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  #51  
Old 06-24-2018, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Interesting. You're the first I've heard of that has had more issues, of any kind, than semi-autos. I have a few revolvers and none have ever failed in any way. Can't say that for the semi-autos. Of course I don't have as many rounds through the revolvers. Maybe I should step up my revolver game?
Frankly the older Smith's were of higher quality. I personally would pay more for S&W revolvers with the workmanship of yesteryear. I see so many new revolvers with canted barrels and poor workmanship. I wish smith would get the message, people will pay a higher price for quality.

I still buy some of the news ones but not without an intense inspection with the reading glasses and a flashlight.

I love S&W and I don't want them to go the way of Colt.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:13 PM
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Default That's it.

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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
I'm honestly pleasantly surprised to see so many folks agree with me here, guess I've just gotten so used to seeing wannabe experts on various forums who somehow feel qualified to dictate what everyone ought to carry with blatant disregard for circumstances/preferences which may render their arbitrary definition of the perfect, one-size-fits-all platform/caliber combination uncomfortable, unwieldy, or even utterly ineffective in the hands of folks other than themselves.

For example, my EDC is a Smith & Wesson manufactured Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP and my Home Defense firearm is a Taurus Judge Magnum, and boy oh boy have I ever gotten an earful on how poor of a choice I have made with that combination... Never mind that it works for me, it deviates too far from the status-quo in just about every camp/school of thought there is, and therefore it must be responded to with the utmost snobbery and even hostility.
I've heard it all and then some, yet it never ceases to leave me utterly bewildered. What is this odd obsession with attempting to force others to reconsider their choice of firearms? I seriously doubt that it was born of legitimate concern when the folks who do it are so needlessly rude/imposing on the matter, most often presented as a demand or even a threat-by-proxy rather than a simple suggestion, which is needless to say a terribly ineffective way to convince someone to reconsider their decision.
Just saying, "If you value your life then you should dump that pea-shooter and pick up a real man's gun like the one I carry!" or worse, "You must really hate yourself and your family if you carry that piece of junk." doesn't exactly make for a convincing argument, let alone a positive suggestion that one is likely to accept, yet you see stuff to that affect quite often on the internet.

Ah, but then again... I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised that folks here are more laid back and friendly, seeing as Smith & Wesson isn't exactly in with the overcompensating, tacticool, Mall Ninja/Armchair Commando crowd, nor would I still be an active poster on these forums if the userbase was compromised of such *ahem* characters.
Ok Harry that's it I'm sending you a friend request.
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  #53  
Old 06-24-2018, 11:51 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
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Much to do about a revolver or an auto .. either one you carry you should be proficient with it ..

I believe a lot should depend on the area you live in and the type of crime that is prevalent in that area !!

someone living in a sleepy country town a revolver might well be appropriate for the expected crime .. now someone living near/in a large city an auto with over 10 rounds may be more appropriate for them ..

You have to look at all the variables and go with which ever you feel is most appropriate for your personnel safety !! Everyone has differing needs !!
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:08 AM
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Lot to be said about where and when alright. We had a murder here just 18 years ago! I have been here 9 years and no armed robberies in that time. I feel fine walking around with a revolver. I am more apt to encounter a mountain lion or a bear in the middle of town, than a 2 legged problem.

Now, if I lived in somewhere with a high crime rate I might well change my carry gun. Na, I would move.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:19 AM
Chief Wiggums Chief Wiggums is offline
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is this the 9mm vs .45 thread?
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  #56  
Old 06-25-2018, 08:58 AM
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is this the 9mm vs .45 thread?
Nope, it's a Bear Defense thread.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by HorizontalMike View Post
Bingo! While I own three Smiths and carry a J-Frame, my newly ordered Kimber K6S arrives this Wednesday!

My reason for going non-Smith is that my last two, a 642 and 627PC, both showed up with QC issues and I had to re-work the triggers on each. My 32yr old 686, bought new, is/was a much better gun then as well as now. Don't get me wrong, I love S&W revolvers, but have soured on having to do my own DIY "tuning" after paying premium price$.

Please do a report on your K6S.
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  #58  
Old 06-25-2018, 10:38 AM
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For me it is really simple, any gun I own that is accurate, and reliable. I carry both pistol, and revolver. Depends on my mood, weather, location.

Both make holes, and bad guys most times do not want to be on the wrong end of either.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:57 AM
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I believe in choosing the right tool for the job and not every tool is equally capable and appropriately well-suited for a particular task. It makes little sense choosing a flat head screwdriver when the task calls for a Philips

There is always the seemingly straight-forward and sensible advice of choosing your weapon based on what you're "most proficient with" or "what works for you" given on threads such as these. Proficient at what? And how does that particular gun "work for you"? In the context of how most people shoot at the range, there is no doubt I shoot my Glock 19 better than I do my snub. Reloading speed and efficiency is no contest. However, I don't see that being a reason to choose to carry the Glock since I just do not see it being the best tool for the job. Each tool has certain attributes and when weighing those of the Glock vs a snub revolver, I come to the conclusion that the latter makes the most sense as a carry weapon. That doesn't mean I'm actually correct since the problem is not as simple as choosing the proper screwdriver, but you should be able to articulate why your choice makes sense with logical assertions backed up by facts and statistics. There will be trade-offs no matter what you choose and you can't prepare for every contingency, but I think it is logical to choose based on what is best suited for what is most probable.

As such, not every choice is equally valid, just as every opinion doesn't carry equal merit. With self-defense based martial arts, you'll see countless opinions as to what the best styles and techniques are with some saying it's simply a matter of what's best suited for you as an individual. There is a degree of merit to that thinking, but the parameters are not nearly as broad as some make them out to be since some systems are obviously not very effective in any circumstances. With experience and facts, comes a substantial narrowing of acceptable choices. A key component is determining what it is that you will have to defend against. Regardless of what someone may think or wish to be true, having to counter an overhand right is much more likely than having to do so against a jumping, spinning, reverse crescent kick, so it makes sense to allocate a greater percentage of your training time and finding effective techniques for defending against the punch.

