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  #51  
Old 06-30-2018, 10:16 AM
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I was stationed in Maryland. I tried to get a carry license. They would not issue one for personal protection, but "if I owned a store I could get one to protect the money."
This whole rant about "what they should carry in MD" is irrelevant and borderline ignorant.
Few ordinary people in MD can carry anything legally.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:32 AM
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Classic case of gun laws meant to "make us all safe" simply leaving good people defenseless.....

Most of us know the truth about gun laws/gun free zones...all political feel good nonsense.

Prayers to the victims in MD
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by diyj98 View Post
Within shotgun range, I wouldn't want a 5 shot snub nose, 1911 45acp, 17 shot 9mm, or a 44 magnum, but any of them would be far better than nothing.
ďWithin rangeĒ is a great point! Within shotgun range Iíd want anything rather than nothing, agreed. But at the further reaches of shotgun range Iíd skip the handgun altogether and run like heck. For me as a civilian, survival is the name of the game, and the gun isnít always the best option, at least while Iím still young enough and able enough to book it.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:46 AM
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Thinking on the OP's question....of course no one wants to go against a shotgun with a snub. I think we can over think this sometimes.

In active shooter situations the evil guy chooses weapons that can kill as many as fast as possible....as the victim/defender we are only concerned about stopping the evil shooter (usually one...I know anything's possible) Having a small gun that is ALWAYS with you puts you way ahead of the unarmed person when going against a single attacker. 5 rounds of .38+p ain't that unarmed!

Sadly as stated before, some good people in some places have had that choice made for them by their government.
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Old 06-30-2018, 11:06 AM
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...nobody would have given Bella Twin any chance of surviving her encounter...

...she stayed cool...didn't panic...and put the first 22 long in his head...

...in the scenario in question...the same would have to be done...

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Old 06-30-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tlawler View Post
Maryland is a ďshall issueĒ state, albeit with slightly more restrictive laws than say, Florida. So thereís really no excuse that absolutely no one was armed except that journalists are mainly flaming liberals who all think that only police and military should be armed.
Maryland issues permits like NJ: they are may issue, which means nobody but the well connected gets one. I lived in Maryland for 5 years. No one gets to carry there except the gangsters and the police.
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
Fred, I don't pick my off-duty/retirement weapons predicated upon only facing a certain type of attacker's weapon.

The training, quals & drills I practice for use with my J-frames are the same as those used with my larger belt guns.

Comes to that, how is this any different than the earlier days of carrying a 6rd service revolver on-duty? I fully expected I might have to use that revolver against someone armed with a shotgun. As a matter of fact, I remember one night in an "active" beat where I saw a man walking down the sidewalk carrying a Mossberg pump shotgun with an extended mag tube, and the first thing I reached for was my 6rd duty revolver.

The only difference is that I realize my diminutive 5-shot snubs require more effort on my part in order to obtain practical accuracy and controllability, compared to larger pistols and revolvers.

Yes, the inherent 5rd ammo limitation probably means the smaller weapon is likely anticipated as being sufficient to use against 1-2 attackers (although I remember learning of a case where a cop effectively and successfully used one against 3 armed robbers).

Another way to look at it is when considering one of the threat targets we've often used for some training & quals, when we use those large, full color pictures of different people holding different firearms. One of them is a "threat" wearing obvious body armor over a t-shirt and holding a subgun. Yes, I've used that particular threat target when running one of my 5rd snubs for practice drills or a qual, and when wandering out and about in public I have in the back of my mind that I might run into some nutcase who would essentially fulfill this "scenario" ... even if I'm only carrying one of my J-frame snubs.

The size of the gun can introduce training and manipulation difficulties for many shooters, and even require more frequent loading (reloading) for extended drills and qual courses-of-fire ... but it's still just a handgun.

When the rubber meets the road, it's still the skillset, mindset, training and experience of the guy/gal carrying it that's likely to mean the difference.

So, yes Fred, I still anticipate that one of the real-world threats I might encounter could be a shotgun wielding nut in some public place, and I still often choose to carry one of my 5-shot snubs as a retirement weapon, even keeping this in mind. (Ditto one of my 6-shot LCP's comes to that.)

Would I rather have my own 12GA shotgun, or even a rifle, if facing a shotgun wielding nut? Of course.

