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  #151  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:23 AM
Retired Cop Retired Cop is offline
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As a leftie I generally stay away from 1911 style guns, especially the tiny pocket style. I know I’ll catch it for this but the 1911 style makes me nervous, mostly b/c I don’t have much time behind the trigger since my service in Viet Nam. My only ND was with a 1911, totally my fault, but it was enough. Pls. understand I’m not dissing others for carrying one, it’s just not for me.
The 1911 was the worst handgun ever designed in my opinion. That's why it never made it into law enforcement successfully!

In Nam the lefties carried them on half cock and could not use the thumb safety so they relied on the grip safety, which didn't work on them Remington Rand WWII worn out rust magnet junkers that were issued to us. You would be surprised how many of us got a hold of a Russian Mak or a Chinese TA33 and used them!

By the way, Vietnam is one word only!!!!
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  #152  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:38 AM
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The 1911 was the worst handgun ever designed in my opinion. That's why it never made it into law enforcement successfully!

In Nam the lefties carried them on half cock and could not use the thumb safety so they relied on the grip safety, which didn't work on them Remington Rand WWII worn out rust magnet junkers that were issued to us. You would be surprised how many of us got a hold of a Russian Mak or a Chinese TA33 and used them!

By the way, Vietnam is one word only!!!!
Can't tell if trolling. No, really.

Because the 1911 has been issued in various formats for about 100 years. Special units (LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT) have carried them, in addition to all the departments that either issue them or approve 1911-pattern pistols for duty. And I suppose we could also count all the departments with a double-action requirement that authorized the (brilliant) Para LDA.

Side note: Remington buys Para, refuses to resurrect the LDA, and is then struck down by bankruptcy. Coincidence? I think not.

Oh, and there was this little cartridge called the Super .38 (later known as the .38 Super). The FBI bought 1911s in Super .38 to issue to agents, as the cartridge was capable of penetrating the heavy car doors of the day, useful in gunfights with bank robbers. Of note, the Mexican Policia Federales were also exceptionally fond of the Super .38 1911, especially nickeled.

Oh, and this little bunch of guys called the Texas Rangers. One of whom was this guy named Manuel Trazazas Gonzaullas, who used to shave the front of the trigger guard clean off, a la the old Fitz Special. I'd make fun, but the dude's nickname was "Lone Wolf", so ah...no thanks.

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“He was sent out to Pecos one time to stop a riot out there," added Wise. “When he got off the train there was a great posse waiting to greet him, and when they saw he was alone, they said, ‘Where’s all your help Mr. Gonzaullas?’ and he said, ‘There’s only one riot isn’t there?’”
But hey, I'm just a plastic-pistol-shootin' millenial. The hell do I know?
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  #153  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:57 AM
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How did I loose you???? I have seen dead people as a result of a .32 ACP and a .380 ACP, lock breech pistols, both designed by Browning, in my career in law enforcement.

J Edger Hoover carried a .32 caliber pistol. Our military are issued a .22 caliber rifle. The 5.56 NATO round is .22 caliber. Bullet size is irreverent. Where you put it is the most important factor! The next is bullet speed!
Like the previous post mentioned, not sure if you’re having a slow day or trolling, but I’ll play. What does the number of dead people you’ve seen have to do with the comparative reliability and QA issues of .380 locked breech pistols compared to larger caliber versions?

Same for your J. Edgar Hoover comment. Did he use a .32 locked breech pistol? Was he ever even in a shootout? Did he ever even fire it? Not even sure where you’re going with the 5.56 comment.

That’s how you lost me.
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  #154  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:33 AM
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The 1911 was the worst handgun ever designed in my opinion. That's why it never made it into law enforcement successfully!

In Nam the lefties carried them on half cock and could not use the thumb safety so they relied on the grip safety, which didn't work on them Remington Rand WWII worn out rust magnet junkers that were issued to us. You would be surprised how many of us got a hold of a Russian Mak or a Chinese TA33 and used them!

By the way, Vietnam is one word only!!!!
This thread has wandered from the .380. But re; your desire to find a Tok. in Vietnam; now there, IMO, is one of the top 5 battle pistols ever designed. I own several.
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  #155  
Old 07-21-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
The 1911 was the worst handgun ever designed in my opinion. That's why it never made it into law enforcement successfully!