The autoloaders primary advantage is capacity and ease of reloading, but I have yet to see evidence that demonstrates those attributes will likely be of any advantage for the civilian carrying concealed in all but the rarest of circumstances. In a high round count, ranged gunfight against multiple armed assailants, there's no doubt I would want my Glock 17 or 19 over my snub, but where is the proof that such a scenario is a reasonably likely occurrence or that it is more or even close to being as probable as the reactive, close-quarter or contact scenarios in which the snub revolver excels?
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:04 AM
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My choices are always valid for me. Don't much care about others unless they are breaking the law, then my go to tool is my phone if the law breakers are not a direct threat. As far as Philips to flat head they both have been used as effective stabbing instruments. Golf clubs, and steel rods both have been used as effective blunt objects. Being run over by a bus, or a commercial truck is probably going to end the same way.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:08 AM
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I carry a Centennial, lately a model 640. In my area the biggest threat is the occasional black bear, so when I’m out hiking I load Buffalo Bore .357 instead of the usual .38 +p. That way if I do see a bear, and it doesn’t run off like 99% of them do, I can discharge my carry gun and die stone deaf (after I pee myself).

In all seriousness, I carry a Centennial because they’re what I like and what I’m most comfortable with. If I ever found a pistol that could bring me the same level of comfort in handling/use and ease of carry, I might give it a go... but for me the Centennials work so well I haven’t felt the need to look for a pistol in some time.

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Old 06-25-2018, 11:24 AM
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I'm more comfortable with a hammer fired gun so the 357 for me over the 19. Now something like a 3953 - much tougher choice.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:32 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is online now
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I believe in choosing the right tool for the job and not every tool is equally capable and appropriately well-suited for a particular task. It makes little sense choosing a flat head screwdriver when the task calls for a Philips

There is always the seemingly straight-forward and sensible advice of choosing your weapon based on what you're "most proficient with" or "what works for you" given on threads such as these. Proficient at what? And how does that particular gun "work for you"? In the context of how most people shoot at the range, there is no doubt I shoot my Glock 19 better than I do my snub. Reloading speed and efficiency is no contest. However, I don't see that being a reason to choose to carry the Glock since I just do not see it being the best tool for the job. Each tool has certain attributes and when weighing those of the Glock vs a snub revolver, I come to the conclusion that the latter makes the most sense as a carry weapon. That doesn't mean I'm actually correct since the problem is not as simple as choosing the proper screwdriver, but you should be able to articulate why your choice makes sense with logical assertions backed up by facts and statistics. There will be trade-offs no matter what you choose and you can't prepare for every contingency, but I think it is logical to choose based on what is best suited for what is most probable.
To put it simply, I don't subscribe to the "one-size-fits-all" mentality that there is an objective best selection which not only offers the best performance, but also functions equally as well in the hands of everyone, ergo choosing "the best suited for what is most probable" is determined through individual distinction, and while I may not have said this aloud in my opening post, obviously effectiveness is a factor.
Furthermore, I have watched people who go so far in their search for the ideal self-defense weapon that they end up obsessed to point that they're throwing money away by constantly experimenting with new firearms/ammo, and in some cases even becoming paranoid because they've spent so long looking for that which is the best that they ultimately question the effectiveness of everything, then turning to something new because, "What if what I've got isn't enough?"

Say what you will, but I'd rather stick with what works than spend an excessive amount of time, effort, and money in search of "the best" combination when the likelihood of me ever even having to use my firearms in self-defense isn't even all that high, and if it were that high and I had the necessary time, money, and energy to experiment until I find the best combination, then I'd sooner invest it all in moving somewhere with a lower crime rate.

Is my choice of the Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP the best choice based on that which is most probable? I honestly don't know, but I am familiar enough with it to know that it will most certainly get the job done should I need it, and that's good enough for me.

It's an imperfect world we live in with a vast number of probabilities within any scenario, too many in my opinion to consider, much less hope to come to an ideal conclusion on any given matter of importance so vital that they can make the difference between life and death, ergo I'll settle for that which is adequate over that which is the best.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
To put it simply, I don't subscribe to the "one-size-fits-all" mentality that there is an objective best selection which not only offers the best performance, but also functions equally as well in the hands of everyone, ergo choosing "the best suited for what is most probable" is determined through individual distinction, and while I may not have said this aloud in my opening post, obviously effectiveness is a factor.
Furthermore, I have watched people who go so far in their search for the ideal self-defense weapon that they end up obsessed to point that they're throwing money away by constantly experimenting with new firearms/ammo, and in some cases even becoming paranoid because they've spent so long looking for that which is the best that they ultimately question the effectiveness of everything, then turning to something new because, "What if what I've got isn't enough?"

Say what you will, but I'd rather stick with what works than spend an excessive amount of time, effort, and money in search of "the best" combination when the likelihood of me ever even having to use my firearms in self-defense isn't even all that high, and if it were that high and I had the necessary time, money, and energy to experiment until I find the best combination, then I'd sooner invest it all in moving somewhere with a lower crime rate.

Is my choice of the Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP the best choice based on that which is most probable? I honestly don't know, but I am familiar enough with it to know that it will most certainly get the job done should I need it, and that's good enough for me.

It's an imperfect world we live in with a vast number of probabilities within any scenario, too many in my opinion to consider, much less hope to come to an ideal conclusion on any given matter of importance so vital that they can make the difference between life and death, ergo I'll settle for that which is adequate over that which is the best.

How do your guns work for you? Are you routinely getting into deadly force encounters? Are you using a simmunition version of it in Force-on-force training and ECQ scenario drills?

