5 Shot Snubby of CCW?

Rastoff · #**151** 06-22-2018, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayFramer

Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.

I have defended using a revolver, even using a single action, but this attitude is misplaced.

From the article posted by Mister X:

Quote:

We can all sit comfortably in our armchairs, raise an eyebrow and curl our lips in a sneer, and say, "These men didn't know what they were doing! Why, my instructor or I would have killed all those goblins with a single well-placed .45 slug and would have blown them out of their socks!"

This theory works fine in the armchair. It sounds great when delivered in stentorian tones by the lawyer addressing the jury from the plaintiff's podium. It does not, however, always fly on the street.

Just because a .38Spl can stop a bad guy doesn't mean it will. Remember, you have to hit that bad guy with that tiny piece of lead. That's easy to say on the internet, but not so easy to do in practice, even at a quiet range. It's very difficult to do under the pressure of potentially being killed by a moving, angry bad guy who's got body armor or is on drugs.

Wise_A · #**152** 06-22-2018, 04:25 PM

Quote:

The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead.

Why does everyone think that head shots are 100% effective? News flash: if these guys didn't have thick skulls, you wouldn't need to shoot them in the first place. On a related note, carrying less ammunition doesn't magically make you a better shot.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

It was only the second head shot that stopped Gramins' attacker. I'd also point out that Gramins was a master instructor and sniper. He was probably knew a thing or two about shooting under stress.

ISCS Yoda · #**153** 06-22-2018, 05:12 PM

I prefer revolvers and when I can I like to carry a snubbie K frame with 6 rounds. But carrying a J-frame with 5 rounds satisfies my daily needs as far as I am concerned. I don't go to bad places, I mind my business, and I can put bullets where they need to go. When I go to places with a higher possibility of attack from haters I will switch to a 9mm with 7 rounds (CS-9) or even 12 (6906). Otherwise, I am very comfortable with my 5 rounds.

Quote:

"Never get into a fight with an old man. He can't run, and he can't fight, so he'll just kill you." Now that I'm an older guy (62), that saying describes me quite well.

The parallel that I am aware of is "Never make an old man mad; he'll kill you" but methinks that's a paraphrase of what is quoted above. AFAIK is comes from Lazarus Long, the fictional hero/space cop of a series of science fiction books of more than a half century ago by Robert Heinlein. The older I get the more I like that line.......

---------------------------------------

I researched it, just for fun - it took a while, too!

Quote:

Never frighten a little man. He'll kill you.
-- Lazarus Long, from Robert A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love"

According to that great bastion of knowledge known as the Internet that is the proper quote. My own comment above was in error - I never say "old", I always say "small". Now I see it is "little" in the original......so says the Internet..........

BC38 · #**154** 06-22-2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda

The parallel that I am aware of is "Never make an old man mad; he'll kill you" but methinks that's a paraphrase of what is quoted above. AFAIK is comes from Lazarus Long, the fictional hero/space cop of a series of science fiction books of more than a half century ago by Robert Heinlein. The older I get the more I like that line.......

The Lazarus Long series is one of my favorites of all time. Think I'm going to have to re-read them...

Rastoff · #**155** 06-23-2018, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Why does everyone think that head shots are 100% effective?

You're right, just a hit in the head isn't enough. It has to be in the 4"x3" zone in the center. Only there is it a guaranteed stop.

cmgee67 · #**156** 06-23-2018, 08:18 AM

It’s super easy to get caught up in the tacticool world today. I used to buy into it. I carried a Glock 19 for almost three years and the switched to a 43 and now I’m to my 642-1. I have come to realization that 5 rounds is sufficient for me. I carry an extra 5 on the belt if I need more which I doubt I ever will. People always say carry the best gun you can into a gun fight. Well if that’s true I dang sure ain’t taking just a pistol I’m grabbing a long gun of sorts. Look, I’m not planning on getting in a gun fight. I am more proficient and shoot my revolvers betters than I do my autos so I carry my revolver. You can be fast with reloads and that’s something I do practice. I used to feel how you do and think I must have at least 9 rounds in the gun but such is not the case. With age comes wisdom I suppose.

fredj338 · #**157** 06-23-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66 shooter

Hey, as Jeff Cooper once said.....if you can't get it done with 5 rounds then you should probably re-think your situation.

