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  #151  
Old 06-21-2018, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
Well, I think the world I live in (as a retired computer engineer) is a lot different than the situation faced by a police officer.

I don't get involved stopping crimes that don't involve me or my wife, I don't arrest bad guys.

If I see a problem I run away from it. If an officer sees a problem he runs towards it.

So I think 5 rounds can stop a mugging at an ATM (for example).

Frankly, I'm thinking the opposite from you in that I think I might need more rounds if my home is invaded by multiple bad guys.

I'm considering keeping something with 8 or more rounds on me at home. Or perhaps two J frames.
If at home, may I suggest a S&W 627PC w/8-shots. Love mine, as it is same caliber as my other handguns and has enough rounds to "almost" be a pistolero...
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  #152  
Old 06-21-2018, 04:18 PM
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Thumbs up Kimber K6S

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Originally Posted by oldsman70 View Post
I carry a Kimber K6 with a speed strip
Me Also
Just ordered one to replace my J-Frame 642. A couple of reasons:
  1. Kimber has an additional round
  2. This Kimber is Stainless Steel and not the gawd ugly discolored aluminum powder coat.
  3. Love the Kimber rounded edges, ALL of them!
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  #153  
Old 06-21-2018, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
I live a pretty low risk life. I've always figured I'd be dead if it came to the point that I needed to reload.
My risks have gone down since my wife retired .. She had worked at a bank for over 30 years and I would drop her off in the mornings sometimes and waited for her to get inside and give me our all safe symbol for that day .. She was the first one there and opened the bank up for other employees ..

If she drove herself she would call me after opening up .. There were times we were worried about copy cat Perps who might have found where we lived .. when a bank manager was kidnapped and used for the robbery else where .. I was in the habit when I dropped her off to have my Beretta PX4 ..

so my awareness has always been at a higher state of alert .. much more then most other people .. even before we have had conceal carry in Illinois ..
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  #154  
Old 06-21-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dump1567 View Post
First off, I'm not trying to offend anyone or ruffle any feathers. Everyone is free to carry whatever they wish or feel comfortable with. I worked with several cops over the years that only carried a J frame or .380 and no re-load for it.

I own 3 J frames and several other wheel guns. In fact, my house carry is a 5 shot S&W 340 in .38 spl (see below). It's light enough to wear tucked into the waistband of draw sting elastic waist shorts. I also have quick access to larger/higher capacity guns near by.

But with that said, when I go out into the world, I almost feel naked if I don't have at least 8 rounds in the gun (preferably 10 or more) & a re-load.

For those that just carry a 5 shot, why do you feel that's enough gun in today's crazy world? In most of the real life videos I've seen, 5 rounds just doesn't seem enough. Nor is there time for a reload. Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes, just trying to understand.



I used to feel the same way. My whole life I hated revolvers. **** then and autos since I was a kid, and never liked a revolver. As of about 2 years ago I started to like them a lot. It occurred to me that I've never in 36 years had to shoot anyone and I've never been robbed or assaulted and the chances of it are pretty slim. Yes it CAN happen so that's why I carry, but I feel perfectly confident with 5 and a couple speed strips. I feel it's not so much what you carry, but how you use it. If someone gets a gun on you before you get yours out, it's too late to grab your's without getting shot and if you get yours on the bad guy before they get theirs out, it's too late for them unless they want to get shot. Plenty of things CAN happen, but most likely 5 will be fine. Back up if I need them. I also believe in fate very very very strongly. I figure if 5 isn't enough and I end up dead, my time had come and regardless of HOW it happened, I'd have been dead anyway from a heart attack or whatever. If it's not my time, God will see me through the situation with what I have. Besides, I don't do much these days and I don't do dumb things like I used to so the chances of something happening are slim. Each of my 5 bullets can kill just as easily as the bad guys. I guess maybe I just don't worry about it that much. Nothing seriously bad has ever happened to me. I'm very very thankful for that, but if you believe in a higher power, whatever you call it, something has been looking out for me since the day I was born and I trust it. Many a sticky situations he got me out of so I just don't worry about it that much.
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  #155  
Old 06-21-2018, 07:37 PM
max503 max503 is offline
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I carry a j frame because it is always there. I guess an lcp would be, too. I just can't afford to be throwing money at every gun I want.

Lots of good reading in this thread.

Last edited by max503; 06-21-2018 at 07:39 PM.
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  #156  
Old 06-21-2018, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Thems a fightin words, pard.

