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Old 05-28-2018, 06:42 AM
GunsNParadise GunsNParadise is offline
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Default Liability of Carrying

I’m a beginning gun owner and new to the forum. Did not know where to post my concern but did here since I own an M&P pistol (380 EZ). Yesterday I completed my LTC class and passed both the written and range tests so am ready to apply for my Texas LTC. Have to say tho, the biggest thing I came away from the training is how financially devastating it can be to ever find yourself in the situation to have to defend yourself. Even just drawing your gun and not actually shooting it can result in an aggravated assualt charge until proven justified by the courts.
I KNOW, I KNOW! Your life is very valuable (duh) and is the first priority but I just can’t quit thinking about the financial aspect of it and that my husband does not (he has had his license for a year). We are retired and while not having a lot of income, I manage well and we live comfortably but it’s a precarious ledge. Also I am just a worrier by nature. At the class, we were told about insurance but I’m not sure I can add that monthly expense.
Just wondering how others handle this looming worry, especially when just starting this journey of carrying? And feel free to call me ridiculous.

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Old 05-28-2018, 07:01 AM
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For me, I greatly reduced my liability by changing my mindset once I got my CWP. Prior to getting my CWP and actually carrying, if I encountered a situation that was intrusive or offensive to my personal space and sensibilities I was pretty quick to call BS and even confront the person(s). Since I started carrying and understanding the potential lethality of doing so I don't find myself reacting to idiots any more. I get much more satisfaction letting idiots go on about their blissfully stupid ways with a smile on my face.
With this adjustment in my mindset, I'm pretty certain my liability is minimal and in the event that I have to present or discharge my firearm for self defense it is going to be fully warranted.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:06 AM
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The best thing you can do to assure a favorable outcome of any shooting is to know the law where you live. A justified brandishing or shooting is well, justified. Be a responsible gun owner and follow the law, you'll be just fine.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:17 AM
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I would recommend and encourage you to read Andrew Branca's book on self defense "The law of self defense". Understand and obey the law is part of self defense and I recommend this read.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:19 AM
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Be well versed in your local laws and if you can't afford to keep an attorney on retainer, at least have the contact information for a good one available to you. You have to decide if the vicarious risk to your welfare is severe enough to balance the liabilities that come with carrying a firearm. If you can't square all of that with yourself, you're better off leaving it at home.
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:03 AM
GunsNParadise GunsNParadise is offline
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I would recommend and encourage you to read Andrew Branca's book on self defense "The law of self defense". Understand and obey the law is part of self defense and I recommend this read.
I just looked at this on Kindle and it seems to be exactly what I need to read, so thanks for the suggestion. Otherwise I agree with Trooper224, that I need to forget this before I even start. However that is not an option for my hubby. Now he is a very sensible mature/responsible man but he has already said ďif somebody is trying to take off with my truck.....Ē. This truck is a 2004 Chevy pickup worth about 6k, a macho, good looking 4x4, but could easily be replaced (in reality) but not to him. That may be why Iím worrying 😏
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Old 05-28-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GunsNParadise View Post
.....the biggest thing I came away from the training is how financially devastating it can be to ever find yourself in the situation to have to defend yourself. Even just drawing your gun and not actually shooting it can result in an aggravated assualt charge until proven justified by the courts.

.....I just can’t quit thinking about the financial aspect of it.....

I agree with Trooper224, that I need to forget this before I even start.
You are a very wise woman. You're ultimate "weapon" is your brain, and you're way ahead of the masses in that respect. Stay smart, be safe, and whatever you choose to do, keep "thinking".
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:21 AM
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Default Oh, my.

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Originally Posted by GunsNParadise View Post
... Yesterday I completed my LTC class and passed both the written and range tests so am ready to apply for my Texas LTC. Have to say tho, the biggest thing I came away from the training is how financially devastating it can be to ever find yourself in the situation to have to defend yourself. ....
(emphasis added)

I won't call you 'ridiculous,' but if you truly think the above is the 'biggest thing' you learned, I believe you missed the whole point of CCW training.

