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Old 05-28-2018, 10:02 PM
Echo47 Echo47 is offline
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Default shotshell selection for short-barreled Rem 870 12ga

I haven't read or heard much about this topic recently, so...........
Everyone talks about their favorite concealed/night stand/bedside handgun should we hear an worrisome noise at zero-dark-thirty.
For years, I've had an empty-chambered, short-barreled Rem 870 12 ga. with the muzzle in an old slipper and the buttstock propped between the tall chest and the wall so it doesn't fall over unintentionally.
Friends in the local constabulary suggest a mix of rifled slugs and #6 shot, so a round of #6 is first into the chamber, followed by a slug, then more rounds of #6.
I have an older home with plaster walls and true brick exterior, but I am always concerned about over-penetration.
Anyone have a new ideas about defensive shotgun loads which will stop an unwelcomed night-time visitor but not penetrate the house next door?
What's with those new 1-3/4" shotgun shortie rounds?
Echo47
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:21 PM
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The slugs are really specialized in that you must be precise. Just use #4 buckshot. Plenty of small pellets that are lethal but will not over penetrate. #6 shot is for squirrel and pheasant, stick with buckshot, #4 to 00 (double ought) preferably #4 buck.
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:26 PM
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I'm a 00 buckshot fan primarily because I might need it on bears in the backyard, but I think any size shot inside house would work just fine. I'd feel #6 shot would be more than adequate inside your home.

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Old 05-28-2018, 10:26 PM
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00 buck federal flite control
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Old 05-28-2018, 10:56 PM
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My 870 with a light is loaded with nbr 4 birdshot. Perfect for in home defense and takes care of the occasional raccoon and other varmints. Double ought buck in side saddle.
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Old 05-29-2018, 07:02 AM
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A bunch of buckshot. There's really no need to screw with anything else.

Check out the amazing stopping power of birdshot:


She stopped. And then walked away.
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:17 AM
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Bird shot is for birds. I like the phrase I read once "always gruesome, seldom fatal".
I have a Rem 870 and 1100, both 18" barrels with mag extensions, loaded with federal L.E. "00" low recoil flitecontrol ready to go. Amazing rounds. At 20 yards it blows a fist size hole in paper. Yes, I worry about over penetration. Any round that will stop a threat will over penetrate. Turn on the lights (that alone I think would scare off most intruders) and identify your target, know what's behind it.
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:27 AM
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Forget 'Amazing Ammo Tricks!' Just use double ought.
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Old 05-29-2018, 08:48 AM
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I use the same load that I carried on patrol, low recoil 00 buck.
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:31 AM
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First off, get a light on that shotgun, you want to positively identify what you may be about to shoot. You don't want to be juggling a flashlight or waving a hand around looking for a light switch-that might not do you any good.

You definitely want buckshot, then look at shot size. The Federal H132 Flitecontrol is the low recoil 00 buck. HOWEVER, they also make it using #1 shot. There's a significant difference in shot weight with 00 being just shy of 1 1/8 oz and the #1 close to 1 1/2 oz. I'd expect the payload on the minature shells to be lacking for defensive use. The #1 load was developed at the request of a number of tactical teams, gives less penetration of walls etc, and a greater shot density on target. If you can't find these locally, Streichers Police Supply stocks the stuff and sells to anyone. If backordered, they will deliver as soon as they get it.

If you think you somehow might need slugs (and have rifle sights adjusted for their use) a side saddle or stock cuff could hold a few.

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Old 05-29-2018, 10:00 AM
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One thing to consider is that at "in home" distances, the pattern is going to be tight. I've shot quite a few NSI 2 1/4" 00 Buck 12 ga. shells from my Remington 870. These loads are lower velocity. They patterned ok, out of my shotgun, out to 10 yards. After that they scattered pretty wildly, but I've seen the pattern hold together out to 15 yards from other guns. They might be an option if you are concerned about over penetration. BTW, they fed flawlessly out of my 870.

