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  #51  
Old 06-12-2018, 11:03 PM
HardToHandle HardToHandle is offline
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Originally Posted by white cloud View Post
One thing that I find interesting about this sort of discussion is the number of J Frame proponents who are very experienced shooters and/or veteran law enforcement officers.
War Story - 20 years ago or so, I joined a department that had recently transitioned from S&W Model 66 to the then newer 4043. The predominant off-duty gun was the J Frame and a few of the most tactically minded guys had purchased 4053s.

There were some mostly younger, more tactically aligned guys who lobbied for allowing personally owned Glocks and SIGs. Two years later, 75% of the officers were carrying something other than Smith & Wesson. Most of the off-duty guns were Glock 23s, SIG P229s and a few G27s. The old guys with mortgages and kids in college were the only guys who didnít switch. The dozens of guys and gals that switched wanted more rounds, less weight and better ergonomics - on duty and off.

I had a J Frame then with speed strips. I carried a J Frame last week on vacation out of state (swimming pool) and frequently as a winter pocket gun. My frame of reference is five-round J Frames are dated, but nothing carries quite the same.

To the original posters question, I switched to a Glock 26 years ago, which has more than twice as many of a more effective cartridge at an equivalent size to a J Frame. Now I have 12round Magpul magazine that allows 13 to be carried and a tactical light on the Glock. No way a G26 is as comfortable to carry as a J Frame but the additional capacity and speed of reloading were major determinants for me. Bonus is that the G26 shot better for me out of the box and requires less practice to remain proficient.

On capacity, the Trolley Square incident in SLC is what I think of when someone says X-amount of rounds are enough off-duty or in a civllian scenario. Same for the Skokie IL shootout where more than 15 .45ACP rounds did not get the job done against a determined felon.

I am here because I am just old enough to appreciate classic Smiths. My guess is most of the folks speaking up for the five-shot J Frame are over 40 and predisposed to be good shooters.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
These days in some areas the bad guys arenít man enough to confront you one on one. They come in pairs. Or more.

Therefore i always carry a reload. Doesnít cost me anything but a few more ounces in the pocket. And I would rather be over prepared than not.

I carry a Kimber K6 with a speed strip.


This.

And train.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:41 AM
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If a 5 shot snubby's what you shoot best, that's what you need to carry. 5 shots on target beats 17+1 all over the place every time.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:51 AM
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Default All in the tactics

J frames make ideal personal defense weapons but you need to think twice should you find yourself in the middle of a small riot or robbery in progress.

For a tragic case of how not to use a J frame, Google the Sgt. James O'Sullivan shooting at a lower Manhattan (NY) Radio shack.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:15 AM
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Why not have two spare tires in your trunk instead of one?

Why not install a sprinkler system in your house in case of fire?

Why not wear body armor 24/7?

Why not put bullet resistant glass in your home's windows?

These are all things you can do, but few do them. Wonder why?
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:11 AM
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As an old retired cop, like so many others here, I have found my armaments needs/desires have evolved over time. I've always been a "gun guy" and was a firearms instructor and SWAT for most of my 37 years. I started with revolvers and found the j-frames met most of my off-duty and BUG needs most of the time. If circumstances or locale dictated that I carry more rounds or higher capacity, I always had a 1911 in the 70's and 80's that I could carry in place of the j-frame.

However, as many have said in this thread, the j-frame is just an outstanding option for a large part of the time. I've been retired for 4 years now, and find I have moved away from the Glocks and similar guns over time. The j-frame, Glock 43, Shield or a CCO version of 1911 most often gets the nod. I feel quite comfortable with the j-frame and a couple of speed strips or speed loaders most of the time, whether in a pocket or at 3:00 OWB.

Just to clarify that I have not totally abandoned my training and tactical mindset, I always have a Glock 19 with extra mags in a armored lock box concealed in my truck, so there is more armament available if it gets weird. It's always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
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  #57  
Old 06-13-2018, 11:53 AM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
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I've seen a lot of surveillance videos posted on youtube showing armed civilians legally defending themselves against armed an attacker/s. 99% of them either get dropped or run away after the first or second shot. There is an argument whether capacity is an issue or not. Is a 17 round magazine better than a 5 shot revolver? Probably, however as I pointed out most civilian armed encounters are resolved within 1-3 shots fired. There have been times when LEO or civilians have fired more than 3 rounds. Fired up to 15-20 rounds, but that is a question of shot placement & training rather than a major gun battle.