Nice platitude but reality is we rarely get to choose our fight. 5rds might be fine for an unarmed thug. Two armed men, now what? You are dead man walking if they have any skill level. Today, with so many small effective semi, why carry a 5shot much less two? A g26 is about the same size & wt as a j-frame. Easier to shoot, more rds & faster reload if needed. I love revos, but if I am edc, it is not my first choice. I dont turn my nose up at those that do but silly statements like Coopers are just that in todays enviro of active shooters & armed terrorists.

fredj338 · #**158** 06-23-2018, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

You're right, just a hit in the head isn't enough. It has to be in the 4"x3" zone in the center. Only there is it a guaranteed stop.

Yeah that one always gets me. The avg shooter can NOT make a standing still head shot on demand in say a very slow 3sec from holster at a very short 15ft, 100% of the time. Now toss in target & you moving, as is 100% possible, add in some low light or darkness, pure fantasy that you are making a headshot.

fredj338 · #**159** 06-23-2018, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayFramer

Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.

Not sure what stupid videos you've been watching, but 5 rounds of .38 wadcutters will knock any man down!! Don't blame the equipment if you can't make it work.

The J-frame .38 is the best concealable fightsman's pistol extand and will remain so. The unreliable bottom-feeding autos that jam every time you look at them are NOT suitable for defense work. The J-frame WILL AND CANNOT EVER JAM under any circumstance, five rounds will ALWAYS be enough if you can shoot, and...

Oh who am I kidding, the man that packs a J-frame and no reload is better armed than most, since most aren't armed. But today with the vast array of extremely reliable and concealable semi-autos, they are severely handicapped.

Easy to get hung up in the nostalgia, but look at them as the tools they are before anything else. The J-frame is obsolete, it's just that a lot of people won't accept it.

Sorry buddy, totally misplaced reality. As previously noted, unarmed thug, yep you are ahead with a 5shot. Two armed attackers, you are likely dead man walking. Not all fights will be at 21ft or less. Mot all fights will be one v one. With todays subcompact 9, little reason to be less armed imo, but I do not denigrate those people making their choices, just pointing out its a bit misguided.

fredj338 · #**160** 06-23-2018, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I'm sorry I missed this before. If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.

Vitals on all adults are about the same size. A 300# guy though has a lot more non vital area than a 150# guy. Why people continue shooting com is they trained that way & likely arent good enough to make a transition to the head in the high speed/stress of a fight. Unless you are shooting & training & visualizing for any fight, you are liley to make such a mental mistake. Without the skill set to hit a tiny target like a moving head, you will continue to pound away com until out of ammo, bad guy wins. Why a 5 shot today, kinda pointless.?
Btw, you run away from any encounter if possible. Can you run from the fat guy with a knife in a public bathroom? There are always situations you will have no choice but to fight, so handicapping yourself for convenience seems a poor trade off, but that is just me. Its the 21st century with 21st century criminals. I'm 62 but I can adapt.

Mister X · #**161** 06-23-2018, 02:49 PM

An altercation with a 300lb man armed with a blade in a bathroom will almost assuredly involve contact being made. If you think you can hold a #2 just because you took a Craig Douglas class, have done some force-on-force training and routinely practice rention shooting at the range, good luck with that.

I'm not much of a huge fan of .357 magnum out of a lightweight snub. I've seen way too many incidents of crimp jump to dismiss it, plus there's the controllability factor and to a lesser degrees, failures in one form or another. Most civilian defense scenarios take place inside 3 yards. One handed shooting is the norm at such distances and justifiably so since mobility and using the off hand for protection are often required and I don't see the relatively slight ballistic advantage the magnum offers worth the trade-offs and risks.

Ziggy2525 · #**162** 06-23-2018, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

An altercation with a 300lb man armed with a blade in a bathroom will almost assuredly involve contact being made. If you think you can hold a #2 just because you took a Craig Douglas class, have done some force-on-force training and routinely practice rention shooting at the range, good luck with that.

I'm not much of a huge fan of .357 magnum out of a lightweight snub. I've seen way too many incidents of crimp jump to dismiss it, plus there's the controllability factor and to a lesser degrees, failures in one form or another. Most civilian defense scenarios take place inside 3 yards. One handed shooting is the norm at such distances and justifiably so since mobility and using the off hand for protection are often required and I don't see the relatively slight ballistic advantage the magnum offers worth the trade-offs and risks.

I agree with your position on j-frames being enough — IF — the risk your protecting against is being the target of an opportunistic predator. You just happen to cross paths with an ambush predator(s) and he/they think you will be an easy mark. They aren’t looking to get shot. I think pocket .380’s work in that scenario also.

If your life circumstances put you at a higher threat level, say from a determined, vengeful ex-husband or an ex-con you put in prison, I’d want more than five. That’s how I look at it anyway.

