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Old 05-25-2018, 11:00 PM
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Default Pocket Carry Rule 2

Doesnít pocket carry violate Rule #2ĖDonít point the gun at anything youíre not willing to destroy (your leg)?
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:05 PM
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It seems to me that nearly every method comes very close to doing that -IWB, Appendix, etc. Just have to use safe handling practices at all times, no?

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Old 05-25-2018, 11:10 PM
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Doesn’t pocket carry violate Rule #2–Don’t point the gun at anything you’re not willing to destroy (your leg)?
The same could be said for IWB carry (especially Appendix Carry), don't you think?

If you're pocket carrying with no pocket holster, possibly... But I believe Most of us pocket carry in a Pocket Holster and when reholstering, many remove the holster from the pocket, holster the pistol, then place the holstered pistol in their pocket.

Another rule for Pocket Carry, especially if one is not using a Pocket Holster, is not to have ANYTHING else in the same pocket as the pistol, so nothing gets bound up in the trigger guard that could trip the trigger.

Last edited by RobzGuns; 05-25-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:58 AM
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If you want to slavishly copy rules, you wouldn't carry.
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Old 05-26-2018, 04:25 AM
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The lint factor attraction to plastic vs steel handguns merits a congressional investigation of fabric manufacturing agendas... or lack of.
Pockets are holsters..... some designs are better than others.... innovation awaits.
True pocket carry vs Apparent pocket carry.
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Old 05-26-2018, 06:19 AM
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The rule means when HANDLING the firearm.

No one will ever be injured by a firearm that's just sitting and that includes storage in a proper holster.

Following is opinion:

One should never pocket carry without a proper holster that protects the trigger and ideally nothing else should ever be carried simultaneously in that pocket.

Additionally, I think most of us automatically attempt to not sweep ourselves or others when holstering but at times it's unavoidable.
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Old 05-26-2018, 06:45 AM
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Pocket carry of a DAO only revolver is probably as safe as it gets.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tg4360 View Post
The rule means when HANDLING the firearm.

No one will ever be injured by a firearm that's just sitting and that includes storage in a proper holster.
THANK YOU!!!

If that rule literally meant "at all times", then no one could safely own a gun because it's ALWAYS pointed at something, and rarely is it something we want destroyed.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 7shooter View Post
Pocket carry of a DAO only revolver is probably as safe as it gets.
I'd agree that this is pretty safe. That said, I always pocket carry my snubbies in a pocket holster that keeps the muzzle down and the trigger covered.

Of course, (while everyone seems to love bashing them), the BG380 makes for a near foolproof pocket carry with combination of long DAO pull and its manual safety. I also use a pocket holster with these.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:43 AM
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Yes, but I am very confident that my 649 will not give me Glock leg.
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Old 05-26-2018, 09:34 AM
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That's why I won't AIWB - even with my 638.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:15 AM
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As already stated by many but nonthing else ever in that pocket other than firearm. Also agree on holster too. My whole working days where always pocket carry . Really couldn't pull off any kind of other carry . To get caught would have been out of job . ( never caught )Since retired I have pretty much gone to larger calibers and I WB. (40. & 45.) Go figure
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:37 AM
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A gun isn't 'pointed' at anything unless it's in your hand.
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Old 05-26-2018, 12:42 PM
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Thumbs up he BG380 is almost invisible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
I'd agree that this is pretty safe. That said, I always pocket carry my snubbies in a pocket holster that keeps the muzzle down and the trigger covered.

Of course, (while everyone seems to love bashing them), the BG380 makes for a near foolproof pocket carry with combination of long DAO pull and its manual safety. I also use a pocket holster with these.
The only gun that I ever pocket carry is the Bodyguard. Even a J frame prints a lot in jeans , but the BG380 is almost invisible!
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:34 PM
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My slavish adherence to Rule 1 (always loaded) and Rule 2 (pointing at things) means I low crawl past the counters in all gun stores. I get some funny looks, but at least I’m completely safe.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:50 AM
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Some great comments.