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Old 05-30-2018, 12:33 AM
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Nope, birdshot is for birds. Just not enough penetration from smaller shot, esoecially from shorter bbl sg with little to no choke. I load #4 buck, slugs in my stock shell holders. #6 birdshot is slowed enough by just a denim jacket to insure shallow penetration.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:46 AM
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Nowhere inside my home presents a longer range than about 30 feet. I live in a city, residential area with close neighbors. My 870 Remington is kept loaded with 2-3/4" loads of BB-shot (90-or so .17 caliber lead balls). Inside the house I doubt that any intruder would notice the difference between 1-1/4 oz. of BB-shot and a rifled slug, but I also doubt that any wall would be penetrated with enough remaining force to cause serious injury.

Your method may vary.
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Echo47 View Post
I haven't read or heard much about this topic recently, so...........
Everyone talks about their favorite concealed/night stand/bedside handgun should we hear an worrisome noise at zero-dark-thirty.
For years, I've had an empty-chambered, short-barreled Rem 870 12 ga. with the muzzle in an old slipper and the buttstock propped between the tall chest and the wall so it doesn't fall over unintentionally.
Friends in the local constabulary suggest a mix of rifled slugs and #6 shot, so a round of #6 is first into the chamber, followed by a slug, then more rounds of #6.
I have an older home with plaster walls and true brick exterior, but I am always concerned about over-penetration.
Anyone have a new ideas about defensive shotgun loads which will stop an unwelcomed night-time visitor but not penetrate the house next door?
What's with those new 1-3/4" shotgun shortie rounds?
Echo47
If you're worried about over-penetration, why on earth are you loading slugs in your shotgun? You DO realize slugs are intended to increase the effective range of a shotgun, don't you?

Why do you have a supposed defensive shotgun sitting around with an empty chamber?

Why do you have a shotgun set up for defensive use loaded half-way with bird shot?

Do yourself a favor, and load your shotgun to its full capacity with 00 Buck, preferably a low recoil version, and put the safety on. At that point, your shotgun will be ready for action.

Don't forget to take it to the range for practice!
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Old 05-30-2018, 04:48 AM
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A bunch of buckshot
I agree with the buckshot,but, I do not believe he fired his gun or he missed!! Real world she will not walk away from #5, #6 12 ga @ 7 feet? I have seen 2 cases of people shot at 20-25 feet with 20 ga one with #5, the other with #6, both were DOA. Do you have a link to the video with sound? Be Safe,
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:28 AM
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I can't figure out why smaller shot is so ineffective at room size range, yet I've killed so many animals at 40 and 50 yards so easily. I know they weren't human sized animals, but we're talking much further distances as well. Sure smaller shot loses energy faster than larger shot, but that means it penetrates less drywall as well. It doesn't mean their opinion is any better than any of ours, but some like Sheriff Jim Wilson, and some Gunsite instructors recommend bird shot over buckshot for indoor use.

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Old 05-30-2018, 05:03 PM
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I agree with the buckshot,but, I do not believe he fired his gun or he missed!! Real world she will not walk away from #5, #6 12 ga @ 7 feet? I have seen 2 cases of people shot at 20-25 feet with 20 ga one with #5, the other with #6, both were DOA. Do you have a link to the video with sound? Be Safe,
Oh, she was hospitalized. Later in life, Rodney King was also shot with birdshot in a street altercation. But he was high on PCP (again) and simply got on his bike, pedaled home, and passed out on the sofa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diyj98
I can't figure out why smaller shot is so ineffective at room size range, yet I've killed so many animals at 40 and 50 yards so easily. I know they weren't human sized animals, but we're talking much further distances as well.
Here's a fun experiment. What's easier to kill, a chicken or a human being?

Humans are built tougher. We have stronger bones. We have thicker skin. We wear clothes that protect us. And compared to a small animal, our important stuff is much further away from the surface.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Brown View Post
If you're worried about over-penetration, why on earth are you loading slugs in your shotgun? You DO realize slugs are intended to increase the effective range of a shotgun, don't you?

Why do you have a supposed defensive shotgun sitting around with an empty chamber?

Why do you have a shotgun set up for defensive use loaded half-way with bird shot?