One size might not fit all, but it oftens fits most. You can walk into any reputable BJJ gym and every single one of the brown and black belts can fight and will usually do very well in a street encounter, no matter their age or gender. Most will even prove it to you should you feel it necessary to test them. You can't say the same about most martial arts since the techniques and training methods just simply are not as effective. Prior to MMA, there was great diversity in the martial arts with there being relatively equal validity given to the various styles and systems, but that is really no longer the case. I can remember numerous LEO's flocking to Aikido schools when Steven Seagal was big at the box office, but we know better now. Not that aikido has absolutely nothing to offer, just that there are much more effective systems for real-world self-defense if that is your goal. There are some extremely talented martial artists who can pretty much make nearly any system work fairly well, but they would be the exception. Just as there are many talented individuals who can handle a semi-auto in an entanglement with great efficiency, but they again are the exception.

Just go on YouTube and watch a few of Craig "Southnarc" Douglas' ECQC vids and you'll see very frequent malfunctions with the Glock sim guns. A lots of folks who have gone through that coursework switch to a snub revolver afterwards for carry due to its effectiveness in that environment. The rise of MMA as a proving ground was a transitional period in martial arts that advanced understanding and provided evidence of what worked and what did not. A lot was simply rediscovering long forgotten lessons from more violent periods in our history. The same is not likely to happen in armed defense since it is much more difficult to test what's effective for obvious reasons, but we do have fairly accurate simulations in force-on-force training as well as immediate access to statistics and video of countles actual scenarios. Still, most people in the world don't carry a gun on a daily basis so a certain amount theory will be required in many instances.

Based on available statistics as well as common sense, the most likely scenario in which I would need to defend myself using a firearm will be at contact distances out to a few yards. In an extreme close-quarter scenario, the enclosed hammer revolver is simply more efficient. That's pretty much the case with everyone with perhaps very rare exceptions.

You could argue that everyone is in different circumstances, but where is the proof? Where in this country are people at high risk of getting into a ranged gunfight at all, let alone with multiple armed assailants? In contrast, the chance of contact distance or very close-quarter violence is relatively high and most of us will experience it some point in our lives.
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:21 PM
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In contrast, the chance of contact distance or very close-quarter violence is relatively high and most of us will experience it some point in our lives.
Where are you getting these stats from?
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:31 PM
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@Mister X, My guns work for me because I work with them. How do you know that your guns work for you? Forgive me for being presumptuous, but somehow I doubt that you frequently find yourself in deadly force encounters, so by what criteria do you gauge the aptitude of your own firearms?

No offense, but you're sounding more and more like a Mall Ninja with each passing comment. You don't have to be an expert in firearms nor CQC to defend yourself in everyday civilian life, most criminals are just petty thugs who aren't looking for a fight of any kind, much less an all-out gunfight, but rather an easy target who they can easily rob. Heck, even most of the ones who are looking for a fight aren't exactly known for being combat experts.
Oh well, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you any further on the subject.

Bottom line, I am confident in my abilities to adequately defend myself with what I've got, and I don't need to convince you or anyone else for that matter that I am capable of doing so. In fact, in my experience it is those who are most insecure who feel the need to convince others (especially strangers on the internet) of their capabilities.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:52 PM
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@Mister X, My guns work for me because I work with them. How do you know that your guns work for you? Forgive me for being presumptuous, but somehow I doubt that you frequently find yourself in deadly force encounters, so by what criteria do you gauge the aptitude of your own firearms?

No offense, but you're sounding more and more like a Mall Ninja with each passing comment. You don't have to be an expert in firearms nor CQC to defend yourself in everyday civilian life, most criminals are just petty thugs who aren't looking for a fight of any kind, much less an all-out gunfight, but rather an easy target who they can easily rob. Heck, even most of the ones who are looking for a fight aren't exactly known for being combat experts.
Oh well, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you any further on the subject.

Bottom line, I am confident in my abilities to adequately defend myself with what I've got, and I don't need to convince you or anyone else for that matter that I am capable of doing so. In fact, in my experience it is those who are most insecure who feel the need to convince others (especially strangers on the internet) of their capabilities.
I wasn't aware we were arguing or that there was any need to convince me of anything. I was simply debating the issue. This is a forum after all. You are the one who just got snarky and made it personal because you didn't want to answer simple legitimate inquiries. I'm open-minded and like getting different perspectives. My ideas are not set in stone and I like them challenged(with respect and civility) to see if they hold up against scrutiny and alternate opinions.

Mall ninja? Looking up the definition...[an uneperienced individual obsessed with tactical, paramilitary style firearms who pretends to be seasoned operator/Spec Ops]. I must be the worst mall ninja ever since I'm most often advocating for the S&W snub revolver as a carry weapon and frequently state that I think military gear and operations have little in common with civilian self-defense.

I know the snub works because I've pressure-tested it. Not only in live range fire, but in force-on-force scenarios. Primarily of the ECQ variety, because that is what I expect to involved in and unable to avoid. I also taught DT, disarms and weapon retention to Cops for three decades in addition to teaching civilian martial arts and reality-based self-defense during the same period.

You seem to have a very narrow view of crime as if it's only about petty robbery. That's really far from the truth. I agree you don't have to be an expert of any kind to successfully defend yourself and your wits and situational awareness will go a long way in avoiding conflict, but being better prepared by having the right tools, some functional skill-sets and effective training is still better than not having them and I thought that's is what we are discussing. This is especially true with older individuals who are more limited in their ability to respond, but also have more leeway with introducing lethal force. But, they have to be able to get to that point with their limitations and hopefully without taking too severe of a beating. That doesn't mean they have to undertake extensive training, which would be counter-productive, but they can learn some basics and understand the overall dynamics from those who have. I mention the elderly, because there are quite a few on this forum(and I'm not getting any younger myself) and if I had to guess, I think you just might fit that demographic, but if not, no offense intended either way.