Wise_A · #**163** 06-23-2018, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

You're right, just a hit in the head isn't enough. It has to be in the 4"x3" zone in the center. Only there is it a guaranteed stop.

We agree on many things, Rastoff.

This is not one of them.

Etalksalot · #**164** 06-24-2018, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyj

When I am invited out I CCW a 12 gauge M870 with magazine extension, a M1 Carbine with a 30 round magazine, two M1911 .45acp pistols, two hand grenades, several fighting knifes, and a flame thrower on wheels.

*** I haven't been invited out in several years. I am unsure if being nude or under armed was the reason ?

I'd say it's a safe bet to say you're ready for whatever! Just need someone who can fly in airstrikes for you when you need it.

Etalksalot · #**165** 06-24-2018, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I have defended using a revolver, even using a single action, but this attitude is misplaced.

From the article posted by Mister X:Just because a .38Spl can stop a bad guy doesn't mean it will. Remember, you have to hit that bad guy with that tiny piece of lead. That's easy to say on the internet, but not so easy to do in practice, even at a quiet range. It's very difficult to do under the pressure of potentially being killed by a moving, angry bad guy who's got body armor or is on drugs.

Very well said! Situational awareness is crucial as is the ability to perform well under intense immediate pressure and it's never gonna go how you expect and no matter if it happens to you once or ten times, you'll always look back and find at least SOMETHING you did wrong and need to improve upon. Something is bound to happen that you don't expect. It's like crashing on a motorcycle, only the people who have experienced it can tell you what they were able to do.

Etalksalot · #**166** 06-25-2018, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HardToHandle

War Story - 20 years ago or so, I joined a department that had recently transitioned from S&W Model 66 to the then newer 4043. The predominant off-duty gun was the J Frame and a few of the most tactically minded guys had purchased 4053s.

There were some mostly younger, more tactically aligned guys who lobbied for allowing personally owned Glocks and SIGs. Two years later, 75% of the officers were carrying something other than Smith & Wesson. Most of the off-duty guns were Glock 23s, SIG P229s and a few G27s. The old guys with mortgages and kids in college were the only guys who didn’t switch. The dozens of guys and gals that switched wanted more rounds, less weight and better ergonomics - on duty and off.

I had a J Frame then with speed strips. I carried a J Frame last week on vacation out of state (swimming pool) and frequently as a winter pocket gun. My frame of reference is five-round J Frames are dated, but nothing carries quite the same.

To the original posters question, I switched to a Glock 26 years ago, which has more than twice as many of a more effective cartridge at an equivalent size to a J Frame. Now I have 12round Magpul magazine that allows 13 to be carried and a tactical light on the Glock. No way a G26 is as comfortable to carry as a J Frame but the additional capacity and speed of reloading were major determinants for me. Bonus is that the G26 shot better for me out of the box and requires less practice to remain proficient.

On capacity, the Trolley Square incident in SLC is what I think of when someone says X-amount of rounds are enough off-duty or in a civllian scenario. Same for the Skokie IL shootout where more than 15 .45ACP rounds did not get the job done against a determined felon.

I am here because I am just old enough to appreciate classic Smiths. My guess is most of the folks speaking up for the five-shot J Frame are over 40 and predisposed to be good shooters.

I am almost 40,but not quite yet, couple more years to go! I do carry a J frame every day, but I am a recent convert to revolvers. I grew up shooting all kinds and I never liked revolvers at all. Always loved semi autos and never wanted anything but. I loved so many of them. As of a couple years ago, I started watching a lot of old black and white private detective shows and movies and being that I love all things 50's-70's I started to wonder why I didn't like revolvers. I bought a snubby and then 4 more of them. I was and am madly in love with a gun I swore I'd NEVER own. I do like them because they are old school, I'll admit to that, but they do make pretty practical guns even still. I believe everyone should own, love and carry whatever they like. If someone doesn't like revolvers then so be it. I guess a lot of people who dislike revolvers feel that they are such and old design and aren't technologically advanced that you may as well throw a rock in self defence. The thing is, for me at least, I cannot speak for other revolver owners, I carry a gun to get me out of a gun fight or out of a self defence situation, not to engage in them. If I'm in a store or a bank, I absolutely will not try to intervene unless it meant my life or someone else's. I am in no way, shape or form trying to die over some money some insurance company may have to pay off. It's not like they'd reward me if I did stop it. I have a gun with enough rounds to, when needed, get me out of harms way and back to safety. If I had to shoot someone in self defence, I'm going to try my best to just incapacitate that person, not kill them. I don't even wanna deal with the legal nightmare of that. If I have a gun that can shoot someone and I get the drop on that person first, I'm going to use it to get me out of there. I don't think more than 5 will "likely" be needed to accomplish that. There is a chance I HAVE to be involved in a firefight, but again, my goal would be to get out of there, not stop everyone shooting at me. It's just that the chances of something like that happening to me are about the same as winning the lottery. Yes it is possible, that's why I carry, but I highly doubt that will ever happen to me.