Do yourself a favor, and load your shotgun to its full capacity with 00 Buck, preferably a low recoil version, and put the safety on. At that point, your shotgun will be ready for action.

Don't forget to take it to the range for practice!
Personally, I keep my home defense shotgun with chamber empty for two reasons:

1. Much less chance of unintentional discharge. With 9 grandchildren and 3 great-grandchildren this is important to me. In order to make the shotgun go "bang" requires that the slide be pulled fully to the rear, then returned fully to the front, chambering a round. Before that can happen the slide release must be engaged. Then, after a round is chambered, the safety must be disengaged. Only then will the shotgun be able to fire a round. Not a complicated series of events, but a series that must be known and practiced, so much less likely to happen without intent or by unauthorized little hands.

2. As a cop I was trained to keep the shotgun with magazine loaded, chamber empty, action cocked, safety engaged. This has been referred to as "cruiser ready", meaning that the shotgun could be safely handled and transported without undue concern. Again, a person not trained or familiar with that particular shotgun would have a little learning curve to overcome before the shotgun becomes imminently dangerous to anyone.

My 870 Remington can be made ready to shoot by trained and experienced hands in only a couple of seconds. Hit the slide release, rack the slide, release the safety, ready to make a mess.

Training and practice count for a lot. We tend to fight the way we train, so we need to practice until everything becomes second nature, requiring no conscious thought or deliberation.

Again, your method may vary.
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:21 PM
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Oh, she was hospitalized. Later in life, Rodney King was also shot with birdshot in a street altercation. But he was high on PCP (again) and simply got on his bike, pedaled home, and passed out on the sofa.
How far was Rodny when he was shot? I'm betting a heck of a lot further than the distance most of us could ever shoot inside our homes.



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Here's a fun experiment. What's easier to kill, a chicken or a human being?

Humans are built tougher. We have stronger bones. We have thicker skin. We wear clothes that protect us. And compared to a small animal, our important stuff is much further away from the surface.
Here's another experiment. Test that birdshot penetration on ballistic gel at chicken ranges (the 40 to 50 yards) versus home defense ranges (10 feet to 30 feet at most?). Wait, I believe that was just done in the Gunblast video posted above.

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Old 05-30-2018, 08:31 PM
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I use regular length low recoil 00 shells in my Shockwave . . .
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:44 PM
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I sure hope your "local constabulary" doesn't carry #6 shot in their duty shotguns...

Look, heed what others have already mentioned. Birdshot is NOT for dangerous home invaders who will we close and who might be heavily drugged or enraged. Just NO.

I use #1 BUCKshot for HD work. 16 pellets of .30 cal round balls at 1250 feet per second. Penetrates a bit less than 00 buck, but much larger overall permanent cavity damage.

I do not recommend mini shells for defense work. They require adapters to feed properly in most shotguns and your first shot effectiveness (you may only get one shot off) is notably reduced. They are largely a gimic for our purposes.
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Old 05-30-2018, 08:57 PM
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This subject's come up a number of times.

I believe too many people just overthink this, almost to the point of obsession.

Keep it simple.

"Double-aught and number four,
Will blow that bad guy out the door."
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Old 05-30-2018, 09:59 PM
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A smarter guy would not engage, but I will offer up a reminder of the Box O’Truth for somewhat empirical evidence to debate, especially on penetration of gypsum wallboard-
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
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How far was Rodny when he was shot? I'm betting a heck of a lot further than the distance most of us could ever shoot inside our homes.
Not particularly far. Unfortunately, all we have to go on is his own hazy memory.

Quote:
Here's another experiment. Test that birdshot penetration on ballistic gel at chicken ranges (the 40 to 50 yards) versus home defense ranges (10 feet to 30 feet at most?). Wait, I believe that was just done in the Gunblast video posted above.
Couple things here.

(1) The material in the Gunblast video was some meat. Pretty easy to tear a steak apart with your hands. Not as easy to shred live human flesh.

