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  #101  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
I think that is the only thing offensive in the post. One shouldn't assume that all cops are 'gun guys' and can offer better advice than anyone else.
Hallelujah! The police are actually the last group that should be consulted on the topic of guns - and especially armed civilians.

The International Association of Chiefs of Police is a vehement gun-control political action group.

Just google this phrase and see for yourself: "chiefs of police gun rights"
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  #102  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
Something you might consider is getting another 642 and carry two of them.

10 shots of 38+P without reloading is pretty formidable.
Or carry a g26, 11+1, less wt, about the same size, no reload or reaching for another gun.
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  #103  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:13 PM
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Because I know in my heart that I can put a couple in the ten ring if I have to, which is all you have to do . . .
Maybe?????
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  #104  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:16 PM
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Yikes, I would have tossed on some rubber grips for qualification day...
Defeats the purpose. Like qual with 38sp wc & carry 357mag. Practice like you play.
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  #105  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Thorton View Post
Yeah I hear that. Now get this, he was already shot ran out of the store came back in and pistol whip her. I'm guessing .38 special or even less. I haven't read yet what caliber she was using and many have asked. And he didn't die.

Problem with a .357 magnum in a snubby is you only really have that first shot to get right because after that it's just to uncontrollable. I carried a Ruger LCR magnum, although loaded light magnums and could blast over 150 round a range session but never knew after the first round where they were going.

You need a minimum of a 36 oz gun to even get close to taming it fully loaded we are then talking close to 40 oz. Sounds good on paper until you starting carrying that behemoth.

What's the answer then, in my case I sold that LCR and went to a 9mm auto, however I don't trust semi-automatics.
But at last I think I got my problem solve, Ruger came out with an LCR in 9mm and if you have ever shot a Ruger LCR in any flavor you will know just how utterly fantastic the trigger is right out of the box. You cannot even get a S&W 'performance center' trigger that good.

If I make the switch it will be my 3rd LCR, the first one being the .38 special only version.
And I have complete confidence in the 9mm as it rocks the same pressure rating as a .357 magnum. And did I mention even cheaper to practice with than .38 special.
REcoil mitigation is about putting the time in to learn to roll with it. I can shoot a M66 with full loads, a sp101 less so but manageable. Put time in with a 4" 44mag, going to the 357snub is quite doable. For that reason though, a G32 or P239 even a G33 in 357sig makes a whole lot more sense than a 357mag snub. easier to shoot, more ammo, win win.
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  #106  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
From the referenced article....

"The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead. "

That incident was involving a police officer whose job it is to intentially engage and pursue. I would agree, high capacity autoloaders make the most sense for Law Enforcement as well as many home defense(why I own several Glocks) and business defense scenarios, but my likely needs when carrying concealed are very different. There have been civilian incidents involving high round counts, but nearly all of them are HD or an individual protecting a high-risk business like the Lance Thomas incidents or liquor and convenient stores. I don't nor would I work in such places. I also wouldn't intervene in situations that don't concern me directly. And pointing to rare outliers to justify a choice isn't sensible.

At the range, most people will probably perform better(shooting and reloading) with a compact auto compared with a snub revolver, but what most people do at the range has very little in common with most self-defense scenarios, which are reactive, at very close-quarters to contact distance and involve very few shots fired with the odds of needing(or having the opportunity) to reload being equivelant to being struck by lightning. I see no need to concern myself with lightning stikes all too much either since I don't intentionally put myself at undue risk for it just as I don't when it comes to personal defense i.e. the rules of stupids; don't go to stupid places with stupid people at stupid times and do stupid things.

In terms of the armed civilian being forced(as opposed to intentionally engaging/intervening), I'm just not finding any appreciable amount of incidents where the capacity of a revolver is inadequate nor is anyone producing them. Out of the thousands of incidents reported in statistics, videos or news reports I've studied, the percentage where the capacity of a revolver is an issue is a small fraction of 1%. The vast majority of civilian cases took place at very close range. The long-range gunfight against multiple armed assailants seems to be a common fantasy of many gun owners that carry concealed, but it simply isn't reality. Violence against civilians in general occurs at extremely close distances-with fists, knives, clubs and even with guns. Most people don't carry a gun on a daily basis, so we have a relatively limited pool of incidents to learn from, so maybe also consider the types of violence as a whole and how a gun would figure into the equation had the defender been armed. The possibility is there for needing high capacity, but the need for a weapon that is quick into action and will be reliable in all circumstances is much greater.

Consider the following incident, which I don't think is at all an improbable scenario in most circumstances. Which would you rather have in that situation; an enclosed hammer snub revolver or a Glock 19/17? I would choose the snub every time. The snubby will be quicker to access, get into the fight, offer better weapon retention(they will most likely either run or try to disarm you), and the snub will run reliably in that environment. I'm not confident any auto would and I've done a lot of H2H and ECQ training over the years that most haven't. What's better...5 rounds from a gun that you retain or one or none from a gun that you lose?

The disturbing assault in Missouri outside Springfield bar on Aug 22, 2014. - YouTube

What if it's just one assailant? While this particular video is a law enforcement incident, I think it is still illustrative of the dynamics as physical assaults obviously routinely happen to civilians as well, whereas running gun battles do not.The auto malfunctioned just as we see time and again in force-on-force training.


Cop with a gun VS heavy weight - YouTube
That was all very very well written. In short, I can't agree with you more. The chances of having to fend off several assailants all armed with guns at long ranges is pretty slim. Usually, and probably most often, it's gonna be one, maybe two people in your face trying to rob you. The call for me to need 21 rounds is pretty slim. Yes it's possible, but like you said, it's possible I could get hit by lightning but it never even crosses my mind. I could win the lottery, but I don't hold my breath. I even feel confident with my 38 special Derringer as opposed to not having anything at all. A lot of times, if someone is trying to rob you and they don't have a gun, and you pull a gun, they will most likely flee or POSSIBLY try to disarm you, but most likely they'd book it. My snub 5 shot makes me feel perfectly protected. I also don't go to stupid places with stupid people and so on (at least not these days) so no worries there.