As far as the church shooting (I believe that's what you were referencing, sorry if I'm wrong), I would never think to take a gun into church. However, had someone been armed in there, even with just 5 rounds, they may have been able to stop the guy before more than a couple or any people were dead. Yes, in that situation, I'd wish I had an auto, but if someone drew a gun as this guy is pulling out his, he could've been dead before anyone else was hurt. I feel any gun is better than no gun. Even my Derringer, when I have to go places I don't want my gun to possibly show, I grab my 38 spec Derringer. It's only 2 single action shots, but at least it's something. Plus I still carry my speed strips just in case. I don't normally carry that, but it still makes me feel a lot safer than not having it. If someone else has a gun out and you point a Derringer at them at close enough range, very many may think twice before doing something stupid because at least one bullet is gonna hit them. I would imagine there are at least a good amount of criminals who would give up at the risk of being shot. Not all would, in fact maybe even most wouldn't, but I'll take it over nothing any day. I'm guessing that played a part in that guy's decision to go to a church. He probably assumed no one would have a gun and criminals will act differently if they know that no one has a gun as opposed to knowing they do. Anything is possible, and if I was in a jam and needed more than my 5 and back up 10 rounds, I'd certainly hope someone with an auto would join in and help out, but the likelihood of that happening to any one person has got to be astronomically small. Again, I think everyone should carry what they want, but I truly belive situational awareness and ability to use what you have play a far larger role in SD situations than the type of gun or caliber it holds. Plus, some people intentionally put themselves in harms way and I dont really do that so I think trouble would have a harder time finding me at an exact location at an exact time for a very short duration. Like I said in other posts, anything is possible, I could even win the lottery, but even though I play I'm not making plans for that giant paycheck because it probably won't happen.

It's just really weird for me though because a couple years ago I was on the other side of the fence and even hated revolvers. I was so far on the other side of the fence, I couldn't even see the fence. Now I wonder how I ever lived without revolvers especially my J frames.

Rastoff · #**167** 06-25-2018, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise_A

We agree on many things, Rastoff.

This is not one of them.

I would be stunned if I ever met anyone that agreed with me 100%. Even so, what is it that we don't agree on here? That shooting someone in the cranial ocular cavity isn't a guaranteed stop?

Rastoff · #**168** 06-25-2018, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

Why a 5 shot today, kinda pointless.?

I don't carry a 5 shot, but I can see some value. Especially in the scenario you've brought up. I can jab a 5 shot revolver in the chest of a bad guy and still fire it. Can't do that with a semi.

Also, we have to live in reality. I can't have the perfect defense for every possible situation that might or might not come up. What I can do, is prepare for the most likely situations. For me, being assaulted by a 300lb guy in a bathroom is so unlikely it's as close to impossible as probability will allow. So, no, I don't train for that.

Wise_A · #**169** 06-25-2018, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I would be stunned if I ever met anyone that agreed with me 100%. Even so, what is it that we don't agree on here? That shooting someone in the cranial ocular cavity isn't a guaranteed stop?

Yes. Principally, bullets can and do bounce off skulls. They'll even do very odd things like enter in the front, travel under the skin, and exit out the back. They'll get stuck in gums and teeth. Skulls are designed to protect the brain from penetrating injuries. That's their job, and they're good at it.

Second, I don't believe striking the CNS guarantees incapacitating damage. Remember this guy?

He wasn't just limping from being hit in the leg. He was shot in the brain. He was conscious, but had difficulty speaking. Still, he got up, made his way to a window, and managed to crawl out of it. If he can do that, I'm pretty sure Cletus can get another couple stabs in.

The immediate results of traumatic brain injuries are unpredictable. Peter and Joan Porco were attacked by their axe-wielding son. After the attack, Peter got up out of bed, retrieved the paper from the front yard, made himself a bowl of cereal, and started back up the stairs before he finally collapsed and died.