Shooting injuries involving concealed carry holsters are the result of negligent discharges. During such an event, if all the safety rules are followed, no one should get hurt.

With a good holster, i.e., one that covers the trigger and has a non-collapsible top, a shooter must have enough training, practice and confidence to get the gun into the holster without it discharging. There are many methods to do this, and they are adjustable to various skill levels and carry positions. But the fact remains, if you canít get a gun into a holster safely, you need more training.

Once the gun is in the good holster, it is safe from firing. If from time to time it points toward something we donít want to destroy, it is of relatively little concern. Itís not going to go off while in the holster. If you carry a handgun concealed, you are going to violate Rule #2 at some time.

When the time comes to remove the gun from the holster, it will not go off unless you pull the trigger. If you are not sufficiently trained and competent to apply trigger pressure at the correct time (Rule #3), perhaps you shouldnít carry concealed until you are confident through training and practice that you wonít shoot yourself.

For some people, carry position decisions seem to focus on safety of where the gun is pointed when in the holster. This is not the priority. Safety is produced by the shooterís competence in preventing the gun from firing when it is not supposed to. It is possible to holster a gun, yes even in the appendix position, without pointing it at a body part.

A manís gotta know his limitations. If he doesnít feel confident carrying in a certain position, then he shouldnít. But really, the position should not be determinative. Can the carrier keep the trigger from being pulled until it is supposed to be? That skill/confidence applies to every carry position equally.

I get it. I would rather shoot myself along the outside of a leg or through my butt than into my femoral artery, but really, I would just rather not shoot myself at all. That is really the plan, and it is possible to accomplish. It takes some real training, dedicated and safe practice, and resultant confidence, no matter the carry position.

Unfortunately, many concealed carriers are not dedicated enough to their own safety and perhaps others to make the necessary effort. They think carrying in a certain position and hoping that an ND never occurs will get them through safely without real holster training and practice. And it probably will, based on statistical probability. But if that is the rationale, then why carry at all, since statistically, they will never need to draw their gun, right?
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
I'd agree that this is pretty safe. That said, I always pocket carry my snubbies in a pocket holster that keeps the muzzle down and the trigger covered.

Of course, (while everyone seems to love bashing them), the BG380 makes for a near foolproof pocket carry with combination of long DAO pull and its manual safety. I also use a pocket holster with these.
I agree about the BG but I'm a belt and suspenders type when it comes to safety with firearms thus I rolled my own holster:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/139981512-post23.html

There always has to be a compromise between safety and accessibility. For instance, I often carry at work in a Galco Jackass rig. Think about that. The firearm is under my armpit constantly pointing at persons and things I wouldn't want injured but it's perfectly safe.

That said, I've very often practiced not only the draw but getting the gun back in the holster which is NOT easy. But it's again a compromise to safety that allows carry of a service pistol with the lowest profile possible.

TG

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Old 05-27-2018, 08:19 AM
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Doesnít pocket carry violate Rule #2ĖDonít point the gun at anything youíre not willing to destroy (your leg)?
I don't think the thigh is in much jeopardy except unless, as you are drawing, you angle the muzzle towards your thigh.

How about your foot? When I pocket carry and I am standing the muzzle is pointed towards my foot but when either sitting or standing the barrel is parallel with my thigh so a discharge from that angle doesn't seem likely to cause a devastating wound to the thigh but I could imagine a superficial wound or burn. The leg, i.e. the area between the knee and the ankle seems like it would be mostly out of harms way.
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Old 05-27-2018, 08:55 AM
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Only time I'm concerned is carrying my J frame in its upside down shoulder holster. Seems like a ND it would go into my armpit.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:37 PM
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First rule of pocket carry: Don't pocket carry.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
First rule of pocket carry: Don't pocket carry.
The first rule of pocket carry should read: Make sure you have a pocket.
Without a pocket, none of the other rules are applicable!
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:56 PM
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I pocket carried my Model 38 as a back-up w/o a holster (never heard of a pocket holster then) in the early ‘70s. As has been noted you’re going to point at something when carrying unless you use an OWB rig but there are some guns I won’t do that with. The older model LCP, along w/almost any J frame, is pretty safe IF a holster is used. It keeps the gun from flopping around inside a pocket and protects the trigger.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:10 PM
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I feel perfectly confident and comfortable carrying my M&P Bodyguard .380 in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:26 PM
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I have pocket carried an LCP in a Sticky for many years.