I carry a Ruger's Blackhawk for defense and its my bedside gun. Nostalgia ain't got nothing to do with it. Sure as the day is long my trusty six gun can get er done. Don't need no more than six, if you do you can't shoot. It was enough for Earp and Hickok, it's enough for me (and YOU) too.
Now you know that both of those men had spare ammo on their belt right?
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  #157  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:04 PM
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I'm sorry I missed this before.
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Originally Posted by otis24 View Post
Recently, I read an article. I think it was by Massad Ayoob. He described how in many instances, a revolver just wasn't enough. In one situation, the assailant was so obese that six shots was not enough to stop him.
If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.
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  #158  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.

Yeah, like he made it up.
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  #159  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:24 PM
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5 Gunfighting Myths Debunked By Massad Ayoob
5 Gun-fighting Myths - Massad Ayoob | 1911Addicts -The Premiere 1911 Forum For Enthusiasts

an interesting story why you need more the 5 or 6 shoots .. and officers who survive because they had those additional bullets to fire ..
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  #160  
Old Yesterday, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm sorry I missed this before. If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.
The referenced article was apparently from an old issue of Combat Handguns... Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement
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  #161  
Old Yesterday, 12:31 AM
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Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.

Not sure what stupid videos you've been watching, but 5 rounds of .38 wadcutters will knock any man down!! Don't blame the equipment if you can't make it work.

The J-frame .38 is the best concealable fightsman's pistol extand and will remain so. The unreliable bottom-feeding autos that jam every time you look at them are NOT suitable for defense work. The J-frame WILL AND CANNOT EVER JAM under any circumstance, five rounds will ALWAYS be enough if you can shoot, and...

Oh who am I kidding, the man that packs a J-frame and no reload is better armed than most, since most aren't armed. But today with the vast array of extremely reliable and concealable semi-autos, they are severely handicapped.

Easy to get hung up in the nostalgia, but look at them as the tools they are before anything else. The J-frame is obsolete, it's just that a lot of people won't accept it.

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  #162  
Old Yesterday, 04:23 AM
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As a working LEO my backup was a J-frame .38. Now, it is my EDC. I accept the limitations, in favor of weight and concealabilaty.
Question: How many of you carry 24/7? Even at home? I do.
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  #163  
Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by trigtechr View Post
Question: How many of you carry 24/7? Even at home? I do.

The only time it's never on my person while out and about is at my Doctor/Dental visit's but within arms reach, at the P.O. or any State or Federal bldg's. it's in the car because even in their parking lot it's a risk of a felony. But I do try avoid them all when possible.

At home within arms reach even while showering.

It's become second nature for me, just part of the get-up as they say.
Making a serious commitment to carry is not a part time affair.
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  #164  
Old Yesterday, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.
I have defended using a revolver, even using a single action, but this attitude is misplaced.

From the article posted by Mister X:
Quote:
We can all sit comfortably in our armchairs, raise an eyebrow and curl our lips in a sneer, and say, "These men didn't know what they were doing! Why, my instructor or I would have killed all those goblins with a single well-placed .45 slug and would have blown them out of their socks!"

This theory works fine in the armchair. It sounds great when delivered in stentorian tones by the lawyer addressing the jury from the plaintiff's podium. It does not, however, always fly on the street.
Just because a .38Spl can stop a bad guy doesn't mean it will. Remember, you have to hit that bad guy with that tiny piece of lead. That's easy to say on the internet, but not so easy to do in practice, even at a quiet range. It's very difficult to do under the pressure of potentially being killed by a moving, angry bad guy who's got body armor or is on drugs.
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  #165  
Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
The subject was a grossly obese man with a death wish and a .357 magnum, who opened fire on the officer. In the moments that followed, Martin went through two magazines with his department issue Smith & Wesson model 59 service pistol, firing 29 shots and striking the subject 15 times in the torso and twice in the head. It was the last bullet to the head that put the gunman down as Martin's slide locked back for the second time. He reloaded his final magazine and cautiously approached to find the gunman dead.
Why does everyone think that head shots are 100% effective? News flash: if these guys didn't have thick skulls, you wouldn't need to shoot them in the first place. On a related note, carrying less ammunition doesn't magically make you a better shot.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

It was only the second head shot that stopped Gramins' attacker. I'd also point out that Gramins was a master instructor and sniper. He was probably knew a thing or two about shooting under stress.
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  #166  
Old Yesterday, 05:12 PM
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I prefer revolvers and when I can I like to carry a snubbie K frame with 6 rounds. But carrying a J-frame with 5 rounds satisfies my daily needs as far as I am concerned. I don't go to bad places, I mind my business, and I can put bullets where they need to go. When I go to places with a higher possibility of attack from haters I will switch to a 9mm with 7 rounds (CS-9) or even 12 (6906). Otherwise, I am very comfortable with my 5 rounds.