In Nam the lefties carried them on half cock and could not use the thumb safety so they relied on the grip safety, which didn't work on them Remington Rand WWII worn out rust magnet junkers that were issued to us. You would be surprised how many of us got a hold of a Russian Mak or a Chinese TA33 and used them!

By the way, Vietnam is one word only!!!!
As a leftie in Nam (hope this spelling meets w/your approval) I was instructed to carry the 1911 in Condition 3.
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  #156  
Old 07-21-2018, 04:43 PM
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For 16 of my 20 years in the Army, I heard people whining about the M1911A1, regardless of manufacturers, usually as a cover for their inability to shoot one accurately. Considering that the Army didn’t buy any M1911A1s after 1945, the .45s remained in remarkably good condition. I was pissed when I was forced to turn in mine in order to be issued that remarkable *** known as the M9.


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  #157  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:05 PM
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My experience is polymer semi auto 380's are not reliable. Just my opinion .... not a "plastic" hater as I really like my LCR.

However, for a reliable 380 try a PPK or PP.
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  #158  
Old 07-21-2018, 05:22 PM
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My experience is polymer semi auto 380's are not reliable. Just my opinion .... not a "plastic" hater as I really like my LCR.

However, for a reliable 380 try a PPK or PP.
I am beginning to believe there is a diminishing return as the size of these .380 pistols decreases.
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  #159  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:55 PM
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This thread renewed my 380 interest. Today I dusted off the trusty Walther PP and PPK (each over 50 years old).

Each successfullly digested 100 rounds of 95 grain Remington. Yep ... the metal frame 380s are still the way to go.

Pains me as a Ruger guy to admit ...... I sold my LCP a few years ago. Never could get it to be reliable. Just couldn't trust it for carry.
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  #160  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
The 1911 was the worst handgun ever designed in my opinion. That's why it never made it into law enforcement successfully!

In Nam the lefties carried them on half cock and could not use the thumb safety so they relied on the grip safety, which didn't work on them Remington Rand WWII worn out rust magnet junkers that were issued to us. You would be surprised how many of us got a hold of a Russian Mak or a Chinese TA33 and used them!

By the way, Vietnam is one word only!!!!
Well millions of 1911 owners over the years would totally disagree. Few designs are still produced & carried today. Worst design ever, uh not even a close 10th.
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  #161  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:01 AM
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Have any of you read the news or see the video of the latest Florida "STAND YOUR GROUND SHOOTING"

ref: Florida stand your ground shooting - Bing video

Kel Tec P3AT, one shot to the lower torso, he walks away but didn't get far and died! You will also notice all of his aggression stops the moment he gets hit with the round!

I don't troll, I just give out indisputable facts!
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  #162  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:27 AM
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Well millions of 1911 owners over the years would totally disagree. Few designs are still produced & carried today. Worst design ever, uh not even a close 10th.
There are more Glocks in service today than any 1911 style pistol ever produced in total since 1911.

Admittedly, the 1911 has a cult following to which I say, ok! It is still military scrapped junk!

The Glock has 37 parts total that never need replacing, the 1911 **** design has over 55 parts, depending on model, of which 37 need to be constantly replaced to keep them running!

Brownells loves 1911 owners and you guys put a great many of the owners kids through college over the years since Colt almost went bankrupt and started the Gold Cup Line! You guys fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Did you know Remington Typewriter Company made the majority of the 1911A1 junk for WWII? Their subsidiary company the Sunbeam Electric Shaver Company made the magazine for them also. When they issued them to us in Vietnam, we were told "to shake it before you take it" to make sure it rattled or it might blow up in your hand!
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  #163  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:38 PM
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I don't troll, I just give out indisputable facts!
Yeah, sure, if you say so... LOL.
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...the 1911 **** design has over 55 parts, depending on model, of which 37 need to be constantly replaced to keep them running!
If all you are doing is stating "indisputable facts" please list all 37 of these parts that "need to be constantly replaced" - and give your working definition of how often "constantly" would be.