(2) Ballistic gelatin tests for birdshot in the #8-#5 range show penetration of 2-4 inches at 7-10 yards. That's bare gelatin, as well. The problem is that despite the velocity of individual pellets, they don't have a lot of mass. At #2 sizes, you get to around 10". Buckshot in the #4 and larger size gets you to 15-20".

(3) Ballistic gelatin is misinterpreted frequently, just as you have. People like looking at "wound channels" and "stretch cavities" because it confirms what they already think and they like pretty pictures. Which is sort've silly, because a block of gelatin is just a dead, uniform mass, about as far from living tissue as you can imagine. The real story is in the recovered projectiles and where they ended up. Did they all expand consistently? What depth did they penetrate? Measuring penetrative depth doesn't tell you how far a projectile will penetrate an attacker (remember: bones, skin, living stuff), but it does give you a reasonable way to compare penetration between projectiles of different diameters, weights, and velocities. Presuming, of course, that your ballistic gelatin is uniform and consistent, which it basically never is on a test-to-test basis.

TL;DR--I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either one, but if you made me use a shotgun, I'd load with buck all day long.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
I can't figure out why smaller shot is so ineffective at room size range, yet I've killed so many animals at 40 and 50 yards so easily. I know they weren't human sized animals, but we're talking much further distances as well. Sure smaller shot loses energy faster than larger shot, but that means it penetrates less drywall as well. It doesn't mean their opinion is any better than any of ours, but some like Sheriff Jim Wilson, and some Gunsite instructors recommend bird shot over buckshot for indoor use.
I have had #6 bounce off wet feathers of pheasant @ 50-60ft. Sure the bird went down but not dead. That is IC choke too. Most HD 12g have riot or open chokes, further reducing the pattern & limiting impact as you re relying on the small shot for penetration. Avg pattern from a riot choke is 1" per yard. So across a room, 6"-7" pattern of small shot will not penetrate a rib cage 100% effectively. Birdshot for birds or if you just want to piss off your attacker.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:17 PM
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My HD shotgun load for not over-penetrating neighbors walls is the first two rounds are Federal FliteControl #4 buck. If the threat still exists after that, the rest of the rounds are Federal FliteControl #00 Buck.

The Federal FliteControl wad keeps pellets in a fist sized group at in-the-house distances, reducing the chance of collateral damage as long as you hit your target.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:52 PM
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Good ol’ 00 buck in the tube, slugs on the stock sleeve.

The Seattle Pacific University shooter in the video used a Browning over/under loaded with 7 1/2 shot. He shot 19 year old Sarah Williams in the upper chest from only a few feet away. She turned around and walked away. She said she felt heat and a surge of energy pushing her away. She sat down and a fellow student came to help her. Then she called her Mom and waited for the cops.

She was severely injured, with a collapsed right lung and arterial bleeding. She recovered and testified against her attacker.

He had a killed a male student a few minutes before with a near-contact shot to the head, and was convicted of murder.

‘I was in a lot of pain’: Victim testifies about Seattle Pacific University shooting | The Seattle Times
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Old 06-02-2018, 12:34 PM
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Study terminal ballistics appropriate to self-defense or duty use against assaultive humans, so you know what the desired target areas and needed performance are. Without that, decisions are guesses and success is a matter of chance.

I don't worry a lot about over-penetration, as with most weapons useful for personal defense, it is not a major issue and far less of an issue than MISSING. My shotgun is loaded with slugs, because my academy taught that as primary for shotguns and that buck was a specialized load for limited purposes. It also has a light and an Aimpoint - because target ID and hits at the desired locations are not optional. While I do have 000 buck in the case, it is not as flexible for most purposes as the slugs. If you are dedicated to buckshot, make sure you pattern it out to realistic distances with your shotgun. A friend's agency has about 300 issued 14" shotguns (best choice in a shotgun for a patrol car). They are individually issued, and each officer has to pattern their shotgun on the range.

Side note: I presume the OP does not actually mean a short barrel - he means a standard 18" barrel. (It's short to the Fudds and the like, but I can't imagine any use for a longer barrel.) I've shot trap with an 18" 590, and while I got cussed up and down over the concussion as it was modified by Vang, I did better with it than I could with a nice shotgun designed for trap or hunting fields.