It's certainly preferable to being unarmed.
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:41 PM
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Single nutter with pump 12 ga blows out window to gain access and commences fire. Pretty hard to save the 1 st victims, I am neither a cop nor a hero. Nutter stops to stuff 12 ga in the tube, unholster 642 and let go 4 shots from 25 yds. Nutter shouldn't have "collateral targets" around him (sorry, it's almost always guys) and they should be going away from shooter at that point. Perish forbid I missed all 4, fire last rd and quickly reload. Hopefully shooter down with 1 st 4, maybe last shot, and hopefully at least shooter might think I have already reloaded and hesitate until I have. I typed all of this sitting safely in the house with a bucket of guns. This message would be entirely different if'n somebody was shooting at me. Joe
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  #59  
Old 06-30-2018, 02:50 PM
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Not a 5 shot but my Beretta has 13+1 and would have shot till the threat was neutralized when was reloading .. Don't just wait to die ..

I know several that carry against the rules of their employer for exactly the reasons in this story ..
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:13 PM
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Default ANOTHER ARMCHAIR WHAT IF/ WHAT WOULD YOU DO/USE.

YEAH, BUT let's see the other fella conceal carry the shotgun. Condolences to the victims families. I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down or IF they died cowering. NO JUDGEMENTS from me.
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?

Nah - I'm good.
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  #62  
Old 06-30-2018, 03:37 PM
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Sarcasm Alert!

Don't people realize AR's, and shotguns turn bad guys into superman.

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  #63  
Old 06-30-2018, 05:30 PM
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Iím just an armchair pistolero never shot anybody never was shot at. If Iím trapped in a room and somebodyís coming after me with a shotgun my little five shot in my pocket is going to be used to the best that I could use it even when Iím crapping my pants. I donít intend to carry anything bigger or holding more rounds I carry to J frames thatís it.
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  #64  
Old 06-30-2018, 06:57 PM
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Maryland may be legally "Shall" issue, but the reality is Maryland is "we may issue, but probably not, like 99.9% not.

If you carry lots of taxable cash, they might let you protect that.

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Old 06-30-2018, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlawler View Post
Maryland is a “shall issue” state, albeit with slightly more restrictive laws than say, Florida. So there’s really no excuse that absolutely no one was armed except that journalists are mainly flaming liberals who all think that only police and military should be armed.
"Slightly" more restrictive?????
MD is a shall issue state where you need to show a specific documented cause for them to even consider issuing a permit, Maryland calls it "good and substantial reason".
There are about 17000 permit holders in a state of 6 million residents. (roughly 0.4% of the population).
Florida has 1.8 million permit holders with a population of about 20 million. (roughly 10% of the population).
The vast majority of those 17000 Maryland permits are restricted to specific places and times the permit holder can carry such as to and from the bank or a business, or after your life has specifically been threatened.
My point is, FL and MD have absolutely nothing in common as far as the issuance of permits goes. I know what I'm talking about here because I work in and live on the border of MD, I currently have a PA permit, a FL permit and I have applied for a MD permit which was returned (denied) because I didn't meet the "good and substantial reason" clause.

In practice, one stands a better chance of getting a permit in New York or CA than they do in MD.

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Old 06-30-2018, 07:03 PM
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When you go up against a shotgun with a handgun, the number of rounds you have doesn't matter for squat. You best make your mark real quick, because if he gets his muzzle on you and pulls the trigger it won't matter how many rounds your gun is holding at that point. If you don't put him down with 5, 19 isn't going to make much difference if he is moving on you. End of story.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:11 PM
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A 5 shot snub is about the best thing to carry in Maryland because of the need for DEEP DEEP concealment. Nearly impossible to get a concealed carry permit in that state. Lived there for a long time. Worked for the State of MD briefly. Glad to be in North Carolina now.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:11 PM
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If a shooter has a shotgun and I only have a 5 shot revolver I am not going to be wishing I had something bigger. If I can get a shot at the shooter while he is reloading you can bet I am going do my best to end his shooting anymore people not to mention myself. Like they say shot placement is everything and it is especially true in this case. You better make each shot be a stopper.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:15 PM
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Against an active-shooter, I’m going to escape if possible. If not an option, I’d be looking to ambush the shooter at close-range and I would actually prefer a snub in that scenario. I just don’t see engaging like you’re running an IDPA course being realistic or a good tactic even if it was.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1918a2 View Post
First rule of a gunfight. HAVE A GUN. Doesn't matter which as long as You use it properly.
In Ď74 I used my issued Colt Det. Spl. in a gunfight w/armed robbers; I went home that night and the bad guys did not. When and if the fight comes youíll be stuck w/youíre EDC so it will have to be enough.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:24 PM
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not pointed at anyone in particular but am I the only one who has issue with the term "EDC"? Speaking for myself, I have three guns that I alternately carry depending on my plans for that day or my mood, on many days I don't even carry so EDC doesn't really even apply. I do have a snubby that gets carried quite a bit but to call it an EDC would be wrong as I also have an LCP and a Glock that sometimes get carried.
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  #72  
Old 06-30-2018, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Really? So if you had a choice you would go 5 shot snub vs a 12ga?
... Incidents like this should give all of us that ccw pause & evaluate what & how we carry & how much training, practice & what our skill level is. This was not a punk mugger but stone cold killer. I doubt he would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way. He had a purpose & was going to go thru with it. These are the 1% predators that require a more serious approach to EDC imo. yes small %, but not to the 5 dead.
Fred, IMHO, a 38 snub would be a more than adequate response to a long arm, provided that the user is proficient. Do you practice much beyond the mythical 7 yard zone of engagement in the typical SD scenario? How far have you stretched a shot with your chosen SD arm? I tend to shoot NRA 2700 with a wheel gun and a 1911, and I have shot my snub at 25 and 50 yards. I can hit my target with it. I have also engaged life-size metallic silhouette targets out to 220 yards.

