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  #51  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:19 AM
Chief Wiggums Chief Wiggums is offline
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document everything.
video that dogs aggressive behavior
speak to LE , document it & show the video
speak to animal control , document it & show the video
speaking to the neighbor , document it & show the video

If you are indeed forced to shoot the dog, be prepared w legal representation
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  #52  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:16 PM
Arizona Ghost Arizona Ghost is offline
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No calls to the police, no paper trail. Suppressed .22LR, then bury it somewhere. Problem solved, no angry neighbors.

'Guess it ran away...oh well'
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Old 06-17-2018, 12:50 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:00 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
I've used Halt a number of times and it has worked every time.

Last edited by max503; 06-17-2018 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:15 PM
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One time last year, I was crossing a nearby park and heard a noise.

There was a Pit Bull charging me at full speed.

I didn't have my CCW with me -- should have I guess.

I was getting a bit worried until he stopped about 10 feet away and started wagging his tail and the whole back end of his body.

He was looking for some petting.

Would have been a shame to shoot him.

I'm a dog lover and agree with the comment there are very few bad dogs -- but a lot of bad owners.

I asked a friend who has worked at the SPCA for 15 years.

They run into aggressive dogs fairly often.

He carries a small compressed air horn -- tuned to a frequency that hurts a dog's ears. It stops the dog in his tracks.

Available in large pet stores.

Last edited by Cal44; 06-17-2018 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:48 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts,
Whoever gave you this tidbit is an idiot. Don't be like that guy.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:57 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
I don't know about that.

First are you sure? With no tear ducts, the dogs eye balls would dry out quickly.

Plus, how come the lack of tear ducts results in pepper spray not working? The eyes and nasal passages would still be affected, wouldn't they?

What I have heard, however, is sometimes, on a particular dog, pepper spray has little effect. Same on some humans.

So you can't rely on pepper spray working 100% of the time.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:25 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
Don't know who told you that, but I sure hope you didn't pay for that piece of advice.

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Old 06-17-2018, 02:35 PM
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Pepper mace works great, in my experience.
Do not use the kind that shoots a mist-get the stream-type. The mist is too likely to blow back on you.
It the dog is really agressive, don't bother with the Mace. Use the gun. It can take too long to spray mace, see if it worked, then pull your gun, get on target, and shoot. A dog can cover a lot of ground in that short amount of time. So can a human, for that matter.
I suppose you can hold the gun in your dominant hand, and the mace in the non-dominant hand, and use as necessary, but that's something not to be attempted without a lot of practice.
Getting a good hit or two with the gun (under stress ), while a fast, dangerous animal is coming at you from a low angle is not a piece of cake.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 06-17-2018 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
Don't know who told you that, but I sure hope you didn't pay for that piece of advice.

Actually, he's partially right.
It's TEAR GAS (CS) that doesn't work very well on dogs sometimes, because they don't have tear ducts that work like ours. Or at least that's what they told us in the Academy.
Some humans, even, are relatively unaffected by pepper spray but they are pretty rare.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 06-17-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:48 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.




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Old 06-17-2018, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
One time last year, I was crossing a nearby park and heard a noise.

There was a Pit Bull charging me at full speed.

I didn't have my CCW with me -- should have I guess.

I was getting a bit worried until he stopped about 10 feet away and started wagging his tail and the whole back end of his body.

He was looking for some petting.

Would have been a shame to shoot him.

I'm a dog lover and agree with the comment there are very few bad dogs -- but a lot of bad owners.

I asked a friend who has worked at the SPCA for 15 years.

They run into aggressive dogs fairly often.

He carries a small compressed air horn -- tuned to a frequency that hurts a dog's ears. It stops the dog in his tracks.

Available in large pet stores
.
Got it! So lets see...my edc has grown to include
-Keys
-Cell phone
-Firearm
-Flashlight
-Knife
-Pepper spray
-Air Horn
NOPE. I'll skip the last two and count on my firearm to do "double-duty".

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Originally Posted by max503 View Post
I've used Halt a number of times and it has worked every time.
I used it ONCE against a Rott., while working for a utility. DIDN'T WORK AT ALL. Thank God for hot sticks.
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Old 06-17-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
I sprayed a coyote with Saber Red and cured him of ever wanting to go around people again
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:21 PM
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[quote=Arizona Ghost;140070695]No calls to the police, no paper trail. Suppressed .22LR, then bury it somewhere. Problem solved, no angry neighbors.