I wouldn't underestimate most criminals abilities. Have you never been to a prison? Beyond just the physicality of most of the inmates(they spend much of their free time pumping iron after all), many are preoccupied, extremely skilled and experienced in inflicting violence in the most efficient means possible and unless you live a very limited life, it's not at all unrealistic to think you'll eventually cross paths with them.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:05 PM
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Where are you getting these stats from?
Bereau of Justice Statistics, FBI UCR tables, numerous articles, common sense. There are also multiple studies and stats on civilian defense shootings by Claude Werner, Tom Givens, Ed Lovette, John Correia to name a few.

They are not hard to find.
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:37 AM
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Carry the gun that you are comfortable with and well practiced with. I'm a big revolver fan.
The .357 magnum has it's advantages and disadvantages. Over penetration, excessive flash/night blindness, heavy recoil are some of the more notable disadvantages. Consider using .38 Special +P SJHP or SWCHP (the "FBI load"). Over penetration potential of the .357 mag concerns me. If I can defend myself just as effectively with .38 +P, without risking having to explain in court, why I chose .357 mag. if my bullet goes through my target and injures an innocent.
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:56 AM
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I'm honestly pleasantly surprised to see so many folks agree with me here, guess I've just gotten so used to seeing wannabe experts on various forums who somehow feel qualified to dictate what everyone ought to carry with blatant disregard for circumstances/preferences which may render their arbitrary definition of the perfect, one-size-fits-all platform/caliber combination uncomfortable, unwieldy, or even utterly ineffective in the hands of folks other than themselves.

For example, my EDC is a Smith & Wesson manufactured Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP and my Home Defense firearm is a Taurus Judge Magnum, and boy oh boy have I ever gotten an earful on how poor of a choice I have made with that combination... Never mind that it works for me, it deviates too far from the status-quo in just about every camp/school of thought there is, and therefore it must be responded to with the utmost snobbery and even hostility.
I've heard it all and then some, yet it never ceases to leave me utterly bewildered. What is this odd obsession with attempting to force others to reconsider their choice of firearms? I seriously doubt that it was born of legitimate concern when the folks who do it are so needlessly rude/imposing on the matter, most often presented as a demand or even a threat-by-proxy rather than a simple suggestion, which is needless to say a terribly ineffective way to convince someone to reconsider their decision.
Just saying, "If you value your life then you should dump that pea-shooter and pick up a real man's gun like the one I carry!" or worse, "You must really hate yourself and your family if you carry that piece of junk." doesn't exactly make for a convincing argument, let alone a positive suggestion that one is likely to accept, yet you see stuff to that affect quite often on the internet.

Ah, but then again... I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised that folks here are more laid back and friendly, seeing as Smith & Wesson isn't exactly in with the overcompensating, tacticool, Mall Ninja/Armchair Commando crowd, nor would I still be an active poster on these forums if the userbase was compromised of such *ahem* characters.
IMO, the .380 is much better than nothing, but you could do better. It's not just the round, it the shot placement and your ability to hit you target under stress. I had a .380 semi-auto for a few years, but the more I learned (and saw), the less confidence I had in the .380 as an effective EDC. If my opponent has a gun and is trying to kill me, I don't want a .380. I want a heavy bullet at least 158 gr and preferably 180-230 gr. Consider either a .38 special +P or a compact .45 ACP. The bigger the hole (wound cavity), the more bleeding and the faster the target is incapacitated.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:34 AM
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...

This is especially true with older individuals who are more limited in their ability to respond, but also have more leeway with introducing lethal force. But, they have to be able to get to that point with their limitations and hopefully without taking too severe of a beating. That doesn't mean they have to undertake extensive training, which would be counter-productive, but they can learn some basics and understand the overall dynamics from those who have.

...
You bring this idea of inadequately trained self defenders up a lot, but you always seem vague about the specifics. Other than carrying a snub I don’t recall you actually putting any detail behind it in your posts.

So, other than carrying a snub, what do you consider to be “the basics” that the “over 60” crowd of armed self defenders are missing?

How much training is not extensive and not counter productive?
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:46 AM
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You bring this idea of inadequately trained self defenders up a lot, but you always seem vague about the specifics. Other than carrying a snub I don’t recall you actually putting any detail behind it in your posts.

So, other than carrying a snub, what do you consider to be “the basics” that the “over 60” crowd of armed self defenders are missing?

How much training is not extensive and not counter productive?
I'm primarily referring to integrated unarmed skills, which so many seem to completely neglect. Being able to avoid taking severe punishment resulting in significant injury, while getting the gun into the fight and getting off shots without having the gun taken away. An elderly individual will have slower processing of environmental stimuli and activity(less effective situational awareness), limited physical ability: mobility, reflexes, strength, quickness etc...

Due to this, it is more likely they will not be able to create and maintain distance and separation as effectively as a younger individual against a physical assault.

Obviously there is a great deal of variation in general physical ability among the elderly, so the degree of intensity of training they can safely engage in varies significantly, as does their odds of success in an actual defense encounter since we don't get to choose our assailants.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:21 AM
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I'm primarily referring to integrated unarmed skills, which so many seem to completely neglect. Being able to avoid taking severe punishment resulting in significant injury, while getting the gun into the fight and getting off shots without having the gun taken away. An elderly individual will have slower processing of environmental stimuli and activity(less effective situational awareness), limited physical ability: mobility, reflexes, strength, quickness etc...

Due to this, it is more likely they will not be able to create and maintain distance and separation as effectively as a younger individual against a physical assault.

Obviously there is a great deal of variation in general physical ability among the elderly, so the degree of intensity of training they can safely engage in varies significantly, as does their odds of success in an actual defense encounter since we don't get to choose our assailants.
That's still pretty broad. IMO, unless you're in the .001% of the over 60 crowd that's still rolling on the mat, your chances of success in an entangled fight with a 20 year old criminal are pretty much nil. From my perspective, I think that only gives you four options...