I feel perfectly fine with my 642 and a speed strip of Remington G&W box of 38 special +P in my pocket.
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Old 06-13-2018, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
J frames make ideal personal defense weapons but you need to think twice should you find yourself in the middle of a small riot or robbery in progress.

For a tragic case of how not to use a J frame, Google the Sgt. James O'Sullivan shooting at a lower Manhattan (NY) Radio shack.
The J frame in Combat
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
If the answer is no to all of the above, a snub will suit you just fine.
The phrase "suit you fine" indicates the minimum necessary or desired. When I'm running (up to 4+ miles now!) I carry a snub, any other time I carry something more than the minimum.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:28 PM
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Let me set finances aside for a moment to consider if I would wear a Rolex or a Timex wrist watch?

If I still had an "outside job" working with my hands I would probably be practical and pick the budget timepiece.

But I'm at a place in my life where I enjoy the touch of nice things. I would probably chose a Rolex today. I would enjoy looking at it. Cleaning it and fondling it. They are beautiful, classic, and something to pass to one of my sons.

I don't wear a watch though. I have a smart phone that I can't escape. My job requires that I'm always in contact. So I carry that cellphone in a fine leather case instead of in a Wal*Mart toe sack stuck up under my belt.
If I want to know what time it is....I whip out that fancy cellphone of mine.

I carry my weapon everyday. I don't get into a gunfight everyday.

When my feet hit the floor I think about the Lucchese elephant boots that I'm going to slip my feet down into. I think about the Ranger belt with the silver buckle set and the starched jeans with creases. The starched roper long sleeve shirt. The Resistol or Stetson hat of the day.

Right then I decide if I'm going to want to carry a beautiful, classic S&W revolver or a sharp stick. I hold it up and admire the classic lines. The heft is comforting. It's cool steel from spending the night on the bedside table will soon be my own body temperature from the most intimate and personal contact with me. All day long I will be enjoying the comfort and luxury of that fine firearm next to me.

Why?
Because I can.

I have some semi-autos that I can shoot much further much more accurately. My finger gets tired pulling the trigger before I run out of rounds. I just don't get the same esthetic feel from them that I get from my steel S&W revolvers. They lack the beauty and feel of quality that my revolvers give me.

So what I'm telling you is that I could run a foot race better in sport trainers or tennis shoes but I feel better in a nice pair of boots. It's about what I do. The accessories that I choose for my mission.

Either you dig this trip or it's blowing past ya.
I'm not going to worry about shooting 5 guys tomorrow or 19 guys. I'm gonna worry about "The Total Package" of being outfitted with gear that will fit my needs, with style and class.

So is 5 rounds enough for what I have to do tomorrow?
I'm really thinking about this silver rodeo buckle that I saw last week end. It had this chrome plated, pearl handled one shot derringer mounted to it on a spring loaded hinge. You mash a hidden button on the top of the buckle and it springs out into action, firing a shot into the gut of the person standing in front of you.

Yeah, the longer I'm studying on this....I could probably get by tomorrow with just one bullet.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:00 AM
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I qualify in several categories listed in the "Age And The Snubnose" article. I carry a J-frame. But I've carried one for almost twenty years anyway, since before I got old and ill. It's what I feel comfortable and confident with.
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  #62  
Old 06-14-2018, 06:01 AM
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Some of us carry an S&W J or Colt DS because weíre just ď really really that good!!!
Practice Practice.
With 5 in a 460 Snubby...... who would dare approach!

While anyone can be startled.... even if you did teach Berets hand to hand back in the Ď60s...... not me.... my chief instructor ..... itís tough to carry a big gun/lotsa ammo in South Florida at times.

My small frame pilot buddies from back then went directly to Glocks decades later and found the 1911s with OEM grips too thin.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:52 AM
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As said before if you need more than five shots that's some sloppy shooting. Practice shooting more than the armchair and keyboard.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
The phrase "suit you fine" indicates the minimum necessary or desired. When I'm running (up to 4+ miles now!) I carry a snub, any other time I carry something more than the minimum.
What is the standard that you are going by to determine minimum? How many gunfights have you been in? rounds fired in self defense count? Just trying to understand what your minimum is.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:06 AM
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In my mind, simply being armed with an effective handgun is much more important than ammo capacity. Most dirtbags don't plan on armed resistance. I'm referring to a concealed handgun. Surprise multiplies your effectiveness and gives you a better chance of escape, survival. IMHO, the J frames (and similar)are the smallest, easiest to carry weapons that remain truly effective. I wouldn't ever choose a J frame if I was planning a gunfight, but if you live to limit your risk, the J frames are a good choice.
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:21 AM
Mike, SC Hunter Mike, SC Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I think that is the only thing offensive in the post. One shouldn't assume that all cops are 'gun guys' and can offer better advice than anyone else.