Third, I believe the difficulty of the shot must also factor in. The head is a small, moving target. If you miss it, your shot is wholly ineffective. In comparison, the torso is big and full of important stuff. If your counter to my "bullets bounce of skulls" objection is to dismiss such things as misses, well, you might as well ask for someone to simply shoot their attacker's trigger finger off.

Now, to be clear, if you're dumping round after round into the Center of Cletus and he's not dropping, it's time to shoot someplace else. But to me, a lot of the "just aim for the head" hyperbole sounds an awful lot like "just shoot the knife/gun out of his hand".

Walkingwolf · #**170** 06-25-2018, 10:58 AM

I have an unusual way of looking at carry. It is pretty simple, stay within the law, carry what YOU feel is the best choice for YOU. No need in debating it with persons who will likely never wear your shoes.

Etalksalot · #**171** 06-25-2018, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telecaster

Why not have two spare tires in your trunk instead of one?

Why not install a sprinkler system in your house in case of fire?

Why not wear body armor 24/7?

Why not put bullet resistant glass in your home's windows?

These are all things you can do, but few do them. Wonder why?

Bingo! That is correct.

fredj338 · #**172** 06-25-2018, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

I don't carry a 5 shot, but I can see some value. Especially in the scenario you've brought up. I can jab a 5 shot revolver in the chest of a bad guy and still fire it. Can't do that with a semi.

Also, we have to live in reality. I can't have the perfect defense for every possible situation that might or might not come up. What I can do, is prepare for the most likely situations. For me, being assaulted by a 300lb guy in a bathroom is so unlikely it's as close to impossible as probability will allow. So, no, I don't train for that.

Unlikely is why we carry though isn't it? Again, I am fine with anyone's choice, but the rationalizations are funny for the most part. As to contact shooting, can be done with a semi, just don't push it into the guys body. Unless he is on top of me, I can likely do that.
BTW, any situation I can think of has actually happened at one time or another so saying it is unlikely is like saying I am fine playing golf in a lighting storm. Unlikely to be hit until you are. I just like people to think thru their decisions before committing because you ultimately live or die with that decision.

Etalksalot · #**173** 06-25-2018, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ingramite

Let me set finances aside for a moment to consider if I would wear a Rolex or a Timex wrist watch?

If I still had an "outside job" working with my hands I would probably be practical and pick the budget timepiece.

But I'm at a place in my life where I enjoy the touch of nice things. I would probably chose a Rolex today. I would enjoy looking at it. Cleaning it and fondling it. They are beautiful, classic, and something to pass to one of my sons.

I don't wear a watch though. I have a smart phone that I can't escape. My job requires that I'm always in contact. So I carry that cellphone in a fine leather case instead of in a Wal*Mart toe sack stuck up under my belt.
If I want to know what time it is....I whip out that fancy cellphone of mine.

I carry my weapon everyday. I don't get into a gunfight everyday.

When my feet hit the floor I think about the Lucchese elephant boots that I'm going to slip my feet down into. I think about the Ranger belt with the silver buckle set and the starched jeans with creases. The starched roper long sleeve shirt. The Resistol or Stetson hat of the day.

Right then I decide if I'm going to want to carry a beautiful, classic S&W revolver or a sharp stick. I hold it up and admire the classic lines. The heft is comforting. It's cool steel from spending the night on the bedside table will soon be my own body temperature from the most intimate and personal contact with me. All day long I will be enjoying the comfort and luxury of that fine firearm next to me.

Why?
Because I can.

I have some semi-autos that I can shoot much further much more accurately. My finger gets tired pulling the trigger before I run out of rounds. I just don't get the same esthetic feel from them that I get from my steel S&W revolvers. They lack the beauty and feel of quality that my revolvers give me.

So what I'm telling you is that I could run a foot race better in sport trainers or tennis shoes but I feel better in a nice pair of boots. It's about what I do. The accessories that I choose for my mission.

Either you dig this trip or it's blowing past ya.
I'm not going to worry about shooting 5 guys tomorrow or 19 guys. I'm gonna worry about "The Total Package" of being outfitted with gear that will fit my needs, with style and class.

So is 5 rounds enough for what I have to do tomorrow?
I'm really thinking about this silver rodeo buckle that I saw last week end. It had this chrome plated, pearl handled one shot derringer mounted to it on a spring loaded hinge. You mash a hidden button on the top of the buckle and it springs out into action, firing a shot into the gut of the person standing in front of you.

Yeah, the longer I'm studying on this....I could probably get by tomorrow with just one bullet.

Very nice, I personally can dig it.

Etalksalot · #**174** 06-25-2018, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

I carry reloads out of years of habit. BUT most bad guys do not give time outs to reload.