I'm no 1911 fanboy, though I have a couple. I've never seen any other references to the 1911 requiring anywhere near the level of maintenance you're describing.

I'm no Glock fanboy either, but your statements make it obvious that you are, and seem pretty hyperbolic for someone who claims not to be trolling.

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  #164  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:02 PM
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I’ve tried all the newest innovative gun designs, and have always fallen back on a .38+P or .357 j frame and my 90’s 9mm or .40 DA/SA auto pistols. Because they do the job best. Period.

PS I’m in my mid thirties and many of these guns I have carried came out before I was old enough to own one. So I’m not biased in any way


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  #165  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:06 PM
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I don't troll, I just give out indisputable facts!
Indisputable facts like "the 1911 never made it into law enforcement".
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  #166  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:14 PM
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The Glock has 37 parts total that never need replacing, . . .
I like Glock, and I like 1911 style pistol. I can categorically state that the above statement is untrue. I have been witness to hundreds of thousands of rounds fired from Glock pistols. The following parts have a tendency to fail: Slide lock spring, slide stop spring, and the recoil spring assembly. The slide lock spring failure is especially catastrophic, as it cause the slide lock to float about. Should it disengage itself totally from the frame, the entire slide assembly moves forward, falling off the frame and hitting the deck, usually with a round in the chamber. I have also seen more than one frame rail break.

Everything can fail, given enough time or use . . .
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  #167  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:23 PM
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...
The slide lock spring failure is especially catastrophic, as it cause the slide lock to float about. Should it disengage itself totally from the frame, the entire slide assembly moves forward, falling off the frame and hitting the deck...
...
Saw this happen to a guy at the range one time. Amazing how far a slide can fly. The guy was standing there looking dumbfounded at the frame in his hand with no slide.
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  #168  
Old 07-23-2018, 03:25 PM
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I like how here and pretty much any other forum, folks who have shot both modern .380 micro pistols and more classic .380 pistols like the Walther PP Series will admit that while they're obviously heavier they tend to be more accurate/reliable, yet if you go to the Walther Forums everyone there acts like they obsolete and less reliable than say a Ruger LCP.
Ah, but then again, while you would expect the users of a forum dedicated to a particular brand of firearms to be fans of said brand, folks on the Walther Forums seem to hate most of Walther's products.
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  #169  
Old 07-23-2018, 03:29 PM
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Good thing this fellow is retired! His meds are no longer working.

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There are more Glocks in service today than any 1911 style pistol ever produced in total since 1911.

Admittedly, the 1911 has a cult following to which I say, ok! It is still military scrapped junk!

The Glock has 37 parts total that never need replacing, the 1911 **** design has over 55 parts, depending on model, of which 37 need to be constantly replaced to keep them running!

Brownells loves 1911 owners and you guys put a great many of the owners kids through college over the years since Colt almost went bankrupt and started the Gold Cup Line! You guys fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Did you know Remington Typewriter Company made the majority of the 1911A1 junk for WWII? Their subsidiary company the Sunbeam Electric Shaver Company made the magazine for them also. When they issued them to us in Vietnam, we were told "to shake it before you take it" to make sure it rattled or it might blow up in your hand!
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  #170  
Old 07-23-2018, 04:13 PM
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There are more Glocks in service today than any 1911 style pistol ever produced in total since 1911.

Admittedly, the 1911 has a cult following to which I say, ok! It is still military scrapped junk!

The Glock has 37 parts total that never need replacing, the 1911 **** design has over 55 parts, depending on model, of which 37 need to be constantly replaced to keep them running!

Brownells loves 1911 owners and you guys put a great many of the owners kids through college over the years since Colt almost went bankrupt and started the Gold Cup Line! You guys fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Did you know Remington Typewriter Company made the majority of the 1911A1 junk for WWII? Their subsidiary company the Sunbeam Electric Shaver Company made the magazine for them also. When they issued them to us in Vietnam, we were told "to shake it before you take it" to make sure it rattled or it might blow up in your hand!
Not so sure I'd be so definitive in such a declaration.