Another thing I have never seen addressed anywhere on forums, YouTube and so on, is that if you round a corner and someone has a gun already pulled pointing at your stomach, or if someone is intending on robbing you and you don't see it coming and they pull first and have a gun pointed at you, I can't speak for others, but I'm certainly not going to grab my gun because they already got the drop on me. If I reach for my wasteband instead of my pockets, if they have every intention of shooting, they will shoot me before I can get my gun drawn and pointing at them. In that case, it doesn't matter if your gun hold 1 round or 1,000 it's completely useless to you at least until the turn around or put their gun away or something of that sort. I know I would never grab my gun if someone 5 ft away already had one pointing at me. At that point I'd give up my empty wallet (as it's always empty) and the few bucks I had on me, because I never carry much money anyways. I'm not going to invite a bullet into my belly for no apparent reason. Now maybe they're gonna shoot you anyways, but if you go for your gun, they WILL shoot you for sure (if of course they are actually willing to shoot to begin with). Some people may rob others and use a gun, but have no intention of actually shooting you, but I'm not going to find out which category they fall under while that gun is still pointing at me.
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  #107  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
REcoil mitigation is about putting the time in to learn to roll with it. I can shoot a M66 with full loads, a sp101 less so but manageable. Put time in with a 4" 44mag, going to the 357snub is quite doable. For that reason though, a G32 or P239 even a G33 in 357sig makes a whole lot more sense than a 357mag snub. easier to shoot, more ammo, win win.
I won't argue the point with you about which is better, but any day of the week I'd prefer a 357 snub over any auto of any caliber. Just my personal preference, but 9 mm or even 357 Sig compared to say a Buffalo Bore 180gr LFN slug, there is quite a bit of difference. I know most people prefer autos, and more power to them. However, I love my snubs. 38 special or 357 mag in a compact revolver are great to me. I have a Taurus 605 which is a 5 shot, J frame 357 mag and it's a beast. No bigger than a Chief's Special with a round butt, but the power of those rounds are impressive. They would probably blow a hole completely through a person at close range and not even slow down. If you shot someone in the bicep with one of those, I'd be willing to bet they have to have the arm amputated, at least if you hit the bone. There would be so much damage done to muscle, tissue and bone, I don't think all the kings horses and all the kings men could put that arm back together again. A shot in the stomach, holy wow, I don't even wanna think about that one. As that lead flattened put, it's gonna take everything it comes in contact with with it on its way out. Not that the other rounds couldn't do the same, but the mag rounds are vicious.

As far as 9mm, I had always been under the understanding that the reason police departments switch to 9mm is because the pointed roundness of the rounds was designed more to injure, not kill. Like they just pass right through without doin excessive damage. I know they make hollow points and stuff like that now that are much more deadly and effective out on the market, but I could be wrong, but I thought that's why they switched to that caliber and had guns that had more rounds in it so if you needed more you'd have them? Again, this could be completely wrong, but I had heard that somewhere before a long time ago. From what I have seen on velocity tests, the 9 mil seems to move faster than the same weight and style 38 special bullet, but the 9 mil tips are longer, more pointed and skinnier than a 38. Is any of this true? Anyone feel free to weigh in on this. And I'm not knockin peoples 9's, I'm not a fan simply because so many people are. Same with Glocks, I'll never own one because soooo many people do. If everyone hated them, I'd probably own 7 of them. I prefer to go against the grain.
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  #108  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by otis24 View Post
Another thing, most people thing that if you have a J frame, you are putting all 5 rounds on target and if you have a high capacity auto, you are spraying and praying and missing your target. Who says that if you have a lot of ammo you are missing a lot?

This is a very true statement, but I at least don't think that. I've just always felt that 17-21 rounds of ammo probably won't be necessary for your average everyday hold up or self defense situation. Since most people don't rob you from 100 yards away, and they are generally right there in front of you, the average shooter should be able to hit the person with any caliber, and gun period. I love my J frames because they are small and I know my Smiths are gonna work and if a round doesn't go off, pull again. All autos I've ever dealt with have jammed at least once. My Beretta 40 cal 9000s, if I use federal ammo, I can't get through a single magazine without at least one jam. I know how to clear them, but if I'm shooting for my life I don't wanna have to worry about that. A lot of autos CAN be (not saying all of them are) brand sensitive. I had a .380 Bersa a while back, I had Critical Defense rounds in it and almost every other shot would jam. That type of round did not work in mine. I'm sure there are rounds that would work fine, but I love that my revolver will shoot any 38 special round I put in it, +p or standard it will fire. Plus I carry speed strips too, so I usually have 5 in the gun, and I have 2 6 shot speed strips with 6 rounds a piece, so I have 17 rounds at all time. If I can't get the job done with 5, then I need to find shelter and reload. But being as realistic as possible. Chances are, I will never fire that gun, or any other gun in self defense. Yes it's always possible, that's why I carry, and I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. But realistically, I'll never need it. Haven't needed a gun in 37 years, that's probably half my life so far, probably will never need one in the future. I used to only carry autos for the same reason, but once I realized the probability of a tally needing it and actually needing more than 5 rounds, I said screw it and got a J frame. From all statistics people have found that have studied self defense shootings, it almost never goes more than 3 rounds and a few seconds anyways. Now, anything is possible, but a rock can fall out of the sky and hit me in the head, but I don't walk around with a steel helmet on lol.
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  #109  
Old 06-15-2018, 01:53 PM
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I want to ask a couple questions concerning this:
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
Consider the following incident, which I don't think is at all an improbable scenario in most circumstances. Which would you rather have in that situation; an enclosed hammer snub revolver or a Glock 19/17? I would choose the snub every time.
Keeping the discussion to just these two guns, I would pick the G19 (M&P 9 Compact 2.0) over the revolver. Here's why...