Bad guys gotta reload too! Except in the movies.

Etalksalot · #**175** 06-25-2018, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
5 Gun-fighting Myths - Massad Ayoob | 1911Addicts -The Premiere 1911 Forum For Enthusiasts

an interesting story why you need more the 5 or 6 shoots .. and officers who survive because they had those additional bullets to fire ..

I think autos are great for law enforcement, but not everyone is a police officer. They can be in harms way a lot especially based on where you work. If I had went into LE like I originally was going to, I'd expect at some point I'd have to shoot it out with someone regardless of where I work. I'd imagine that's a hazard of the job. However, I'm not in LE and I stay out of trouble these days. My chances of being involved in a big shootout are much smaller than someone who is issued a gun as part of the job.

Walkingwolf · #**176** 06-25-2018, 04:41 PM

Has MA ever been in a gun fight? If he has I have not come across the accounts of it.

Rastoff · #**177** 06-25-2018, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

Unlikely is why we carry though isn't it?

Indeed, but I find it interesting that when some have an issue with a particular choice, they always come up with an even more unlikely scenario.

Case in point:
I have ridden motorcycles a lot. I prefer a full face helmet. A friend once told me, "I'll never wear a full face helmet. If you go down, and are sliding feet first under a truck, the chin bar will catch on the rear axle can break your neck." True story and he only wore half helmets. But think about it, even if what he said about the chin bar were true (which is isn't), what are the odds of a person crashing their bike and sliding feet first under a truck? So rare I'll bet it's never happened.

Has someone been attacked by a 300lb person in a public bathroom? I'm sure it's happened. The possibility is just so low for me that I don't take it into consideration. I try to think of the most likely, and realistic, situations for me and prepare for those. Then if the weird one happens, I'm at least a little ready because of my practice.

Heck, I'll just settle for a person to practice anything at all with their carry gun because most don't. If there's no practice, it really doesn't matter what you carry. You'll be equally unprepared no matter what.

sigp220.45 · #**178** 06-26-2018, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

Has MA ever been in a gun fight? If he has I have not come across the accounts of it.

He was an unpaid reserve officer in Grantham, NH, population 3,000. I don’t think he’s been anywhere near a gunfight.

Imissedagain · #**179** 06-26-2018, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diyj98

I live a pretty low risk life. I've always figured I'd be dead if it came to the point that I needed to reload.

Funny!!!

A low risk life and never smile in public..... most will not bother us........ AND
Don’t show up to sit in with a band, playing in a Biker bar, with my:
Harley Harley made of tin
Ride it out and push it in.
Baseball Cap.

A 460 Snub .... 5 shots that may prevent reloading.

Wise_A · #**180** 06-26-2018, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

Has MA ever been in a gun fight? If he has I have not come across the accounts of it.

While, to an extent, that argument holds (some) water, I would suggest the following:

(1) Being in a gunfight doesn't tell you very much about gunfights in general. Just the one you were in.

(2) I can't think of anybody who has studied more cases, and interviewed more survivors, than Ayoob.

In this case, I can't find anything to disagree with him on:

*Sometimes you need more than five or six shots.
*If your gun or extra magazine is in your car, you might as well have left it at home.
*Practicing point/instinctive shooting is good.
*Practicing aimed fire is good.
*Learning to hit stuff further than 3 yards away is good.

Imissedagain · #**181** 06-26-2018, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Indeed, but I find it interesting that when some have an issue with a particular choice, they always come up with an even more unlikely scenario.

Case in point:
I have ridden motorcycles a lot. I prefer a full face helmet. A friend once told me, "I'll never wear a full face helmet. If you go down, and are sliding feet first under a truck, the chin bar will catch on the rear axle can break your neck." True story and he only wore half helmets. But think about it, even if what he said about the chin bar were true (which is isn't), what are the odds of a person crashing their bike and sliding feet first under a truck? So rare I'll bet it's never happened.

Has someone been attacked by a 300lb person in a public bathroom? I'm sure it's happened. The possibility is just so low for me that I don't take it into consideration. I try to think of the most likely, and realistic, situations for me and prepare for those. Then if the weird one happens, I'm at least a little ready because of my practice.

Heck, I'll just settle for a person to practice anything at all with their carry gun because most don't. If there's no practice, it really doesn't matter what you carry. You'll be equally unprepared no matter what.

Full face masks prevent a driving sleet storm from alternating your facial features.