I'd expect Glock to have made another million or more pistols since my last armorer recert, but the production numbers offered the last time someone from Glock was discussing such numbers was something like 14 million, and that was said to have been all of them ever produced, worldwide. Probably more than 14 million 1911-style pistols in circulation.

As far as Glock parts never needing to be replaced? Then why do Glock armorers have to keep restocking their armorer kits? I've had to order my fair share of repair parts from the company, occasionally an aftermarket vendor (if I don't want to wait for slow factory orders), and repeatedly talk the area LE rep and Glock armorer instructors out of any number of "onesies" & "twosies" of assorted parts and assemblies over the years, in order to keep both my own Glocks, and those of the owners I support as an armorer, in normal operating condition.

Now, as an owner, shooter and Colt armorer I acknowledge that 1911's generally require a bit more attention and knowledge on the part of shooters and armorers in order to keep them running, but many 1911 "problems" are also caused by people making modifications and "improvements" to them, and the quality and tolerances of different magazines comes into play when it comes to feeding and functioning of 1911's, too.

I've handled and fired my fair share of WWI & WWI production 1911's, and they were typical of wartime firearms production methods, no matter who was contracted to manufacture them. Use & abuse during wartime didn't help, either.

While it seems like everybody and their brother have been making 1911's, and the modern specs and tolerances are a bit "variable", for both the guns and the assorted parts and assemblies, there are a lot of newer production 1911's that are pretty damned good.

Sure, as an owner, issued user and armorer I'd rather support many of the plastic pistols, and even some of the more modern traditional double action service pistols, than some 1911's, but that doesn't take away from the 1911. Many of the newer guns just require a bit less in the way of maintenance and support, and may a bit more tolerant of common owner/user level "maintenance practices" (meaning abuse).
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  #171  
Old 07-23-2018, 04:35 PM
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For 13 years I carried a Bersa Thunder.380 everyday at the shop. After retiring 5 years ago, I switched to an LCP for CC. The former served me well and the latter continues to do so.

The winner in this thread is whatever gun you have chosen to carry.

Now, back to the Mayo/MW thread for some real sabre rattling.
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  #172  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:14 PM
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I’ve carried a J frame for almost 50 years but when the little .380s came out I was intrigued. Started w/Ruger, then S&W, Glock and Ruger LCP again. Recently I posted that the mag had popped out of my LCP a couple of times but I changed pocket holsters and tried again. Mag popped out the other day and that was it. Every .380 has had some sort of reliability issue and that’s a no go for anything carried for self defense. It’s a shame b/c I shoot the little LCP very well and actually like practicing w/it. Same w/the Smith M&P Bodyguard but light strikes, after two years of solid performance, did that one in.

I pulled the no lock 340PD out of the safe and went to the range to reacquaint myself w/it. Still shoots great w/standard pressure as well as +P, so my LCP has a permanent place in the gun safe (until I decide what to do w/it) and the 340 is back in my pocket. It could be the little auto loader is not for me but either way I’m done for good.

Thanks for indulging me, rant over.
Do a search on the Sig P238 and the only reliability issue I found was the grip screws would back out . A issue cured with a drop of Loctite !!

1. Easy to rack .. If not the easiest ..
2. 6+1 or 7+1 mag .. full hand purchase on 7 round mag
3. Accuracy out to 15 yards under 8 to 10 inches
4. Accuracy at 7 yards under 2-3 inches
5. Big gun sights not the usual poor sights on most 38's
6. 22 different models to choose ..
7. Trigger 7.5 to 8.5 (mine is 8.1) very good .. No slack and very smooth with a loud click at reset ..
8. Safety .. HD left side only .. rest are ambidextrous .., On frame safety easily moved to fire from safe in downward sweep of your thumb ..
9. Easy to conceal about everywhere ..
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  #173  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Do a search on the Sig P238 and the only reliability issue I found was the grip screws would back out . A issue cured with a drop of Loctite !!