Both guns can be prevented from firing multiple shots, but only the revolver can be prevented from firing the first shot. If an assailant can grasp the cylinder, they can prevent it from turning. If they do that, the enclosed hammer doesn't help you at all. At least with the G19, as long a you can get your finger on the trigger, you get the first shot. As we see in video after video, once the first shot is fired in these situations, the bad guys usually run. You can't count on that, but it is the most likely scenario.

Along with that, I don't understand what you mean by:
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
The snubby will be quicker to access, get into the fight,...
How is the snubby quicker to get into the fight? Both pistols must be drawn from wherever they are. Sounds like they'd be the same. Maybe you can explain how the snubby is quicker?

Also, you said:
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
...offer better weapon retention(they will most likely either run or try to disarm you),...
Why does the snubby offer better retention? Once out, they are both equally easy (or not) to retain. I don't understand why you think the snubby offers better retention.


I'm just looking for clarification here. I completely agree that 5 shots should be enough for a civilian to the 6 sigma level.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by otis24 View Post
Another thing, most people thing that if you have a J frame, you are putting all 5 rounds on target and if you have a high capacity auto, you are spraying and praying and missing your target.
My experience is the complete opposite.

I've seen/see a lot of people shoot. The long, heavy pull of a double action revolver tends to have people shooting low/left or low/right when put under pressure. Typically, I see a lot better accuracy from the semi-autos than revolvers.
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  #111  
Old 06-15-2018, 03:17 PM
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It gets worst, in the Newhall incident some think they one was killed because of the practice they had learn at the academy of picking up their brass before a reload.
The Newhall incident was made into a training film when I was in the Academy in 1977. The last officer to die was trying to reload when he was shot. At the time, speed loaders were not authorized, so he was reloading from belt loops. Also, evident was the "You fight like you train" reaction. He had actually dumped his empty cases into his hand and they were found in his pocket.

Lots of things changed after that.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:13 PM
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I want to ask a couple questions concerning this:Keeping the discussion to just these two guns, I would pick the G19 (M&P 9 Compact 2.0) over the revolver. Here's why...

Both guns can be prevented from firing multiple shots, but only the revolver can be prevented from firing the first shot. If an assailant can grasp the cylinder, they can prevent it from turning. If they do that, the enclosed hammer doesn't help you at all. At least with the G19, as long a you can get your finger on the trigger, you get the first shot. As we see in video after video, once the first shot is fired in these situations, the bad guys usually run. You can't count on that, but it is the most likely scenario.

Along with that, I don't understand what you mean by: How is the snubby quicker to get into the fight? Both pistols must be drawn from wherever they are. Sounds like they'd be the same. Maybe you can explain how the snubby is quicker?

Also, you said:Why does the snubby offer better retention? Once out, they are both equally easy (or not) to retain. I don't understand why you think the snubby offers better retention.


I'm just looking for clarification here. I completely agree that 5 shots should be enough for a civilian to the 6 sigma level.
The auto can be forced out of battery, preventing firing that first shot. Grabbing the cylinder seems like a viable option and I know is often taught in many martial arts and self-defense programs and has been for a long time, but it is just extremely difficult to retain a grip on a snubnose revolver. It just doesn't hold up very well in force-on-force. You usually have to overwhelm the wielder and get two hands on it. In terms of simply redirecting the gun off-line, that's easier to do to someone with a Glock 19 compared to a snub. These are all momentary and transitional considerations in a dynamic environment. When you start getting hands on and body contact, autos frequently run into reliability problems. Craig Douglas and many students who have attended his courses have posted numerous vids of his ECQC class on YouTube showing this problem surface with sim guns. They are pretty easy to find if interested.

It just doesn't take much contact(intentional or inadvertent) to stop an auto from cycling as Tom Givens demonstrates.

In terms of quickness into action, the short muzzle, the overall roundness and the cylinder of a snub providing a slight amount of clearance from the body in many instances makes clearing the holster or waistband a little quicker. Plus there's the pocket carry option. A lot of folks view firing from inside the pocket a novelty, but I see it as a viable tactic. Michael de Bethencourt recently posted(May 17th) a real world example of it being used to the ImWithROSCOE Facebook page. It's an assassination attempt and not a self-defense scenario, but it illustrates the viability of the technique. No draw being the fastest draw as it were. Pants pocket carry does come with several disadvantages, but having your hand on the weapon without alerting anyone to your intent does allow for an extremely quick draw. If you go on YouTube and search "Stephon Carter kills officer in Aiken SC, you'll find a demonstration of it's speed and effectiveness albeit for criminal purposes. I'd post the links, but they may not be considered suitable for the forum.

The snub offers better weapon retention because it's more difficult to get ahold of and retain a grip on. There's just not anything there to utilize leverage against. This is simply due to it's short muzzle and overall rounded contours. Plus being able to find or better customize grips to your individual hand helps out some as well.
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  #113  
Old 06-15-2018, 04:25 PM
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I'm going down fighting if I see it coming.
In all honesty, any gun that works will probably be sufficient for most scenarios. The reason I quoted just this text is because THAT is the most important factor of them all. No matter how prepared someone is, if you don't see it coming you're pretty much out of luck. If I were a criminal I would walk past my intended target and not make eye contact or look at them. As soon as they past I'd pull my gun from my pocket, turn around and tell them to stop and then cock the hammer so they can hear the gun. Once they stopped, I'd hit them in the back of the head and knock them out. At this point, they could have a 50 caliber machine gun and it'll do them no good. Most people won't pull out a gun and stare you in the eyes as they walk down the block letting you know well in advance what's going to happen. Now, they can show signs that something isn't quite right, but if you don't see it coming, no gun in the world is gonna help. If someone was walking past me, not paying attention to me and at the last second they pulled a gun and pointed it at my stomach or head, whatever, if I go for my wasteband, I'm gonna get shot so whether I have a gun that holds 1 round or 1,000 it's not going to matter. Now, once they get my stuff and run off I could grab my gun, but I'm definitely NOT shooting someone in the back. That could get me prison time. I think awareness of your surroundings is far more important than what type of gun you carry or what caliber it is. Most people won't ever even need to shoot in self defense, but if I have any gun, even my J frame, if I can get the drop on whoever is trying to get the drop on me, I can at least possibly get out of the situation I'm in. It's pretty hard to imagine a scenario before it happens, and when it does, it's gonna happen fast so who knows what I would or would not do. A few bullets to me, is better than nothing and I love revolvers. A lot of people love autos. Everyone should carry whatever they like and feel comfortable with, but be aware of what is going on around you. I see so many people, especially walking down the street in downtown Chicago that are completely oblivious to any and everything going on around them. I think that's more important than gun style or caliber any day because if you don't see it coming, who cares what gun you have, it's irrelevant at that point.