Be safe.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:34 AM
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(emphasis added)

I won't call you 'ridiculous,' but if you truly think the above is the 'biggest thing' you learned, I believe you missed the whole point of CCW training.

Be safe.
No she didn't, the liabilities are just as important as anything else. As a matter of fact it was pretty much the first thing our instructor went over and he did emphasize the liabilities of using a firearm no matter how dire the situation. It's all part of the mindset of carrying.

GunsNParadise you're doing fine thinking about these things. I'll leave you with another theory on carry you also learn over time, one everyone knows, it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:35 AM
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GUNSNPARADISE, you are not ridiculous. It sounds to me like you are a mature and well balanced adult. As far as The Big D, I can well see how a good shot that is well trained in gun safety and marksmanship could take a LTC class and the liability issues being the big take away since you already new most of the other information. I fall in this category as well. I’m now 62 and have been shooting, hunting and participating in shooting matches for over 40 years so for me the legalities of carry struck a cord. I have worked hard and have earned a very comfortable living and do not want to risk loosing it over an unthought out dumb mistake that could also result in a felony charge preventing me from even owning a gun. Keep comfortable in your ability to carry and the knowledge of how to do it legally. Those who ignore the liabilities of Cary may well find themselves charged with a felony and in jail unable to carry or own guns when they get out. You on the other hand will be secure in your ability to own and carry safely and legally.

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Old 05-28-2018, 09:36 AM
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Default liability of carrying

Unfortunately, if you use a firearm to defend yourself and make a mistake in the law, you may get arrested. That is always a possibility, unless you have a responding police officer who also believes in your God-given Right to self-defense. On the other hand, you will be alive or your family will be alive. The other alternative (lying on the ground) sure leaves a lot to be desired. Make sure you have "self defense insurance). You got to be nuts not to have it these days - plus it is cheap. I would recommend CCW Safe as it is by far the best out there. (CCW Safe - Legal Service Membership Plan for CCW Permit/License Holders)

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Old 05-28-2018, 09:49 AM
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It certainly is not ridiculous to think about the possibility of having a bad result from a weapon use event. Itís that careful thought that is most likely to keep you from having that bad result.

For most thoughtful folks, carrying a gun moderates impulsive behavior that might end in a bad result.

For a few folks, carrying a gun releases their inner fool.

Itís the latter that most commonly get themselves into trouble using a firearm.

Insurance is an option, but requires much more through analysis than the average consumer is likely to devote to a decision to buy a particular policy. They often pay only in limited circumstances, you often have to advance your expenditures then chase the insurance company for reimbursement. For most folks, the coverage is of limited benefit. Keep in mind that the folks selling and advertising such insurance arenít doing so out of altruism: theyíre making money at it.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:04 AM
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The best thing you can do to assure a favorable outcome of any shooting is to know the law where you live. A justified brandishing or shooting is well, justified. Be a responsible gun owner and follow the law, you'll be just fine.
As someone who is working toward getting a CCW, how does a person find out all the ins and outs of their local law?
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:04 AM
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OP is a 'beginning gun owner,' and seems most concerned about financial liability. Makes very little sense to me.

Be safe.

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...As far as The Big D, I can well see how a good shot that is well trained in gun safety and marksmanship could take a LTC class and the liability issues being the big take away since you already new most of the other information. ....
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:15 AM
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This is a great topic. Thanks OP and thanks for the book reference. I will be buying a copy on Amazon.

I agree that common sense and awareness can keep you from making a horrible regretful mistake. I've been interested in the insurance options but I believe it is not a replacement for common sense, awareness of laws, awareness of circumstances AND self control.

