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Old 05-29-2018, 10:18 PM
Wagonmaster Wagonmaster is offline
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What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case  
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Default What should be the appropriate thing to do in this case

Referring to the person who walked up to the Oklahoma City restaurant and fired several shots at the customers injuring several then was killed by two by-standers in the parking lot who ran back to their cars and returned with their hand guns.

So far those two by-standers have been herolded as heros since the shooter was discovered to be mentally disturbed and it wasn't known where he was headed next. The news reports don't describe how they knew what precisely had happened and was happening, other than the shooter had been shooting at restaurant customers.

Was this the appropriate thing for the 2 by-standers to do, and would you do the same thing? How did they determine immediately that the person was the shooter, and what if one or more of the shots fired by the by-standers had ricocheted and hit someone else?

I always Carry whenever out shopping or eating out but always wonder just what I would do in a case where I wasn't directly threatened but others were.
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Old 05-29-2018, 10:28 PM
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Well, let me ask you this, if you saw other people being shot or stabbed or saw a woman being raped, or 2-3 beating on 1, you're not sure what you'd do? Do you really think you could just walk away and let them be killed?
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Wagonmaster View Post
Referring to the person who walked up to the Oklahoma City restaurant and fired several shots at the customers injuring several then was killed by two by-standers in the parking lot who ran back to their cars and returned with their hand guns.

So far those two by-standers have been herolded as heros since the shooter was discovered to be mentally disturbed and it wasn't known where he was headed next. The news reports don't describe how they knew what precisely had happened and was happening, other than the shooter had been shooting at restaurant customers.

Was this the appropriate thing for the 2 by-standers to do, and would you do the same thing? How did they determine immediately that the person was the shooter, and what if one or more of the shots fired by the by-standers had ricocheted and hit someone else?

I always Carry whenever out shopping or eating out but always wonder just what I would do in a case where I wasn't directly threatened but others were.
First my disclaimer. Iíve never been in a self defense shooting (or any shooting).

I donít know. Going to the car to get a weapon and coming back to fight makes Oklahoma messy.

Hereís how Iíve thought about it.

Personal violence against others:
Iím not the police. My default position is my first responsiblity is to protect my family, make it home to them each evening, and be a good witness if I see a crime. In one on one violence, you may not know who was the instigator and who is the defender.

Active Shooter:
A mass shooting is different. The bad guys should be obvious. They are the ones walking around killing innocent people. I subscribe to the ďescape/barricade/defendĒ approach. Itís a takeoff on run/hide/fight. Escape the situation with my family if I can. If I canít escape, barricade my self and family in a safe place. If I canít barricade myself and family somewhere, prepare to defend ourselves.

Oklahoma seems unique because the shooter was oblivious to what was going on around him and when the self defenders confronted him he didnít engage them. Heroic - yes. Wise - I donít know.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:27 AM
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My obligation is to protect me and mine and our future. If I have to defend myself to escape, I will. If I escape, I'm certainly not giving someone a second chance to shoot me . . .
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:31 AM
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I have been in a self defense shooting, three in fact, but I’m not a cop anymore and all of these were duty related situations and I was doing my job. In retirement I would have to evaluate each situation, as well as my ability to safely respond and resolve it, before acting. Every circumstance is different and should be carefully evaluated with an eye to not endangering innocents in an effort to stop a deadly threat.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:55 AM
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I would have to evaluate each situation, as well as my ability to safely respond and resolve it, before acting. Every circumstance is different and should be carefully evaluated with an eye to not endangering innocents in an effort to stop a deadly threat.

Ditto...... don't know enough fact about that incident.... thought I heard the shooter was shot in the parking lot???????????????
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:29 AM
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Default The Dangers Of Intervention

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
Alexander Pope

A CCW Permit is not a badge. The legal and lawful purpose of "civilian self-defense" is to "create distance and escape". If you decide to go beyond that you may find yourself stepping out from underneath the umbrella of protection that "civilian self-defense" laws provide. In that situation you need to be very selective, very careful, and think very hard before you act.

Evan Marshall's brief commentary, link below, is pertinent to this topic.

