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  #101  
Old 06-28-2018, 01:29 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is online now
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
... your post....
I'm not disagreeing with you so much as maybe coming from a different perspective.

I've been incredibly fortunate in terms of health. I'm in pretty good physical condition. I work out regularly. I'm not the guy that's in top condition in the over 60 crowd, but I suspect I'm above average. That's not unique, but from what I see, it's also not the norm. Bad knees, bad hips, bad backs, blown discs, blood thinners, early stage COPD, and brittle bones are the norm. Not too far further down that age funnel, heart problems and pacemakers are pretty common too. Some of it is from hard work and overuse. Some is from poor habits. Those things can make working on the mat nearly impossible.

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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Self-defense is not just about having a gun.
I agree. I'd say it's more likely a BG will go hands on with an older person because they perceive them as more vulnerable.

Because I've been fortunate with my health, I have had the opportunity to take multiple force-on-force classes in the last few years. They've run the gambit from simunitions, to airsoft, to using blue guns on the mat and then live fire practice for things like retention shooting.

What I found is, even in reasonably good condition for my age, on the mat I'm not able to last long against 30'ish year old SWAT officers. I can project that out and say it would probably be similar for me against an athletic 20 year old criminal sociopath. That means I need to strike first and do something quickly to inflict a lot of pain to create enough separation to access my weapon.

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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Like I said before, if you can walk under your own power, we can get you to a point where you can effectively defend yourself.
I agree with that, but I think that's different than knocking around old guys with physical issues on the mat.

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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
Meet Chuck Sullivan:
...
If he can be this active at 86, any of us can get more physically fit.
Absolutely, but being fit isn't the same as wrestling on the mat with a bad hip or a pacemaker.

I do like the idea 7shooter had about fingers in nose to create pain.

Good discussion. I'll stop beating a dead horse.
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  #102  
Old 06-28-2018, 03:06 PM
mpc mpc is offline
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I will take the one I feel comfortable and familiar with
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  #103  
Old 06-28-2018, 05:51 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
IMO, the .380 is much better than nothing, but you could do better. It's not just the round, it the shot placement and your ability to hit you target under stress. I had a .380 semi-auto for a few years, but the more I learned (and saw), the less confidence I had in the .380 as an effective EDC. If my opponent has a gun and is trying to kill me, I don't want a .380. I want a heavy bullet at least 158 gr and preferably 180-230 gr. Consider either a .38 special +P or a compact .45 ACP. The bigger the hole (wound cavity), the more bleeding and the faster the target is incapacitated.
I appreciate your suggestions and concern, but for the time being, I'm satisfied with my current EDC. Perhaps someday I'll replace it with something more potent like .357, .40, or .45, but for right now I'll stick with .380 ACP.
If I want comparable performance to .38 Special +P, then I could buy some of the so-called .380 ACP +Ps by Buffalo Bore/Cor-Bon which boosts the performance to be more in line with .38 Special +P/9x18 Makarov. (Which are safe to fire from a PPK/S since the thing is built like a tank.)
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  #104  
Old 06-28-2018, 09:02 PM
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Rastoff Rastoff is offline
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Ziggy2525,
I didn't think you were disagreeing with me. This is just a subject that is near to my hear so I talk about it. What we're writing here is not just for us, but many who might read this too.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Absolutely, but being fit isn't the same as wrestling on the mat with a bad hip or a pacemaker.
Absolutely! I think that one reason most people avoid working/learning some empty hand skills is that they don't want to get down on the mat. As you know though, self-defense is far more than that. As I said before, if you're on the ground, things have already gone badly. Let's try to avoid going to the ground at all.

Then add bad joints, brittle bones, atrophied muscles, weak heart, etc., and you have a recipe for being a victim. Everyone with any kind of ailment like these needs to tailor their defensive technique to their ability. Maybe you don't need a cane, but carrying one isn't a bad idea. That's just one thought. However, don't stop there. Get some training with whatever tool you're carrying.


There is no dead horse here. We can't talk too much about self-defense and various techniques for same. The more we talk, the more scenarios we dream up, the better prepared we are for the unknown.
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  #105  
Old 06-28-2018, 09:42 PM
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I haven't actually carried a full size .357 Magnum in 20 years. I carry a revolving pistol, aka M642 about 90% of the time. A M638 or a 2" 64 the rest of the time. I do still have a couple of Glocks (19 & 26) I shoot regularly and carry very rarely. The 357 in a snubby is just too much.

Pet peeve: The term "Pistol" has been around longer than both revolvers and autos. A single shot flint lock is a pistol. The Colt's Dragoon of Civil War fame was commonly called a Horse Pistol. So, though we rarely call revolvers pistols, they are indeed pistols. Revolver Vs Auto pistol would make more sense. Rant over..
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  #106  
Old 06-28-2018, 10:08 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is online now
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...
There is no dead horse here. We can't talk too much about self-defense and various techniques for same. The more we talk, the more scenarios we dream up, the better prepared we are for the unknown.
OK, so hereís a specific example where I get frustrated with this. If I go to a ďself defenseĒ school and want to work on back work, they want to work on a reversal out from under a mount. That may work well for a 20 year old in a fist fight, not for a 60+ year old fighting for their life. But not because of the physical part lf it.

If a teen age thug is on top of a 60 year old or older person, pummeling them, thatís a deadly force attack. Deadly because of the danger from the pummeling, but also deadly because the BG likely has a second getting ready to kick you in the head. If Iím on the ground, on my back, in a deadly force attack, I donít want to do a reversal. I want to draw and fire my pistol from from that bottom position. Not many self defense dojoís practicing that. At least around here.
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  #107  
Old 06-29-2018, 06:44 PM
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If Iím on the ground, on my back, in a deadly force attack, I donít want to do a reversal. I want to draw and fire my pistol from from that bottom position. Not many self defense dojoís practicing that. At least around here.
Good scenario and definitely not straight out of left field; this could really happen.

