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Old 06-23-2018, 07:47 AM
grover99 grover99 is offline
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Default Too easy to use?

Last week two Wyandotte County Kansas deputies were killed when an inmate they were transporting to court got ahold of one of their guns. Odds are it was a Glock. So all the inmate had to do was pull the trigger. I feel that officers should be trained on and use a weapon that has at the least a safety. Something that would slow the basic scumbag down when he tried to use the weapon. I know that some people here do not like a safety on a carry gun but that is not what we are talking about here. With training a police officer can use a gun with a safety as well as one without. That is my thoughts on this and I could be wrong [not the first time] What do you all think?
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Old 06-23-2018, 07:56 AM
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I wonder what type holster they had. A lot of Officers that worked for the City I worked in had some sort of safety device that you had to push while drawing.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:04 AM
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First, the your argument is to simplistic since we know nothing.

1. Criminals train in prison to fight, disarm and kill LEO.

2. What type of retension holsters did they have?

3. Did they go lax in their SA (situational awareness)?

4. Was the prisoner properly secured?

To many questions and no answers, yet. It's going to be more than just safety vs no safety.

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Old 06-23-2018, 08:33 AM
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Complacency is more deadly than any bullet.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:41 AM
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We had a deputy killed in a similar fashion in the ‘80s and I hate to say it, but he was not being as careful as he should have been. He allowed a prisoner to get too close to his revolver (no security holsters then) and lost his life as a result. We chased the suspect a short distance and captured him w/o much of a fight. He was executed for the killing of an LEO 10 years later. Cops & deputies take calculated risks but MUST be aware of their surroundings AND follow their training.
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Old 06-23-2018, 08:50 AM
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Default IMO THE GUN WASN'T THE PROBLEM.

You can't blame this one on Glock. Kodiak touched on some key elements.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:54 AM
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No one could blame just one thing for this out come. Plus Glocks are not the only aim and shoot guns out there. Revolvers work the same way just pull the trigger. A number of things went wrong and I am sure that a lot of discussions will go on about how to not ever have it happen again. My son has been a cop for 20 years and these things hit close to home for me.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:06 AM
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Do not use this as an excuse to blame the gun. Even when you handcuff a prisoner behind his back, there is a period when he is free from the cuffs before recuffing. No matter what your training or how adept you are at unarmed self defense, this can happen. The deputies may have done almost everything right and still be overpowered.
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by grover99 View Post
I know that some people here do not like a safety on a carry gun but that is not what we are talking about here. ...What do you all think?
The cops have rules, policies, and practices that are constantly evolving based on any number of things like funding, lessons learned, training, etc.

The folks responsible in the chain of authority will review the event and make changes, apply any necessary disciplinary measures, and go back to work.

I don't transport prisoners, make arrests, or grapple with outlaws, thus nothing about this event has any application to me as a private citizen carrying for self defense. Not sure what the discussion is about here.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:13 AM
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Default YEAH, IT DOES.

"I don't transport prisoners, make arrests, or grapple with outlaws, thus nothing about this event has any application to me as a private citizen carrying for self defense. Not sure what the discussion is about here".[/QUOTE]

IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:15 AM
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IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.
^^^^This, and as stated earlier, complacency kills.

Expect the unexpected. Stay alert, stay alive.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:44 AM
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IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.
Anything is a possibility; that really says nothing at all.

There is a possibility I could get hit in the head with a falling flowerpot, yet I don't go about my daily business wearing a hardhat. Conversely, If I am in an area where the likelihood of things falling is greater, I do (and am often required to) wear a hardhat.

Police officers and prison guards have a significantly higher risk of having their sidearm taken while performing their duties, and thus are often required to have higher level retention. I do not perform those duties, so a level 1 holster is sufficient.

So again, as a private citizen there isn't any take-away from this incident. It will change nothing about the gun, gear, or the way I carry.
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:47 AM
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"I don't transport prisoners, make arrests, or grapple with outlaws, thus nothing about this event has any application to me as a private citizen carrying for self defense. Not sure what the discussion is about here".
IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.[/QUOTE]

That is why my definition of concealed carry is no one should realize you have a weapon unless you are frisked or go thought a magnetometer type device!

Now I realize different periods of the year and what you are carrying can change the equation some what, but my first sentence is my goal. When my son or wife has to ask me if I'm carrying, I know I'm doing right!
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:54 AM
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Default YOU DON'T NEED A HARD HAT.

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Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
Anything is a possibility; that really says nothing at all.

There is a possibility I could get hit in the head with a falling flowerpot, yet I don't go about my daily business wearing a hardhat. Conversely, If I am in an area where the likelihood of things falling is greater, I do (and am often required to) wear a hardhat.

Police officers and prison guards have a significantly higher risk of having their sidearm taken while performing their duties, and thus are often required to have higher level retention. I do not perform those duties, so a level 1 holster is sufficient.