'Guess it ran away...oh well'[/quote
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04-25-2018 12:17 AM
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Good suggestion as long as no one sees you shoot, and the dog doesn't drop to the ground or run off yelping and squalling and bawling ( a very common occurrence ) if the brain is not hit.
Not to mention any enhanced legal repercussions that may arise from using a suppressed weapon to to kill someone's pet if killing an owner's dog is illegal in your jurisdiction.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 06-17-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:18 PM
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Good suggestion as long as no one sees you shoot...
No, it isn't.
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:43 PM
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Several years ago I was cycling in a small town in Georgia. I was just entering a residential area, all of a sudden I was faced with about 6 dogs circling me on my recumbent trike. I pulled the HALT from the bottle holder on the right side of the seat and gave a shot in a sweeping up/down motion on my right. I then did the same on my left side, as I looked back to the right a very large dog had his head buried in the grass. The rest of the dogs backed away real fast as well. The next day I was entering the same area, I looked for the dogs that ran towards me the day before, the one that I saw with his face buried in the grass stood up did a circle on the porch and laid back down, the rest just laid there and not a single one let out a bark.

Unless the dog is trained to resist the pepper spray designed for them they will respond with no permanent damage to their eyes or respiratory system. If you use bear spray on a domestic animal you risk all kinds of legal problems, it can cause damage to their eyes.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:16 PM
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Shooting a dog is a big responsibility. Almost like shooting a person.

My neighbor's dog poops and digs in my yard. It growls at me, but it's a wiener dog. If it came at me I would boot it into tomorrow. I thought about shooting it with a paint ball gun so it could go home with a splotch.
It's owner is a teacher who should know better. People should know better, but they don't.

I'm a bicyclist. We used to like in a rural area where people let their dogs run free - against the law. I used Halt on them. It is what the mailman uses. The trick with Halt is to let the dog get real close then give them a good dose right in the kisser. You have to hold off shooting until "you can see the whites obf their eyes." Wait until they are almost in contact distance. I've actually used it a good number of times and I can testify to it's effectiveness.
I assume you have talked with the owner & no joy. So live trap the dog, take it to the pound, hope the neighbor figures it out.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:20 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
Dogs nose is hyper sensitive. Put pepper spray into the nostrils, dog will not generally continue to fight. Why it works on bears too.
I've been rushed by big dogs before. Get big, act offensively, usually works. Jave a backup plan if it diesnt, but I'm not shooting a dog that isnt actually biting me.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:48 PM
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Have a backup plan if it doesnt, but I'm not shooting a dog that isnt actually biting me.
Good for you, but for some of us - those on blood thinners, can't afford to risk that.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:52 PM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
be that as it may - it sure works on their noses....
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:55 PM
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Pepper spray, including the stuff for bears, is one item or category of chemical irritant (basically). Mace, CN, and CS, are not the same as pepper, although I have heard of combinations of them with pepper. If one reads the package label with Mace (which IIRC was CS, although that has to be close to 30 years ago) it explicitly says to not use it if being attacked with any weapon, including feet or bare hands. That's a clue.

I think dogs do have a different structure in the various mucous membranes of the face, but not enough different that pepper won't work. It is not necessarily reliable enough, soon enough with a motivated/violent dog (or person) - which for the OP is not an option. Portions of seconds count.

Most pits, even if horrible with other dogs, are very friendly with people (See Call44's report above). What we see in problem dogs identified as pit bulls is often some mix, or another Molosser breed. Breed identity is not actually important - it is conduct. Contrary to the old folklore, pits don't bite harder than other dogs - bite force is a direct function of size, and their jaws don't "lock", either. They do, however, have the tenacity of the terrier breeds. Ever seen one of the other terriers on the hunt for rats, etc.?
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:21 PM
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That should read " TEAR GAS ", not " TERA GAS ".

Tried to change it, but no luck.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:46 PM
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dog r cute
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Old 06-18-2018, 03:23 AM
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Some folks say pepper spray just makes them hungry.

I have actual experience with the Halt spray. It is a low concentration pepper spray and it works great. I always let the dog get in close before I gave it to them.
A place where I used to live, dogs were an everyday thing on my bike rides. I got tired of them and got some Halt. They learned real fast and it does no lasting harm.

Too bad I couldn't spray some of the owners.

Last edited by max503; 06-18-2018 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 06-18-2018, 07:54 AM
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Shooting your neighbor's dog should be a last resort--If you do, you will have a feud that will last forever.

Never depend on a handgun round to stop a mad pit bull.