"I spent 20 years going in harms way for total strangers. Would I do that today? Probably not. Sound callous? Well, would you be willing to jeopardize everything you own and your family’s security for a total stranger? Would you be willing to lose your home, your cars, and your retirement to play Knight of the Round Table?

Even if the situation is exactly as it appears and you’re even in accordance with the law, you need to understand one simple fact-the law is what the local prosecutor says it is. Do you really want to spend 7 years in jail waiting for an appeal to be heard and your conviction overturned?

I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When I’m away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them. Are there circumstances where I would intervene to help a stranger? Yes, but such intervention would be on my terms at my pace. I am not going to jump into a situation with gun drawn."
Evan Marshall

Read Full Commentary: The Dangers Of Intervention
Commentary by Evan Marshall
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:37 AM
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According to the news, the shooter was a security guard and had a license for his handgun. In theory at least, all three involved were "good guys with guns."
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Old 05-30-2018, 10:39 AM
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According to the news, the shooter was a security guard and had a license for his handgun. In theory at least, all three involved were "good guys with guns."
Well, once a "good guy with a gun" starts shooting at other good guys, his status instantly changes . . .
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Old 05-30-2018, 11:37 AM
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About two months ago A very small rural town in Florida ( near gansiville) Two Sheriffis officers where shot and killed threw a Resturaunt window . My answer is yes I would shoot them those bent on doing harm to others
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Old 05-30-2018, 12:43 PM
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Your account of the events is wildly inaccurate based on the written OKC police statement and the KOCO TV reporting.
All three people involved were CLEET trained and certified, and one of the "good guys" was a reserve deputy. Nobody ran out of the restaurant to get a gun. The shooter fired into the restaurant and ran out, where he was ordered to put down his weapon, but instead tried to shoot the other two who had armed themselves and saw him come out of the restaurant holding a gun.
Now ask a relevant question, like what would you do if you had heard shots while you are in the parking lot, and a person came out of the restaurant and aimed a gun at you? You are LEO trained.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:08 PM
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Iím a retired cop, and was lucky enough to have survived several shootings in my career. Even though my ID says retired now and I no longer have peace officer powers or an expectation to act, I could not stand by and do nothing in a situation like this.

Iíve carried a full size .45 ACP for most all of my 32 year career, the last seven years as a Detective Sergeant in a plain clothes assignment. The first few years of retirement, I enjoyed carrying J frames as my primary handgun, rather than their previous roll as a back up. With the increase in mass shootings , Iím back to carrying a Commander size 1911.

Carrying a concealed handgun doesnít guarantee you wonít be the first or second victim of an active shooter. It probably will keep you from being the third or even 23 victim of such tragedies.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:15 PM
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Without knowing the precise facts but just going by what I read here I think it is fair to say that what those folks did is authorized under normal American common law, namely, to come to the aid of third parties who are under immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. That means anyone, anywhere, not just CHL holders.

It also means using any means necessary. A gun, a knife, stick, baseball bat, garbage can cover, rock, fists, or body tackle.

But sticking to lethal force with guns -

Suppose you're in Texas, as I am, and you can legally carry a concealed weapon in your motor vehicle without any kind of permit. If you see a guy shooting through windows don't you think that automatically justifies your reaching for your car gun to neutralize the threat? The guy is, by definition, as pointed out by Muss Muggins, a bad guy. Do you think you have to await the time when the bad guy points his weapon in your direction? Well, the law is clear - you do not have to await that time.

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Texas Penal Code

Chapter 9. Justifications Excluding Criminal Responsibility

SUBCHAPTER C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON.

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.
No copyright.

The sections referenced above Section 9.33 are, of course, the statutory self defense provisions in the Penal Code.

Just FYI - nobody says you have to but if you feel like there is an immediate need to act you are justified.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:32 PM
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Without knowing the precise facts but just going by what I read here ...................



Suppose you're in Texas, as I am, and you can legally carry a concealed weapon in your motor vehicle without any kind of permit. If you see a guy shooting through windows don't you think that automatically justifies your reaching for your car gun to neutralize the threat?



No copyright.

