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  #51  
Old 06-20-2018, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
The first gun I purchased since getting back into shooting about 5 years ago was an LC9. (The original version was the only one available at the time).

I took it to the range and couldn't hit anything with it. It was a struggle getting holes anywhere on the paper at 10 yards.

I put it into the back of the safe and forgot about it.

Went to revolvers, and started practicing double action shooting
with J frames.

That was a struggle too, at first, but eventually I got reasonably good at it.

About six months ago, I took the LC9 out and found now I could shoot it even though I hadn't touched it in over four years. I found the trigger of the LC9 about like a Smith DA J frame.

I also have Ruger LCRs and like their trigger too. I don't find it that much better than the Smith's, just different.

Anyway, if I ever decide to carry a semi, it will probably be the LC9. The long double action trigger pull is a safety advantage. Plus it has a thumb safety if I want to use it.

I see no need to replace my LC9 with the LC9s. I've never had a jamming problem with my current LC9. It has a reputation as dead nuts reliable.

I believe I can get reasonably proficient with just about any handgun, but it takes practice and when I first start out, I'm all over the map if I try something really different than what I've shot before.
I couldn't agree more. The LC9 has the most revolver-like trigger of any semi-auto I own. But what do we know, right? We just OWN and SHOOT them, unlike others who have just tried one.
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  #52  
Old 06-20-2018, 10:05 PM
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The tried & true .357 Mag is devastating no doubt. It's like a lower velocity rifle round. Im a fan & user of larger calibers; .40 & .45 etc. They work & make bigger holes & big holes bleed faster. The .357 however does make a big hole but internally. Look at autopsy results; it is the nasty of nasties as far as HG rounds go. Yes a smack dead on CNS shut down is ideal but people are tough & don't stand still. Regardless the kinetic energy dumped anywhere into a human body by a .357 is pretty nasty.

My father back in the police wheelgun days used Rem. 125 Gr SJHP's. They blistered along over 1400 fps. He never had to shoot a baddy but some of his colleagues did. The results were generally death. The tissue was destroyed & bones were smushed to oblivion.

I've seen .357 mags used in felonious assaults & suicides. The word: messy says it all! None of the current PD calibers do that kind of damage. Especially the newest darling: the 9mm. I'm still using my trusty .40's and will after I retire. I see no need to downgrade to smaller. The .40 has nearly 30 years on the job just like the .357 had decades of service in LE. Time will tell if this newest crop of wonder 9mm bullets will live up to the hype.

What I hear & see is a lot of speculation & conjecture about the 9mm's effectiveness. The .357 mag has been proven on living targets for decades...bipedal & quadrupedal.
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  #53  
Old 06-20-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dr. mordo View Post
Have you read the FBI research? They have come to the conclusion that the only reliable means of generating a one-stop-shot is a hit to the central nervous system (CNS), no matter what the caliber.

Hydrostatic shock may very well cause a mortal injury, but it may not immediately incapacitate the bad guy, which is the whole point of shooting him in the first place. The Miami FBI shootout is a classic example of this, where after receiving a shot that would have eventually proven fatal, the BG killed or wounded 8 agents before they stopped him with a CNS hit.
Kinda why the Candian Mounties “invented” tear gas? A fatal gunshot wound to a grizzly often left the bear plenty of time to finish you.

I have direct experience with mace and an attacking drug addict. The darn stuff did its thing.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:57 PM
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Kinda why the Candian Mounties “invented” tear gas? A fatal gunshot wound to a grizzly often left the bear plenty of time to finish you.

I have direct experience with mace and an attacking drug addict. The darn stuff did its thing.
Dunno' 'bout mace, but Military (CS) tear gas is pretty effective as a deterrent...

Last edited by BC38; 06-21-2018 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The issue with studying anecdotal events, like M&S, every shooting is diff. One guy folds COM hit, another guy takes 3 & keeps going. So where do you draw the line? The one shot stop is more luck than science, unless you get a CNS, & then caliber doesn't mean anything. The 357mag is a good fight stopper. How much better than say 9mm, 40 or 45 with good JHP is the only question.
The only absolute thing I can say is that... there are no absolutes.

Every bullet impact and effect will be different. And as pointed out above someone can die from a minor wound while a strong willed individual will survive what should be a fatal one.

Case in point, Officer (now Sergeant) Stacy Lim LAPD.