1) Up your SA game. If possible, keep your distance and react first with your weapon.

2) Some type of deterrent like pepper spray to create some distance so you can react with a weapon.

3) If you get caught standing and entangled, immediately inflicting severe, disabling pain and create distance to draw your weapon. The only ways that seem reliable are eye gouge, throat chop, or attacking the groin.

4) If you get caught on the ground with a young, enraged attacker on top of you, you're in trouble. Your best hope is to pull a George Zimmerman, but it's going to be a challenge.

I'm not sure any of those things require any special skills or specific BJJ/MMA training.

Us old guys have sort of a limited number of physical tools in our tool bag. You talk quite a bit about all your experience evaluating and practicing these types of attacks. How about providing some very specific suggestions that you've found fit the "old guy" paradigm.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:43 AM
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Based on available statistics as well as common sense, the most likely scenario in which I would need to defend myself using a firearm will be at contact distances out to a few yards. In an extreme close-quarter scenario, the enclosed hammer revolver is simply more efficient. That's pretty much the case with everyone with perhaps very rare exceptions.

You could argue that everyone is in different circumstances, but where is the proof? Where in this country are people at high risk of getting into a ranged gunfight at all, let alone with multiple armed assailants? In contrast, the chance of contact distance or very close-quarter violence is relatively high and most of us will experience it some point in our lives.
I agree but ignoring the smaller % of situations where you will need more than 5-6rds seems short sighted when there is little to no downside carrying say a g26 as I usually do. Fwiw, failures in a sim gun are not the same as failures in a gun with live ammo.
You ate right, most of us over 50 are not practicing rolling on a mat with 20y olds. We are supposed to be wiser as we get older. Like work, its fighting smarter not harder as we get older.
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:29 AM
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Bereau of Justice Statistics, FBI UCR tables, numerous articles, common sense. There are also multiple studies and stats on civilian defense shootings by Claude Werner, Tom Givens, Ed Lovette, John Correia to name a few.

They are not hard to find.
Then cite the ones that pertain to your claim, because it is not true. The stats show that MOST people will not be victims of violence. The truth is the odds are very low. Claims you made without citation do not do well for one's credibility.

As far as 5 shot snubbies, I have full confidence in them for myself. But I never ever NEVER suggest what anybody else should carry. And I certainly would not invent reasons why they should do what I tell them to do. For one they would justifiably tell me to mind my own business.

If the law supports what a person carries, and it is what they want to carry, then it is up to them. If they feel the need for a Glock 17 with a 50 round drum I will still give them a thumbs up. Now if they tell me that is what I need, they need not waste their time.

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Old 06-26-2018, 12:06 PM
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...Consider using .38 Special +P SJHP or SWCHP (the "FBI load"). Over penetration potential of the .357 mag concerns me. If I can defend myself just as effectively with .38 +P, without risking having to explain in court, why I chose .357 mag. if my bullet goes through my target and injures an innocent.
Just curious, but in that case aren't you concerned that you would have to make the same kind of explanation of your use of +P rounds? What if you have to shoot some skinny meth-head and a round goes all the way through him?
Just sayin'...
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:14 PM
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Just curious, but in that case aren't you concerned that you would have to make the same kind of explanation of your use of +P rounds? What if you have to shoot some skinny meth-head and a round goes all the way through him?
Just sayin'...
Depending on bullet design there are times when higher velocity has less penetration than lower velocity. 357 soft points would penetrate less than 38spl soft points. Then their is the possibility that a bullet that goes through 12 inches of mass is going be non lethal once it exits. There have been very few cases of people injured by bullets that have excited center mass. Most innocent bystanders injured have been from shots that did not connect.

IMO the best method to prevent innocent bystanders being killed, or severely injured is being better shooters.

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Old 06-26-2018, 12:20 PM
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Then cite the ones that pertain to your claim, because it is not true. The stats show that MOST people will not be victims of violence. The truth is the odds are very low. Claims you made without citation do not do well for one's credibility.

As far as 5 shot snubbies, I have full confidence in them for myself. But I never ever NEVER suggest what anybody else should carry. And I certainly would not invent reasons why they should do what I tell them to do. For one they would justifiably tell me to mind my own business.

If the law supports what a person carries, and it is what they want to carry, then it is up to them. If they feel the need for a Glock 17 with a 50 round drum I will still give them a thumbs up. Now if they tell me that is what I need, they need not waste their time.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/llv.pdf

FBI — Expanded Offense

https://tacticalprofessor.files.word...r-w-tables.pdf

The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings

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Old 06-26-2018, 12:25 PM
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3" 686 plus in the nightstand, flock 19 for carry.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:35 PM
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I go to the cabin for 5 days....... and I come back to this!!!!!!

A topic never before covered in its own thread.....................



Carry what you like and can shoot well...... the odds of you ever having to discharge your firearm in self defense are ....slim to none. That said carry one..... odds are you won''t need your life vest if you go boating...... or your fire extinguisher if you use your fire place. But all are good thing to have and know how to use...............................................also carry a good pocket knife and a AAA or AA single cell flashlight both will get more use than your handgun.

If you think there will be trouble where you are going ....... don't go;stay home and browse the S&W Forum!!!

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Old 06-26-2018, 12:43 PM
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Everything is lumped together in those claims. A person that gets in dozens of incedents throws off the actual stats. None of those were taken by census, the only true way to tell who have been a victim of crime. A LEO may have hundreds of incidents over their life, that does not relate to law abiding citizens that do not live in high crime locations. Domestic violence also factors in, the same people are involved over, and over again. A person that reports abuse once a month over years does not relate to law abiding citizens in non violent relationships.

Another example is the rate of divorces. I have been divorced twice, that certainly is going to throw off the results over the total population. They take the number of divorces and average that to the total. But not taken into account is people who have had multiple divorces.