A book such as "The Law of Self Defense" might be a great help arming you with information you just may be able to apply in an instant!
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GunsNParadise View Post
I’m a beginning gun owner and new to the forum. Did not know where to post my concern but did here since I own an M&P pistol (380 EZ). Yesterday I completed my LTC class and passed both the written and range tests so am ready to apply for my Texas LTC. Have to say tho, the biggest thing I came away from the training is how financially devastating it can be to ever find yourself in the situation to have to defend yourself. Even just drawing your gun and not actually shooting it can result in an aggravated assault charge until proven justified by the courts.

Congrats on your decision to carry. Now you get to go through the "Wally World "carry (usually everyone's 1st public CC.). As said, know your State's laws (read the actual statutes, look at case law, etc). We here in Florida are lucky to have a Lawyer ( Jon H. Gutmacher) who specializes in CWL cases and wrote a book covering case law ( and keeps updating- I have the 7th edition). I'm not familiar with TX law, but in Florida, we have a law that specifically spells out what Brandishing is. We had a law against brandishing before, but spunky DA would charge people if they inadvertently exposed their weapon( vest blew open, or gun exposed when bending over, etc). Now, the new law forgives those incidents. Brandishing is when you deliberately threaten someone with a gun (You may NOT say, "You better leave me alone, I'm armed!") or pull it to threaten or intimidate. THAT is a no no.

The acid test, that a judge will use (and you hope that you have plenty of witnesses that will testify to that) that if you did NOT use your gun to stop the BG, they were DEFINITELY going to hurt you or someone. Also, they look at Disparity( was that threat able and willing to carry out the threat: you - 5', 100lb soaking wet, BG - 6'4", 250lb, you against 2 or 3 or 4). Speaking of that, THAT is why you carry- to stop a BG from hurting you or someone. Nothing else. Don't pull your gun unless you intend on immediately using it. Unless you HAVE to use it to save your life.

I've been CC for over 30 yrs now and have been in dozens of confrontations, but 99.99% are less than lethal encounters, so using a gun was out of the question. Mace or a taser is MUCH more likely needed than a gun. Btw, bullet selection is an issue. I use Glaser Safety Slugs, exclusively. ALOT less over penetration. There's a saying: "Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it." So true.

Proceed with caution, but don't let it scare you so that you don't carry at all. Get training and practice. Dry practice at home. Practice carrying and drawing and presenting, etc., at home. Become comfortable wearing it and practicing the "manual for arms" ( draw, present, trigger press, reload, reholstering, etc).
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:24 AM
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You control the gun, it does not automatically pop up out of your holster and shoot the attacker or assailant. You decide when to draw or not, you decide whether to shoot or not and you decide to die or not. If ever in a situation you are the one that can mentally process how much $$$ is at stake before you decide to shoot.....but in that case the assailant May have already decided your fate. Put your gun away, move your assets into a living trust under your name so that if your spouse does decide to use his gun he has no assets at risk. Sounds like CC is not for you.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:29 AM
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I've been CC for over 30 yrs now and have been in dozens of confrontations,
?? Why so many confrontations?
That is a high number. Job related or just life related?
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:39 AM
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@OP:

I can understand where you are coming from. I am a disabled retiree that is also a custodial parent. I am dependent upon my pension and social security, plus I need to provide for my children. Unfortunately, my state doesn't trust law-abiding residents to carry, so I must rely on a non-resident permit when I travel out of state.

I,too, am concerned about the legal and financial implications of carrying, the first step I made was to find an insurance program that I was comfortable with. I went with USCCA because they: paid up front, didn't need to review my case to confirm the shooting was justified before money was paid, and the clincher was the post shooting counseling available to me was extended to my children if they were present at the scene of a defensive shooting. USCCA provides representation or reimbursement for your own lawyer, bail, and payment of any civil liability.

This insurance was comforting, but left a gap. I went to a local US Lawshield seminar and I was brought up to speed on the laws and confident in the program attorney for NJ. I promptly joined. For about $13 a month, I now have unlimited legal representation in all 50 states (as long as I maintain my membership). Basically, for $40 a month, I have legal representation that I am comfortable with, and I have financial resources in place to ensure that I can legally be home at the end of the day with my children, and they can get counseling should they ever be part of a shooting situation.