In my opinion, in a gunfight there is only one rule, have a gun! A gunfight is not a civil, social affair but a quest for survival. Because of that, I would engage a long arm equipped shooter with a snub nose revolver if that is all I had. I would rather die fighting than being slaughtered like a lamb!
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
No, because you miss the point entirely - the reason that I have a 5 shot snub is that it IS my edc. If I could carry a 12ga we wouldn't be discussing this.
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:00 AM
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I think when that guy stopped to reload I would be ramming my Kershaw Blur into his guts for all I was worth. I don't carry a gun, but I'm not unarmed, either.
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:35 AM
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Over 18% of the of population able to acquire a CCL in the Illinois county I live in have one .. My county is in the top ten in CCL"s in Illinois and the county just north has a slightly higher percentage .. so you never know who might be the one carrying .. and just under a quarter of them are women !!..

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Old 07-01-2018, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
A WELL PLACED SHOT OR 2, WOULD HAVE PUT THAT GUY AWAY---EVEN FROM A SNUB ! ! !

WHATEVER YOU CARRY, GET TRAINED AND PRACTICE WITH IT, UNTIL YOU CAN USE IT EFFECTIVELY.....

MASSAD AYOOB CARRIES A 5 SHOT J-FRAME. I'M CERTAIN THAT MAS, OR ANOTHER WELL TRAINED PERSON, COULD HAVE PUT THIS BAD GUY AWAY, IF HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A SHOT......

A BIGGER GUN WON'T HELP YOU, IF YOU CAN'T HIT SQUAT WITH IT ! ! !
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
A WELL PLACED SHOT OR 2, WOULD HAVE PUT THAT GUY AWAY---EVEN FROM A SNUB ! ! !

WHATEVER YOU CARRY, GET TRAINED AND PRACTICE WITH IT, UNTIL YOU CAN USE IT EFFECTIVELY.....

MASSAD AYOOB CARRIES A 5 SHOT J-FRAME. I'M CERTAIN THAT MAS, OR ANOTHER WELL TRAINED PERSON, COULD HAVE PUT THIS BAD GUY AWAY, IF HE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A SHOT......

A BIGGER GUN WON'T HELP YOU, IF YOU CAN'T HIT SQUAT WITH IT ! ! !
What if you needed to use 4 or 5 shots for cover fire to pin him down and stop the killing before being able to get a kill shot ?? just a couple of shots near him could possible stop him shooting but where you don't have a clear shot ..

No one in any discussion on this forum that I've read have ever said anything about cover shots to pin a shooter down before being able to get into a position for a kill shot .. That was brought up by the deputy sheriff who taught my CCL class .. as was shooting off the pavement under a car to hit a perp in the legs ..

That's one reason I like a auto with a larger mag which carries more then 5 or 6 shots !!

My Beretta PX-4 Sub Compact with 13+1 I believe is a better weapon for that situation !! as would any auto with 10 or more in the mag ..

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Old 07-01-2018, 05:16 AM
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Cover fire??? What are you thinking? The guy has a shotgun. If he doesn't take cover and swings on you instead they are going to be covering you with dirt. Your advocating cover fire in an building occupied by other innocents. Looks good in the movies. Works in a military ambush (suppressive).

Guy in a building hunting people with a shotgun. When you get your chance you best not just blaze away in his direction and get him to focused on you or your location. Best make him dead ASAP. Make it count. Isn't a movie. Firepower is fine. Accuracy is FINAL. Your committing to shoot near him, I would commit to shooting in him.

I am not saying capacity is a bad thing. I am saying making it count is a better thing.