The sections referenced above Section 9.33 are, of course, the statutory self defense provisions in the Penal Code.

Just FYI - nobody says you have to but if you feel like there is an immediate need to act you are justified.
I would answer NO!......... call 911? yes......... move to safety? Yes

Shoot some guy...... in the back? NO!

See there's the rub in these situations....... you're "driving by in your car"....you see guy is shooting into ''windows"....you could be just witnessing "vandalism" or destruction of his own property ...... stupid? yes but that's generally not a serious crime either.

You can't just "feel"......you need a 'reasonable belief......" your facts "as stated" don't rise to that level IMHO.......especially if you shoot him in the back!

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Old 05-30-2018, 05:34 PM
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Well, let me ask you this, if you saw other people being shot or stabbed or saw a woman being raped, or 2-3 beating on 1, you're not sure what you'd do? Do you really think you could just walk away and let them be killed?
The issue with this direct black or white question is it is rarely black or white. I can count on my hands the number of scenarios where I know what I see is what is going happening. A guy walks into a restaurant & starts shooting, pretty much I know what I see. A beating or alleged rape, well do you really know what you see is what is happening?
So for me, my ccw is to protect me & mine. It will often be best to be a good witness & call 911. If you can be 110% sure what you are seeing is what you think it is, then stepping in would be the noble thing to do, BUT there is always the chance it goes sideways & you are into the Zimmerman affect. CCW is a huge responsibility that I am afraid many have not thought thru when they think they want to carry a gun.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:42 PM
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Your account of the events is wildly inaccurate based on the written OKC police statement and the KOCO TV reporting.
All three people involved were CLEET trained and certified, and one of the "good guys" was a reserve deputy. Nobody ran out of the restaurant to get a gun. The shooter fired into the restaurant and ran out, where he was ordered to put down his weapon, but instead tried to shoot the other two who had armed themselves and saw him come out of the restaurant holding a gun.
Now ask a relevant question, like what would you do if you had heard shots while you are in the parking lot, and a person came out of the restaurant and aimed a gun at you? You are LEO trained.
Devil's advocate: You hear shot fired, no idea what it is about. You are in civis, man runs out of the bldg, carrying a gun & you challenge him to stop. He attempts to defend himself & you shoot & kill him.
The man had just defended himself against two armed robbers inside & has come outside to wait for police & still carrying his gun. Another guy points a gun at him & he feels the threat is still there. You can see what I mean by you rarely know 100% of the time what you see is what is happening, especially if you are not a direct victim of the attack. CCW, no uni or even badge as good guy ID, you run the risk of being a target or shooting an innocent.
I am glad the outcome in OK was positive but it could just as easily gone sideways too.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:06 PM
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A quote from retired LAPD officer Robert Kolesar....

"I figure I'm the person ultimately responsible for my family's safety; that's why I still carry a gun. I'm not working the streets anymore, I'm not really concerned about what people do to each other. I won't get involved in something that's none of my business. This may sound unduly harsh or selfish, but 24 years as a cop has taught me most incidents I've observed may not be what they appear to be initially- and shouldn't rise to the level of my armed intervention. Staying out of conflict is as important as knowing how to confront someone. I'm happily prepared to call 911 or just be a good witness."
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:51 PM
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The only thing less wise than asking for deadly force advise online is to give deadly force advice online.
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:59 PM
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A CCW Permit is not a badge. The legal and lawful purpose of "civilian self-defense" is to "create distance and escape"....
That is a falacy and absolutely NOT true( Citizens have the constitutional right to make a felony arrest), but I'm glad you stated your stand, so I'll know where you'll be when the SHTF.,...in Florida, we do NOT have to retreat and I will NOT. IF there's innocents in the area, so will I be. They'll have to kill me.

I WANT to die saving an innocent life....just think of all the other ways folks die, and we all HAVE to do it. That's my choice. YMMV
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:07 PM
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Devil's advocate: You hear shot fired, no idea what it is about. You are in civis, man runs out of the bldg, carrying a gun & you challenge him to stop. He attempts to defend himself & you shoot & kill him.
The man had just defended himself against two armed robbers inside & has come outside to wait for police & still carrying his gun. Another guy points a gun at him & he feels the threat is still there. You can see what I mean by you rarely know 100% of the time what you see is what is happening, especially if you are not a direct victim of the attack. CCW, no uni or even badge as good guy ID, you run the risk of being a target or shooting an innocent....