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Old 06-15-2018, 04:29 PM
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[QUOTE=Mister X;140068769] Grabbing the cylinder seems like a viable option and I know is often taught in many martial arts and self-defense programs and has been for a long time, but it is just extremely difficult to retain a grip on a snubnose revolver. It just doesn't hold up very well in force-on-force. You usually have to overwhelm the wielder and get two hands on it.

Extremely difficult? Maybe. Impossible? No.

In 1979 we had an officer shot point-blank with a .38 snub. Bullet lodged in his spine (still there to this day). As he fell, he was able to grab the revolver with his left hand and take the perp to the ground with him. He held tight enough to prevent the cylinder from rotating (he said he could feel it moving), drew his 1911 and killed the *** with three rounds.
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  #115  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
If an assailant can grasp the cylinder, they can prevent it from turning. If they do that, the enclosed hammer doesn't help you at all.
Rotating the gun in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger defeats this type of attack.
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  #116  
Old 06-15-2018, 08:47 PM
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[see post #120 because there's too much to quote.]
Thank you for that lucid explanation. You've made a very good case for the snubby. I don't think it will change my opinion on what I carry, but I do see the validity in what you said.


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Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post
Rotating the gun in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling the trigger defeats this type of attack.
No, it won't. The person holding the cylinder will just rotate with the gun and still have a grasp on it. Not a bad idea, I just don't think it will work.

However, this does call to light the value of a non fluted cylinder.
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:26 AM
hostler hostler is offline
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Why a snubby?
Close-in, bad breath reliability.
I'm not talking about "range reliability" where you are standing in a nice tight Weaver or isosceles stance, firing strong hand on a nice day with a freshly cleaned gun. I'm talking about "defensive reliability" where you may be firing off handed with a poor grip, the gun pushed against an assailant, rolling around in the dirt with a grabby bad guy punching you, etc.
While it's true any handgun can be defeated if the assailant gets his mitts on it, IMO semi-autos are particularly vulnerable to this. It doesn't take much force to push a slide out of battery, it doesn't take much pushing, pulling or twisting to drop a mag. Even if the bad guy can't manage to push the slide out of battery, you may get one shot off but if he has a hold of the slide at all it's improbable you will get a second shot without having to rack another round. If the bad guy manages to hit the mag release you are seriously screwed. If you don't think bad guys practice pushing the slide out of battery you may be surprised. I remember back in the 80s when the Beretta 92 became popular, bad guys practiced flipping the takedown lever, it became a real concern for LE.
I suppose it's possible to stop a revolver cylinder from rotating but in the end, the revolver still has second, third, fourth and fifth strike capability without having to stop and clear a malfunction, you just keep pulling the trigger.
Advantage Semi-auto for capacity.
Advantage revolver for close-in bad breath reliability.
Thats why snubbys are still around

Last edited by hostler; 06-16-2018 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by hostler View Post
I'm talking about "defensive reliability" where you may be firing off handed with a poor grip, the gun pushed against an assailant, rolling around in the dirt with a grabby bad guy punching you, etc.
Do you see this scenario as being the most likely situation in which you would need to defend yourself with deadly force? If so, then you are right in your thinking.

Not all of us see it that way. I do see it that way when I'm out running in my residential neighborhood, but not for day-to-day carry.

This incident just occurred at a grocery store. SHORT VERSION: Couple in a grocery store, three malcontents follow them outside. The trio then followed the couple out of the store into the parking lot, where there was an exchange of "a large amount of gunfire."

I see this sort of defensive situation as far more likely than what you describe above. The self-defense events I read about in various sources support that belief as well. I would not want to be in that situation with a five or six shot revolver, even with a speed-loader or two as spares. Nine shots from my 1911 and one or two spare 8-round mags would make me a lot more comfortable, as would 14 rounds of .357 with another 12 in a spare magazine.

Being equipped is a critical step in self-defense, but I think you would agree that it is impossible to be equipped for every scenario. Thus it is foolish to be better equipped for a less likely scenario at the expense of one more likely. Now, if you genuinely believe that grappling with robbers is more likely than defense from a few feet out or more, then you are wise to pattern your equipment for that scenario. For me, where I live, and the types of crime that occur, a snubby would be foolish.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
IIRC, in that specific case, only having 5 shots probably saved the mom's life. Didn't the BG take the revolver away in the wrestling match, point it at the mom over the counter, pulled the trigger a couple times, and it just went 'click' because the mom had shot all 5.

Not being argumentative. I'm not sure if 5 is better or worse than 15, but in that specific case, it seems like the mom was lucky she only had 5.
In that case both girls were armed, the mother a revolver, the daughter a semi auto. The problem with that shooting is location/shot placement. The mother fired 5 rounds, BUT only connected with one in the leg.

Let's consider statistics, the chances of being a victim of a violent crime are extremely slim, the chances of needing more than 5 rounds are also slim. Practice, practice, practice in case you win the criminal lottery, and are picked. But with good common sense, and situational awareness your odds of being picked are way down.