Carry whatever makes you comfortable.
That's right. Watch some "Live PD" episodes. You see that outside of their glock some are clueless. Most cops are not gun people. Their gun is just a tool on their belt. While a few are jun savvy like the rest of us.
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:24 AM
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CCW's are of personal taste just like clothes/cars and food..........You won't
change my mind and I won't change yours.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:27 PM
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This again.

I think we all make compromises in our decisions. I could carry two Beretta M9's with two spare 30 round stick magazines. I could compromise and carry one such wonder-nine with a 17 round magazine. Or I could compromise further and carry a single stack compact .45 like my Colt Defender. Or compromise further and carry my M649 with five rounds of .357 magnum. Or even further and just carry my Benchmade or Spyderco.

All of these options come with benefits and costs.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post
... when I go out into the world, I almost feel naked if I don't have at least 8 rounds in the gun (preferably 10 or more) & a re-load.

For those that just carry a 5 shot, why do you feel that's enough gun in today's crazy world? In most of the real life videos I've seen, 5 rounds just doesn't seem enough. ...
I used to carry a 6-shot revolver on-duty for several years in the 80's as a younger cop, so a 5-shot snub revolver only "cost" 1 round of capacity.

Back in those early service revolver days I often carried a 6-shot revolver or a 1911 with 7rd mags on my own time, and finally transitioned to 5-shot snubs for the convenience of carrying something lighter (like a 3" M36, or an older 649 Bodyguard .38 or a .44SPL Charter Arms Bulldog).

When I put away the revolvers I transitioned to a 3913, which uses 8rd mags. Although I was carrying an issued 6906 on-duty for a while, I preferred the slimmer frame of the 3913 on my own time, even though it lacked 4 rounds compared to the 6906. I later carried a CS45 (6rd mag), an early 4513TSW (6rd mag) and CS9 (7rd mag), too, so it's not like I was a particularly enthusiastic proponent of hi-cap guns on my own time.

Sure, nowadays I own some 9's, .40's and a .45 that use 9, 10 or 12rd mags (my single "hi-cap" pistol is a 12+1 .40), but I still prefer to carry one of my many 5-shot snubs as retirement weapons ... if I'm not carrying one of my pair of LCP's (6rd mags).

In older days it was pretty common to find LE firearms instructors carrying one or another 5-shot .38 snub on their own time, even if they carried a higher capacity pistol on-duty. The most common answer heard to the question "Why a 5-shot snub?" was usually that they were only carrying it against the potential need to defend against 1-2 attackers.

Now, something to also consider is that it's been said by some folks that a 2" snub revolver is more of an "expert's weapon" than one easily mastered by a novice.

Well, to be fair, the very attributes that make the little snubs so popular are also usually the very reasons that they can be harder to shoot accurately and controllably. Small grip, heavy DA/DAO trigger pull and greater felt recoil (due to the light weight), especially if the gun is rated for the use of +P loads. And even more especially if one of the Airweights, Airlites or PD models is being used.

As a longtime revolver shooter, though, and having carried revolvers on & off-duty as a cop, and then as a LE firearms instructor being able to spend a lot of time at a LE-Only range to practice my skills, I grew to appreciate the virtues of the small 5-shot snubs increasingly more over the years.

Modern ammunition improvements have given us better JHP ammo, too, meaning some bullets and loads tweaked for better "performance" (some potential for expansion) out of the short-barreled guns.

Given my druthers, I'll only get out one of my 9, .40 or .45 belt guns if I feel my planned activities are going to involve places and circumstances where I suspect a higher risk potential. Otherwise, for most of my "normal" retirement days/nights and activities, pocket-holstering one of my many J-frame snubs (or one of my LCP .380's) satisfy my perceived needs.

I don't presume to be able to make such decisions for anyone else, though. Not my business.

It's just that having carried one or another badge for 34 years, and having served as a LE firearms instructor for 26 years, I've acquired what I consider to be a sufficient amount of experience and training to be able to form an opinion about what makes me feel comfortable making such risk assessments and decisions for myself.