So again, as a private citizen there isn't any take-away from this incident. It will change nothing about the gun, gear, or the way I carry.
You sound plenty hard headed already. No matter how good you think you may be, there is always someone better. Some folks JUST GOTTA learn the hard way.

Last edited by nachogrande; 06-23-2018 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.
That is why my definition of concealed carry is no one should realize you have a weapon unless you are frisked or go thought a magnetometer type device!

Now I realize different periods of the year and what you are carrying can change the equation some what, but my first sentence is my goal. When my son or wife has to ask me if I'm carrying, I know I'm doing right![/QUOTE]

You get beaned on the head from an ambush attack & are knocked cold. The mugger may have had no idea you were armed. NOW your gun belongs to him. & PLEASE don't give me the "my advanced situational awareness would prevent that 100 %" NONSENSE.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grover99 View Post
Last week two Wyandotte County Kansas deputies were killed when an inmate they were transporting to court got ahold of one of their guns. Odds are it was a Glock. So all the inmate had to do was pull the trigger. I feel that officers should be trained on and use a weapon that has at the least a safety. Something that would slow the basic scumbag down when he tried to use the weapon. I know that some people here do not like a safety on a carry gun but that is not what we are talking about here. With training a police officer can use a gun with a safety as well as one without. That is my thoughts on this and I could be wrong [not the first time] What do you all think?
Not the guns fault. In most states leo are trained in wrapon retention & required to carry in a retention style holster. A safety can be advantages in a weapon grab, but unless the person practices regularly, detrimental when they have to use their weapon in a high speed, high stress application. Dont blame the gun, its on the person carrying to be bettercthan that.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
"I don't transport prisoners, make arrests, or grapple with outlaws, thus nothing about this event has any application to me as a private citizen carrying for self defense. Not sure what the discussion is about here".
IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.[/QUOTE]

Someone cant take it if they dont know you have it. The discussion is 100% valid for a yone that carries open. If you choosexsuch a mthode, you better be using a retention holster & have at least some basic skills in weapon retention.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
That is why my definition of concealed carry is no one should realize you have a weapon unless you are frisked or go thought a magnetometer type device!

Now I realize different periods of the year and what you are carrying can change the equation some what, but my first sentence is my goal. When my son or wife has to ask me if I'm carrying, I know I'm doing right!
You get beaned on the head from an ambush attack & are knocked cold. The mugger may have had no idea you were armed. NOW your gun belongs to him. & PLEASE don't give me the "my advanced situational awareness would prevent that 100 %" NONSENSE. [/QUOTE]

Far from nonsense, with that said we all know about Murphy's law. There are times I think old Murph is a optimist! What I'm saying is the more you do or are prepared for the better the outcome PROBABLY WILL BE. Nothing is certain but try to put the odds in favor for you as much as you can!
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:43 PM
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So few facts, so many assumptions...

It's pointless to speculate over something in which so few details are present, not to mention silly to presume that the nature of the problem lies solely on a single factor like the firearm the policemen were carrying lacking a manual safety.

For all we know, the policeman could have been carrying an M&P with a manual safety and the criminal was familiar enough with firearms to switch off that safety as he was drawing it from the officer's holster without missing a beat.

On a personal note, I find it extremely distasteful how so many folks will essentially use the coffins of the dead as soapboxes to push their own biased opinions. I've come to expect such callous disrespect for the dead from the charlatans who dabble in politics who attempt to reshape the country as they see fit, but it never ceases to disgust me when people behave in such a way for no other reason to reassure themselves and others that their opinions are correct.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:48 PM
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I think 99.9% of criminals know how to click a safety off.
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Old 06-23-2018, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
Anything is a possibility; that really says nothing at all.

There is a possibility I could get hit in the head with a falling flowerpot, yet I don't go about my daily business wearing a hardhat. Conversely, If I am in an area where the likelihood of things falling is greater, I do (and am often required to) wear a hardhat.

Police officers and prison guards have a significantly higher risk of having their sidearm taken while performing their duties, and thus are often required to have higher level retention. I do not perform those duties, so a level 1 holster is sufficient.

So again, as a private citizen there isn't any take-away from this incident. It will change nothing about the gun, gear, or the way I carry.
Well said. You explained it perfectly. I don't see how people don't understand what your saying.

The chance of YOU being attacked while transporting a prisoner is very small, so that is not where your SA is.

Your chances of being attacked while walking to your car are greater so you increase your SA.

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Old 06-23-2018, 02:56 PM
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I don't have any trouble controlling my Shield or my Glocks or my 1911s, open or concealed carry. But I can't control my quote tags.
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Old 06-23-2018, 05:21 PM
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So why start your thread off immediately bashing Glock then, right ?
Obviously you think the criminals are dummies because they got caught. Actually they just got outsmarted.