I an completely comfortable with it and see no need to change.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23 View Post
A gun isn't 'pointed' at anything unless it's in your hand.
...until you sit down at a restaurant (or anywhere, really) and realize your 'pocket carry gun' is now pointing at the family at the next table...many times I've tried to figure the possible trajectory, then moved my leg a bit to 'aim' in a safe direction...and I try to sit down with the 'gun side' facing a wall, so no one can see any outline for a giveaway...
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:08 AM
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Ensconced in a proper holster that protects the gun from being fired reduces the need for anal observance of Rule #2. It is one of the primary reasons to carry concealed in a proper holster.

Learn to get the gun in and out of that holster safely and you will be obeying the rules you need to be obeying.

Last edited by CB3; 06-18-2018 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
I pocket carried my Model 38 as a back-up w/o a holster (never heard of a pocket holster then) in the early Ď70s. As has been noted youíre going to point at something when carrying unless you use an OWB rig but there are some guns I wonít do that with. The older model LCP, along w/almost any J frame, is pretty safe IF a holster is used. It keeps the gun from flopping around inside a pocket and protects the trigger.
We/I would have the dry cleaners/tailor sew a holster into the pocket of uniform pants. This consisted of canvas sewn into a holster shape. Since in the 70's most pocket guns were J frames I never heard of any reports of J frame leg. Most ND's back then seemed to stem from cops playing with their gun.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:28 AM
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Rules, rules and more rules about pocket carry.
In the summer I clip carry my LCP's, one in front pocket the other back pocket, no holsters, just Techna clips.

If people are so paranoid about AD's, carry a knife or fist size rock.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
Rules, rules and more rules about pocket carry.
In the summer I clip carry my LCP's, one in front pocket the other back pocket, no holsters, just Techna clips.

If people are so paranoid about AD's, carry a knife or fist size rock.
Yea, well, there are safety rules for a reason...it's not 'paranoia' (typical Lib move, namecalling) it's following gun safety rules about where it's pointed. So you don't want anyone to be safe with their firearm. Got it.

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Old 06-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
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It's not 'paranoia' (typical Lib move, namecalling) it's following gun safety rules about where it's pointed.
Calling me a Lib?
Now that's funny.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:09 AM
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If pocket holsters cause you concern, what must you think of anyone carrying a striker-fired pistol in a horizontal shoulder holster? That pistol is pointing at everything behind you at all times.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:56 AM
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Pocket carry my M638 all the time....
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Old 08-26-2018, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
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...For instance, I often carry at work in a Galco Jackass rig. Think about that. The firearm is under my armpit constantly pointing at persons and things I wouldn't want injured but it's perfectly safe.
Hmmm. Well, I wonít debate that concept, and Iím pretty sure you donít want to either. We all have our own opinions, for whatever reasons, which is fine with me. All I will say is when I see someone wearing one of these things, Iím on my way out of there! I see them now and then in fast food restaurants around here, particularly in the warm-weather months of the year. I donít care to stand behind or be around anyone with their loaded gun pointed at my chest or head, whether the gun is in a holster or not.