Federal's #1 low recoil FliteControl has tested out the best in terms of terminal ballistics among buck loads, and if I was replacing ammo now I would get it instead of the 000. I am amply confident about how my shotgun will work at 15 yards with 00 or 000, so I do not worry about it. Birdshot? No. Hell no. A zillion times no. I would not want to get shot with it, but that does not make it a good choice for personal defense.
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Old 06-02-2018, 07:48 PM
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I use #1 BUCKshot for HD work. 16 pellets of .30 cal round balls at 1250 feet per second. Penetrates a bit less than 00 buck, but much larger overall permanent cavity damage.
A .30 cal round ball weighs about 40 grains. Imagine shooting a .30 cal, 40 grain ball out of a revolver at 1,250 fps. How effective would you expect it to be? No very. Another dozen inadequate balls won't improve it. Go 00.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:52 PM
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I'm not going to argue about what you want to put in your home
defense shot gun. I will tell you this, a standard hi brass load of
#6s -11/4oz is not going to be a walk away wound. It looked like
shot was made at 10' or so. Anyone who has much experience
with shotguns would laugh at this. This guy either missed or was
using one of the gimmick loads. It is true the smaller and lighter
the shot the less penatration you will have. A normally dressed
human at 10' would suffer terrible wounds. I don't know why they
keep peddling the myth. I have seen deer killed with #6s at
10'a15' and it almost took their head off. I think there is some
video of practical test on You Tube, is not drawing conclusions
from a video where they don't know what guy is shooting or if
he made a center shot. Maybe these guys have stock in buck
shot sales.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:06 PM
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I dunno, she walked away, and went to the hospital, with a bunch of little birdshot holes in her.

Can birdshot be effective? Probably.

Is it reliable? No. Which is the point.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:14 PM
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00 Buck, that's the ticket right there. Plant one in the BG's chest, call the police. I't like getting hit with 9 .357 bullets at once.
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:45 PM
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00 Buck, that's the ticket right there. Plant one in the BG's chest, call the police. I't like getting hit with 9 .357 bullets at once.
Not really. I have shot two deer with buckshot. Both dropped like being hit with a sledge hammer.

Both got up. One took one more shot; the other took two more shots.

Do not assume your job will be done with one shot. Might be, but don't assume it.
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Old 06-03-2018, 05:00 PM
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For inside the house distances I like #4 Buckshot in a pump.
Outdoors or at longer range, 00 Buckshot is preferred.
Both in 2 3/4 " length shells. They feed best in my pumps.

Those little mini shell...not sure what they are for. Maybe a reduced load in a single or double barrel. They don't look like they will feed in any pump I own.
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Old 06-03-2018, 05:35 PM
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00 Buck, that's the ticket right there. Plant one in the BG's chest, call the police. I't like getting hit with 9 .357 bullets at once.
Actually, at point-blank range it is more like being hit with multiple .32ACP's, at best. 00-buckshot has neither the weight, nor the sectional density, of any common pistol bullet. Depending on the delivery vehicle (shotgun, cartridge design, etc) each individual 00 pellet might be little more effective than a .22LR. Lacking significant sectional density, the pellets lose velocity and energy relatively quickly.

I would not want to be on the receiving end of either, but I seriously doubt that I would know the difference between a goose load and a buckshot load when fired within the confines of a large room. Either one would make a serious and bloody mess.

I'll stick with my Federal 2-3/4" Magnum 1-1/4 oz. BB-shot loads for short range defensive use inside the city limits.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:16 PM
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My HD shotgun is an elderly Stevens twelve gauge side-by-side, barrels sawed to twenty inches. The short barrels originally were for faster handling when hunting in heavy brush, but they are handy for indoor use too.

The load is full-strength #4 buck. At inside-my-apartment range I think it will be adequate. First salvo will be the FBI .38 Special +P load.

Yes, I'm old-fashioned.
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Old 06-04-2018, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
I dunno, she walked away, and went to the hospital, with a bunch of little birdshot holes in her.