Quote:
"Never get into a fight with an old man. He can't run, and he can't fight, so he'll just kill you." Now that I'm an older guy (62), that saying describes me quite well.
The parallel that I am aware of is "Never make an old man mad; he'll kill you" but methinks that's a paraphrase of what is quoted above. AFAIK is comes from Lazarus Long, the fictional hero/space cop of a series of science fiction books of more than a half century ago by Robert Heinlein. The older I get the more I like that line.......

---------------------------------------

I researched it, just for fun - it took a while, too!

Quote:
Never frighten a little man. He'll kill you.
-- Lazarus Long, from Robert A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love"
According to that great bastion of knowledge known as the Internet that is the proper quote. My own comment above was in error - I never say "old", I always say "small". Now I see it is "little" in the original......so says the Internet..........

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  #167  
Old Yesterday, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
The parallel that I am aware of is "Never make an old man mad; he'll kill you" but methinks that's a paraphrase of what is quoted above. AFAIK is comes from Lazarus Long, the fictional hero/space cop of a series of science fiction books of more than a half century ago by Robert Heinlein. The older I get the more I like that line.......
The Lazarus Long series is one of my favorites of all time. Think I'm going to have to re-read them...

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Old Today, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Why does everyone think that head shots are 100% effective?
You're right, just a hit in the head isn't enough. It has to be in the 4"x3" zone in the center. Only there is it a guaranteed stop.
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Old Today, 08:18 AM
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Itís super easy to get caught up in the tacticool world today. I used to buy into it. I carried a Glock 19 for almost three years and the switched to a 43 and now Iím to my 642-1. I have come to realization that 5 rounds is sufficient for me. I carry an extra 5 on the belt if I need more which I doubt I ever will. People always say carry the best gun you can into a gun fight. Well if thatís true I dang sure ainít taking just a pistol Iím grabbing a long gun of sorts. Look, Iím not planning on getting in a gun fight. I am more proficient and shoot my revolvers betters than I do my autos so I carry my revolver. You can be fast with reloads and thatís something I do practice. I used to feel how you do and think I must have at least 9 rounds in the gun but such is not the case. With age comes wisdom I suppose.
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Old Today, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66 shooter View Post
Hey, as Jeff Cooper once said.....if you can't get it done with 5 rounds then you should probably re-think your situation.
Nice platitude but reality is we rarely get to choose our fight. 5rds might be fine for an unarmed thug. Two armed men, now what? You are dead man walking if they have any skill level. Today, with so many small effective semi, why carry a 5shot much less two? A g26 is about the same size & wt as a j-frame. Easier to shoot, more rds & faster reload if needed. I love revos, but if I am edc, it is not my first choice. I dont turn my nose up at those that do but silly statements like Coopers are just that in todays enviro of active shooters & armed terrorists.
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Old Today, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
You're right, just a hit in the head isn't enough. It has to be in the 4"x3" zone in the center. Only there is it a guaranteed stop.
Yeah that one always gets me. The avg shooter can NOT make a standing still head shot on demand in say a very slow 3sec from holster at a very short 15ft, 100% of the time. Now toss in target & you moving, as is 100% possible, add in some low light or darkness, pure fantasy that you are making a headshot.
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Old Today, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
Sorry, buddy, but if 5 rounds o' .38 ain't enough, you can't shoot.

Not sure what stupid videos you've been watching, but 5 rounds of .38 wadcutters will knock any man down!! Don't blame the equipment if you can't make it work.

The J-frame .38 is the best concealable fightsman's pistol extand and will remain so. The unreliable bottom-feeding autos that jam every time you look at them are NOT suitable for defense work. The J-frame WILL AND CANNOT EVER JAM under any circumstance, five rounds will ALWAYS be enough if you can shoot, and...

Oh who am I kidding, the man that packs a J-frame and no reload is better armed than most, since most aren't armed. But today with the vast array of extremely reliable and concealable semi-autos, they are severely handicapped.

Easy to get hung up in the nostalgia, but look at them as the tools they are before anything else. The J-frame is obsolete, it's just that a lot of people won't accept it.
Sorry buddy, totally misplaced reality. As previously noted, unarmed thug, yep you are ahead with a 5shot. Two armed attackers, you are likely dead man walking. Not all fights will be at 21ft or less. Mot all fights will be one v one. With todays subcompact 9, little reason to be less armed imo, but I do not denigrate those people making their choices, just pointing out its a bit misguided.
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Old Today, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
I'm sorry I missed this before. If it was indeed Massad Ayoob who said this, then I've lost a bit of respect for his methods.