1. Easy to rack .. If not the easiest ..
2. 6+1 or 7+1 mag .. full hand purchase on 7 round mag
3. Accuracy out to 15 yards under 8 to 10 inches
4. Accuracy at 7 yards under 2-3 inches
5. Big gun sights not the usual poor sights on most 38's
6. 22 different models to choose ..
7. Trigger 7.5 to 8.5 (mine is 8.1) very good .. No slack and very smooth with a loud click at reset ..
8. Safety .. HD left side only .. rest are ambidextrous .., On frame safety easily moved to fire from safe in downward sweep of your thumb ..
9. Easy to conceal about everywhere ..
I don't have my P238 HD in hand yet as California requires a 10 day wait.

But I rented one (the alloy fame version) and tried it at the range.

Everything said above was correct.

It grouped well at 7 yards right from the first magazine.

I shot it better with the 7 round extended magazine, but for me getting my pinky finger on the grip makes any gun more accurate in my hands.

The trigger probably was in the range of pull weight listed above.

Far from a hair trigger. Smooth with reasonable force required to shoot.

That gave me a good feeling about safe carry of the single action only gun.

Even if you forgot to lock the slide safety, or it somehow got turned off, a ND would be very unlikely with a good holster.

Last edited by Cal44; 07-23-2018 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:25 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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Since when did the .380 ACP become a "marginal" caliber anyway. The .380 is carried by lots of police worldwide, has essentially the same energy as a 135 gr. load out of a snubby revolver, yet is poo-poo'ed by so many people as being insufficient by many. WTH?
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:33 PM
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Since when did the .380 ACP become a "marginal" caliber anyway. The .380 is carried by lots of police worldwide, has essentially the same energy as a 135 gr. load out of a snubby revolver, yet is poo-poo'ed by so many people as being insufficient by many. WTH?
Since I decided to buy one, I've looked at and read just about every gelatin test and 380 ammo report on the Web.

One problem is that most ammo tested either expanded nicely, but didn't penetrate as much as one might like.

Or penetrated fine, but didn't expand.

I said MOST though.

Critical Defense and Hydra Shok did pretty well.

But the loads with the Hornady 90 grain XTP bullet did the best.

Modest expansion, and good penetration (but not over penetration).

I bought a couple boxes of the Hornady American Gunner XTP loads to try out and potentially carry if they work OK.

There are other loads using the same bullet and they also seem to perform about the same.

American Gunner ammo is even reasonably priced.

The 380 is a great round, but you need to choose your loads carefully.

Last edited by Cal44; 07-23-2018 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:46 PM
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I carry Critical Defense in mine .. and found thru the video
testing I've watched and My self personally shooting filled
water jugs to see expansion .. Those came out as one of
the best for short barrels 38's ..

Also Forgot to add in previous post #172 .. That I haven't had a failure in over 600 rounds and it has shot everything put in it .. Many small 38's are more finicky with ammo !!
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:53 PM
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Since when did the .380 ACP become a "marginal" caliber anyway. The .380 is carried by lots of police worldwide, has essentially the same energy as a 135 gr. load out of a snubby revolver, yet is poo-poo'ed by so many people as being insufficient by many. WTH?
Not sure that I would call it marginal .. but there are other rounds now that would be considered better by many ..

Police Forces tend to want new up to date equipment .. They need to stay the steps ahead of the Perps !!
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
For 13 years I carried a Bersa Thunder.380 everyday at the shop. After retiring 5 years ago, I switched to an LCP for CC. The former served me well and the latter continues to do so.

The winner in this thread is whatever gun you have chosen to carry.

Now, back to the Mayo/MW thread for some real sabre rattling.
I saw the Bursa Firestorm 380 at a couple LGS around here recently.

A real bargain if they shoot well.

Looked like a good medium sized gun. You could probably carry it with cargo pants, but it would be more at home in some kind of belt holster.

Not sure what the difference is between a Thunder and a Firestorm. They look about the same. Sort of like a Walther.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:55 PM
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Cal44, this the Thunder vs the LCP:

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Old 07-23-2018, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
The new S&W .380 EZ goes a long way in solving gun handling problems, especially for people who have difficulty retracting a slide. Yet, in you tube reviews, the reviewer had difficulty feeding and chambering the last round from the magazine. It appears to be a magazine issue but I'm surprised that S&W did not detect this weakness when testing the gun prior to release. In making the magazine easier to load, it appears that there is insufficient spring pressure to control the last round for proper feeding.
My wife falls into the target audience for the EZ. She loves it, we haven’t had it too long but I don’t remember a single malfunction. Of course it’s about the same size as a Shield 9mm, not exactly a pocket gun.