BTW, a couple of my last issued duty weapons were a 7+1 compact .45, and then a 8+1 compact 9, followed by a 15+1 .40 (when compact weapons were basically phased out with new full-size pistols in 9, .40 & .45, for ease of inventory control, procurement, etc). While I've previously carried some hi-cap pistols, I didn't invest as much attention to them on my own time as some other folks.

But then, I never felt exactly under-equipped even when carrying an issued .357 MAG revolver, either. For me it was more about being able to shoot accurately, and handle manipulation and loading smoothly and easily enough.

As an instructor, I've seen at least my fair share of folks who couldn't fire hi-cap duty pistols as quickly or as accurately as I could use my 5-shot snubs ... although granted, they didn't have to reload as often I did in the same courses-of-fire.

It's more about risk assessment, and hopefully also involves a frank self-appraisal of one's handgun foundation skillset.

It's just a handgun.
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Old 06-14-2018, 01:23 PM
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I don't trust small autos, and big autos are too big for me to carry, so I carry j frames.
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Old 06-14-2018, 02:44 PM
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Thanks for all the great responses.

As for me, I fell in love with Glocks in 1989. A young Marine showed-up with one to a Firearms class I had while the rest of us were using 686's (actually owned and issued by a Junior College).

I went through the Academy in 1990 with a Dept. issued model 15, and quickly transitioned to my own 686 after graduation. I picked-up a S&W 469 and carried that off-duty for a year or so. Also picked-up a model 36 just to have something smaller. I can only ever recall carrying that once in a ankle holster on a night out. In late 91', I bought my first Glock 19 for off-duty. Than transitioned to a Glock 17 for Duty in 92'. Since than, it's always been hi-caps (5904 for awhile and finished with a G22). And any J frame I owned over the years served as a back-up gun. Once in awhile, I'd throw on a 6 shot S&W for off-duty.

Now I'm retired, I'm still carry a Glock. Usually a 23, 19, 27, or 43. Backed-up by a Ruger LCP. I'm a big guy, and "dress around the gun".

I actually get to the range several times a month now, and am a better shot now than when I was on the job. Although it seems Arthritis is setting in on my trigger finger (Joint feels sore after shooting?). I still don't shoot J frames all that well, but that's probably from lack of practice.

Maybe with more practice and when I get tired of carry a big gun, I'll transition into a J frame. They sure are light.

Again, thanks for all the great info.
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Old 06-14-2018, 03:26 PM
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i have always carried a J frame. First a model 60 no dash and then I bought a 642. So I have been limited to 5 shots. Ok sometimes I have carried a model 659. It makes a good club too I'm like the OP. I have been watching videos also. If you have to ask it is Active Self Protection. Yes a lot of the videos are from outside the US. I think other countries employ more cameras than we do, and they are a bit more lawless too.

So yes I have begun to wonder about whether 5 shots are enough. I am an older disabled person and have recently had hand surgery. It will be a year before it is back to 100% and then I will have the right hand done. The thoughts of trying to reload under pressure does worry me. If you are trying to do a double tap and you have more than one attacker and your shot placement isn't near perfect you may have a problem.

Like I said, I'm beginning to reevaluate my choice in weapons. The only person that can decide for me is me. You get to make the same choices.
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Old 06-14-2018, 03:41 PM
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Here in TEXAS, with a CHL license, you are legal to carry OPEN or CONCEALED.
There are some restrictions that dis-allow open carry inside some "posted establishments".
Basic Law here allows you to carry in your car, as it is considered your abode.

I have seen signs on the OUTSIDE of some places that do not allow outside visible carry of a firearm, but do allow concealed.
Always read the signs. They must be posted outside where one can see and read them.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:02 PM
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I've seen a lot of surveillance videos posted on youtube showing armed civilians legally defending themselves against armed an attacker/s. 99% of them either get dropped or run away after the first or second shot. There is an argument whether capacity is an issue or not. Is a 17 round magazine better than a 5 shot revolver? Probably, however as I pointed out most civilian armed encounters are resolved within 1-3 shots fired. There have been times when LEO or civilians have fired more than 3 rounds. Fired up to 15-20 rounds, but that is a question of shot placement & training rather than a major gun battle.