As well as bugs, etc etc.
1965 was the first time I remember those wonderful helmets being sold at Ghost Motorcycle in Port Washington NY.
Made my day!!!

Walkingwolf · #**182** 06-26-2018, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise_A

While, to an extent, that argument holds (some) water, I would suggest the following:

(1) Being in a gunfight doesn't tell you very much about gunfights in general. Just the one you were in.

(2) I can't think of anybody who has studied more cases, and interviewed more survivors, than Ayoob.

In this case, I can't find anything to disagree with him on:

*Sometimes you need more than five or six shots.
*If your gun or extra magazine is in your car, you might as well have left it at home.
*Practicing point/instinctive shooting is good.
*Practicing aimed fire is good.
*Learning to hit stuff further than 3 yards away is good.

MA once wrote that the 357 sig was so powerful he killed a snake by missing the snake completely. This was an outright fabrication as the myth of sonic shock waves have been clearly proved false.

Some of the most famous gunfighters from Chicago, and NYPD were in many gunfights with revolvers. Not just one fight, but multiple.

Muss Muggins · #**183** 06-26-2018, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

He was an unpaid reserve officer in Grantham, NH, population 3,000. I don’t think he’s been anywhere near a gunfight.

Only vicariously . . .

nachogrande · #**184** 06-26-2018, 11:51 AM

CLASSICS don't become classics for nothing. If you learn anything here, it's that what is right for 1 person, IS NOT right for all.

nachogrande · #**185** 06-26-2018, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

MA once wrote that the 357 sig was so powerful he killed a snake by missing the snake completely. This was an outright fabrication as the myth of sonic shock waves have been clearly proved false.

Some of the most famous gunfighters from Chicago, and NYPD were in many gunfights with revolvers. Not just one fight, but multiple.

I may have killed as many grouse with tree bark & branches than with the birdshot.

Walkingwolf · #**186** 06-26-2018, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachogrande

I may have killed as many grouse with tree bark & branches than with the birdshot.

I have killed a few just by my semi flying down the road. They just fell out of the trees as I passed by.

Cal44 · #**187** 06-26-2018, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

He was an unpaid reserve officer in Grantham, NH, population 3,000. I don’t think he’s been anywhere near a gunfight.

Probably true.

But he is able to contribute a couple things.

First, he has the communication skills to write informative articles and entice a publisher to publish them.

Most officers who may have been in a few gun fights can't do a good write-up and figure out how to get it published -- even if they wanted to (and most probably don't want to).

Second, MA has the personality and journalistic skills to conduct interviews with lots of officers and distill the info down in his stories.

I know several officers who have never been in a gun fight, or have only been in one. Their input is useful, but general conclusions drawn from a single event can be misleading.

Ziggy2525 · #**188** 06-26-2018, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal44

Probably true.

But he is able to contribute a couple things.

First, he has the communication skills to write informative articles and entice a publisher to publish them.

Most officers who may have been in a few gun fights can't do a good write-up and figure out how to get it published -- even if they wanted to (and most probably don't want to).

Second, MA has the personality and journalistic skills to conduct interviews with lots of officers and distill the info down in his stories.

I know several officers who have never been in a gun fight, or have only been in one. Their input is useful, but but general conclusions drawn from a single event can be misleading.

MA has great info. IMO, he presents himself as having learned it info from first hand experience. That doesn’t appear to be true and isn’t so good.

two-bit cowboy · #**189** 06-26-2018, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

Only vicariously . . .

I read others' tales and don't ever want the experience more than that way. The real deal is NOT on my bucket list!

I haul around a five-shot snubbie, anything from a 1952 Baby Chiefs to a 460ES, and hope never to feel a need to present any of them.

fredj338 · #**190** 06-26-2018, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigp220.45

He was an unpaid reserve officer in Grantham, NH, population 3,000. I don’t think he’s been anywhere near a gunfight.

And neither have most paid officers in larger cities???

nachogrande · #**191** 06-26-2018, 02:13 PM

EVEN MOOB.

petepeterson · #**192** 06-26-2018, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

I carry reloads out of years of habit. BUT most bad guys do not give time outs to reload.

I did some J-frame drills on Saturday. 3-5 yds, backing up to 7yds. Shooting on the move, drawing and point shooting, etc. One thing that stood out to me was, after inducing some physical exertion to get the heart-rate up, and artificially forcing myself to "panic," I still shot pretty well, but a rapid reload from a speed strip was extremely difficult.
The cardboard targets were not moving aggressively towards me, either.
I still maintain that my reload is to make sure I'm not waiting for the authorities with an empty gun. Not saying I wouldn't try my best, but I have no illusions of pulling a "miculek" after she runs dry.