I think Smith has a winner with the EZ, the drawback is that the grip safety makes it a mugly other.
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Do a search on the Sig P238 and the only reliability issue I found was the grip screws would back out . A issue cured with a drop of Loctite !!

1. Easy to rack .. If not the easiest ..
2. 6+1 or 7+1 mag .. full hand purchase on 7 round mag
3. Accuracy out to 15 yards under 8 to 10 inches
4. Accuracy at 7 yards under 2-3 inches
5. Big gun sights not the usual poor sights on most 38's
6. 22 different models to choose ..
7. Trigger 7.5 to 8.5 (mine is 8.1) very good .. No slack and very smooth with a loud click at reset ..
8. Safety .. HD left side only .. rest are ambidextrous .., On frame safety easily moved to fire from safe in downward sweep of your thumb ..
9. Easy to conceal about everywhere ..
Thanks for the info, I have researched this model but just don’t care for 1911 style pistols, especially for pocket carry. My only ND was with a 1911, my fault all the way and I have not owned one since. Some carry their 1911 Condition 3 but my LEO street time taught me this is unwise.
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by squidsix View Post
Seriously, give these things a try. $200 each for this pair. Light, comfortable, reliable, accurate, inexpensive.
Local gunshop had a fire sale and I picked up a Bersa 380, looked like a mini Glock, BP380 maybe? I was hoping my wife would like it, she loved shooting but couldn’t rack slide no matter how hard she tried. The thing shot like a laser for me, but it was intended for her and I sent it down the road to try soemething else.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
Since when did the .380 ACP become a "marginal" caliber anyway. The .380 is carried by lots of police worldwide, has essentially the same energy as a 135 gr. load out of a snubby revolver, yet is poo-poo'ed by so many people as being insufficient by many. WTH?
Right around the same time that .38 Special because a "marginal" self-defense cartridge, that being the aftermath of the extraordinary circumstances surrounding the infamous Miami Shootout of 1986.

The FBI somehow interpreted that the number of non-critical hits from .38 Special, 9mm Luger, and even .357 Magnum sustained by the perpetrators of the 1986 Miami Shootout indicated that none of the above were adequate man-stoppers, which in turn lead to their brief adoption of the 10mm Auto cartridge and the subsequent invention of the .40 S&W cartridge.

Of course, nowadays the FBI is carrying firearms chambered in 9mm Luger, the .40 S&W cartridge has fallen out of favor with everyone from Law Enforcement to civilians, and it has been widely accepted that the Miami Shootout went on as long as it did because the perpetrators had military training which enabled them to withstand the pain of being shot many times each as well as the fact that none of the shots they sustained until the very end hit any vital organs, yet somehow .38 Special is still considered to be a marginal self-defense cartridge.

In similar fashion, the .380 ACP is also considered to be marginal both by proxy to the ballistically smiliar .38 Special, but also because for a few decades the .380 ACP was downloaded domestically for the sake of all the cheaply made .380 pistols of the time which were made of potmetal. Meanwhile European .380 ACP ammo was loaded much hotter since their pistols were typically of much higher quality than the Ring of Fire/Saturday Night Specials in the States. Nowadays domestic .380 ACP ammo isn't downloaded, nor has it been since all the Ring of Fire companies got sued into oblivion for their dangerously weak firearms, in fact it is being loaded hotter than ever before since modern .380 ACP pistols are built of the tilting barrel/locking breach action, but much like the .38 Special, folks are still basing their opinions of the cartridge on outdated/inaccurate information.

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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I saw the Bursa Firestorm 380 at a couple LGS around here recently.

A real bargain if they shoot well.

Looked like a good medium sized gun. You could probably carry it with cargo pants, but it would be more at home in some kind of belt holster.

Not sure what the difference is between a Thunder and a Firestorm. They look about the same. Sort of like a Walther.
The Bersa Firestorm is a variant of the Thunder 380 which was previously imported by a different company than the Thunder 380 and therefore has a different name as well as some subtle differences which are mostly cosmetic.