I certainly have not seen reports on the forums like this one that everybody will be a victim of a crime. Even at best the stats do not show that most people will be victims. If true that it is only a one time incident for each person then that would be less than half.
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:34 PM
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Just curious, but in that case aren't you concerned that you would have to make the same kind of explanation of your use of +P rounds? What if you have to shoot some skinny meth-head and a round goes all the way through him?
Just sayin'...
Yeah kind of a ridiculous concern. A 38sp with solids will likely over penetrate. If it is fed a jhp factory round, go to go. If you feed it handloads, you might want a good reason in the back of your mind.
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Old 06-26-2018, 01:53 PM
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Everything is lumped together in those claims. A person that gets in dozens of incedents throws off the actual stats. None of those were taken by census, the only true way to tell who have been a victim of crime. A LEO may have hundreds of incidents over their life, that does not relate to law abiding citizens that do not live in high crime locations. Domestic violence also factors in, the same people are involved over, and over again. A person that reports abuse once a month over years does not relate to law abiding citizens in non violent relationships.

Another example is the rate of divorces. I have been divorced twice, that certainly is going to throw off the results over the total population. They take the number of divorces and average that to the total. But not taken into account is people who have had multiple divorces.

I certainly have not seen reports on the forums like this one that everybody will be a victim of a crime. Even at best the stats do not show that most people will be victims. If true that it is only a one time incident for each person then that would be less than half.
Mostly a true statement BUT, consider all the violent crime that happens, & much of it being location drive, it is not unlikely that you or I may be a victim of some violent crime in our lives. Unless you stay @ home in a nice city, if you travel you are more likely putting yourself in harms way just by doing that.
I live in a nice large town, but it is near not so nice large city like LA or SanBernadino. I have to travel thru those areas monthly so being armed in the road is generally a good idea.
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:21 PM
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"Revolver vs. Pistol"

There will never be general agreement on this topic, because it is a matter of personality. That is why I carry both.
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:26 PM
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Mostly a true statement BUT, consider all the violent crime that happens, & much of it being location drive, it is not unlikely that you or I may be a victim of some violent crime in our lives. Unless you stay @ home in a nice city, if you travel you are more likely putting yourself in harms way just by doing that.
I live in a nice large town, but it is near not so nice large city like LA or SanBernadino. I have to travel thru those areas monthly so being armed in the road is generally a good idea.
I didn't say that being armed was a bad idea, but the claim that most citizens will be victims of violent crime is BS even by the articles provided. Truth is most married people will not get divorced, although many do. Some like me will be divorced several times.

Now the statistics about cheating are closer because they are compiled not from lump data, but actual interviews/polls with couples. Even then most couples do not cheat by those interviews, unless they are being less than truthful.
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Old 06-26-2018, 03:54 PM
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Everything is lumped together in those claims. A person that gets in dozens of incedents throws off the actual stats. None of those were taken by census, the only true way to tell who have been a victim of crime. A LEO may have hundreds of incidents over their life, that does not relate to law abiding citizens that do not live in high crime locations. Domestic violence also factors in, the same people are involved over, and over again. A person that reports abuse once a month over years does not relate to law abiding citizens in non violent relationships.

Another example is the rate of divorces. I have been divorced twice, that certainly is going to throw off the results over the total population. They take the number of divorces and average that to the total. But not taken into account is people who have had multiple divorces.

I certainly have not seen reports on the forums like this one that everybody will be a victim of a crime. Even at best the stats do not show that most people will be victims. If true that it is only a one time incident for each person then that would be less than half.
I don’t always agree with Mr. X, but in the reports he posted, the first study split out the lifetime likelihood of only experiencing a single violent attack, two violent attacks, three violent attacks, etc. It broke those down by decade of age, by race, and by sex (IIRC).

The numbers seem too high to me. In the report, there’s an 80+% likelihood of a 12 year old experiencing a violent attacked in their lifetime. Just my ad-hoc observation, that would seem to be more like 15%. Still too high.
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Old 06-26-2018, 04:38 PM
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I don’t always agree with Mr. X, but in the reports he posted, the first study split out the lifetime likelihood of only experiencing a single violent attack, two violent attacks, three violent attacks, etc. It broke those down by decade of age, by race, and by sex (IIRC).

The numbers seem too high to me. In the report, there’s an 80+% likelihood of a 12 year old experiencing a violent attacked in their lifetime. Just my ad-hoc observation, that would seem to be more like 15%. Still too high.
They are taking base numbers from crime reports. Crime reports are not broken down to individuals by the FBI. They are by numbers per 100,000. Take a group of 99 people, and one LEO all in the same age group. That LEO probably makes several arrests for being assaulted in a period of time, likely 100 over several years. That means the 99 probably did not have any assaults.

Without detailed record keeping like is done on the level of perfection that takes into account all variables polls, and statistics are only as good as they are taken. This has been proven over, and over again with failures by relying completely on them. The drug industry has seen drugs approved after vigorous testing only later to be pulled.

FBI stats are not based on individuals, it is based on crimes reported compared to census data. Want good data that cannot be skewed by false positives, look at cause of death data. A person only dies once so multiple deaths per person is impossible. And that data shows that doctors are more dangerous to the public than the common criminal.

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Old 06-26-2018, 10:58 PM
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That's still pretty broad. IMO, unless you're in the .001% of the over 60 crowd that's still rolling on the mat, your chances of success in an entangled fight with a 20 year old criminal are pretty much nil.
The chances of success for anyone at any age drop dramatically once things go to the ground.


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From my perspective, I think that only gives you four options...

1) Up your SA game. If possible, keep your distance and react first with your weapon.
This should be the goal of everyone. Distance is your friend.

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2) Some type of deterrent like pepper spray to create some distance so you can react with a weapon.
If you can get to your pepper spray, why didn't you just get the gun?