Some may say that I am throwing away money, but I see it as purchasing peace of mind.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:41 AM
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Default Know the law, develop your mindset

Self defense is filled with lots of perceived feelings and subjective decisions, which leaves a plaintiff's lawyer lots of wriggle room to shade the facts against you.

It's important to remember that you are not a law enforcement officer and you do not have a municipality to indemnify you against civil judgment. For this reason, you cannot be too quick in jumping into a situations unfolding around you.

The law is most favorable to you when acting in your home against an intruder but self defense should not be construed to be a license to kill. Outside your home, you are in the legal minefield and the more "blue' your local government, the more likely you will find a hostile or indifferent authority scrutinizing your actions with a view to "make an example" out of you.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:56 AM
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Being concerned about financial and criminal liability is perfectly sane. I would suggest the following:

(1) Knowing the law is good. Doing everything humanly possible to avoid getting into a confrontation beforehand is even better. And that includes everything from avoiding confrontations as a general rule, all the way to disengagement and retreat when avoidance fails. Avoidance itself is practically a lifestyle choice.

(2) You don't need insurance. Just like high-dollar training, it's a simple fact of life that many people can't afford it, while even more would find it an unreasonable and unnecessary expense. Unfortunately, the trend in gun culture lately has been to use training and insurance as chips to batter down and belittle other folks. "You've had training and have USCCA? Well--I've been to Gunsite and two ECQC Urban Ninja classes, and I'm a member of USCCA and the ACLDF!"

(3) It's extremely unlikely that you'll ever need your gun. If you do need your gun, it's even less likely that you'll need to shoot. If you need to shoot, there's an even smaller chance that you'll need to worry about criminal and civil liability.

(4) Your best weapon against liability is education. I believe a book or two was quoted above. Mas Ayoob books are also generally pretty accessible and worthwhile. Become well-versed in armed self-defense in general. Remember--if the absolute worst of the worst does happen, if your ability to articulate why your actions were necessary is critical. And when the subject of how you came to know what "disparity of force" is comes up, whoever's asking will suddenly realize that asking you about it allows your defense to introduce armed self-defense texts into evidence. Probably the last thing in the world they want the jury to see.

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Sounds like CC is not for you.
Today 10:18 AM
Saying that I'm incapable of responding to this politely, communicates exactly what I think, in the most polite manner I am capable of.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:05 AM
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The internet is full of horror stories involving self defense. While there are surely some that occur, I'd like to see a study of reported SD events--everything from granny shooting an intruder to defending against a robbery on the streets--along with the following criminal and civil actions afterwards. I'm willing to say it is a lot less that what many claim it "will" be. Everything seems to be a worst-case scenario. You will automatically be arrested and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, if the internet is true.

I am aware of "possible" repercussions of carrying a firearm. I understand it "could" get expensive. I accept those risks. It is better than being dead. If my financial status were more important than my life, I wouldn't own a gun.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:10 AM
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When your carrying avoid conflict at all costs, actually when not carrying also. Your chances of being a victim of a violent crime are very low, and with situational awareness, and common sense the chances drop even lower. Carrying a firearm is a last resort, and if you only intend to use it as a last resort you will probably be fine legally.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:16 AM
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The fact that you are asking questions shows you are thinking CC through. That's a good thing. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility as I'm sure you well know, and the financial aspect does need to be thought through, however, when its life or death that dollar isn't very important. I have been armed, either on my person or in a vehicle for at least 30+ years and I have never felt the need to pull my handgun. Stay level headed at all times, I bet you will be fine. One more thing, property can all be replaced, life can't. Keeping that in mind has helped me ignore a lot of situations.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:26 AM
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As someone who is working toward getting a CCW, how does a person find out all the ins and outs of their local law?

