the founder and Grande Poo-bah of the Church of Devout Cowardice, I will prefer to escape a bad situation. If possible, if course. Kudos to the conceal carrier!
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:29 PM
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I train only to a modest degree. I admit, I play the odds. I do try to maintain a viable fitness level, however. As the founder and Grande Poo-bah of the Church of Devout Cowardice, I will prefer to escape a bad situation. If possible, if course. Kudos to the conceal carrier!
Until it would actually happen to you/me none of us know exactly what we would do .. we can only draw on past experiences and our level of training ..

But how one has acted in a past experience can be perceived on how one would act again ..

I'm not a HERO and don't plan on being one but I won't go down with out a fight !!
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:54 PM
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Having survived three deadly force confrontations during my 30 year LEO career it’s an experience I am not anxious to repeat.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:58 PM
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My sister-in-law once asked me if I would carry a gun in a restaurant. I told her I only carry it when I know I'll need it. I don't think she got the joke. We were walking into a restaurant at the time.
EDIT, the way she put it was "you wouldn't carry a gun to dinner in a restaurant, would you?"
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:25 AM
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I salute them for their bravery, though I am not sure I would have engaged. I have this policy carrying to protect myself, and my loved ones. I am usually with my wife, my first thoughts would have been to get her away from the threat.
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:04 AM
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Okay gents, now we have a better understanding of how things happened at the restaurant. Details make it all sound a lot more logical and the shooting by the two citizens WAS clean and justified. I AM concerned about one aspect of this situation and that is this: what if the two citizens had gotten confused about WHO the bad guy was and thought the other good guy was the shooter. Something to worry about and keep in mind.
All is well and the good guys won one.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:06 AM
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I train only to a modest degree. I admit, I play the odds. I do try to maintain a viable fitness level, however. As the founder and Grande Poo-bah of the Church of Devout Cowardice, I will prefer to escape a bad situation. If possible, if course. Kudos to the conceal carrier!
Agreed, kudos to the armed Citizens (no evidence either was a CC, as BOTH drew their weapons from their trunks{according to witnesses}- Btw, what's up with that?). I've been carrying for over 30 yrs and have been in dozens of LTL confrontations. IMO, mace or taser would serve me better. I have to go by what I KNOW I will NOT do, I will NOT try to shoot a melon from across the room of a crowd, nor will I try to shoot anyone from farther than 3-5 yrds, moving or in a crowd. I have just about decided to wait until they are bad breath range or actually grab me and then stick the pistol into their rib cage and unload. I'd like to think that if I witness a felony (rape or assault), I'll become so overcome with emotion to react appropriately.


True story: I know a fellow, a friend, who had a Portrait shop, just down the street from my house. One day, a teen went in and robbed him at gunpoint. The teen took him to his office, in the back and robbed him, then shot him in the head and fled out the back door. Luckily, the gun was a .22 and the bullet hit him on the side of the head and he recoiled in such a way that the bullet pierced his skin, traveled around the top of his skull and exited out the other side. He retrieved his pistol out of his desk and gave chase. There was an alley in the back , leading to a road. The teen was running towards the road. The shop owner began shooting at the teen. At that same time a woman, in a mini van, with 3 children in the van, was driving by. The shop owner missed the teen and a bullet went though the passenger door and struck the woman, killing her instantly, in front of her children. The shop owner got 10 yrs in prison for manslaughter. The teen got away.

Lessons? I've already said what i will and will not do. Plus I carry Glaser Safety Slugs, in eveyrthing, at all times.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:22 AM
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Until it would actually happen to you/me none of us know exactly what we would do .. we can only draw on past experiences and our level of training ..But how one has acted in a past experience can be perceived on how one would act again ..
I don't agree with that.....