Can birdshot be effective? Probably.

Is it reliable? No. Which is the point.
I know two guys who literally walked away from close-range birdshot wounds.

One was BB goose shot to the chest at a yard distance in winter hunting clothes. Has lead pellets still working their way out a decade and a half later.

The other guy took both barrels to the chest cavity. Nearly contact distance, leaving significant holes (divots today after a few years of healing).

Both guys nearly died with collapsed lungs but were able to load themselves into vehicles for a trip to the hospitalon their own two feet. Both look to be in good shape today (both are weightlifting guys) but admit they are reminded daily of the suck. I would not want to be shot by birdshot, but both these guys are happy it wasnít larger shot.
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Old 06-05-2018, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
Personally, I keep my home defense shotgun with chamber empty for two reasons:

1. Much less chance of unintentional discharge. With 9 grandchildren and 3 great-grandchildren this is important to me. In order to make the shotgun go "bang" requires that the slide be pulled fully to the rear, then returned fully to the front, chambering a round. Before that can happen the slide release must be engaged. Then, after a round is chambered, the safety must be disengaged. Only then will the shotgun be able to fire a round. Not a complicated series of events, but a series that must be known and practiced, so much less likely to happen without intent or by unauthorized little hands.

2. As a cop I was trained to keep the shotgun with magazine loaded, chamber empty, action cocked, safety engaged. This has been referred to as "cruiser ready", meaning that the shotgun could be safely handled and transported without undue concern. Again, a person not trained or familiar with that particular shotgun would have a little learning curve to overcome before the shotgun becomes imminently dangerous to anyone.

My 870 Remington can be made ready to shoot by trained and experienced hands in only a couple of seconds. Hit the slide release, rack the slide, release the safety, ready to make a mess.

Training and practice count for a lot. We tend to fight the way we train, so we need to practice until everything becomes second nature, requiring no conscious thought or deliberation.

Again, your method may vary.
If all of your defensive firearms are kept in this condition; chamber empty, then I suppose that's what works best for you. If this is a condition only applied to your defensive shotgun, it defies logic, but to each their own. Carry on.
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Old 06-05-2018, 07:18 PM
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Everyone I know with an LE background does the same thing with a shotgun or AR - "cruiser condition" - unlocked, empty chamber, cycle it as you grab it. Pistols are always carried with a round chambered. I'm used to it.
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Old 06-06-2018, 01:16 PM
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"Double-aught and number four,
Will blow that bad guy out the door."
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm50 View Post
This guy either missed or was
using one of the gimmick loads.
Here the victim is, a big leather-clad, muscle-bound recent parolee bent on mayhem:



Oh wait a minute. She's a 19 year old college student who was going to her English Lit class.

The gun was a full-length Browning over/under 12 gauge, with regular # 7 1/2 shot. Distance was maybe ten feet, and she took the whole load in the right upper chest. Then she walked away and called her Mom.

She had a collapsed lung and arterial damage and a long recovery.

" Williams took a direct hit when a man opened fire with a shotgun at the university June 5. She was critically wounded and had to undergo five hours of emergency surgery. She has been in the hospital ever since."

SPU shooting victim Sarah Williams discharged from hospital | Q13 FOX News

‘I was in a lot of pain’: Victim testifies about Seattle Pacific University shooting | The Seattle Times

The shooter did kill a male student just prior to this with the same gun, but that was a near-contact shot to the head.
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Old 06-06-2018, 03:00 PM
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I'm willing to bet that neither was ready, willing or able to continue a home invasion after receiving those rounds . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by HardToHandle View Post
I know two guys who literally walked away from close-range birdshot wounds.

One was BB goose shot to the chest at a yard distance in winter hunting clothes. Has lead pellets still working their way out a decade and a half later.

The other guy took both barrels to the chest cavity. Nearly contact distance, leaving significant holes (divots today after a few years of healing).