That is exactly why I have decided, that as SOON as stop a threat, in one area and go to another area( outside or inside) I will immediately re-holster. I practice drawing and presenting my weapon extensively, if needed.

The fact is, there's ALOT more cases of folks getting shot, by police, like that very way. Btw, you make a good argument to get a CCW badge....lol Cops are trained to not shoot badges and NO, that is NOT impersonating a cop, that is making sure you, as a CCW and good guy, don't get mistaken for a BG and get shot by the "good guys".
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:11 PM
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The issue with this direct black or white question is it is rarely black or white. I can count on my hands the number of scenarios where I know what I see is what is going happening. A guy walks into a restaurant & starts shooting, pretty much I know what I see. A beating or alleged rape, well do you really know what you see is what is happening?
So for me, my ccw is to protect me & mine. It will often be best to be a good witness & call 911. If you can be 110% sure what you are seeing is what you think it is, then stepping in would be the noble thing to do, BUT there is always the chance it goes sideways & you are into the Zimmerman affect. CCW is a huge responsibility that I am afraid many have not thought thru when they think they want to carry a gun.

Well each to his own, I'm too hard headed to do that. I was driving around once and saw a guy beating on a girl out in their front yard, before I knew what was happening, I was out of my car and had that dude in a rear choke, begging for a breath. I held him 'til the cops got there. I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to have to face our Lord and explain why I shied away from helping a brother or sister in trouble with evil. YMMV


Btw Zimmerman is a hero and a Patriot and that was a good shoot and why self defense laws are written.
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:12 PM
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That is a falacy and absolutely NOT true( Citizens have the constitutional right to make a felony arrest), but I'm glad you stated your stand, so I'll know where you'll be when the SHTF.,...in Florida, we do NOT have to retreat and I will NOT. IF there's innocents in the area, so will I be. They'll have to kill me.

I WANT to die saving an innocent life....just think of all the other ways folks die, and we all HAVE to do it. That's my choice. YMMV
Dude, I hope you're not where I'm vacationing. I consider that mindset dangerous on several levels . . .

(Edit: IBTL)
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Old 05-30-2018, 07:15 PM
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The only thing less wise than asking for deadly force advise online is to give deadly force advice online.
Good advice...................
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:54 PM
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That is a falacy and absolutely NOT true( Citizens have the constitutional right to make a felony arrest), but I'm glad you stated your stand, so I'll know where you'll be when the SHTF.,...in Florida, we do NOT have to retreat and I will NOT. IF there's innocents in the area, so will I be. They'll have to kill me.

I WANT to die saving an innocent life....just think of all the other ways folks die, and we all HAVE to do it. That's my choice. YMMV
That will depend on what jurisdiction you are in. Again, you do not have a crystal ball, you rarely know what you see is what is happening, unless you are the target or victim.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:59 PM
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Well each to his own, I'm too hard headed to do that. I was driving around once and saw a guy beating on a girl out in their front yard, before I knew what was happening, I was out of my car and had that dude in a rear choke, begging for a breath. I held him 'til the cops got there. I'm not afraid to die, I'm afraid to have to face our Lord and explain why I shied away from helping a brother or sister in trouble with evil. YMMV


Btw Zimmerman is a hero and a Patriot and that was a good shoot and why self defense laws are written.
You truely don't know what you dont know. Zimmerman's shoot was a good one, BUT he prompted it by pursuing Martin. Anyone following the case can see he did just about everything wrong & it lead to a shooting. Hero, hardly.
Man beating a woman. Ok. You round the corner & see a guy beating a woman. You pull out your gat & order him to stop & maybe you go ahead & shoot him. What was actually happening; woman pulled a knife on the guy & assaulted him. He uses force to take the knife away & she is resisting to the last breath. So what did you see & what was actually happening? THis isn't made up stuff, why LEO don't just shoot everyone, even they cant be 100% sure what they see is what is happening.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:01 PM
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That is exactly why I have decided, that as SOON as stop a threat, in one area and go to another area( outside or inside) I will immediately re-holster. I practice drawing and presenting my weapon extensively, if needed.