The only differences between the Firestorm and the Thunder 380 are the trigger guards, grips, and rear sights. The Firestorm has a round trigger guard whereas the Thunder 380 has a curved finger guard like a Beretta 92FS, the Firestorm has wraparound rubber grips with finger groves whereas the Thunder 380 has plastic grip pannels, and the Firestorm has the Glock-style "goalpost" rear sight whereas the Thunder 380 has the more conventional 2 dot rear sight.
Heck, the only reason why the Firestorm is still on the market when the Thunder 380 is more popular/profitable is because the Firestorm is on California's approved list of firearms whereas the Thunder 380 is not because it was never submitted for approval like the Firestorm was in years past when it was imported by a different company.

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Old 07-24-2018, 07:44 AM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
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Originally Posted by WPWarhawk View Post
Local gunshop had a fire sale and I picked up a Bersa 380, looked like a mini Glock, BP380 maybe? I was hoping my wife would like it, she loved shooting but couldn’t rack slide no matter how hard she tried. The thing shot like a laser for me, but it was intended for her and I sent it down the road to try soemething else.
Remington RM380 might be your ticket if you want to stay in the itsy-bitsy size class. Trigger is surprisingly good, and quite easy to rack. Recoil isn't terribly difficult to manage, either.
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:02 AM
blasterp7 blasterp7 is offline
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Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
It's not helping your scenario, but when my husband and an LGS employee were determined that I should give semi-autos a chance, they sold me on a SIG P238, mainly because it was the only thing I could rack. That was in Oct. 2014. Since then, a half dozen novice shooters and myself have put about 2000 flawless rounds through it. It gets carried when it's small size is required.
I have to +1 the Sig 238. It has been in my front pocket in a PCH blackbird for the last 10 years, every single day. I would not trade it for the world. fun to shoot, BIG - easy to use sights, reliable 1911 system, every one likes to shoot it and everyone likes it. Most that have shot it - have also purchased one!
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Old 07-24-2018, 08:10 AM
charles_the_hammer charles_the_hammer is offline
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Never owned a .380 but I have been considering one of those Beretta 85F Euro police trade-ins that RGuns imported a while back that are in really nice shape and can be had for as low as $350.
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Old 07-26-2018, 12:33 PM
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The .380 is a limited round in many parts of the world whereas that it is the largest and most powerful round permitted and many European and South American police departments carry them everyday. Glock makes the model 25 for European consumption and I believe is is even a blow back like the Walthers. Don't sell the .380 short. The S&W Bodyguard .380 is the best conceal carried handgun ever designed and made and my opinion is shared with many people. Take a look:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C&&FORM=VRDGAR
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Old 07-26-2018, 04:08 PM
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The .380 is a limited round in many parts of the world whereas that it is the largest and most powerful round permitted and many European and South American police departments carry them everyday. Glock makes the model 25 for European consumption and I believe is is even a blow back like the Walthers. Don't sell the .380 short. The S&W Bodyguard .380 is the best conceal carried handgun ever designed and made and my opinion is shared with many people. Take a look:

Jerry Musilik bodyguard 380 - Bing video
European and South American bad guys a mushier than North American bad guys, everyone knows that.
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Old 07-26-2018, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by WPWarhawk View Post
Local gunshop had a fire sale and I picked up a Bersa 380, looked like a mini Glock, BP380 maybe? I was hoping my wife would like it, she loved shooting but couldn’t rack slide no matter how hard she tried. The thing shot like a laser for me, but it was intended for her and I sent it down the road to try soemething else.
The BP380 looks like a locked breech design but is actually a blowback type. That's why you wife could not rack it.