I feel perfectly fine with my 642 and a speed strip of Remington G&W box of 38 special +P in my pocket.
IF you only carry for a single potential mugger, yes a 5 shot is probably sufficient. Consider in todays enviro of the fanatic religious terrorist or just multiple attackers, I personally want a something I can fight with from contact to 50y & 1 to as many attackers as may appear. We each have our own threat assessment, but imo, the 5 shot j-frame is best as a bug, not a primary.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:21 PM
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i have always carried a J frame. First a model 60 no dash and then I bought a 642. So I have been limited to 5 shots. Ok sometimes I have carried a model 659. It makes a good club too I'm like the OP. I have been watching videos also. If you have to ask it is Active Self Protection. Yes a lot of the videos are from outside the US. I think other countries employ more cameras than we do, and they are a bit more lawless too.

So yes I have begun to wonder about whether 5 shots are enough. I am an older disabled person and have recently had hand surgery. It will be a year before it is back to 100% and then I will have the right hand done. The thoughts of trying to reload under pressure does worry me. If you are trying to do a double tap and you have more than one attacker and your shot placement isn't near perfect you may have a problem.

Like I said, I'm beginning to reevaluate my choice in weapons. The only person that can decide for me is me. You get to make the same choices.
Something you might consider is getting another 642 and carry two of them.

10 shots of 38+P without reloading is pretty formidable.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:35 PM
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How about a Glock 30S - thatís 10 + 1 - with an S&W 640 PD as an alternative grab.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:56 PM
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Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.

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Old 06-14-2018, 05:58 PM
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Something you might consider is getting another 642 and carry two of them.

10 shots of 38+P without reloading is pretty formidable.
Early on in my LE career (late 70's) I decided on j frames as backup and off-duty and have never looked back. Sure I experimented with lots of autos over the years, but nothing gave me the confidence that the wheelguns did.

Full disclosure: I had a 9mm Shield for a while and loved it. Gave it to my daughter when Utah allowed teachers to ccw. I also own a Glock 19, 26, and 43. I shoot the j frames better than even those.

Now old and retired (mostly tired!) this is my edc. The 640-1 goes aiwb, and the 49 goes in the weak side pocket. Works for me.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:01 PM
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A very rationale perspective IMO... The Thinking Gunfighter: THE MYTH OF MURPHY'S LAW: Why "better to have it and not need it" fails the test.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:19 PM
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Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.
Not being argumentative. You asked for instances. Two from ASP come to mind over the last few years. I did a quick search, but they didn't pop right away.

The first was a shop owner and his son in the US (Calif maybe) against three armed assailants. The owner had a 1911 he fumbled with. He didn't make it. 3 armed vs 1 was too many. There was a thread here about it.

The second was out of India or East Asia. A shop keeper against five. The shop keeper had a 5 shot revolver. One BG had a revolver and the rest had clubs or tire irons. The shop keeper disabled two with his five shots, wasn't able to reload, then took a pretty good beating escaping from the rest.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:25 PM
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My 442's my everyday carry.


It usually rides on my right hip with occasional pocket carry. I made myself the iwb holster but have yet to use it outside of the house.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:30 PM
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I think for me, 5 is probably adequate, but for a slightly different reason. I practice shooting side by side IPSC targets at 1 yard from concealment. I can put 4 shots COM in two targets (2 each) in a little over two seconds on a square range, using a shot timer, while not actually being assaulted (limited stress). If there was a real-life third attacker, I don't think I'm going to get shots on target fast enough before the third could draw and shoot me. Three or more vs one, the odds seem to start going south really quickly. Doesn't mean I wouldn't try, but 3 vs 1 isn't good no matter how many rounds you have.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:38 PM
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Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.
While not quite 100% responsive to the structured question, this story immediately came to mind from two and a half months ago, noon time weekday and presumably a combat reload would have been wise....

Oklahoma Man Uses AR-15 to Kill Three Teen Home Intruders

I would also point out the well-covered Trolley Square mall shooting, where the good guy with a gun was extremely limited in the action he could take because he had eight in the gun (IIRC) and no reload. After he took a few shots at the active shooter, he was at a major disadvantage due to low ammo, regardless of his considerable heroics. To the posed question, you do not reload when you lack a reload.