Here is an interesting tidbit I picked up a few years back, the average revolving door institutionalized thug out here can make you better than most cops.
A guy got jacked a year or so ago in a Walmart bathroom for his gun, dude just followed him right in and could tell he was carrying.

Happens every single day out here.
here in Illinois no open carry but could see that possibly happening to someone open carrying or someone that wasn't aware of their surroundings .. I would never use a bathroom like that in a store where there is no privacy and where it would be very easy to be robbed .. ..

Not printing is a must here as its the law .. so most of us do an excellent job of hiding our firearm .. My wife always gives me a once over to insure I'm not printing but being retired and with my style of clothing ( Jeans and T-shirt) It would be hard to tell I had a firearm IWB ..

Agree many criminals in the hoods could make you before many cops .. they are very observant picking out the weak for being their victim ..
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Old 06-23-2018, 05:28 PM
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Agree with DirtyHarryCallahan....dumb thread that serves no good purpose
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
IF you carry, there is always a possibility it can be taken from you.

That is why my definition of concealed carry is no one should realize you have a weapon unless you are frisked or go thought a magnetometer type device!

Now I realize different periods of the year and what you are carrying can change the equation some what, but my first sentence is my goal. When my son or wife has to ask me if I'm carrying, I know I'm doing right!
The one thing I would suggest is that in a confrontation, bringing your hand to your gun without drawing it telegraphs:

(a) "I have a gun!"
(b) "It's here at my 4:30!"
(c) "It sure would be hard to draw that gun if somebody grabbed my right arm!"


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I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily--concealment makes for good retention. But just because you had concealment when you dressed that morning, doesn't mean you'll have it when you really need it.

Ultimately, however, if there's a person within arm's reach, it's not "my gun" or "your gun", it's "our gun".

Last edited by Wise_A; 06-25-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grover99 View Post
... they were transporting to court got ahold of one of their guns.

... So all the inmate had to do was pull the trigger. I feel that officers should be trained on and use a weapon that has at the least a safety. Something that would slow the basic scumbag down when he tried to use the weapon.

... With training a police officer can use a gun with a safety as well as one without. That is my thoughts on this and I could be wrong [not the first time] What do you all think?
We used to carry revolvers while transporting arrestees and inmates, you know. And that was in leather pocket or bucket holsters, or worse.

I used to transport dangerous inmates while carrying a revolver in a Hoyt break-front holster, which can quickly be accessed by someone intent on attempting to snatch a gun from a cop, especially if the thumb break becomes unsnapped (or the bottom snap becomes unsecured, which happened to one of mine, one time) ... I'd have to opine that officer safety is in the mind and training of the person wearing the gun.

Sure, nowadays we have increasing levels of enhanced security holsters available, but the holistic answer to weapon retention arguably doesn't exclusively rest in the equipment.

Your argument is one that has previously been successfully used by some LE agencies to convince manufacturers to offer duty weapons with either a manual safety or a magazine safety (disconnect), or both. Yes, they've had a goodly number of reported officer "saves".

Nowadays, however, the attraction of manual safeties (and magazine safeties) has been more or less de-emphasized, and more emphasis has been shifted to the security holsters. The latest MHS submissions have probably revised interest in manual safeties, much as they did when the 2005 JCP program was introduced (before being stopped in '06). That '05 proposed program gave us the M&P 45 w/thumb safety, and some similar options were available for a couple other gun models as a result, as well.
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Old 06-25-2018, 03:43 PM
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^^A good explanation of a bunch of stuff I didn't really want to get into.

I would also add the magazine disconnect was one of the reasons the S&W 39/59 and 3rd-gen DA/SAs and DA autos were so popular with LE agencies. But such a thing cuts both ways. While you could hit the magazine release if you were in imminent danger of being disarmed, a magazine that wasn't fully seated or a release that had been inadvertently pushed would disable your pistol unexpectedly when you really needed it.

As for manual safeties, if they're well-designed and easy to operate, ditto for when a bad guy picks one up.

Just because a guy is a criminal doesn't mean he's clueless.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:00 PM
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Over 25 years ago we had a cop killed, with his own PR24 baton.

It got taken from him and while he managed to draw his .38 and empty the cylinder while being attacked, all six rounds missed the killer.

The offender never made a statement about the incident so we do it know what happened to this day.

About the same time two cops in a town an hour from where I was stationed went to a pub fight with their .38ís on their hips (against protocols. We had crappy level 1 holsters and one of the guns got snatched. The cop had enough sense while trying to hold on to the gun to open the cylinder latch and tip the barrel up, the rounds dropped clear of the cylinder.