Search the web for your states website .gov that details the use of force statutes and penal code. There are inexpensive apps for CCW with links to .gov that guide you as a CCW, as well.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:28 AM
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?? Why so many confrontations?
That is a high number. Job related or just life related?
Life related, Mostly punk teens at gas stations (or everywhere), loud mouths at theaters, rude people at restaurants, or line cutting, Wal-martians. I've been told on numerous occasions that I remind them of someone they really dislike. I'm on a personal crusade to expose and stamp out dysfunction and unfortunately, it's everywhere. I have low tolerance for rudeness and meanness and I don't mind pointing it out. I HATE when stupid parents hit or berate their kids, in public. Same with spouses. I get alot of, "Hey, mind you own business!" To which I reply, "Well, doing that here in public MAKES it my business." Plus , being n Construction for 30 yrs, I ran into alot of yahoos, who had really bad upbringings and didn't get along well with others. I just don't give, nor take, any ****.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:34 AM
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The law is most favorable to you when acting in your home against an intruder...Outside your home, you are in the legal minefield....
Not so in Florida (and other states), with the Castle Doctrine. You are just as able to defend yourself, anywhere you normally go( work, gas station, theater, grocery store convenience store, bank, salon, restaurant, etc), EXACTLY as you can in your home.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:37 AM
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You have the castle doctrine, then you have the stand your ground law (no duty to retreat).
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:40 AM
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My advice is to:

1) Study your local laws pertaining to self defense very, very carefully;

2) Get and read a few books on self defense to better understand some of the potential pitfalls;

3) Locate a local criminal defense attorney, consult with him and pay a retainer for his services.

It's an incredible long shot you'll ever need him so the retainer should be inexpensive - maybe $100. But it will be time and money well spent and you will have an attorney on call who can be consulted before you say ANYHING to law enforcement other than *maybe* "I was in fear for my life, I'll fully cooperate, but I'm to emotional t give a statement right now". Knowing what to say will come from that initial consult with an attorney long before you are ever involved in a self defense shoot.

4) use precognition to consider potential scenarios and responses.

For example, you see a guy dragging a girl out of a car in a Wal-mart parking lot. What would you do? It could be an attempted kidnapping where you may be justified (depending on the laws in your state) in shooting to protect others from death or serious bodily injury. However, Wal-mart parking lots are not usually the chosen place for a kidnapping - there are too many witnesses for someone looking for a victim for a child sex crime and the kind of parents who would be good targets for ransom don't normally shop at Wal-mart. A more likely scenario would be a custody issue between two estranged parents. The problem there is two fold. First if you shoot a non custodial father in this dispute, the mother will probably still be hostile toward you and your actions since you shot or killed her source of child support - and he was not likely to hurt the kid anyway, even if you were technically justified in shooting him. Second, and worse, if the man pulling the kid out of the car happens to be the custodial parent getting his daughter back, and you shoot him, you just committed a criminal homicide. Despite the best of intentions you've committed a crime, and having no clue what was really going on is not a valid legal defense.

The options and consequences are a little more clear after you've considered various scenarios (and in general the more thought you put into potential "defense of others" the less likely you will be to ever consider it).

----

You need to understand that unless the facts are crystal clear and supported by numerous credible witnesses, if you shoot someone, even in self defense, you're going to go to jail until they sort things out. You may well be charged and you may well end up going to trial, even in a "good" self defense shoot. In many states whether it's a good shoot or not, you'll be sued in civil court.

Trust me, the legal process following a shoot is like a meat grinder. You'll still be made of the same beef before and after, but you'll never be the same.