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Old 07-01-2018, 05:43 AM
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It is situations like this why I would choose to carry a .357 Magnum snub nose revolver over a .32/.327 Magnum or .38 Special. While the recoil is somewhat higher, when limited to only five rounds, I believe that having the most available velocity and energy is critical.

For example, in the scenario mentioned, if one must take a shot at an active shooter as he reloads as shotgun, I suppose that one or two center mass shots with a 125 grain .357 Magnum hollow point would stop the threat more quickly and perhaps negate the capacity issue. Of course this is all speculation, but it makes for fun discussion.

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Old 07-01-2018, 07:34 AM
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Do not worry the 5 shot stubby would have saved you and stopped the perp dead.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by lazarus66 View Post
I think when that guy stopped to reload I would be ramming my Kershaw Blur into his guts for all I was worth. I don't carry a gun, but I'm not unarmed, either.
While not illegal, and I agree with you completely, remember we are talking about Marylandistan, where most businesses will be screaming like a recalcitrant three year old if they found out you were carrying a Boy Scout knife.

Full Disclosure - my better half was one of the several hundred responders to this incident. She volunteers on the County's Mobile Command and Communications unit and also the rehab unit. She was on location maintaining the IT operations of the MCCU. The Rehab unit was also on location taking care of the hundreds of personnel on location, they provide drinks, food, snacks, and cooling tents during the summer heat. Several local restaurants showed up with food and the left contacts with "what ever you need, call us" instructions. Annapolis Strong!

Also, Thursday was Induction Day at the Naval Academy, so local LE was geared up for the traffic issues that some ~1500 new students and their families bring with them.

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Old 07-01-2018, 08:26 AM
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90 degrees and the 4th of July is just a few days away.......ya would love to have my Shorty-9 with 12+1 or even my 3913 with 7+1 and.... spare magazine(s)......

but the reality is with cargo shorts and a tucked in Polo shirt........


my only viable choices for pocket carry..... will be my Smith 337 PD with 5 .38s, at 12 oz; or my Colt Mustang pocket-lite .380
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:41 AM
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Hard to CCW an MG 34.

One guy. 5 rounds, how does having 6, 7, 10, 19 improve your odds?

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Originally Posted by hostler View Post
not pointed at anyone in particular but am I the only one who has issue with the term "EDC"? Speaking for myself, I have three guns that I alternately carry depending on my plans for that day or my mood, on many days I don't even carry so EDC doesn't really even apply. I do have a snubby that gets carried quite a bit but to call it an EDC would be wrong as I also have an LCP and a Glock that sometimes get carried.
I imagine a lot of folks EDC thier "favorite" (the one that works in 95 percent of all cases). JMO habits are good, ALWAYS leave home with it.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
YES! 2 12g shotguns and 4 AK47s with 5 more people to use em. but as i cant carry that much weight ill just stick with my 2 shooter or my j frame. if faced with a shotgun would you rather have something else than a 7,10,15,18, round what ever handgun?
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Old 07-01-2018, 10:49 AM
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Against an active-shooter, Iím going to escape if possible. If not an option, Iíd be looking to ambush the shooter at close-range and I would actually prefer a snub in that scenario. I just donít see engaging like youíre running an IDPA course being realistic or a good tactic even if it was.
Unfortunately so many (the majority) of defensive pistol classes teach that run-and-gun mindset these dsys. Very few teach a person what to do when they are pushing their shopping cart to their car and a thug steps out with intentions to rob them or other scenarios like that.
The simple stuff doesn't sell classes....teaching people how to be wannabe commandos does sell.
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:59 PM
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Everyone has a top pick for thier carry gun. Each has thier reasons and for the most part thier reasons are valid. What is most important is you have it on you, it's accessable, secrure and your good with it.
I chose a 325 snub with 200gr golddots. I have my reasons and I believe in them and it.
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:25 PM
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To me, a J frame is a BUG only - but I have carried one as sole armament under specific circumstances. It's better than strong words and hope. My EDC is a Glock 33 and a spare magazine; that choice is a direct result of my environment and the tradeoffs inherent. However, as a cop, that was my BUG; I carried at various times a 1911 with 4 spare mages, and a G21 with 3, plus the car had a shotgun and an AR.