Let's start from the top. I believe I said before that if you find yourself on the ground, something has already gone wrong in your defense technique. The ground is hard and we want to avoid it at all costs. If you came to my school with this scenario, we would spend 80% of the time talking about avoiding the ground. Not what you want to hear, but that really is the important part.

OK, but the 20% still happens, what then? Pulling the gun is a viable option, but not the best option. It worked for Zimmerman, but could easily have gone the other way. Because you're in a grappling situation, it will be very difficult to get to your gun. If it's small of back, it's out of the question. If it's on your hip, it's likely pinned by the assailants knees. The options available are dependent on your position. There are three basic positions that fall into the category I believe you're asking about:

The guard-

In this position you are on your back and the assailant is between your legs. This particular picture is showing a closed guard. The defender has his feet crossed. Most people without training will have an open guard meaning their feet are not crossed.

Half guard-

In this position you have one of the assailant's legs between your legs.

The mount-

Here the assailant is literally sitting on top of you. He is sitting on your hips or stomach.

If you have him in the guard or half guard, you may have access to your gun. If you're mounted, it's very unlikely that you can even get to your gun. If you can get to your gun, is that the best idea? Maybe, but it presents some serious problems. Because you're locked in battle here, it's difficult to control the gun. You could shoot the bad guy, you could shoot yourself and the worst would be for him to get the gun.

What we teach in my school is not a reversal, but escape. I want this guy off and me back on my feet as soon as possible. Do everything you can to create space. Then get the gun out.

There is a problem with carrying any kind of tool (weapon), we focus too much on that tool. When people carry a gun, most of the time, that's their first option when it should be the last. Whenever there is a tool involved, the user's concentration is on the tool so much, they forget that they have hands and feet they can also use. If we spent even a little time working on using the tools God gave us, it would open a world of options.

I didn't miss what you asked. You want instruction on how to get your gun out when on the ground. The reason this isn't taught in any martial arts school is because they're teaching you to use the most readily available tools, the ones you're born with, first.

This is why I talk about empty hand defense so much and why I never use the word "weapon" when describing my gun; I am the weapon. The gun/baton/knife/flashlight is just a tool, an extension of me. It's a mindset. By thinking of yourself as the weapon, you come to the realization that you're never without some kind of defense.

None of what I've said here directly answers your question. I'm sorry, but this scenario is too difficult for me to answer by typing. I don't know where you live, but you're welcome to come to our school and we can work on exactly this. Alas, I'll bet you live in another state. Even so, if you want to make the trip, I'll make it worthwhile.
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  #108  
Old 06-29-2018, 06:53 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
. If Iím on the ground, on my back, in a deadly force attack, I donít want to do a reversal. I want to draw and fire my pistol from from that bottom position. Not many self defense dojoís practicing that. At least around here.
I'm pretty sure that is called the "Zimmerman" move.
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  #109  
Old 06-29-2018, 06:54 PM
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Thumbs down HUH?

Why does this thread FAIL to update? Seven times I come here and the SAME thread count pops ups up, and I have to re-read all the same posts, even though they are marked "new".

Please fix. Thank you.
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  #110  
Old 06-30-2018, 03:42 PM
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Interesting. You're the first I've heard of that has had more issues, of any kind, than semi-autos. I have a few revolvers and none have ever failed in any way. Can't say that for the semi-autos. Of course I don't have as many rounds through the revolvers. Maybe I should step up my revolver game?
My Beretta PX 4 Sub Compact has over 3600 rounds thru it with out any misfires it has gone bang every time I've pulled the trigger and the bullet has hit the target !! As have the following ..

My S&W Compact in 40 has over 2000 thru it with out a misfire

Sig P229 Legion in 40 just 800 and no misfires ..

Sig P238 490 rounds with out a misfire ..

Quality autos seem to have much less problems then cheaper manufactures if properly lubed and normal maintenance is done per round counts ..
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  #111  
Old 07-10-2018, 03:39 PM
Doc Holliday 1950 Doc Holliday 1950 is offline
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Many thanks to evryone for their responses to my post. I am no novice nor am I "the Pro From Dover", I'm like many who enjoy shooting & I'm not a collector. Your depth of experience & knowledge is refreshing & there are quite a few super responses that we, the non pros, appreciate.
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  #112  
Old 07-10-2018, 03:47 PM
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The average age of guns that may be in my pocket exceeds the average age of the Mall Ninjas contributing to this thread. Additionally, more than one of them have actually been drawn and fired at assailants. No one, save for the assailants, has ever been harmed, robbed, struck, stuck, shot, etc.

I'll continue to rely on .38 special snubs - works for me.

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  #113  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:32 PM
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Drove halfway across the state today because my wife has a medical procedure tomorrow. Wore my 4 inch, pinned and recessed, S&W Model 65-1 under my Hawaiian shirt strongside and my Model 642-2 weakside. My 2 inch Model 12-2 rode in the armrest in the event my wife needed it.

After retiring from the Army, I carried a CZ-75 for a while, then a Glock 23. Loved the CZ, the Glock was "meh." My wife can't get past the ejecting brass in her line of sight from semiautos. I started carrying nothing but revolvers and haven't looked back. My officers almost all carry Glock 22s, but they have yet to shoot a higher score than the old man with his wheel guns. (I carry a 4 inch S&W 686-6 on duty until I retire next month.)

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