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I'm not a HERO and don't plan on being one but I won't go down with out a fight !!
And that 's why I disagree with the above. Imo, the older we get, the more our sense of self preservation and survival instinct kicks in, so our past experiences would NOT be a good indicator. Another fact I know, that as a RESULT of past experiences, we change. When I was in USMC boot camp, my buddy and I talked one day, we looked at our platoon mates and tried to predict who would make it and who wouldn't. We were both dead wrong. The quiet, mousy guys were the ones who came through and the big, buffed loud mouths were the ones who didn't( physical and emotional injuries). I know that when most folks fail or are embarrassed at a past cowardice, etc, they resolve to rectify that. Resolving to "not go down without a fight" is alot of times, all that is required, to do the right things.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:41 AM
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My wife and I have gone to this Louie's Bar and Grille dozens of times and I've had my concealed carry permit for years and never carried a gun on me once, but always have it in the car. We were going to a movie last night and talking about this shooting and she seemed a little nervous about our security. I said "would you feel safer if I carried the gun" and she replied yes so I stuck the LCP II in my pocket and went in a public place for the very first time armed. The problem is, most of the mass shootings lately have been with rifles so I'm really thinking about carrying my AR-15 in the spare tire compartment of my SUV and putting run-flat tires on it.

Also the local police Captain has called the two men hero's and publicly stated that he doubted if any charges would be filed.

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Old 05-26-2018, 09:25 AM
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Thanks for the link. One thing about armed self defense: You never know when or where you will need it. Anywhere, anytime.
How true! I've always said shootings/robberies take place at convenient stores, filling stations, theaters, Malls, homes, Walmarts, schools, etc -- we go to them all...so I carry.
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Old 05-26-2018, 09:34 AM
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OK, per the morning fish wrap and AP (who's veracity ain't what it used to be, and appears to have an agenda, which they didn't used to) the late shooter was a state licensed armed security guard.

Allegedly the local prosecutor's office is still investigating the incident. There was uncertainty if either/both of the armed citizens were licensed to carry and mention that "state law allows a person to carry a firearm in their vehicle in certain circumstances."

"The investigation is continuing" is doubtless true-for a whole bunch of reasons having nothing to do with the apparently lawful use of force. I expect part of that is exactly how the alleged attempted murderer became a state licensed armed security guard (lotta butts to cover if nothing else). The question is if they're just covering all bases on all participants (including if either is a felon or otherwise barred from lawful firearm possession), or actively looking for a hook to hang charges. The comment about state law is likely to deflect those with an agenda.
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:11 AM
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My wife and I have gone to this Louie's Bar and Grille dozens of times and I've had my concealed carry permit for years and never carried a gun on me once, but always have it in the car. We were going to a movie last night and talking about this shooting and she seemed a little nervous about our security. I said "would you feel safer if I carried the gun" and she replied yes so I stuck the LCP II in my pocket and went in a public place for the very first time armed. The problem is, most of the mass shootings lately have been with rifles so I'm really thinking about carrying my AR-15 in the spare tire compartment of my SUV and putting run-flat tires on it.

Also the local police Captain has called the two men hero's and publicly stated that he doubted if any charges would be filed.
A few things: IN Florida, we cannot carry into a bar( and grill), but can at restaurants that sell alcohol, or that has a bar( but cannot actually walk over to or be at the bar). The difference is, what is the main thing they sell? If it's mainly food( that happen to sell alcohol), yes, if it's alcohol (that happen to sell some food) , no.

OK. has the weirdest law about Constitutional Carry, The Gov. vetoed the CC bill this year, but OK allows neighboring citizens( Kansas and Missouri) who DOES have Constitutional Carry, to carry in OK., without a permit. Go Figure. Btw, imo, ALL States should have Constitutional Carry. "Permit" is the root word of "permission", I do NOT need permission to "keep and bear" my arms. The 2A did NOT come with a "by permission" clause, any more than any other right did.

I'm not sure if the fact that some shooters use rifles be the reason to store my AR in the trunk. Rifle against rifle does NOT automatically "even the playing field". Being a former Marine, the deciding factor is successfully "Closing with and making contact" with the enemy, preferably out flanking and surprising. However, in an active shooter scenario, what are you going to do, avoid getting shot, go out to your car, get your rifle and then go back into the mall/theater/ restaurant/church/concert/school, etc and go after the shooter? Carry your AR everywhere you go? Hmmm, I don't see that as a reality. IMO, you'll have to use what you have on you and either hunker down and defend yourself ( and loved ones) where you are, 'til the threat is over or use what you have to exit safely. YMMV
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:25 AM
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Reading about situations like this gives me pause. I’m in my early 70s, walk w/a cane and carry a small J frame or LCP. Neither would be a match for a heavily armed active shooter and I don’t like the idea of keeping a Glock 17 (or any firearm) in my car. If the worst happens I hope we can exit safely, but I do worry about my grandkids in all this craziness.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:33 PM
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Reading about situations like this gives me pause. Iím in my early 70s, walk w/a cane and carry a small J frame or LCP. Neither would be a match for a heavily armed active shooter and I donít like the idea of keeping a Glock 17 (or any firearm) in my car. If the worst happens I hope we can exit safely, but I do worry about my grand kids in all this craziness.
It's not the size of the gun or amt of ammo you have, it's placement, placement, placement. A couple to the Brain Housing Group will stop most BG. Plus, NO one wants to get shot, not even by a pellet gun. MUCH better to be deadly accurate with a .22, than to miss, with anything else.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:40 PM
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From what I've read, the restaurant that was the scene of the shooting was a posted gun-free zone, and the heroes were complying.