The fact is, there's ALOT more cases of folks getting shot, by police, like that very way. Btw, you make a good argument to get a CCW badge....lol Cops are trained to not shoot badges and NO, that is NOT impersonating a cop, that is making sure you, as a CCW and good guy, don't get mistaken for a BG and get shot by the "good guys".
And that auto response is likely to get you killed by the extra bad guy just waiting to see someone do that. No, gun stays out until the threat is determined to be over. When is that, one attacker or three? Well that is the $100 question isn't it.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:17 PM
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So far those two by-standers have been herolded as heros since the shooter was discovered to be mentally disturbed and it wasn't known where he was headed next.other than the shooter had been shooting at restaurant customers.

Was this the appropriate thing for the 2 by-standers to do, and would you do the same thing? How did they determine immediately that the person was the shooter, and what if one or more of the shots fired by the by-standers had ricocheted and hit someone else?

I always Carry whenever out shopping or eating out but always wonder just what I would do in a case where I wasn't directly threatened but others were.

Everything worked out, no others were injured. Moot point...

Or stand by and watch others die when you could stop it. They did good.

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Old 05-31-2018, 05:42 PM
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My obligation is to protect me and mine and our future. If I have to defend myself to escape, I will. If I escape, I'm certainly not giving someone a second chance to shoot me . . .
I'm with Muss on this one. I'm not in Vietnam any more. It's not incumbent on me to "run toward the gunfire." Many years ago, I took on the responsibility to secure a CPL to defend me & mine. If someone else decides against taking that step for whatever reason, it's on them and not up to me to come to their rescue.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:54 PM
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Back when I was “running toward the gunfire”, the city I worked for had an army of lawyers, a bazillion dollars of insurance and a legal responsibility to defend me criminally and civilly, because I had a sworn duty to get involved. I also usually had a reasonably good idea what was going on before I arrived. Today I have none of the above. Are there scenarios in which I would risk everything for a stranger? Sure, but there must be a lot more to the story in Oklahoma, because when I read the initial news reports my reaction was nope, not me.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:06 PM
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Dude, I hope you're not where I'm vacationing. I consider that mindset dangerous on several levels . . .

(Edit: IBTL)

Don't worry I ain't lost nuthin' in MO. Btw the Castle Doctrine has been in Florida for over 15 yrs and guess what, NO problems.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:11 PM
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Don't worry I ain't lost nuthin' in MO. Btw the Castle Doctrine has been in Florida for over 15 yrs and guess what, NO problems.
Castle Doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with interjecting yourself into someone else's problems . . .
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:16 PM
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You truely don't know what you dont know.
I treuly dont? I bet you I do.

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Zimmerman's shoot was a good one, BUT he prompted it by pursuing Martin. Anyone following the case can see he did just about everything wrong & it lead to a shooting. Hero, hardly.
You're in Kali, This is Florida, a whole 'nother Country, how can you POSSIBLY know about that? FYI, (pay attention): HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, IT WAS HIS JOB TO INVESTIGATE SOMEONE PEEPING INTO PEOPLES' BACK WINDOWS. He was WELL within his rights. He was breaking contact with Martin and going back to his vehicle, to wait for the cops( who he had on the phone) when Martin jumped HIM.