A pistol what you carry if you don't have reason to expect a problem - if you expect a problem and can't be elsewhere and are not taking a long gun, you are not very smart. If my office had better walls, I would have an AR in a rack.
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:29 PM
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I have an S&Wģ BG-38 that I have been carrying EVERY DAY since 11/2014. Thus it is my EDC. (I have no problem with the term "EDC").
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Old 07-01-2018, 04:54 PM
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Hard to conceal carry a M2 or even a SAW. Aircraft carriers are so expensive.if I knew a gun fight was coming, I would go with cocentina wire, lots of AR plate and claymores out in front of my mortors, artilary and heavy machine guns and keep my A10s and gunships fueled and loaded a bit to the rear. Lol
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
It is not a 5-shot snub versus a 12 gauge. It is you versus the shooter.
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:33 PM
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Unless one practices a LOT, the ergonomics of the snubby are against you. The snubby is capable of about the same mechanical accuracy as any other quality revolver, but it has tiny sights, is harder to hold on to, has less weight to provide resistance against the more difficult trigger pull, and all that is fighting you while your performance is degraded by stress.

My mini-glock sucks less than a snubby, but is not near as good as a full size pistol. As a rule, if I leave the immediate area of the city in which I live, where I know where I am going and can plan escapes more easily, I carry a full size Glock. Either way, I also carry a spare mag and have at least one heavier caliber handgun in my bugout bag. Having had a couple of negative interactions with gang members I've prosecuted and others of like mind, I like to have options.
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:12 PM
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...a lot of people...hopefully perps included...don't seem to realize a shotgun can be easily topped off between shots...

...a well operated shotgun should never go dry...
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:47 PM
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We may never know if the shooter actually paused to reload so the question likely never will be answered as to whether a j-frame would have worked.

I lean toward the idea that the person who wrote that tweet heard the shooter racking the slide, so whipping out one's Chief's Special might have been the wrong move.

I'm retired some years now, but this incident interests me greatly as I worked for decades for a group of community newspapers. Near the end of my time with them we were bought by a large holding company and weapons were forbidden by policy, even one in your car in the parking lot.

Not sure what the compliance rate was but I do know it was not 100%.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Really? So if you had a choice you would go 5 shot snub vs a 12ga?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate. A pistol vs long gun is tough to start with. Then a less than optimum pistol at that. I know, have a gun, but nothing wrong with a "better" gun for these small % chance encounters.
Incidents like this should give all of us that ccw pause & evaluate what & how we carry & how much training, practice & what our skill level is. This was not a punk mugger but stone cold killer. I doubt he would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way. He had a purpose & was going to go thru with it. These are the 1% predators that require a more serious approach to EDC imo. yes small %, but not to the 5 dead.
Had "those couple of rounds coming his way" WENT INTO HIS BRISKET Problem solved.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseRoad View Post
...a lot of people...hopefully perps included...don't seem to realize a shotgun can be easily topped off between shots...

...a well operated shotgun should never go dry...
......and try to convince the Fed Wildlife Agent standing outside your pit......that your gun really does have the plug in it....5 shot snub & recent MD shooting

Yeap, been there, done that.

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Old 07-01-2018, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post


I imagine a lot of folks EDC thier "favorite" (the one that works in 95 percent of all cases). JMO habits are good, ALWAYS leave home with it.
I agree with you, unfortunately as I stated earlier, I live on the border of MD and I work in MD so ALWAYS having it is illegal for me.
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Old 07-01-2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by smithman 10 View Post
We may never know if the shooter actually paused to reload so the question likely never will be answered as to whether a j-frame would have worked.

I lean toward the idea that the person who wrote that tweet heard the shooter racking the slide, so whipping out one's Chief's Special might have been the wrong move.

I'm retired some years now, but this incident interests me greatly as I worked for decades for a group of community newspapers. Near the end of my time with them we were bought by a large holding company and weapons were forbidden by policy, even one in your car in the parking lot.

Not sure what the compliance rate was but I do know it was not 100%.
The company I work for has a "no firearms" policy for employees. I also work in a state that doesn't allow me to carry.
The company policy I would disobey because jobs are easy come easy go, the state law is a felony, that's not as easy come easy go.
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Old 07-01-2018, 11:45 PM
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The company I work for has a "no firearms" policy for employees. I also work in a state that doesn't allow me to carry.
The company policy I would disobey because jobs are easy come easy go, the state law is a felony, that's not as easy come easy go.
HOW EASY COME EASY GO IS HUMAN LIFE---IN THIS INSTANCE, YOURS ? ? ?
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:19 AM
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Israeli Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim used a single stack .22 lr Beetta Cheetah to engage 3 terrorist armed with full auto long guns killing one of them. I'm sure he would've been better suited with a full size duty/combat pistol but he used what the bosses gave him. Could the shooter have kept going after getting hit 1 to 5 times yes, hopefully not but we'll never know.
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:30 AM
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The only thing more ghoulish and gruesome than listening to Andrew Cuomo blame the NRA for this tragedy, is listening to people that ought to know better argue over how the victims could have stopped it.
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