In June 1990 she was shot by a gang member while off duty by a .357 magnum at short range. The bullet went through the left side of her chest front to back and hit her heart, live and spleen. The exit wound in her back was the size of a tennis ball.

Stacy survived because she had the mindset that she was not going to die.

As for the feeling of being shot, she described it as "take a javelin, heat out to 1000 degrees then run it through your body. That is what it felt like".

And no, I would not like to be shot anywhere with a .357, let alone in the heart, liver and spleen.

Last edited by Kiwi cop; 06-21-2018 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 06-22-2018, 06:47 AM
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The only absolute thing I can say is that... there are no absolutes.

Every bullet impact and effect will be different. And as pointed out above someone can die from a minor wound while a strong willed individual will survive what should be a fatal one.

Case in point, Officer (now Sergeant) Stacy Lim LAPD.

In June 1990 she was shot by a gang member while off duty by a .357 magnum at short range. The bullet went through the left side of her chest front to back and hit her heart, live and spleen. The exit wound in her back was the size of a tennis ball.

Stacy survived because she had the mindset that she was not going to die.

As for the feeling of being shot, she described it as "take a javelin, heat out to 1000 degrees then run it through your body. That is what it felt like".

And no, I would not like to be shot anywhere with a .357, let alone in the heart, liver and spleen.


I remember reading Massad Ayoob’s account of the incident.

IIRC, she not only survived, but killed her assailant with her Beretta 92.
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:29 AM
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I remember reading Massad Ayoob’s account of the incident.

IIRC, she not only survived, but killed her assailant with her Beretta 92.
And he fired 5 more rounds at her which all missed while she was shooting him. His gangbanger mates all fled the gunfight on foot.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:47 AM
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There are a lot of days I feel like carrying my Ruger SP101 with .357 magnum loads. Here in Florida we wear shorts and a T-shirt a good part of the year so on those days the Shield 9mm gets carried. If I'm on the road there will always be a 45acp real handy. Personally I wouldn't care to be popped with any of them.
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:40 AM
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Default There are just SOmany variables...

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Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I had some thoughts I'd like to share and to start a discussion.

First, I'll say I'm not a ballistics expert, not a cop, haven't shot anyone, and a lot of what I've learned comes from the Internet.

That said, I am an engineer and as such took a lot of courses in physics, chemistry, materials science, and hydrodynamics.

I've read many times that hydro static shock only comes into play at rifle velocities and isn't a factor in handgun ammo.

But I wonder about that.

I've seen lots of Internet videos of various handgun rounds hitting soda bottles or milk bottes filled with water.

Typically, when a small caliber round like a 22, or 25, or 38 etc. hits a 2 liter soda bottle it makes a small entrance hole and then an exit hole.

The contents of the bottle spurts out in two streams out both holes.

If the round expands, the exit hole is larger as is the corresponding stream.

But somewhere north of 1100 fps or so, the results are significantly different.

Often a whole side of the bottle is split and torn.

I'm think what is happening is the bullet impacting the bottle and entering the soda (or water) is setting up a pressure shock wave in the fluid. And this shock wave, at higher velocities results in sufficient stress on the plastic walls of the bottle tear them wide open.

Slower moving rounds also would also set of a hydro static pressure wave, but not strong enough to split the thick plastic bottle.

Now the skin of a mammal (game animal or human) is sufficiently flexible that it won't tear then hit by a pressure shock wave. So the bad guy or deer are not split open.

But (and here I really am guessing as I have little biology training), I believe that a pressure shock wave going through the body can mess up internal organs. Perhaps not destroying them, but putting them in a temporary state of shock -- and perhaps even shut down briefly.

An analogy is what happens when someone hits you in the solar plexus -- and you find you can't breath for a few seconds.

I'm wondering if this might be a factor in why 357 Magnum, and other rounds that travel at 1200 fps or more seem so effective at stopping aggressive bad guy behavior.
I purchased my S&W 686-6 with the belief it was the only handgun I would ever need. Then, I discovered this forum and started my journey of discovery.

I've done my own ballistic gel tests, some effective, some not and come to my own conclusions.

I currently carry a Sig P224 .40 caliber and have a suppressed weapon as my home defense "nightstand" gun.

I recommend you consider doing your own tests, if you're truly interested in getting measurable results. Ballistic gelatin is only a tool however. It can't give a real example of what you could expect from shooting a human.
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  #60  
Old 06-28-2018, 06:02 PM
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Well, I like the .357 'cause even if I miss, he will end up deaf, visually impaired if at night, and on fire.
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