I won't even respond to the other stuff, too ridiculous. We can "what if" all day long, don't mean a thing. I didn't pull a gun, didn't have one with me. IDK what you're talking about.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:18 PM
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Castle Doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with interjecting yourself into someone else's problems . . .
Absolutely it does, THAT INCIDENT WAS IN MY WAY HOME. Castle Doctrine allows you to defend yourself (and others) ANYWHERE you normally go in a week's time, JUST as if you're at home.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:20 PM
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And that auto response is likely to get you killed by the extra bad guy just waiting to see someone do that. No, gun stays out until the threat is determined to be over. When is that, one attacker or three? Well that is the $100 question isn't it.
Again, "likely", "what if", etc, etc. We can do this all day, but I have better things to do. I have a homestead and critters to tend to. YOU are the one who was the "Devil's Advocate"
remember? Sheesh. I was responding to THAT hypothetical situation.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:21 PM
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Absolutely it does, THAT INCIDENT WAS IN MY WAY HOME. Castle Doctrine allows you to defend yourself (and others) ANYWHERE you normally go in a week's time, JUST as if you're at home.
Duly noted. Done here. Good luck . . .
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:24 PM
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That is a falacy and absolutely NOT true( Citizens have the constitutional right to make a felony arrest),
Actually...it's "private person's", citizen or not--and they can
effect an arrest for misdemeanor or felony offenses.

BTW, employing deadly force is not tantamount to arrest...carry on.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:24 PM
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I'm with Muss on this one. I'm not in Vietnam any more. It's not incumbent on me to "run toward the gunfire." Many years ago, I took on the responsibility to secure a CPL to defend me & mine. If someone else decides against taking that step for whatever reason, it's on them and not up to me to come to their rescue.
NO one is talking about "running towards the fire", the subject is about being able to defend strangers, but choosing to save your own butt and leave them to die. Y'all may be able to do that, but I can't. YMMV
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:28 PM
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Absolutely it does, THAT INCIDENT WAS IN MY WAY HOME. Castle Doctrine allows you to defend yourself (and others) ANYWHERE you normally go in a week's time, JUST as if you're at home.
You're really wayyyy out in the weeds on castle doctrine.

It originates in English common law. Ever heard "a man's home,
is his castle"? It extended some protections and courtesies to
the common man's 'castle'...in observance of the significance of
one's abode, beyond his work place or other common area.

You're (probably) thinking of "no duty to retreat, in face of
deadly threat, prior to exercise of deadly force, in self-defence".

Totally different any-mules.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:38 PM
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You're really wayyyy out in the weeds on castle doctrine.

Nope, you are. The FLORIDA CD has NOTHING to do with "OLD English" anything, it has EVERYTHING to do with Florida case law.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
My obligation is to protect me and mine and our future. If I have to defend myself to escape, I will. If I escape, I'm certainly not giving someone a second chance to shoot me . . .
"Obligation" is not the issue. People do things for others all the time that they are not obligated to,
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:54 PM
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Listen, y'all ( those that are) need to realize what fallacies of arguments are. What some are doing is the classic, "discredit the messenger" by personal attack or trivializing or mocking the message, etc. Sorry, that won't work, all that means is that your side of the debate has no merit ( all you know is that you disagree, but don't know why), so you have to resort to that.. We're all supposed to be mature adults here.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:03 PM
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Actually...it's "private person's", citizen or not--and they can
effect an arrest for misdemeanor or felony offenses.
Well, IDK what state ( or World) you're talking about, but IN Florida it has to be a felony (preferably a forcible felony) and yes you HAVE to be a U.S. Citizen. I dare you to try and hold me for a misdemeanor. You better know the law better than me.


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BTW, employing deadly force is not tantamount to arrest...carry on.
???? Do you know what "tantamount " means? it means "the same as", so you said, "employing deadly force is not "the same as", arrest." Well of course it isn't, who said it was? I have NO idea what you're trying to say. Employing a citizens arrest is todetain them until the cops arrive and yes, some times it means using SOME kind of force. How deadly it is, is entirely up to them.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:36 PM
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[QUOTE=CCHGN;140054184]Listen, y'all ( those that are) need to realize what fallacies of arguments are. What some are doing is the classic, "discredit the messenger" by personal attack or trivializing or mocking the message, etc. Sorry, that won't work, all that means is that your side of the debate has no merit ( all you know is that you disagree, but don't know why), so you have to resort to that.. We're all supposed to be mature adults here.[/QUOTE

No reason to get butthurt. Some of us disagree. Opinions vary. No big deal.

Take a deep breath and relax.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:00 AM
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Dude. I really can't tell if you're a bleeding-heart anti-gun troll trying to drum up moronic quotes for you to repost on Reddit, or you actually think this stuff.