We have four different models of .380 locked breech pistol in our house, and thus far they have been 100% reliable. I have no clue what the unreliable gang are doing wrong.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:12 PM
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I have no clue what the unreliable gang are doing wrong.
You just need me standing next to you as you fire. So far, I'm 100% on people telling me their .380Auto guns have been perfect, but when I'm at the range with them they've ALL failed. Clearly it's me.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:17 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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I’ve carried a J frame for almost 50 years but when the little .380s came out I was intrigued. Started w/Ruger, then S&W, Glock and Ruger LCP again. Recently I posted that the mag had popped out of my LCP a couple of times but I changed pocket holsters and tried again. Mag popped out the other day and that was it. Every .380 has had some sort of reliability issue and that’s a no go for anything carried for self defense. It’s a shame b/c I shoot the little LCP very well and actually like practicing w/it. Same w/the Smith M&P Bodyguard but light strikes, after two years of solid performance, did that one in.

I pulled the no lock 340PD out of the safe and went to the range to reacquaint myself w/it. Still shoots great w/standard pressure as well as +P, so my LCP has a permanent place in the gun safe (until I decide what to do w/it) and the 340 is back in my pocket. It could be the little auto loader is not for me but either way I’m done for good.

Thanks for indulging me, rant over.
I think it is important that each person use what is comfortable for them. Your choice was my choice before the Glock 43 (I just could not go "down" from a 38 Special to a .380 ACP). I have not had the magazine issues you mention, but I recall one friend who had those issues simply ground down the mag release button - no more problem, and he reasoned that a reload is for overly optimistic folks.

Anyway, you cannot go wrong with a good J frame. My choice is the no-lock 642 when I am not using the "pocket 9" Glock 43.
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:00 AM
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European and South American bad guys a mushier than North American bad guys, everyone knows that.
What about that!
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:31 AM
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You just need me standing next to you as you fire. So far, I'm 100% on people telling me their .380Auto guns have been perfect, but when I'm at the range with them they've ALL failed. Clearly it's me.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I could play fill-in-the-blank with virtually any cartridge and manufacturer, and come up with a true statement.

My personal theory is that there's just not a lot of forgiveness to .380s. A bit like match .22s--they're not going to put up with things a larger cartridge might.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:58 AM
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I'm not disagreeing with you, but I could play fill-in-the-blank with virtually any cartridge and manufacturer, and come up with a true statement.
Yeah, but at least with other calibers I've seen guns run without malfunctions. I have yet to see a .380Auto run without a malfunction.

It seems like plenty here aren't having any issues. Seriously, I would love to witness it.
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:36 PM
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I retired in ‘97 about the time the .380 craze began, albeit slowly. A lot of working cops pressured the police chief to allow them for off-duty & back up but our range officer was dead set against it b/c they were all so ammo sensitive. The chief green lighted them but everyone had to qualify w/any off duty/back up weapon and many of them malfunctioned on our range. Some were operator error while others were weapon design problems.
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:45 PM
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You just need me standing next to you as you fire. So far, I'm 100% on people telling me their .380Auto guns have been perfect, but when I'm at the range with them they've ALL failed. Clearly it's me.
Lololol. I am reminded of an Eddie Cheever quote during his time in F1 when reliability wasn't the best.

"Yeah, I'm really hard on the electrics".
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:44 PM
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Yes .380 will go through a car door! Some other interesting facts about the .380.

.380 on car windshield penitration - Bing video

.380 on car windshield penitration - Bing video
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
Yes .380 will go through a car door! Some other interesting facts about the .380.

.380 on car windshield penitration - Bing video

.380 on car windshield penitration - Bing video
I’ve seen those videos and the .380 is impressive using ball ammo against hard targets.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:55 PM
Retired Cop Retired Cop is offline
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I’ve seen those videos and the .380 is impressive using ball ammo against hard targets.
Yup! A .380 100 grain piece of lead flying at 1,000 will go though people too! I have seen it happen several times.

The .380 is a 9 mm round! In fact the .38, 38 special, 357, 9x17 mm corto (.380ACP designed by John Moses Browning), the 9x19 Luger, 38 super and 9x25 mm will all make the same size hole in you which is .355 Makarov is .365 so their ammo could not be shot in the .355 NATO standards.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:01 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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Look up the kinetic energy of a 100 gr. .380 ACP and a 135 gr. Speer Gold Dot load and you will find they are basically equal. Thus, why folks dis the .380 when comparing it to the .38 Special in a snubby confuddles me.
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