I know not everybody can have multiple dogs in a fenced yard, but it has kept our home safe for over 20 years. My first line is my dogs, my second is a 50 pound bow, like to keep my hearing. After that it is a 22lr Ruger Mark III, again like to keep my hearing.

Bows have been proven successful in home defense many times, and their capacity is as many arrows as you can hold in your hand with your bow. With regular practice I can get off an arrow every 2 seconds easily hitting a pie plate at ten yards without aiming(instinct shooting).

The 22lr has also been proven successful in home invasion situations. One case in Smithville years ago the elderly home owner stopped the attacker with a NAA 22lr revolver. Another case in SC a female stopped a rapist in a motel with a 22lr semi auto. ONE shot to the chest was all it took.

But IMO the best home defense weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun. If you don't mind the ringing ears, or the loss of some hearing permanently.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:27 AM
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What or where is a source for real and credible data that would indicate the statistics of where or in what kind of proximity that most SELF DEFENSE incidents happen?

The facts are the facts. If the facts show most SD to civilians occurs within say 3 feet and/or grappling with a single assailant. Then it would seem that revolver would be more appropriate. If more than 5 tp 10 feet, or more than one bad guy, then the semi auto might be a better choice.

One training course I was in taught by a Sheriff police chief said this “remember, most predators travel in packs. And a criminal is a predator.”

His point was twofold. First do not look like the weakest gazzel in the herd, as a predator always chooses the weakest to prey upon. Secondly always be aware of situational awareness and if one bad guy makes himself known, be extremely vigilent and expect and look around for #2 and # 3 bad guy!
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:45 AM
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Where is there a definitive place to get credible data on SELF DEFENSE statistics, especially proximity information. That is how close was the encounter between the bad guy and the armed civilian.

It would seem that if the vast majority of the SD situations occurred within about 3 feet and/or grappling with a single a single bad guy, then the revolver may be the best choice based on the odds. However if the majority of SD is outside of 6 feet and not in physical contact and/or more than one bad guy, the semi-auto mighr be the best choice.

One SD training class I took the Sherrif chief of police stated: “Remember, most predators travel and hunt in packs, and criminals are predators”

His point was twofold: first predators look for the weakest lamb in the herd. Don't be the weakest, pay attention, be alert, walk with intention, be on guard etc. secondly, if a bad guy makes himself known, expect him to NOT be alone. Engage the threat if necessary but look around and do not fixate ONLY on the perpetrator in fromt of you and Get blindsided, as his buddy is pissed off at you for shooting his friend, and attacks you from out Behind or to the side of you.

He also always reiterated that the best gunfight is the one you AVOID! Do not put yourself into bad places or situations/circumstances. and if you recognize you inadvertently stumbled into such a case. Get the hell out of there asap!
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Old 06-16-2018, 11:24 AM
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Life is all about trade-offs.

I carry a 5 shot (or sometimes 6 shot 327 Federal) revolver.

I think it's adequate for the level of threat I face.

Also, if all I had was a 1911, I wouldn't carry it. To heavy, and too big to conceal in summer clothes -- t-shirt and shorts.

If I lived in an higher crime area where I felt a 1911 (or Glock 19, etc.) was really needed, I'd move to a better neighborhood.

My whole existence is not going to revolve around self defense -- where I never go out doors without being prepared for any possible problem. I have other things in my life.

Now I have been considered the possibility of moving to an auto like an LC9 -- which I can carry in my pocket and weighs the same as a revolver.

Perhaps the 8 rounds (7+1) of 9mm would offer an advantage over 6 rounds of 327 Federal or 5 rounds of 357 Magnum that I get with my pocket revolvers.
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Old 06-16-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
I've always figured I'd be dead if it came to the point that I needed to reload.
Well, if that line of thinking means you don't carry a reload, then if/when you're ever in that position, that pretty much becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy - doesn't it?
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Old 06-16-2018, 11:58 AM
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Well, if that line of thinking means you don't carry a reload, then if/when you're ever in that position, that pretty much becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy - doesn't it?
I carry reloads out of years of habit. BUT most bad guys do not give time outs to reload.
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:17 PM
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Three things tend to cure one hand semi auto limp wrist shooting. Hot ammo, custom light spring, or well worn semi auto. More power or lighter/worn spring seems to eliminate one hand problems.
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Old 06-16-2018, 05:05 PM
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I am at heart a revolver guy. I have always loved handguns, particularly revolvers. My first love was single action cowboy revolvers. As an adult, especially as a parent, I did not see the practicality of those for self-defense. I soon learned to love the S&W DA revolver (and a couple of Ruger SP101s) for their practicality as a CCW. They had to be all steel of course. After a short while, I found that they just weren't very practical due to the weight. I could carry them, but not very comfortably. I then evolved to the 642 hammerless J frame. Just a great carry gun. Light weight and practical. I did not feel outgunned. I like durability and reliability in a pistol. "Plastic" guns were just not on my radar. Finally, I reasoned that Glocks had been on the market for a very long time and have proven to be both durable and reliable. So, I transitioned to a S&W Shield. The Shield was much easier to shoot compared to the J frame due to me having developed cysts on the tendons of my shooting hands.

Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him. In other cases, psychosis was a factor in an assailant failing to be stopped. Carrying a J frame with a couple of speed strips or speed loaders would give me 15 rounds of ammo. A Shield with an 8 round mag and two 8 round spare mags would give me 24 rounds. Just as easily carried as the J frame. The Shield has proven to be a reliable weapon. We often say, "It is better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it". The same can be said of ammunition "It is better to have more rounds and not need them then to need them and not have them". We carry our weapons because we are preparing for the unexpected. With the unexpected, you never know what to expect, so expect the worst and prepare for it as best you can. I can carry a Shield just as easily and inexpensively as I can a J frame, with more ammo. An auto can jam, but so can a revolver. Today's autos have improved so much and so has the ammo. I love a revolver as much as the next guy. And, it often depends on your environment what threats you face. On the road, traveling away from home, my Shield is now my go to gun. Many people carry a revolver for the sake of nostalgia. My family's lives are too important to gamble for nostalgia's sake.
Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.
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Old 06-16-2018, 06:52 PM
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I can assure all that when the rounds are inbound no matter what you are carrying you'll feel it isn't a big enough gun, enough guns, and enough ammo.
On Oct 2, 1996 we were attempting to arrest a subject wanted on a warrant. I was off duty after hours when I got a call from one of my SAs that he had located the subject in a hotel room. I was at dinner with my wife carrying my S&W 649 and had 2 speed loaders. When we attempted the arrest he opened up on us with a TEC9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing 11 rounds at us as fast as he could work the triggers. That 649 felt pretty small and not enough. Wish I had a bigger gun, with more ammo, and more guns on me.
11 months later we were attempting to make an arrest on a woman holed up in her house. She was armed with a Marlin 12 ga loaded with Hornady sabot slugs. I was carrying my issued S&W 5904, a S&W 645, the aforementioned S&W 649, and a Remington 12 ga. When she let loose with one of those slugs that went thru 2 sides of a garage I can assure everyone that what I was carrying seemed pretty small and not enough.
And with both incidents it didn't matter that I had plenty of friends heavily armed with handguns, shotguns, and SMGs. What I was carrying was all that matter to me at the time.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Thorton View Post
Bingo ! (that's how I fool myself into carrying a snubby)
I carry my little 1971-72 Model 36 every single day. I could plan for being attacked by a mob of people because it has happened to people before, but I've also heard people have won the lottery too, but I'm not making my preparations for when I win it.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
Do you see this scenario as being the most likely situation in which you would need to defend yourself with deadly force? If so, then you are right in your thinking.

Not all of us see it that way. I do see it that way when I'm out running in my residential neighborhood, but not for day-to-day carry.

This incident just occurred at a grocery store. SHORT VERSION: Couple in a grocery store, three malcontents follow them outside. The trio then followed the couple out of the store into the parking lot, where there was an exchange of "a large amount of gunfire."

I see this sort of defensive situation as far more likely than what you describe above. The self-defense events I read about in various sources support that belief as well. I would not want to be in that situation with a five or six shot revolver, even with a speed-loader or two as spares. Nine shots from my 1911 and one or two spare 8-round mags would make me a lot more comfortable, as would 14 rounds of .357 with another 12 in a spare magazine.