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3) If you get caught standing and entangled,...

4) If you get caught on the ground with a [age irrelevant], enraged attacker on top of you, you're in trouble.
These two are really the same. If you get "caught" in a fist fight, there's a 99% chance you'll end up on the ground.

Again, age is irrelevant. Any type of empty hand training is good. Most martial schools will help you learn to your own ability and stamina. I've never heard of a school that would turn away a student because they were too old. Generally, if you can walk in under your own power, any martial school worth their salt can help you become better with empty hand defense.

Now, let's be realistic here, size, strength, ability, speed, stamina all matter. My neighbor is 95 and has difficulty walking to the mailbox that's just across the street. If he is attacked, he has no chance. Even so, there are things he can learn if he wants to. No on can learn if they don't want to.


So let me put it back in your court. Is there some specific ailment or perceived weakness you want to overcome? Some specific attack that you find most concerning? Maybe we can direct your efforts to a type of self study that will help you in these areas.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:08 AM
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...
So let me put it back in your court. Is there some specific ailment or perceived weakness you want to overcome? Some specific attack that you find most concerning? Maybe we can direct your efforts to a type of self study that will help you in these areas.
Interesting input, but I was making a different point, specifically to Mr. X.

He frequently makes two recommendations. 1) BJJ. 2) ECQC classes like Craig Douglas’s. I don’t think either of those are practical solutions for the over 60 crowd. Working backwards ...

Seen the videos from of Southnarc’s training classes. Not sure many people in my age demographic (mid-60’s) and older, even healthy ones, can sustain the level of physical contact in the Southnarc ECQC class just for training.

I’d say something similar about BJJ. To get a self defense benefit from BJJ, not just a fitness benefit, you gotta agressively roll. From the people I’m around in the over 60 demographic, they’re not going to do that without getting injured in training.

IMO, if you’re in the SSN crowd, you’re not going to be able to defend yourself for any length of time in a deadly hands-on attack from a 20 year old professional criminal. You have to be able to disengage very fast. You need to be able to hit first if possible, and when you hit, hit in a way that disables the BG bad enough to give yourself at least a couple seconds margin to either access your weapon or escape. Things like deep eye gouges and throat chops. Not seeing those practiced in the Southnarc videos or BJJ. Sort of dangerous for training, right?

Mister X frequently posts about the 1,000’s of attack videos he’s analyzed and the years of experience he has teaching ECQC. I’m not doubting him, but since he’s the one that keeps bringing it up, I’d just like him to share his wisdom as it relates to functional solutions for the over 60 crowd.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:45 AM
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I have studied a half dozen or so martial arts over my life time and was the oldest person ( 70 ) to earn a black belt in the most recent style that I studied. I agree that it is more complicated for older people to defend against younger and stronger attackers. Part of my black belt test was to spar against a 265# Marine iron worker so I know it can be done.

There are some advantages to looking old and decrepit. The attackers don't expect that you will be able to defend yourself. Also it confuses them if you smile at them just before cutting loose.

A couple of techniques that are quite effective for older and for that matter very young defenders include a variety of low kicks from the knee on down coupled with stomps to the opponents instep. Knees break very easily when kicked from the side. Another surprisingly effective move is to forcefully shove fingers up the nose and twist. No matter how big and strong they are they will spin like a top as you hot foot it away.

And lets not overlook some simple and effective " cane fu " techniques .

Find a school the specializes in these techniques for older people. You are not training for MMA competition.

You've got nothing to lose. Why not go down fighting.

Do not go gentle into that good night.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:08 AM
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One thing I would suggest is that Rolling On The Ground 101, along with Advanced Glock 19 and AR/Plate Carrier Basics just aren't practically available to most folks.

Most folks really can't spare a weekend to travel away from home to take a class. Even fewer can justify the various costs--money, time, burdening their spouse for however long it takes, and so on. Sure, you can enroll in a local Jiu-Jitsu class, but how many instructors are interested in or qualified to teach fighting, as opposed to advancing the art form or a bit of fun exercise? And more importantly, as an uninitiated beginner, how are you supposed to tell the difference?

And even if everybody could afford to make it to one of these CCW Mini-Vacays--how many class spots are available, versus the number of gun carriers?

Learning to fight is good, no doubt about that (although I feel it's more useful as an alternative to deadly force, than as a wrastlin'-wit'-guns thing). But I think that lashing out against the people that don't is misplaced. I think I've mentioned this before--some gun folks use training as chips to attack and degrade other gun folks.

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Old 06-27-2018, 09:36 AM
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I remember being a young kid in high school watching the film, 'U.S. Marshalls' in the theater. When Tommy Lee Jones told Robert Downy Jr. to 'Get yourself a Glock, and get rid of that nickle plated sissy pistol', I knew that I had to get myself a Glock when I grew up. A Glock .40, too.

Now that I've grown up, I've only owned one Glock, and I don't own one now. Many of my guns are 'nickle-plated sissy pistols' (well, not nickle, but various stainless guns).
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:52 AM
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I drive with an average of 1/3 of a tank of gas in my car.
It gets me where I need to go, and statistics show that most of the time I drive only 15 miles from my home.

I fill up more often, so that keeps the gas in my tank fresh. I don’t worry about running out of gas because the chance that I would have to suddenly drive a long distance in a hurry and not have gas available is very remote.

Besides, I drive a hybrid to save the environment and me cash because I can get free refills at a few places around town.

Living my life prepared for worst case scenarios just adds too much pressure to how I live my average life. I ain’t doin it. Show me the statistics that I’m wrong.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
I didn't say that being armed was a bad idea, but the claim that most citizens will be victims of violent crime is BS even by the articles provided. Truth is most married people will not get divorced, although many do. Some like me will be divorced several times.