Both guys nearly died with collapsed lungs but were able to load themselves into vehicles for a trip to the hospitalon their own two feet. Both look to be in good shape today (both are weightlifting guys) but admit they are reminded daily of the suck. I would not want to be shot by birdshot, but both these guys are happy it wasnít larger shot.
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Old 06-06-2018, 03:27 PM
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I’m for everybody loading what they want.

If a prosecutor were to ask me why I used buckshot, I’d say its what the cops use. And what I used when I was an LEO.

The point is if an unsuspecting 19 year old girl can take that shot and then turn around and walk away, what could a home-invading thug do before he walks away and calls his Mom?

(This whole idea of prosecutors grilling someone over their choice of ammo gets quite a bit more attention than it deserves. I have investigated scores of shootings and ammo choice has never come up. I’m sure it has somewhere, but its not the big boogyman gunrag writers make it out to be.)
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:31 AM
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I have seen guys that buy the 100 pks of #71/2 target loads, because they are cheap. They use them for everything and
aren't to successful even on rabbits unless very close. They
shoot squirrel with a FC, 12g and when skinned shot comes
rolling out from under the hide. Without the mini loads they
are the weakest loads you can buy.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
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I have seen guys that buy the 100 pks of #71/2 target loads, because they are cheap. They use them for everything and
aren't to successful even on rabbits unless very close. They
shoot squirrel with a FC, 12g and when skinned shot comes
rolling out from under the hide. Without the mini loads they
are the weakest loads you can buy.
I don't know what brand of birdshot this guy used. It was enough to blast through the skull of the young man he killed.

Use whatever you want. But its time we gave up the "birdshot at close range is as good as anything" line.

Has anyone been injured by a round of buckshot fired in a house that penetrated a wall? Or a slug? If so, I'd like to see it. If not, what is everyone worried about?
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:11 PM
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Has anyone been injured by a round of buckshot fired in a house that penetrated a wall? Or a slug? If so, I'd like to see it. If not, what is everyone worried about?
I'm glad someone finally mentioned that.

I don't know of a shotgun round in existence that will penetrate the wall of my house, travel x-number of feet or yards, and penetrate the walls of any of my neighbors' homes.
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
(This whole idea of prosecutors grilling someone over their choice of ammo gets quite a bit more attention than it deserves. I have investigated scores of shootings and ammo choice has never come up. Iím sure it has somewhere, but its not the big boogyman gunrag writers make it out to be.)
Ditto. I've worked in our local prosecutor's office last eleven years. Had a few shootings in that time, several that were ruled lawful self defense, some got prosecuted. Have been part of discussions during the decision making process. Not once has the question of what type ammo was used come up.

OP, to your question, you did ask what we think. Here's my two cents. If you think you need slugs in your home defense shotgun, you might consider learning to select a slug. It's how our local constabulary are trained. YMMV
The Select Slug Drill - Sheriff Jim WilsonSheriff Jim Wilson
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:56 PM
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. . . Not once has the question of what type ammo was used come up. . .
Never in 32 years, except to ask "Did he have a box of the same stuff somewhere?"

So as to eliminate the possibility that somebody else took the shot. Seen lots of dead bodies. Never once really cared what bullet killed them, so long as it matched the rest of them in the pistol we thought was used . . .
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:23 PM
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Federal L.E. Flite-Control #1 buck
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:53 PM
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My experience in heat of the moment situations is that you are not going to be remembering what round is chambered in that situation anyway, you'll be in full adrenalin dump mode and pulling the trigger as fast as you can get your sights on the target. A slug seems silly if you're worried about over penetration. Go with larger shot, #2 or larger or low velocity (tactical) buckshot.

I would avoid the flite control at HD distances. It patterns around a fist size for me at 20 yards in open chokes. Regular buckshot gives a little more spread, like dinner plate, at that distance. But you want the low velocity stuff.

Also remember you might be shooting through a section/corner of interior wall (on purpose) or furniture (on purpose) to get the bad guy. What you can bet on is he will not be standing there, square to you, offering himself up like a target at a shooting range. You definitely want more than birdshot penetration, in my opinion. But less than slugs. Which seems to be the general consensus.
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