Which means if you ever shoot it better be because you truly had no other alterative.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:54 AM
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Life related, Mostly punk teens at gas stations (or everywhere), loud mouths at theaters, rude people at restaurants, or line cutting, Wal-martians. I've been told on numerous occasions that I remind them of someone they really dislike. I'm on a personal crusade to expose and stamp out dysfunction and unfortunately, it's everywhere. I have low tolerance for rudeness and meanness and I don't mind pointing it out. I HATE when stupid parents hit or berate their kids, in public. Same with spouses. I get alot of, "Hey, mind you own business!" To which I reply, "Well, doing that here in public MAKES it my business." Plus , being n Construction for 30 yrs, I ran into alot of yahoos, who had really bad upbringings and didn't get along well with others. I just don't give, nor take, any ****.
Hereís a gent who would be well served to be unarmed
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:58 AM
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Here’s a gent who would be well served to be unarmed
Yep, using force after provoking an attack is not wise.
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:33 PM
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Check you homeowners insurance first. Some cover you, most don't. My Umbrella Policy however does cover me IF I am not guilty. Remember these plans (CCW coverage) are NOT insurance. They still have the right to not cover you if you are guilty. I determined that it was worth it for me to have, to protect what I have, for less than $200 a year. Like someone already posted, your chances of ever using your gun in self defense is very very small. But why risk your life savings for a small amount of cost? At least that was my thinking.

Last edited by Johnrh; 05-28-2018 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:35 PM
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Before this thread goes completely off the rails, I would like to say this to the OP: Laws may vary from place to place but common sense is the same wherever you go. You need to have a frank discussion with your husband and come to a mutual understanding about what circumstances would justify your use of deadly force, and then agree to stay within those parameters. You live in a state that believes in your right to protect yourself. You’ll be fine.
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:59 PM
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Now he is a very sensible mature/responsible man but he has already said ďif somebody is trying to take off with my truck.....Ē. This truck is a 2004 Chevy pickup worth about 6k, a macho, good looking 4x4, but could easily be replaced (in reality) but not to him. That may be why Iím worrying 😏

With all due respect, that is not a sensible, mature or responsible comment. If he really feels that way, he's a terrible liability to himself and others and should not be carrying a firearm.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:02 PM
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Just remember if the SHTF and you have to defend yourself

"You have the right to remain silent"------use it.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CCHGN View Post
Life related, Mostly punk teens at gas stations (or everywhere), loud mouths at theaters, rude people at restaurants, or line cutting, Wal-martians. I've been told on numerous occasions that I remind them of someone they really dislike. I'm on a personal crusade to expose and stamp out dysfunction and unfortunately, it's everywhere. I have low tolerance for rudeness and meanness and I don't mind pointing it out. I HATE when stupid parents hit or berate their kids, in public. Same with spouses. I get alot of, "Hey, mind you own business!" To which I reply, "Well, doing that here in public MAKES it my business." Plus , being n Construction for 30 yrs, I ran into alot of yahoos, who had really bad upbringings and didn't get along well with others. I just don't give, nor take, any ****.
OTH as a civilian I have had no instances that I needed to pull a gun. I live by mind my own business, and accepting that the only control I wish to exert is over myself. I have learned over the years that being mellow is very relaxing, and mostly safe.

I have carried for years, as well as rode a motorcycle since a young teen. For years I knew, and at times rode with 1% bikers/full patches. Even with their reputation these near gun fight conflicts just did not happen. Closest was a prospect that tried to start a fight, I ignored him. A few days later the MC forced him to apologize. It has always made sense to me to just walk away from trouble.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:38 PM
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It strikes me that most people who allow me to know that they carry are civil, peaceful individuals, very much in control of themselves and their tempers.

I believe restraint and avoiding unnecessary confrontation is a big part of the responsibility I assumed when I got my concealed carry license twenty years ago. I take it very seriously.

I am not a police officer. It is not my job to correct "dysfunction" or go on "crusades" when I am armed, which is anytime I'm out of my home.

My use of my gun is only justified to protect myself or someone else from imminent, unmistakable threat of death or severe bodily harm. I have a responsibility to avoid provoking such danger or putting myself in dicey situations or dicey places with dicey people just because I can. I own nothing material which is worth my shooting someone.