Muss Muggins · #**193** 06-26-2018, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

And neither have most paid officers in larger cities???

And they're not prolific authors and paid trial experts with regard to gunfights . . .

HorizontalMike · #**194** 06-26-2018, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petepeterson

...[snip]...
...
I still maintain that my reload is to make sure I'm not waiting for the authorities with an empty gun. Not saying I wouldn't try my best, but I have no illusions of pulling a "miculek" after she runs dry.

HUH? Please do me a favor and take 5 minutes (and nothing less) to think about this response...

Please!...

Wise_A · #**195** 06-26-2018, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

MA once wrote that the 357 sig was so powerful he killed a snake by missing the snake completely. This was an outright fabrication as the myth of sonic shock waves have been clearly proved false.

Hence why I never implied I agree with everything he says. Rather, I said I agreed with the five things mentioned in the linked post. Which I feel I made pretty clear to anyone who read.

Quote:

Some of the most famous gunfighters from Chicago, and NYPD were in many gunfights with revolvers. Not just one fight, but multiple.

That's super. It's also irrelevant. First-hand knowledge of several gunfights (a la Stakeout Squad) isn't as useful as reviewing what went right and what went wrong over a large number of shootings.

In fact, one might argue that the lessons of someone who's been involved in many gunfights have less bearing on most of us. After all, we need advice on how to survive as an inexperienced fighter. To use an analogy, somebody once told me to shoot Slow Fire a particular way because "that's how Brian Zins (a guy with more national championships than anybody else) does it." My reply was that I wasn't Zins, didn't practice or train like him, and certainly couldn't shoot as well as him, so copying his techniques blindly was dumb.

adwjc · #**196** 06-26-2018, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

...

Some of the most famous gunfighters from Chicago, and NYPD were in many gunfights with revolvers. Not just one fight, but multiple.

Solely because they were required by their departmental rules to use revolvers as their primary firearm at the time.

If you research further (especially Jim Cirillo) you will see that he obeyed his rules, carrying at least two K frame .38s but carried additional weapons, including long guns, on his stakeouts.

All of which is rather far from the needs of your average, non LEO CCW.

Imissedagain · #**197** 06-26-2018, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachogrande

I may have killed as many grouse with tree bark & branches than with the birdshot.

MSgt at T1A Gunnery School, in ‘66, said more planes went down by flying thru shell cases as opposed to actually getting hit.

Imissedagain · #**198** 06-26-2018, 11:54 PM

Taking out/down 300lb attackers..... re-articulate their knees with your legs..... practice setting them up..... should be part of learning to protect your firearms..... Randori.

fredj338 · #**199** 06-27-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rastoff

Indeed, but I find it interesting that when some have an issue with a particular choice, they always come up with an even more unlikely scenario.

Case in point:
I have ridden motorcycles a lot. I prefer a full face helmet. A friend once told me, "I'll never wear a full face helmet. If you go down, and are sliding feet first under a truck, the chin bar will catch on the rear axle can break your neck." True story and he only wore half helmets. But think about it, even if what he said about the chin bar were true (which is isn't), what are the odds of a person crashing their bike and sliding feet first under a truck? So rare I'll bet it's never happened.

Has someone been attacked by a 300lb person in a public bathroom? I'm sure it's happened. The possibility is just so low for me that I don't take it into consideration. I try to think of the most likely, and realistic, situations for me and prepare for those. Then if the weird one happens, I'm at least a little ready because of my practice.

Heck, I'll just settle for a person to practice anything at all with their carry gun because most don't. If there's no practice, it really doesn't matter what you carry. You'll be equally unprepared no matter what.

I dont have an issue, jut find it funny that those who make their decisions look at the situation so benignly. 100s of 1000s of people carry no weapon, have no training & do fine, until they have that 1-2% event. So imo, if I am bothering to carry at all, I want most any situation to be covered. This includes my weapon choice & the training & practice to utilize that choice. Most ccw carry to feel good & thats fine, as noted, not likely to need it, but they ate barely better off than those that dont carry at all imo.

fredj338 · #**200** 06-27-2018, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

And they're not prolific authors and paid trial experts with regard to gunfights . . .

Surviving a single fight with your gun doesnt make you an automatic expert. I know plenty of leo that have & still seek training & practice from those that are better shooters. More skill is never a bad thing. I have shot with leo that survived their gunfight, they know it was not their gun skill but luck, hence why they are practicing in an idpa match with me.