Being equipped is a critical step in self-defense, but I think you would agree that it is impossible to be equipped for every scenario. Thus it is foolish to be better equipped for a less likely scenario at the expense of one more likely. Now, if you genuinely believe that grappling with robbers is more likely than defense from a few feet out or more, then you are wise to pattern your equipment for that scenario. For me, where I live, and the types of crime that occur, a snubby would be foolish.
If I were a criminal and attempting to rob someone, provided I'm close enough, if they went to pull a gun, the first thing I'd do is try and get my hand on it and the other would be throwing punches. However, if I were a criminal I'd be smart enough to bring my own gun, make sure I catch someone off guard and if they went for a gun shoot them before they could even get it out. I'd say nowadays and auto or revolver would be sufficient for SD. I get the logic on wanting to have more ammo because I was one of those people my whole life. Never used to like revolvers because of lack of ammo and longer reload times. Once I sat and thought about it though, it seems like it's more about who gets the drop on who. If someone creeps up behind you and has a gun pointed at your back, don't matter if you have a 5 shot 38 special or a 21 round 9mm Sig 320 (with the extended mag), if they see you making any sudden movements, you could be shot dead before you ever get it out. If you see something suspicion going on and happen to get your gun out first, even if 2 or 3 people are standing in front of you, which one you think will go for their gun first? I can cap 2 of them at least before any get their guns out and still have 3 more shots. This argument over auto versus revolver will never have an answer. It's all about whatmakes people feel safe. After that, it's all about your awareness. If someone is completely oblivious to anything going on around them, it won't matter what kind of gun they have. Or, say some teenage kid walking down the street looking for someone to shoot as an initiation to a gang (they were doing that around Chicago for a while a few years back), it's gonna be hard to see that coming. If you just randomly get picked and they bust out a gun and fire away, you may not even be able to pull your gun. There again, the type of gun makes no added benefit regardless of what kind it is. I feel perfectly fine carrying my 5 shot 38 special and don't think twice about it. Anything is possible, so I could have a Shotgun and assault rifle in the car "just in case" and have several handguns with backup mags and everything because I might get swarmed by people trying to hurt or rob me. Those things have and do happen. However, people also win the lottery all the time, but I'm not calling realtors trying to have a house lined up "just in case." personally, I couldn't care less what anyone carries and I wish the revolver trend that's picking up would go away so I can buy these old Smiths and Colts for cheaper, but they still make great weapons. It always seemed to me, if someone chooses an auto because it has more rounds "just in case" that they should also buy a gun in the biggest caliber possible "just in case." why not carry a .45 or bigger just because you "may" need it? At what point does being prepared end and what if's take over? Where does one draw the line? I carry a revolver which is no better or worse than anyone else's choice in my book. Personally, if I had to go up against someone in a shootout, I'd prefer they had and auto just because jams to occur more often than in a revolver. That's just me, but that's how I feel about it. I carry a revolver, speed strips and a pair of brass knuckles with a spring assisted knife inside it. That's all I need to keep me and my dog safe. However, I'm also broke and don't make a good target to rob so there's always that. Problem is that too many people pay no attention to what goes on around them. As time moves forward, more and more people bury themselves in their phones everywhere they go. Walking down the street, in a store anywhere. I think awareness of your surroundings is more important than what you carry as is who gets the drop on who.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
I can assure all that when the rounds are inbound no matter what you are carrying you'll feel it isn't a big enough gun, enough guns, and enough ammo.
On Oct 2, 1996 we were attempting to arrest a subject wanted on a warrant. I was off duty after hours when I got a call from one of my SAs that he had located the subject in a hotel room. I was at dinner with my wife carrying my S&W 649 and had 2 speed loaders. When we attempted the arrest he opened up on us with a TEC9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other, firing 11 rounds at us as fast as he could work the triggers. That 649 felt pretty small and not enough. Wish I had a bigger gun, with more ammo, and more guns on me.
11 months later we were attempting to make an arrest on a woman holed up in her house. She was armed with a Marlin 12 ga loaded with Hornady sabot slugs. I was carrying my issued S&W 5904, a S&W 645, the aforementioned S&W 649, and a Remington 12 ga. When she let loose with one of those slugs that went thru 2 sides of a garage I can assure everyone that what I was carrying seemed pretty small and not enough.
And with both incidents it didn't matter that I had plenty of friends heavily armed with handguns, shotguns, and SMGs. What I was carrying was all that matter to me at the time.
I think that is far more logical than arguing over which type of gun is better. Tha k you for sharing that. This debate on which is better is a Neverending argument that will never have a happy conclusion. There will always be those in favor of both sides. I think it's nice that we even have THAT many choices out there!
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:09 AM
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Guys who have been in many more gunfights than I, Jim Cirillo NYPD,
who's record was 19 & 0, and Bob Stasch Chicago PD, 14 gunfights,
both said the one shot stop is very rare. Jim only saw 2 one-shot stops,
both to the brain. Bob only saw one.
One shot stops with a handgun, even in the hands of professionals, is
extremely rare. On the other hand, the majority of self defense shootings
are resolved with 2.7 shots.
So carrying the 5 shot revolver, as I and many others do, we know we
are betting with the odds in our favor, but it is still better than falling into
the fetal position and crying for our mommy.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:33 PM
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Hey, as Jeff Cooper once said.....if you can't get it done with 5 rounds then you should probably re-think your situation.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:39 PM
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By the way.....my favorite every day carry is my Model 36 in a OWB pancake holster with 2 Speed strips. Since I retired from the LEO job, I don't go sticking my nose in other people's business anymore, so this will serve me well.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.
I wholeheartedly agree. If I can't take down someone with 5 shots, I don't need to be pulling out my gun and trying to begin with. I carry a 1971 Model 36 because I love the old school look, so some nostalgia plays into it for me, but if I didn't carry an old 5 shot, I'd carry a new one anyhow. People seem to think these days that if it isn't brand new and the most state of the art option available, you may as well be throwing a rock. I say screw that. I don't need 21 rounds of ammo. If I do, then I should be finding a way out instead of trying to engage the situation to begin with. Hell, if anything, at the very least, 5 shots can get me out the door or away from the situation at least. I don't have kids, I only have my dog, and regardless of what anyone says, I love my dog as much as anyone loves their kids. My dog is my kid to me. I'd never let anyone hurt her or take her from me. I feel we are safe with a revolver and that I can diffuse any serious situation with 5 shots and some back up rounds. I'm not saying one style of gun is better than the other, but a lot of people are real quick to discredit a revolver because of ammo capacity. I used to. Growing up, I've been shooting since I was 7 or 8 years old and never liked revolvers because I listened to the hype. Then I realized I'll probably never need it anyways and if I do, it'll most likely be up close and only a few shots exchanged. Yeah, anything can happen, a rock could fall out of the sky and hit me in the head, but I don't walk around wearing a Helmut. I don't even wear one on a motorcycle even after going down at 60 mph. I also don't wear my seatbelt, but a crash is always possible. I'm still alive and fine to comment on this post. I am at the point now (from someone who swore he'd never own a revolver) to having 6 of them and only 3 autos and I only plan on buying revolvers from here on except for a 1911 and a Beretta 92FS. The Beretta is for nostalgia's sake. That was a popular gun when I was younger and that's the only reason I want one is because I have always liked them. In reality it's about who gets the drop on who first and the first one to get off an accurate shot. Those are far more important than kind or caliber.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.
I'd be interested in hearing about all the shoot outs you've been involved in. How many rounds fired? How many people were shooting? What was the available cover?
Someone with all the deadly force experience of you, Earp, and Hickok should be very helpful to those who haven't been involved in any shootings.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:23 PM
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I carry a Kimber K6 with a speed strip
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:41 PM
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I guess you got to do what gives you peace of mind. I think my 2 J-frames and the reloads that I carry is enough to keep me safe. So far so good.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:11 PM
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Default THE WOMAN IN THE LIQUOR STORE.

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Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post
The one that comes to mind is the mother & daughter liquor store shooting (and other convenient store shootings). A home invasion video. I've also read/seen video's about multiple armed thug scenarios.

Based on some of the responses, this is why I've been hesitant to ask this question. But I do appreciate them. My goal isn't to change anyone's thoughts, just understand better.

As for me, I accept my J frame limitations while at home. But it's also based on my current home security set-up (cameras, barricaded front door, neighborhood, etc.).
After her gun was taken from her (in this particular case) she was lucky the gun was empty. That's my takeaway anyhow.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:01 PM
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I hear ya !
Amazing how under even that kind of stress/adrenaline dump his muscle memory still over ruled. Interesting to note your comment about you fight like you trained because of that general rule you never surrender your gun and yet in that Onion field incident that gets his partner killed, so it seems that panic is still there. No matter what the training is.

I mention this because we hear a lot about what people will do if confronted. Truth is even the best don't really know.

I can recall every action I took over my life when I was confronted and if you are a person who over reacts or is hot head to begin with might be a bad idea to even carry a stick.

Another truth is most training goes right out the window and when it's all said and done it was luck.
Case in point many years ago out in Cali, got held up from around 40 feet away down low behind a car door and looking down the barrel of a rifle. And I argued with him.

He finally told me to walk before he killed me.
If I make a play for a gun I'm dead before my hand gets to it.