If I were King there wouldnít be any horizontal shoulder holsters in public places.
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:49 PM
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Would deoend on your pocket I suppose. Fwiw, iwb at 3:30, uness you have a huge fat azz, not really pointed at anything directly as awib.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:16 PM
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I think we're getting a little to picky here regarding carrying a modern defensive/fighting pistol or revolver in the pocket! While working as a bicycle patrol officer, I was issued a BDU style uniform pant. I carried my 342Ti for quite sometime in a well designed Alessi pocket holster and I NEVER was concerned with violating Jeff Cooper's Rule #2.
I still often pocket carry the 342 and/or a Glock 42 or 43 in a properly designed Desantis or AHolster pocket holster, still without concern...
Here's a review of Col. Cooper's Rule #2 and his interpretation:

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety



RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET



RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

All guns are always loaded - period!

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

Conspicuously and continuously violated, especially with pistols, Rule II applies whether you are involved in range practice, daily carry, or examination. If the weapon is assembled and in someone's hands, it is capable of being discharged. A firearm holstered properly, lying on a table, or placed in a scabbard is of no danger to anyone. Only when handled is there a need for concern. This rule applies to fighting as well as to daily handling. If you are not willing to take a human life, do not cover a person with the muzzle. This rule also applies to your own person. Do not allow the muzzle to cover your extremities, e.g. using both hands to reholster the pistol. This practice is unsound, both procedurally and tactically. You may need a free hand for something important. Proper holster design should provide for one-handed holstering, so avoid holsters which collapse after withdrawing the pistol. (Note: It is dangerous to push the muzzle against the inside edge of the holster nearest the body to "open" it since this results in your pointing the pistol at your midsection.) Dry-practice in the home is a worthwhile habit and it will result in more deeply programmed reflexes. Most of the reflexes involved in the Modern Technique do not require that a shot be fired. Particular procedures for dry-firing in the home will be covered later. Let it suffice for now that you do not dry-fire using a "target" that you wish not to see destroyed. (Recall RULE I as well.)
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:22 PM
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For a gun forum there are certainly a lot of people here who seem to think a gun can just "go off" by itself.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:33 PM
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I carry how I choose..and I won't come on here and tell you if it goes wrong..
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:07 PM
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The light trigger pulls on modern, concealable, double-action, black semi-autos concerns me.
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hostler View Post
For a gun forum there are certainly a lot of people here who seem to think a gun can just "go off" by itself.
Yes, and I'm one of them. Whether you choose to admit it or not, a gun can malfunction without intervention from a human. Sears fail, parts break, safeties malfunction, this is always a potential for any firearm. This is why the 4 rules are so important.

It's mostly true that a modern firearm, properly maintained, will not fire unless the trigger is pressed. I say mostly because there is always the potential for any mechanical device to fail or malfunction.
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Old 08-26-2018, 06:10 PM
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Default Pistols going off by themselves?

How about revolvers? Are they safer? Say a 442 in a pocket holster or a Model 60 with a bobbed hammer in the same holster.

Just asking. Because I carry one of those in a Mika pocket holster daily and have no plans to change that practice.
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Old 08-26-2018, 06:18 PM
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The light trigger pulls on modern, concealable, double-action, black semi-autos concerns me.
I think you actually mean striker fired..DA semi's are not light.
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Old 08-26-2018, 06:24 PM
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Yes, and I'm one of them. Whether you choose to admit it or not, a gun can malfunction without intervention from a human. Sears fail, parts break, safeties malfunction, this is always a potential for any firearm. This is why the 4 rules are so important.

It's mostly true that a modern firearm, properly maintained, will not fire unless the trigger is pressed. I say mostly because there is always the potential for any mechanical device to fail or malfunction.
Can you say revolver.. short of a human error I see nothing you've noted as relivant to one. Except: "will not fire unless the trigger is pressed."
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Old 08-26-2018, 07:07 PM
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Default These few rules cover each other...