Speak with your neighbor about your concerns.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:19 AM
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I added a clip to my Halt can. The added clip allows the can to be hung from the belt the same way a gun would hang from your belt. That way I can draw and fire the Halt can quickly. With my clip the can hangs upside down and my trigger finger finds the can button just like it finds the trigger on a gun. If you use the plastic clip that comes with the can you have to fumble with it. Dog attacks happen quickly. I practiced with this just like we do with our CC firearms. It has worked for me a number of times.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:25 AM
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Talking FRIEND OF MAN & BEAST ALIKE. TAKE YOUR PICK OF 2 BAD CHOICES. (YET AGAIN)

I would prefer to be worried & looking over my shoulder for a dog, whose threats are more predictable & less premeditated/malicious, than a neighbor that is seeking revenge, & could attack anytime/anywhere. I agree, if the known threat is a dog, I might be toting a shotgun, while taking out the trash. (possibly with a bean bag first up)
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:18 AM
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I added a clip to my Halt can. The added clip allows the can to be hung from the belt the same way a gun would hang from your belt. That way I can draw and fire the Halt can quickly. With my clip the can hangs upside down and my trigger finger finds the can button just like it finds the trigger on a gun. If you use the plastic clip that comes with the can you have to fumble with it. Dog attacks happen quickly. I practiced with this just like we do with our CC firearms. It has worked for me a number of times.
I carry the Mace pepper pistol in a holster.

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Old 06-18-2018, 11:27 AM
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Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.
I have used pepper spray on a dog, he rolled on the ground in agony. I actually felt sorry for him, but I was not going to suffer a dog bite.

I used my googlefoo to find that dogs do indeed have tear ducts.

Eye Discharge or Epiphora in Dogs
By Ernest Ward, DVM

Epiphora means an overflow of tears from the eyes. ... The tear ducts drain tears into the back of the nose and the throat. Epiphora is most commonly associated with insufficient drainage of the tear film from the eye. The most common cause of insufficient tear drainage is a blockage of the lacrimal or tear ducts.

Eye Discharge or Epiphora in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:27 AM
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Speak with your neighbor about your concerns.
Two things will happen...

First, you will be cussed out with a lot of F words and told not to 'tell me how to keep my dog, he's a member of this family!', then you'll be told to 'get off the property right now'

Secondly, anything that happens to the dog will be blamed on you, now that the neighbor knows you have a problem with their dog. Dog gets sick? YOU poisoned it. Dog gets hit by a random car on the road? YOU ran it over....and now you've got a neighbor out to kill you.
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Old 06-18-2018, 12:34 PM
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Two things will happen...

First, you will be cussed out with a lot of F words and told not to 'tell me how to keep my dog, he's a member of this family!', then you'll be told to 'get off the property right now'

Secondly, anything that happens to the dog will be blamed on you, now that the neighbor knows you have a problem with their dog. Dog gets sick? YOU poisoned it. Dog gets hit by a random car on the road? YOU ran it over....and now you've got a neighbor out to kill you.
Perhaps. But I believe it would depend on what was said when approaching that neighbor.
Imagine if he said something like - "I'm a dog lover, and I see that obviously you are too. I'm concerned that someone who has less love of them might harm your dog when he is running unrestrained in the neighborhood, out of fear that he's a danger to them or their children.
I just though you might want to consider....."

If approached in such a fashion and he/she STILL responds as you suggested?...well then you know you're dealing with a totally unreasonable person and the chips should fall where they may if the dog ever attacks.
Cross the aftermath bridge when you get to it.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:19 PM
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Two things will happen...

First, you will be cussed out with a lot of F words and told not to 'tell me how to keep my dog, he's a member of this family!', then you'll be told to 'get off the property right now'

Secondly, anything that happens to the dog will be blamed on you, now that the neighbor knows you have a problem with their dog. Dog gets sick? YOU poisoned it. Dog gets hit by a random car on the road? YOU ran it over....and now you've got a neighbor out to kill you.
Maybe.

But it's still worth a try.

Talking is better than shooting.

Even Kim Jong Un figured that out.
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:10 PM
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Maybe.

But it's still worth a try.

Talking is better than shooting.

Even Kim Jong Un figured that out.
I vote for staying off their radar screen. There's too many unreasonable people in the world. Irresponsible pet care is a symptom of that.
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:12 PM
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It is MANY times more potent than any pepper spray.
Actually bear spray is about half the strength of police issue OC spray because less irritant effect is needed to deter the bear.