GunsNParadise, I understand your valid concern. I won't advise you about the insurance. But if you are aware of your surroundings and the law, and avoid unnecessary risk, the chances of your having to use your gun are minuscule. If the time comes, you can be ready to meet the threat; but it's extremely unlikely. I got my carry license soon after they began to be issued in Kentucky. In twenty years I have never had to draw my gun.
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Old 05-28-2018, 04:22 PM
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In Illinois the last state to pass a conceal carry law we have 8 hours or more of just the law and about 6 hours of pistol familiarizing so a newbe would know how to work an auto and a revolver .. 16 hours total with range time included ..

The course I took was taught by 2 deputy sheriff's and the law was taught point by point .. so there is no excuse for not knowing the law .. in was covered indepth !! and I keep abreast of any new changes to the Illinois Conceal Carry Law .. as anyone with a license from their state should do ..
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:01 PM
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GunsNParadise-there are also other books that go deeper into the legal aspects than the one mentioned above. Shop around.

Do check out local lawyers. A brief meeting may help and would probably be either free or minimal cost.

Your hubby appears to need to reconsider his truck. Exactly how does that fall into "immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury"?

Finally, check out the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Your homeowners policy may cover or can be extended to cover you, but that may only be after all legal action is complete and you're held not liable. in the meantime, you've gotta front the retainer, legal fees, possible bail etc.

Last edited by WR Moore; 05-28-2018 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:12 PM
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I agree with Irrifleman that having some legal representation in your back pocket can be comforting. I've subscribed to Texas Law Shield for my wife and me since the day we passed our CCL exams. It is comforting to know a competent attorney is a phone call away 24/7 and will be there with you through the whole process - which I surely hope never need occur.

Like many who have posted here I am more tolerant of "situations" since carrying concealed than before and let morons be morons. Look into Texas Law Shield or a similar service as it does provide some peace of mind and is well worth the cost.

BTW the first advice they will give you is to call the police immediately "after an incident" when you are secure and tell them you have been the victim of a crime, provide your name, description, location and then hang up on the 911 operator. Secure your firearm. Call Texas Law Shield. After law enforcement arrives invoke your Fifth Amendment right and cooperate with law enforcement with forfeiture of documents and firearm but refrain from discussing the "situation" until your attorney arrives and you have consulted with them. Then be true to your word and keep your mouth shut no matter how "innocent" you are. The more I read about "real life" incidents the better all that advice sounds to me.

Last edited by TXBryan; 05-28-2018 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:59 PM
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The above post is correct. True and important on all accounts.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:24 PM
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Not so in Florida (and other states), with the Castle Doctrine. You are just as able to defend yourself, anywhere you normally go( work, gas station, theater, grocery store convenience store, bank, salon, restaurant, etc), EXACTLY as you can in your home.
I believe you're referring to Stand Your Ground law, not Castle Doctrine. Castle Doctrine is for the home.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:42 PM
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Check you homeowners insurance first. Some cover you, most don't. My Umbrella Policy however does cover me IF I am not guilty.
No...homeowners & umbrella insurance covers "accidental events" or "unintentional
acts". It does not cover an intentional, deliberate ("he pulled a knife and said he was gonna gut me like a pig, so I shot him") act.

Are you going to say you "accidentally" fired, or "unintentionally"
fired, in an (presumably, otherwise) lawful use of deadly force in
self defense?

If so, you'd open another door of liability.
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:43 PM
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I believe you're referring to Stand Your Ground law, not Castle Doctrine. Castle Doctrine is for the home.
Not a good sign to confuse the two, either.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:44 PM
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I agree with hobbie-gunsmith. I spent many hours researching the different ccw insurance companies. I am retired and if involved in a self defense shooting the legal fees would ruin me.

I went with CCW Safe because they cover ALL legal fees both criminal and civil law suits with NO out of pocket cost and there are other advantages also. I sleep a lot better since I signed up. Give them a look!