While I believe that I am better with a rifle, a rifle is not always at hand. For that reason, it is warranted to practice at longer ranges. It is always beneficial to try a target or 2 out to 50 yards. You may be surprised at what your EDC can do at distance.
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Old 05-29-2018, 11:47 PM
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Reading about situations like this gives me pause. Iím in my early 70s, walk w/a cane and carry a small J frame or LCP. Neither would be a match for a heavily armed active shooter and I donít like the idea of keeping a Glock 17 (or any firearm) in my car. If the worst happens I hope we can exit safely, but I do worry about my grandkids in all this craziness.

Wife and I worry about ours also .. they always seem to be glued to their phones and don't pay any attention to the environment around them ..

Drive by and shootings at parties are a constant worry for any parent with kids and if teenagers are involved gangs are another worry we have ..
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
From what I've read, the restaurant that was the scene of the shooting was a posted gun-free zone, and the heroes were complying.
What the shooter ignored the sign. How could someone bend on murder do such a thing? Couldn't he read?

When will all the brain dead people get it through their heads that people bend on murder don't care about signs, mag capacities, or all the other rot pushed on the law abiding in the name of our safety?

We have to do "something"! Ya, well news flash dummies, "something" only works if it really effects the criminals and not the law abiding.

I worry about me and mine to in all the "craziness" I carry a gun a 6 shot 45acp 325 revolver. I try to be physically and mentally prepared to do the best I can with it. I can't very well walk around with a squad automatic weapon, even though if I really wanted one I could get one and in Montana I could take it most places even though I would get some odd looks. You have to be realistic about the odds and what is reasonable. A gun you can and will carry and are proficient with is reasonable. A gun in the trunk would not help 99.9% of the time. A gun in the passengers compartment way more likely to help. But, a 5 shot J frame 38 carried at all times would be a hundreds of times more likely to save me or mine.

Last edited by steelslaver; 05-30-2018 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:09 AM
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Re: post #30, shot placement, I’m well aware of its importance. I survived three deadly force confrontations during my 30 year career all while armed w/my issued thirty-eight.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Reading about situations like this gives me pause. Iím in my early 70s, walk w/a cane and carry a small J frame or LCP. Neither would be a match for a heavily armed active shooter and I donít like the idea of keeping a Glock 17 (or any firearm) in my car. If the worst happens I hope we can exit safely, but I do worry about my grandkids in all this craziness.
Iíd wager youíd still be better prepared with your 5-6 shots of .38 spl. than many folks armed with a hi-cap 9.

Iím often with my wife and young daughter; and this fact does change the dynamics of a deadly force situation out in public. One cannot always simply retreat or stay silent.
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
From what I've read, the restaurant that was the scene of the shooting was a posted gun-free zone
Read a restaurant review which said they had "no open carry allowed" signs.
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Old 06-06-2018, 08:31 PM
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Seems to me "Gun Free Zone" is slightly different than "No Open Carry". If they had Gun Free Zone no one should be there with a gun except law enforcement (usually excepted).

No Open Carry suggests concealed carry would not be a problem.

The second link did not work for me -- it redirected to this page. Here is a new link:
Armed citizen kills shooter at Oklahoma City restaurant | FOX2now.com
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Re: post #30, shot placement, Iím well aware of its importance. I survived three deadly force confrontations during my 30 year career all while armed w/my issued thirty-eight.
In any of the 3 encounters did you wish you had a larger caliber pistol or found the need for more ammo ??

Glad you survived !!
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