I've posted a video of a coyote pup biting me here before. What the video doesn't show is that I pulled out my Sabre Red after he bit me and sprayed a spritz on the ground in front of him. I didn't even get any on him. The smell alone was enough to run him off. Which was good for him because my next step was to drop kick his little ***.

I came back the next day and as soon as I got out of the car he ran and hid behind a tree
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Old 06-18-2018, 06:17 PM
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If you use bear spray on a domestic animal you risk all kinds of legal problems, it can cause damage to their eyes.
Can you cite a legal precedent for this please?
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:10 PM
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Hello, I too have had a dog charge in my rural yard before! About 30yds away I saw 3 large dogs, 2 white pits(color not race)and a shep, so we’re both frozen looking at each I yelled what are y’all doing, suddenly the pits charge, the shep right behind them, no barking just growling, FYI I love dogs, the pits were beautiful(I thought of Petey) I had just enough time to pull out my NAA 22mag and put a round in the ground just in front of the pits, lucky for me the turned away and ran into the woods! They were running so fast they couldn’t stop but made a wide turn away from me. It happened so fast I don’t think making a spray available would have worked. Now I am never without a handgun outside, especially on a walk or yard work.
I do keep a can of wasp spray handy (it sprays a stream about
20’)
Semper paratus
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:54 AM
Cal44 Cal44 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gripgrabber View Post
Hello, I too have had a dog charge in my rural yard before! About 30yds away I saw 3 large dogs, 2 white pits(color not race)and a shep, so we’re both frozen looking at each I yelled what are y’all doing, suddenly the pits charge, the shep right behind them, no barking just growling, FYI I love dogs, the pits were beautiful(I thought of Petey) I had just enough time to pull out my NAA 22mag and put a round in the ground just in front of the pits, lucky for me the turned away and ran into the woods! They were running so fast they couldn’t stop but made a wide turn away from me. It happened so fast I don’t think making a spray available would have worked. Now I am never without a handgun outside, especially on a walk or yard work.
I do keep a can of wasp spray handy (it sprays a stream about
20’)
Semper paratus
Does anyone have any info on how wasp spray worked on a large dog?

I know it works on wasps, as I've used it many times and never been stung.

But does it work quickly on a dog?

And does it poison the dog so it ends up dying later?

It is poison, after all.

Somehow I have a hard time thinking of poison as a self defense weapon.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:04 AM
Chief Wiggums Chief Wiggums is offline
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I carry the Mace pepper pistol in a holster.

I am sure that mace pepper pistol is effective , however the appearance is that of a ……….. pistol
potential to easily be mistaken as a …..pistol

many bad things can happen...….
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  #89  
Old 06-19-2018, 08:47 AM
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Default Want to argue about dogs?

This may or may not be pertinent to this "discussion". Details are vague at the moment.

I won't comment on it other than to say...well, no, on second thought, I really won't comment on it.

One killed, two wounded in argument over dog in Fort Meade, Florida.
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:40 AM
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I know it works on wasps, as I've used it many times and never been stung.
If you were standing in your garage and the wasp spray was the only thing within reach, I think you'd be ok using it defensively. Carrying it around may be another matter.

Some of us are recommending the bear spray because the nozzle is designed to lay out a wall of spray instead of a stream. The stream must be aimed at, and connect with, the face of a moving animal- not so easy. The fog type of nozzle on the bear spray puts out a force field between where you're standing and the animal, such that it has to run through the pepper fog to get to you.

The downside to any spray is the wind- and especially with a fog type of spray. It may come back at you.

Wasp spray offers no advantages over a pepper spray- the cans are bigger and harder to carry, spray button is not designed to immediate use, and spray a stream of chemicals that may or may not do the job. If the dog were to suffer some permanent damage you could be on the hook for it; not because you were defending yourself, but because you choose to deploy a chemical agent that wasn't designed to do what you used it for (total theory though, not a lwayer).
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:40 AM
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Default MORE CHLORINE FOR THE GENE POOL.

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Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
This may or may not be pertinent to this "discussion". Details are vague at the moment.

I won't comment on it other than to say...well, no, on second thought, I really won't comment on it.

One killed, two wounded in argument over dog in Fort Meade, Florida.
NOT THE BEST PLAN. Wait until 1:30 AM to confront a neighbor (with 2 buddies for "moral support") about a dog problem??? What could possibly go wrong here? Dollars to donuts it took some liquid or chemical courage for the three to confront one.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:49 AM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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...
The downside to any spray is the wind- and especially with a fog type of spray. It may come back at you.
...
Good point about the spray coming back. If you have asthma or some other form of COPD, better to stick with lead based repellents (9mm, .45).