There is a lot of good advice in some of the post on this site but with everyone wanting to sue at the drop of a hat,you canít bet your future on ďIt will never happen to meĒ.

Congrats on you getting your concealed carry permit!

STAY safe and shoot often! Also getting additional training by qualified Perl isnít a bad idea.
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:24 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
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No she didn't, the liabilities are just as important as anything else. As a matter of fact it was pretty much the first thing our instructor went over and he did emphasize the liabilities of using a firearm no matter how dire the situation. It's all part of the mindset of carrying.

GunsNParadise you're doing fine thinking about these things. I'll leave you with another theory on carry you also learn over time, one everyone knows, it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
Having taught what is referred to locally as the CCW course to remove restrictions, I can assure you that we cover liability and the fact that we live in a litigious society, compounded by the fact that we are in NY state (although upstate).

We cover this section, and we actually have had a few students decide not to complete the class to get to the practical exam. They are that concerned. In this state you have a duty to retreat if you can safely do so, even in your home.

Another problem we are dealing with is our idiot governor, in his quest to run for president in the future, has decided to attack the NRA and their insurance programs, Carry Guard, Instructors, etc. to the extent that he had his Finance / Insurance commissioner declare them illegal in the state (kind of funny, since one of their liberal harassment ideas they want to pass into law was requiring every gun owner to carry special liability insurance).

Bottom line - this has had a chilling effect on those who are sitting on the fence, with fear of liability.
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Old 05-29-2018, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
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Not so in Florida (and other states), with the Castle Doctrine. You are just as able to defend yourself, anywhere you normally go( work, gas station, theater, grocery store convenience store, bank, salon, restaurant, etc), EXACTLY as you can in your home.
Castle Doctrine refers laws governing your duty to retreat inside the home. What are normally referred to as "Stand Your Ground" laws relate to your duty, or lack thereof, to retreat outside your home.

That said, just because there is no specific obligation to retreat, doesn't preclude retreat being the smart thing to do--tactically, legally, and in terms of civil liability.

Where you're in specific danger is that you're the one initiating the conflict. In some places and situations, that can invalidate any later claim of self-defense. Regardless, actively engaging in such activities is certainly going to enter into the calculations of police, DAs, and jurors.

My advice? Let it slide.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:52 AM
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My advice, which is worth what you're paying, is to evaluate everything said here, do your own research, consider your unique personal and financial situation, and do what helps you sleep better. Like many things, there is no one best answer for everyone regarding how, when, and why you carry, and how you choose to otherwise protect yourself. Every state law regarding CCW and self defense that can't adequately be evaluated in consideration of the other states. I 100% guarantee that everyone's situation is different . . .
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:17 AM
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hope this conversation continues for awhile. there's lotsa hungry lawyers out there and i'm looking for some protection from lawyers as well as the bad guys. i'll be 80 in a couple of months and don't want to jeopardize a lifetime of hard physical labor if i have to use a firearm to defend my life. i certainly sympathize with the original poster's concerns.
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Old 05-29-2018, 12:02 PM
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No...homeowners & umbrella insurance covers "accidental events" or "unintentional
acts". It does not cover an intentional, deliberate ("he pulled a knife and said he was gonna gut me like a pig, so I shot him") act.

Are you going to say you "accidentally" fired, or "unintentionally"
fired, in an (presumably, otherwise) lawful use of deadly force in
self defense?

If so, you'd open another door of liability.
Here is the wording of my policy:
Part III Exclusions:
We do not cover damages resulting from:
4.Acts committed by or at the insured's direction with intent to cause personal injury or property damage. This exclusion does not apply to personal injury or property damage resulting from an act committed by the insured with reasonable and permissible force to protect persons or property from injury or damage.

I then went back and read the definitions of personal injury. The personal injury is only for me if I get injured, not if I injure someone else.

I stand corrected and appreciate you making me read the policy, which I should have done before I posted.
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