Those real life cases resonate with me because (1) I have been to Trolley Square and the Omaha Van Maur personally and (2) know at least one unarmed person who hid in the back of a store two years ago during a similar mall shooting incident (for hours... in a mostly non-CCW state... waiting for LE to clear a four-story mall). Add in the outlier Nairobi mall as the most worst case along with other mall attacks like St. Cloud MN, Portland OR, et al. The series of mall incidents absolutely reinforces my thought process on what is well within the realm of possibility in any public space, including ones I have personally found myself in.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:00 PM
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I have no issue with carrying a five shot "snubbie." I also don't feel under gunned carrying it.

But my five shot snubbie has a big hole in the barrel.





All jokes aside, I just returned home after qualifying with the 296. It was painful. I carried a 342ti loaded with .38 +P ammo for years and I told everyone that that gun was 364 days of pleasure and one day of pain (qualification day). Unfortunately the recoil with the 296 was much more painful. After 60 rounds I had blood dripping from the web of my right hand. Luckily I qualified as I could not have fired another round.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:18 PM
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Yikes, I would have tossed on some rubber grips for qualification day...
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:23 PM
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You guys with your newfangled J frames.

All I need is my I-frame and five rounds of mighty .38 S&W lead round nose.







The zip strip is for show. I don't carry a reload.

I used to go into really bad people's homes, pull them out, and take them to jail, sometimes for ever. Now I go to Home Depot and buy grass seed. I figure the Terrier can handle it.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:33 PM
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I have a 642 on my CCW list, it fills a gap.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:43 PM
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I've never felt unprotected with this duo which I've relied on for over 6 years

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Old 06-14-2018, 09:51 PM
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Yikes, I would have tossed on some rubber grips for qualification day...
I did, probably would not have been able to shoot the second round with the ones on it in the photo.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:06 PM
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" But real world stats for cop killings look horrible when they where just using revolvers, albeit a good percentage where facing rifles but a good many got killed just reloading."

I don't believe there are documented examples of police officers being killed while trying to reload a revolver.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:11 PM
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Because I know in my heart that I can put a couple in the ten ring if I have to, which is all you have to do . . .

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For those that just carry a 5 shot, why do you feel that's enough gun in today's crazy world?
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
Does anybody have some links to all these videos(or news reports) of civilians carrying concealed being forced to engage multiple armed assailants in ranged gunfights, because I'm just not finding them. And while you're at it, please share all the incidents you can find where civilians had to perform a reload. Thanks.
Take a look at this one.
Only one assailant but two defenders. 5 shot snubby ran out so the second defender chipped in with shots from a small automatic. If the first women had more than 5 shots whe would not have gotten pistol whipped.
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Old 06-14-2018, 10:27 PM
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" But real world stats for cop killings look horrible when they where just using revolvers, albeit a good percentage where facing rifles but a good many got killed just reloading."

I don't believe there are documented examples of police officers being killed while trying to reload a revolver.
I believe at least one of the CHP officers killed in the Newhall incident was in the process of attempting a reload.

In the 1986 Miami FBI shootout reloading was an issue as well.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
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Take a look at this one. Mom and Daughter Prove Untrained, Unskilled People Can Defend Themselves | Active Self Protection - YouTube
Only one assailant but two defenders. 5 shot snubby ran out so the second defender chipped in with shots from a small automatic. If the first women had more than 5 shots whe would not have gotten pistol whipped.
Videos like that make me want to carry my 686 loaded with .357. It looked like the shots hit the bad guy but didn't slow him down until much later.

He was only a couple yards away, but a moving target.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:21 AM
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I don't see any practical benefit to going with 9mm over .38 special +p in a snub revolver. There's a lot more options available in .38, plus you don't run into the issues with crimp-jump and moon-clips like you do when using an autoloader round in a wheelgun. And I personally find the Ruger LCR trigger to be horrible. It was very easy for me to short-stroke it in rapid fire and I've seen others mentioning having the same complaints about it. Lighter doesn't equal better. And using 1 or 2 isolated cases to justify a particular choice isn't logical since there is no limit to it. There have been incidents where a Glock 17 wouldn't have held enough ammunition. In the case with the two women in the liquor store, it's just one case and there were countless mistakes made. I'm not them in that situation and never will be. You have to consider what is most likely to occur in your particular set of circumstances and and go from there basing your weapon choices and training on being the best prepared for the most probable scenarios. No matter what you choose, there will be compromises and trade-offs.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
You guys with your newfangled J frames.

All I need is my I-frame and five rounds of mighty .38 S&W lead round nose.







The zip strip is for show. I don't carry a reload.