First, a man who's so fat that six shots won't stop him? Yes, I could see a person being so fat that a bullet will not penetrate to a vital organ. However, if the initial controlled pair didn't stop him, why on God's green earth would you continue to shoot to the same place? At that point it's time to take that head shot. No one is so fat that a properly placed head shot won't stop them. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit the head.

Secondly, if a person is this fat, how hard can it be to get away? I mean, I'm no runner, but I'm pretty sure I can out walk a guy this large.

No, I think that a revolver is a reasonable defensive tool. There has to be more to this story.
Vitals on all adults are about the same size. A 300# guy though has a lot more non vital area than a 150# guy. Why people continue shooting com is they trained that way & likely arent good enough to make a transition to the head in the high speed/stress of a fight. Unless you are shooting & training & visualizing for any fight, you are liley to make such a mental mistake. Without the skill set to hit a tiny target like a moving head, you will continue to pound away com until out of ammo, bad guy wins. Why a 5 shot today, kinda pointless.?
Btw, you run away from any encounter if possible. Can you run from the fat guy with a knife in a public bathroom? There are always situations you will have no choice but to fight, so handicapping yourself for convenience seems a poor trade off, but that is just me. Its the 21st century with 21st century criminals. I'm 62 but I can adapt.
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Old Today, 01:06 PM
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I have a slightly different take on this.

If you are going to carry a small revolver, then I think it's worthwhile to load it with the most effective round you can.

That's a 357 Magnum in most cases.

Sure it takes more time to learn to shoot the 357 Mag out of a small gun, but then if you score a good hit, one or two may end the fight.

I also like 327 Federal -- if you use the high end rounds like the 100 or 115 gr Gold Dots.

Those are up there with 357 Mag in muzzle energy and are as high or higher in velocity.

Takes practice to shoot these rounds well as the recoil is also up there with the 357.

Last edited by Cal44; Today at 01:08 PM.
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  #175  
Old Today, 02:49 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
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An altercation with a 300lb man armed with a blade in a bathroom will almost assuredly involve contact being made. If you think you can hold a #2 just because you took a Craig Douglas class, have done some force-on-force training and routinely practice rention shooting at the range, good luck with that.

I'm not much of a huge fan of .357 magnum out of a lightweight snub. I've seen way too many incidents of crimp jump to dismiss it, plus there's the controllability factor and to a lesser degrees, failures in one form or another. Most civilian defense scenarios take place inside 3 yards. One handed shooting is the norm at such distances and justifiably so since mobility and using the off hand for protection are often required and I don't see the relatively slight ballistic advantage the magnum offers worth the trade-offs and risks.
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Old Today, 03:09 PM
Cal44 Cal44 is online now
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I'm not much of a huge fan of .357 magnum out of a lightweight snub. I've seen way too many incidents of crimp jump to dismiss it, plus there's the controllability factor and to a lesser degrees, failures in one form or another. .
IMHO, the best pocket revolver for shooting 357 Magnum is the LCR 357.

At 17oz, shooting 357 Magnum is doable. I shot mine a lot.

Haven't had a crimp jump problem with the LCR.

In the Smith product line, I'd go for either a M60 snub or an M640.

Haven't tried an M&P 340, but that may be a bit too light. And no way do I want to try a 340PD.

Last edited by Cal44; Today at 03:18 PM.
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Old Today, 03:09 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is online now
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
An altercation with a 300lb man armed with a blade in a bathroom will almost assuredly involve contact being made. If you think you can hold a #2 just because you took a Craig Douglas class, have done some force-on-force training and routinely practice rention shooting at the range, good luck with that.

I'm not much of a huge fan of .357 magnum out of a lightweight snub. I've seen way too many incidents of crimp jump to dismiss it, plus there's the controllability factor and to a lesser degrees, failures in one form or another. Most civilian defense scenarios take place inside 3 yards. One handed shooting is the norm at such distances and justifiably so since mobility and using the off hand for protection are often required and I don't see the relatively slight ballistic advantage the magnum offers worth the trade-offs and risks.
I agree with your position on j-frames being enough ó IF ó the risk your protecting against is being the target of an opportunistic predator. You just happen to cross paths with an ambush predator(s) and he/they think you will be an easy mark. They arenít looking to get shot. I think pocket .380ís work in that scenario also.

If your life circumstances put you at a higher threat level, say from a determined, vengeful ex-husband or an ex-con you put in prison, Iíd want more than five. Thatís how I look at it anyway.
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