These days we have Level 3 retention holsters, but we are trained to carry them with the safety strap lock off, making them only level 2ís.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:42 PM
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Does anyone know what the Wyandottee County Sheriff Department issue sidearm and holster is ?
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:14 PM
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I've seen prisoners being taken in the court house here when I have had business across from there and what I've seen was waist chains and the wrists attached to the waist and transported in a van with a metal cage that is divided from the LEO's seating ..

Sadly it seems there was a major failure there in the procedures to move prisoners .. Prayers for their families !!
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Old 06-25-2018, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kodiakco View Post
I don't see how people don't understand what your saying.
I see this in many of the gun forums, where someone posts an outlier event and everyone chimes in about how they're going to change their personal safety plan to accommodate this new perceived threat.

I once asked on another forum why people were melting dimples in their glocks and was directed to a story about some guy who was involved in a no-win self defense shooting, and the blood running down his arm made his gun slippery. One event, seriously?

I read the news (prioritizing local news above out of state news), listen to the scanner, find out what's happening here where I live, and work up a safety plan that suits me. I will never handicap my ability to respond suitably to the most likely threat because I heard about some recent threat-du-jour that happened somewhere else to someone doing something I do not do.

So sure, if they feel like a more secure holster is worth the slower and possibly riskier draw, go for it. I really don't care. I can think without some internet guru. In the macro view I do not believe anyone is served by changing their strategy or tactics based on one event, especially if that event happened to someone is a career field that is not the one you're in.
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  #32  
Old 06-26-2018, 12:00 AM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
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Originally Posted by Scorpion520AZ View Post
Complacency is more deadly than any bullet.
Complacency or momentary lack of awareness .. Just takes a few seconds of being distracted by something/someone !!
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  #33  
Old 06-26-2018, 01:19 AM
gman51 gman51 is offline
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I would imagine if an inmate killed a cop with his own gun then the inmate surely knew how to use the gun. So many police forces use Glocks and I imagine many a BG knows how a Glock functions.
I think if I was a cop transporting a prisoner he would be handcuffed behind his back and the cuffs zip tied to his waist. But I have never been a cop so what do I know. Safety for the cop must be top priority.
I do believe you kill a cop you get the needle and real soon rather than sit on death row for 20 years.
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  #34  
Old 06-26-2018, 06:54 AM
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fatcat3 fatcat3 is offline
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1st: I am in no way passing judgement on these two officers as i was not there.
2nd: as a transport officer you do NOT always have the option of how an Inmate is transported. funeral, medical, court, all may have different amounts of gear. cuffs, leg irons, locking braces, soft restraints, belly chain...
3rd: as someone who works at the shipping / receiving end of inmate transports i could fill pages of this post with horror stories. I.E. a loaded shotgun that was pointed at every thing but a SAFE DIRECTION, or a Deputy Sheriff that walks in front of an unrestrained I/M with his handgun STUCK IN HIS BACK POCKET,entering the receiving of a maximum security prison.........ARE YOU bleeping HIGH OR JUST bleeping STUPID? yes you can get reprimanded for talking to a fellow professional like that.
4th: dont assume criminals are too stupid to know how to work a gun, triple retention holster, remove restraints with out a cuff key.........i/ms are just not as smart as the criminals we elect to office.

Last edited by fatcat3; 06-26-2018 at 07:07 AM.
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  #35  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:13 AM
Old cop Old cop is offline
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All LEOs become complacent after so many years on the job. I worked hard to remind those who I was responsible for about their safety. In addition I would take someone aside on the street immediately upon witnessing a safety violation to remind them of their responsibility to go home safely.
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  #36  
Old 06-26-2018, 09:13 AM
max503 max503 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
On a personal note, I find it extremely distasteful how so many folks will essentially use the coffins of the dead as soapboxes to push their own biased opinions. I've come to expect such callous disrespect for the dead from the charlatans who dabble in politics who attempt to reshape the country as they see fit, but it never ceases to disgust me when people behave in such a way for no other reason to reassure themselves and others that their opinions are correct.
Did you write this? It is an exquisite statement, but unfortunately, true.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:09 AM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Originally Posted by grover99 View Post
Last week two Wyandotte County Kansas deputies were killed when an inmate they were transporting to court got ahold of one of their guns. Odds are it was a Glock. So all the inmate had to do was pull the trigger. I feel that officers should be trained on and use a weapon that has at the least a safety. Something that would slow the basic scumbag down when he tried to use the weapon. I know that some people here do not like a safety on a carry gun but that is not what we are talking about here. With training a police officer can use a gun with a safety as well as one without. That is my thoughts on this and I could be wrong [not the first time] What do you all think?
I must have read this differently. Heís talking about police officers, not citizens carrying concealed weapons. Heís entitled to his opinion, of course. I donít see Glocks as the problem here, but thatís just my opinion. No where in his post does he suggest that concealed carriers should rethink their approach, whatever it may be. Reaction along those lines was not the subject of his inquiry.
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