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...
Wasp spray offers no advantages over a pepper spray-
...
Thanks to the magic of the internet, there appears to be no shortage of people willing to make a video of themselves doing stupid things.

On YouTube, there are videos of people that have had themselves sprayed in the face with wasp spray and pepper spray to see the difference. Other than probably exposing themselves to some type of chemical carcinogen, the wasp spray didn't have any immediate effect. Probably wouldn't on dogs either.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:02 PM
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Thanks to the magic of the internet, there appears to be no shortage of people willing to make a video of themselves doing stupid things.
There's some anti-gun clown running for office somewhere who doesn't believe in arming school personnel against active shooters- he believes pepper spray is the solution. To demonstrate its effectiveness he allows someone to spray him in the face with a healthy dose of pepper spray...

Either he's too much of a fool to realize (or isn't a fool but thinks you are too much of a fool to realize) the comparison between him politely standing in one spot allowing someone to spray him in the face with at least a ten second blast and a young person with a gun moving and resisting the application is not apt.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:05 PM
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With the scenario the OP presents, I'm all for the SSS (shoot, shovel, shut up) plan of action. Of course, as long as the owners don't witness the event.

I would also lay out a general plan of action for legal action against the owners if they do happen to see what their negligence has wrought. People like that don't deserve to own a goldfish, much less a canine.

Mace/wasp spray depend too much on the whims of Mother Nature for my liking.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
Does anyone have any info on how wasp spray worked on a large dog?

I know it works on wasps, as I've used it many times and never been stung.

But does it work quickly on a dog?

And does it poison the dog so it ends up dying later?

It is poison, after all.

Somehow I have a hard time thinking of poison as a self defense weapon.
The legal issues are using a product in a manner contrary to the label. In the case of wasp spray a toxic product which has different use and misuse penalties. Use violations may not come in to play but a descent lawyer can make a case. They love making money by confusing people with science.

Here are a couple boring links;
Regulatory Information by Topic: Toxic Substances | Regulatory Information By Topic | US EPA

Regulatory Information by Topic: Toxic Substances | Regulatory Information By Topic | US EPA
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:32 PM
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Control your mutt at all times, otherwise........
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Old 06-19-2018, 02:11 PM
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Living with neighbors and their kids, pets, habits, etc. is an art and a science. Some folks are better at it than others. Some folks are blessed with good neighbors, or very few of them that are a long distance away.
One of many solutions is to relocate. It is not always feasible, and would be a last ditch maneuver for most of us.
In this case, considering all the concerns about neighbors over the last several years that the OP has posed, it may be worth a consideration. But prior to that, I would consider trying to figure out how to better live with people and maintain my own sanity. There have been many, many suggestions provided to the OP over the last several years concerning 'neighbor relations', and I am not certain this forum is the best place to get the best advice, considering that we are not for the most part in the same jurisdiction, and do not know the whole story. There has been a lot of good advice, and some rather bad suggestions as well. Please be careful which route you take. And before taking any, seek legal counsel from an expert that is well versed in the legalities surrounding your jurisdiction. This will not be inexpensive, but will cost a lot less than taking action based on some of the helpful suggestions that have been offered up.
I wish you good luck with this situation and hope you find peace in the near future.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:47 PM
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Although I have to agree, this forum may not be the best place to find your solution, it provides a broad base of experience to draw from.

I also hope you find a little peace.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
Does anyone have any info on how wasp spray worked on a large dog?

I know it works on wasps, as I've used it many times and never been stung.

But does it work quickly on a dog?

And does it poison the dog so it ends up dying later?

It is poison, after all.

Somehow I have a hard time thinking of poison as a self defense weapon.
Like all insecticides, wasp spray is poison. That's why they're called insecticides...they kill what they come in contact with.

Insecticides are labeled as poison on their containers. Consumers are warned to keep children and pets away from them and treated areas. Some insecticides even warn consumers to wear a mask and gloves when using them.

Someone would have to be a total jerkwad to deliberately spray a dog, or any other animal, with poison.
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:12 PM
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Definitely.

Wise counsel. I would suggest the smaller canisters of bear spray as they tend to put out a greater volume of product with a larger cone. You may not be super accurate and with the smaller-stream sprays there is a better chance you might miss.
the smaller cans of mace are for disabling a human .. with an animal you want the animal to be able to leave the area .. that's why Bear Spray has a lower pepper rating then the ones for humans which will disable them ..
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