I find it really, really, really hard to believe anybody could actually think this stuff.

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Originally Posted by CCHGN View Post
I WANT to die saving an innocent life....just think of all the other ways folks die, and we all HAVE to do it. That's my choice. YMMV
Uh. I was planning on living another 40, maybe 50 years. I guess...



...mileage really does vary.

As for the other stuff:

(1) Castle Doctrine. I think I already explained it to you. Castle Doctrine covers your duty to retreat, or lack thereof, inside your own home. Stand Your Ground, which loosely refers to self-defense statutes which do not create an obligation to retreat in public spaces, is entirely different than Castle Doctrine.

(2) George Zimmerman was legally justified. George Zimmerman was also a total retard who managed to destroy his own life by dint of being a total retard. It doesn't matter if he's Captain of the Space Police, or what he has the right to do. He should have stayed in his stupid car. There's no such thing as a "good shoot". Even if you're such a morally-deplorable person that you think killing somebody is NBD, then you still wound up in a life-threatening situation that you conceivably could have avoided, a life-threatening situation in which you might not have prevailed, and put yourself through the post-event ordeal and all that that entails.

(3) Do you know what happens when you interject yourself into other people's domestic violence? Usually, they both turn on you. The battered wife/girlfriend decides to tell the cops about the crazy guy that attacked them for no reason. Also, "on your way home" is not "in your home".

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Old 06-01-2018, 01:12 AM
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Sounds like it's about time for everyone to take a deep cleansing breath, let it out slowly, and think really hard before saying anything more.
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:55 AM
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Time out for a reminder of the rules we all agreed to follow:


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Old 06-01-2018, 09:55 AM
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"Obligation" is not the issue. People do things for others all the time that they are not obligated to,
Agree with the latter statement, but as to the former, but I always keep in mind my most important obligation when taking or not taking action . . .
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:16 AM
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None of us knows jest exactly what we would do in a similar situation.

At the end of the day, I would hope, I would do the right thing.


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Old 06-01-2018, 03:34 PM
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I treuly dont? I bet you I do.



You're in Kali, This is Florida, a whole 'nother Country, how can you POSSIBLY know about that? FYI, (pay attention): HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, IT WAS HIS JOB TO INVESTIGATE SOMEONE PEEPING INTO PEOPLES' BACK WINDOWS. He was WELL within his rights. He was breaking contact with Martin and going back to his vehicle, to wait for the cops( who he had on the phone) when Martin jumped HIM.

I won't even respond to the other stuff, too ridiculous. We can "what if" all day long, don't mean a thing. I didn't pull a gun, didn't have one with me. IDK what you're talking about.
Being from kalif doesn't mean you can't see stupid. NW, does NOT MEAN ARMED security, does not mean investigate, here or Fl. You ID, call the cops, report, that us what NW means. He caused the shooting by pursing a suspect even after being warned against that. No, IMO, he wanted to use his gun, why else would he pursue anyone while carrying a gun??? That was the entire crux of the prosecution. FL has stand your ground but that does NOT mean you get to force that to happen, which, IMO, Zimm did just that. ID, call the cops, report what you see, stand down, he did not.
As to why you can't respond to the rest, you have no answers, plain to see. There is reality & there is fantasy. Most of us live in the real world.
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:20 PM
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"It's not what he doesn't know that bothers me, it's what he knows for sure just ain't so."

--- attributed to Will Rogers, referring to Herbert Hoover, by Walter Mondale
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WITHDRAWN: Case 1994 NKCA Club Knife & Case Stag Junior Scout Thiokol Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 10-13-2014 06:14 PM
If It's Not One Thing It's Another. In This Case It's' both Straightshooter2 The Lounge 12 09-26-2014 09:27 PM
The Choate case thing bothers me lately, a lot. GatorFarmer The Lounge 26 07-26-2011 08:24 PM
Good deals at Midway (Hogue grip, Cheap rifle case, pistol case) evnash Smith & Wesson M&P15 Rifles 3 01-30-2010 07:35 PM

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