I used to go into really bad people's homes, pull them out, and take them to jail, sometimes for ever. Now I go to Home Depot and buy grass seed. I figure the Terrier can handle it.
I love that gun.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:44 AM
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I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:52 AM
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Another thing, most people thing that if you have a J frame, you are putting all 5 rounds on target and if you have a high capacity auto, you are spraying and praying and missing your target. Who says that if you have a lot of ammo you are missing a lot?
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Old 06-15-2018, 12:40 PM
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I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.
From the referenced article....

"The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead. "

That incident was involving a police officer whose job it is to intentially engage and pursue. I would agree, high capacity autoloaders make the most sense for Law Enforcement as well as many home defense(why I own several Glocks) and business defense scenarios, but my likely needs when carrying concealed are very different. There have been civilian incidents involving high round counts, but nearly all of them are HD or an individual protecting a high-risk business like the Lance Thomas incidents or liquor and convenient stores. I don't nor would I work in such places. I also wouldn't intervene in situations that don't concern me directly. And pointing to rare outliers to justify a choice isn't sensible.

At the range, most people will probably perform better(shooting and reloading) with a compact auto compared with a snub revolver, but what most people do at the range has very little in common with most self-defense scenarios, which are reactive, at very close-quarters to contact distance and involve very few shots fired with the odds of needing(or having the opportunity) to reload being equivelant to being struck by lightning. I see no need to concern myself with lightning stikes all too much either since I don't intentionally put myself at undue risk for it just as I don't when it comes to personal defense i.e. the rules of stupids; don't go to stupid places with stupid people at stupid times and do stupid things.

In terms of the armed civilian being forced(as opposed to intentionally engaging/intervening), I'm just not finding any appreciable amount of incidents where the capacity of a revolver is inadequate nor is anyone producing them. Out of the thousands of incidents reported in statistics, videos or news reports I've studied, the percentage where the capacity of a revolver is an issue is a small fraction of 1%. The vast majority of civilian cases took place at very close range. The long-range gunfight against multiple armed assailants seems to be a common fantasy of many gun owners that carry concealed, but it simply isn't reality. Violence against civilians in general occurs at extremely close distances-with fists, knives, clubs and even with guns. Most people don't carry a gun on a daily basis, so we have a relatively limited pool of incidents to learn from, so maybe also consider the types of violence as a whole and how a gun would figure into the equation had the defender been armed. The possibility is there for needing high capacity, but the need for a weapon that is quick into action and will be reliable in all circumstances is much greater.

Consider the following incident, which I don't think is at all an improbable scenario in most circumstances. Which would you rather have in that situation; an enclosed hammer snub revolver or a Glock 19/17? I would choose the snub every time. The snubby will be quicker to access, get into the fight, offer better weapon retention(they will most likely either run or try to disarm you), and the snub will run reliably in that environment. I'm not confident any auto would and I've done a lot of H2H and ECQ training over the years that most haven't. What's better...5 rounds from a gun that you retain or one or none from a gun that you lose?


What if it's just one assailant? While this particular video is a law enforcement incident, I think it is still illustrative of the dynamics as physical assaults obviously routinely happen to civilians as well, whereas running gun battles do not.The auto malfunctioned just as we see time and again in force-on-force training.


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Old 06-15-2018, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by petepeterson View Post
Considering the speed and violence of a home invasion, why do you feel 5 rds is enough in your house?

Why is 8 the right number? Or 10? Or 20?

Everything is somewhat of a compromise, short of an A-10 Warthog.
Check out the big brain on Bret! Lol sorry, I saw your signature from Pulp Fiction, that's one of my favorite scenes. I have a 5 and a 6 shot revolver in the event someone were to break in. I figure if pulling a gun doesn't stop the person, a couple rounds should. I live alone and have no kids, so I have guns stashed all over my apartment, throwing knives, large knives, clubs, everything lol. I would feel sorry for anyone breaking into my pad. I'd imagine if someone did break in and even if they had a couple buddies with them, once they hear a couple shots being popped off, they have no idea what kind of gun I have in the dark and the loudness of the 357 popping in a small room will be enough to make most people dip out quickly. I'd venture to say any gun would make most people leave. Plus one benefit of being broke is I have nothing worth stealing! Jokes on them! They might feel so bad they may even leave me 20 bucks haha.

On a side note, have you ever seen Jackie Brown?? My favorite movie from Quentin Tarentino by far! If you haven't seen it, check it out.
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