The shocking value to that was it didn't dawn on me for quite awhile and even now 40 years later I still can't believe I argued with him. It was a gang initiation of you got to kill somebody to join.
I agree. That's basically the point I made in other comments. I'm that case it didn't matter what kind of gun you had or what caliber it was, they had the drop on you and that was that. Good story. You definitely do not know what you'd do until your life depended on it.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:07 PM
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Well, I think the world I live in (as a retired computer engineer) is a lot different than the situation faced by a police officer.

I don't get involved stopping crimes that don't involve me or my wife, I don't arrest bad guys.

If I see a problem I run away from it. If an officer sees a problem he runs towards it.

So I think 5 rounds can stop a mugging at an ATM (for example).

Frankly, I'm thinking the opposite from you in that I think I might need more rounds if my home is invaded by multiple bad guys.

I'm considering keeping something with 8 or more rounds on me at home. Or perhaps two J frames.
If at home, may I suggest a S&W 627PC w/8-shots. Love mine, as it is same caliber as my other handguns and has enough rounds to "almost" be a pistolero...
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:18 PM
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Thumbs up Kimber K6S

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Originally Posted by oldsman70 View Post
I carry a Kimber K6 with a speed strip
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Just ordered one to replace my J-Frame 642. A couple of reasons:
  1. Kimber has an additional round
  2. This Kimber is Stainless Steel and not the gawd ugly discolored aluminum powder coat.
  3. Love the Kimber rounded edges, ALL of them!
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:24 PM
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I live a pretty low risk life. I've always figured I'd be dead if it came to the point that I needed to reload.
My risks have gone down since my wife retired .. She had worked at a bank for over 30 years and I would drop her off in the mornings sometimes and waited for her to get inside and give me our all safe symbol for that day .. She was the first one there and opened the bank up for other employees ..

If she drove herself she would call me after opening up .. There were times we were worried about copy cat Perps who might have found where we lived .. when a bank manager was kidnapped and used for the robbery else where .. I was in the habit when I dropped her off to have my Beretta PX4 ..

so my awareness has always been at a higher state of alert .. much more then most other people .. even before we have had conceal carry in Illinois ..
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post
First off, I'm not trying to offend anyone or ruffle any feathers. Everyone is free to carry whatever they wish or feel comfortable with. I worked with several cops over the years that only carried a J frame or .380 and no re-load for it.

I own 3 J frames and several other wheel guns. In fact, my house carry is a 5 shot S&W 340 in .38 spl (see below). It's light enough to wear tucked into the waistband of draw sting elastic waist shorts. I also have quick access to larger/higher capacity guns near by.

But with that said, when I go out into the world, I almost feel naked if I don't have at least 8 rounds in the gun (preferably 10 or more) & a re-load.

For those that just carry a 5 shot, why do you feel that's enough gun in today's crazy world? In most of the real life videos I've seen, 5 rounds just doesn't seem enough. Nor is there time for a reload. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, just trying to understand.



I used to feel the same way. My whole life I hated revolvers. I loved many autos since I was a kid, and never liked a revolver. As of about 2 years ago I started to like them a lot. It occurred to me that I've never in 36 years had to shoot anyone and I've never been robbed or assaulted and the chances of it are pretty slim. Yes it CAN happen so that's why I carry, but I feel perfectly confident with 5 and a couple speed strips. I feel it's not so much what you carry, but how you use it. If someone gets a gun on you before you get yours out, it's too late to grab your's without getting shot and if you get yours on the bad guy before they get theirs out, it's too late for them unless they want to get shot. Plenty of things CAN happen, but most likely 5 will be fine. Back up if I need them. I also believe in fate very very very strongly. I figure if 5 isn't enough and I end up dead, my time had come and regardless of HOW it happened, I'd have been dead anyway from a heart attack or whatever. If it's not my time, God will see me through the situation with what I have. Besides, I don't do much these days and I don't do dumb things like I used to so the chances of something happening are slim. Each of my 5 bullets can kill just as easily as the bad guys. I guess maybe I just don't worry about it that much. Nothing seriously bad has ever happened to me. I'm very very thankful for that, but if you believe in a higher power, whatever you call it, something has been looking out for me since the day I was born and I trust it. Many a sticky situations he got me out of so I just don't worry about it that much.

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Old 06-21-2018, 07:37 PM
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I carry a j frame because it is always there. I guess an lcp would be, too. I just can't afford to be throwing money at every gun I want.

Lots of good reading in this thread.

Last edited by max503; 06-21-2018 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.
Now you know that both of those men had spare ammo on their belt right?
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:04 PM
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I'm sorry I missed this before.
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Originally Posted by otis24 View Post
Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him.
If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.
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Old 06-21-2018, 11:24 PM
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5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
5 Gun-fighting Myths - Massad Ayoob | 1911Addicts -The Premiere 1911 Forum For Enthusiasts

an interesting story why you need more the 5 or 6 shoots .. and officers who survive because they had those additional bullets to fire ..
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm sorry I missed this before. If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.
The referenced article was apparently from an old issue of Combat Handguns... Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:31 AM
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Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.

Not sure what stupid videos you've been watching, but 5 rounds of .38 wadcutters will knock any man down!! Don't blame the equipment if you can't make it work.

The J-frame .38 is the best concealable fightsman's pistol extand and will remain so. The unreliable bottom-feeding autos that jam every time you look at them are NOT suitable for defense work. The J-frame WILL AND CANNOT EVER JAM under any circumstance, five rounds will ALWAYS be enough if you can shoot, and...

Oh who am I kidding, the man that packs a J-frame and no reload is better armed than most, since most aren't armed. But today with the vast array of extremely reliable and concealable semi-autos, they are severely handicapped.

Easy to get hung up in the nostalgia, but look at them as the tools they are before anything else. The J-frame is obsolete, it's just that a lot of people won't accept it.

Last edited by JayFramer; 06-22-2018 at 12:33 AM.
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Old 06-22-2018, 04:23 AM
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As a working LEO my backup was a J-frame .38. Now, it is my EDC. I accept the limitations, in favor of weight and concealabilaty.
Question: How many of you carry 24/7? Even at home? I do.
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