Now the statistics about cheating are closer because they are compiled not from lump data, but actual interviews/polls with couples. Even then most couples do not cheat by those interviews, unless they are being less than truthful.
Again, mostly tue, but murder victims, just one time victim. Most rape victims, just once. Your proximity to crime is almost 99% location driven. BUT be in that 1% location, wrong place, wrong time, then you need your gun, you just wont know of its 5 or 15. I am sure the victims in the texas church thought it would never happen.
I have No issue with what anyone carries, just their reasoning behind their choice. Just say I like to train/practice soft & my gun choice is part of that. At least its 100% honest?? If all I had was a 5 shot j frame, I would certainly carry it along with a reload. Fortunately that is not my only choice.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:15 AM
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I carry my full size M&P9 Pro on- and off duty, hot/cold/windy/rainy don't matter, don't care. Do I have smaller guns? Yes. But I'm not trusting them with my life. My 9mm M&P? All day, every day.


Revolver vs. Pistol-31957506_1181032245372006_1254153716269842432_n-jpg


Bottom line, like others have already said, carry what you are most comfortable and proficient with. Use a good belt/holster and it won't bother you. Or at least not as much.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:40 AM
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Now where is that dead horse. I want my turn at beating on it.

I used to carry a 627 for work and still carry it off duty. Powers that be made me carry semi on duty. It is the 2 5/8 barrel. Never felt that I would have been out gunned. Moon clips are the great equalizer. I was keeping up with the semi autos on the range as far as reloads went. I could carry 4 moon clips on my belt. For those that are doing the math that would be a total of 40 rounds of 357 luv. I was initially carrying the Corbon Barnes X bullet loads but went cheaper to the 140 gr Federal Barnes loads.

Having said that, carry what you are comfortable with. Don't try to learn a new trick unless you have the time and the need. Lastly, I have always said it is all about location, location, location. It would be nice to hit someone with a 460 or 500 5 times all over but, would rather rely on hitting someone once in the heart with a 22. A little of an exaggeration but you get my point...............I hope.
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:06 PM
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The "shot placement is king" thing is so over done. Why every LEA teaches COM hits, because the avg shooter can deliver true accuracy in a combat situation. A 22lr in the heart is likely fatal but the guy can kill you long before he dies. So we use bigger calibers & multiple hits to stop an attack sooner than later. The bad guy needs one lucky shot to your CNS for you to lose the fight, just one. Bigger guys have lots of nonvital area to put bullets into, so having more before a reload is always better than having less.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haywood View Post
I’ve always liked Revolvers best. When it came time for CCW I tried several semi-Autos but always went back to Revolvers. I like having a gun I can shove against someone without worry of moving the slide out of lockup causing the gun not to fire. I also don’t want to worry about the slide being blocked by me or an object turning the gun into a single shot. Also if I don’t have a good grip on a semi-Auto during a attack it could cause a malfunction. I am just more comfortable and confident with a Revolver. I like Snubs. I shoot them well. They are not for everyone.
You do realize that revos have sim malfunction issues as pistols right? Clothing can cause a cyl to to not rotate. A hand placed over the cyl will prevent it from firing at all where a semi will get at least one round off. Any malf will put a revo out of order. Many malfs in a semi can be cleared with a malf drill. Again, I don't care what anyone carries, but your reasons should be well thought out.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:46 PM
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Wow! My post took on a pretty wild ride.
It started with a simple question & evolved into
Huge gun battles, martial arts, etc.
Up until 3.5 yrs. ago I only carried a revolver.
Then I got caught up in “did I have enough
rounds just in case”! So I asked my wife’s
baby brother(special forces) what he carried
& he said Glock 19. So off I went & bought a
G19 gen 4. I expected to shoot better & I did.
The G19 was ok to carry but I wanted something
smaller & bought the G43. A little more
difficult for me to shoot, but with a lot of practice
I became proficient. Only have a couple of jams
with the G43 but that was my fault & quickly
Fixed that. Now back to my post. I carry
My revolver, one a S&W 686 + 3” or
A 2” vindicator both in 357 in magnum
Most of the time & occasionally just because I feel like it I carry
One of my Glocks. I’m not worried about a gun
battle with a gang of attackers. I just want to
be prepared because there seems to me to
be more idiots & bad guys carrying who don’t
Seem to care about using violence for almost
any reasons just because & you can fill in
the blanks. In all of my years carrying, I
Only drew my revolver out once & that was in 1972
When I was on the force. But I’m very glad that
I have a choice to carry either revolver or
A Pistol.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Interesting input, but I was making a different point, specifically to Mr. X.
Noted.

Even so, I'd like to comment on this a little more...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Not sure many people in my age demographic (mid-60’s) and older, even healthy ones, can sustain the level of physical contact in the Southnarc ECQC class just for training.
Self-defense is not just about having a gun. In my opinion, claiming that you can only defend yourself with a gun because you don't have the physical strength is not being realistic. Like I said, size, strength, stamina all matter. No one expects a new student, regardless of age, to walk in and be able to roll on day one. You have to build up to it.

Meet Chuck Sullivan:


He's 86 years old and still one of the most dangerous people on the planet. He's never been in a street fight, but his extensive training in Chinese Kenpo has kept him aware and able to avoid any issues to date. If he can be this active at 86, any of us can get more physically fit.

Like I said before, if you can walk under your own power, we can get you to a point where you can effectively defend yourself. Yes, it will take work and most aren't willing to put in the time and effort.

Your thinking is not wrong. The two most effective strikes in self-defense are a punch/ridge hand/knuckle strike to the throat or a strike to the groin. Don't underestimate the value of these two strikes. Fighting fair or following any "gentleman's" rules is for victims. This is potentially a life and death situation. Use what you have.

Self-defense is not about going toe to toe in a cage for 20 minutes. It's about delivering the most damage you can, as quickly as you can and disengaging in 10 seconds or less.
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