If you are semi violating rule #2, doesn't rule #3 cover it.
"Keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
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Old 08-26-2018, 07:20 PM
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If you are semi violating rule #2, doesn't rule #3 cover it.
"Keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Not if youíre violating R2 and itís pointed at me! At that point, Iím not interested in R3 and Iím leaving. Iíve seen enough.
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Old 08-26-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
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For a gun forum there are certainly a lot of people here who seem to think a gun can just "go off" by itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Yes, and I'm one of them. Whether you choose to admit it or not, a gun can
malfunction without intervention from a human. Sears fail, parts break, safeties malfunction, this is always a potential for any firearm. This is why the 4 rules are so important.

It's mostly true that a modern firearm, properly maintained, will not fire unless the trigger is pressed. I say mostly because there is always the potential for any mechanical device to fail or malfunction.
Can you provide any actual instances of a gun just "going off" while at rest and the trigger having not been pulled?
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:39 PM
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I used to carry my 220 at work in a Galco Miami Classic because I could throw on all my stuff at once - gun, two mags, cuffs, and badge. That backwards facing gaping muzzle caused some consternation, until I discovered an unbuttoned Hawaiian shirt would magically render it completely safe again.

The fish story is classified, but can be unclassified on a case by case basis. A case of Modelo.
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:43 PM
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I'd rather have a pistol in my pocket than an automatic knife.


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Old 08-26-2018, 09:03 PM
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I regularly carry a 442 in a Milt Sparks pocket holster......never even had a thought of an AD with it, for a couple of reasons. #1 the trigger pull on a 442, #2 it's in a holster with the trigger covered.........the gun will come out by it's self pretty easy, when you want to pull the holster, and the gun out at the same time, it takes a little effort.

Common sense plays a large part in carrying concealed in any manor.
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Old 08-26-2018, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
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The light trigger pulls on modern, concealable, double-action, black semi-autos concerns me.
If the trigger pull on your striker-fired pistol is "light" or "short", your gun has been monkeyed with. The length and weight of a striker-fired pistol's pull is what makes it safe, but not the way you think. The trigger bar movement depresses the safety plunger, and moves the sear plate across the firing pin's engagement surface.

If the trigger is short and light, there is not enough tension or travel for either the safety plunger to work properly, or to create enough interference between the trigger bar and the firing pin.

Unless you literally just think that you, personally, need more weight and travel to keep from shooting yourself, and are confusing your personal preferences with a universal minimum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One
Can you provide any actual instances of a gun just "going off" while at rest and the trigger having not been pulled?
Numerous, but both of you are right.

Rast is correct in that you can either build a pistol that's an unsafe ***, or monkey with a perfectly good one until it goes off with a light tap. I mean, I can get crazy with a stone on a 1911 hammer, or adjust a G-Lock trigger to near-zero pre-travel, but I would be a retard in both situations and it's not the gun's fault for doing what I made it do.

You are correct in that modern designs have redundant layers of safety, some of them to the point that if said safety features were defeated, the pistol wouldn't fire anyway.
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Old 08-26-2018, 11:09 PM
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Can you provide any actual instances of a gun just "going off" while at rest and the trigger having not been pulled?
Yes, but if you're looking for a link, I don't have one.

I'm at a gun range a lot and have seen just about every malfunction or stupid thing a person can do. Fortunately, I've never been present when anyone was shot.

More than once, I've seen a loaded gun set (yes, set, not slammed) on a bench and the gun fired. If you can pocket carry and not jiggle or bump the gun, you're lying or just not being realistic.

Trap is a shotgun game. You're only supposed to load the gun and close the action when it's your turn. Alas, a lot of shooters feel it's necessary to load and close the action as soon as they can. I wish it weren't so, but many times I've been on the line when a gun "just went off" and fired into the ground or shot the Trap house. In every case the offending shooter claimed they didn't touch the trigger. In some of those cases I believe it.

In one case I was able to disassemble the gun and found a piece of debris had gotten stuck to the sear. This changed the sear from a decent engagement to a hair engagement. This was a one-in-a-billion thing, but it did happen and the gun did fire on its own.

The point is, any mechanical device can fail. Yes, I've even seen a spoon fail.
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