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  #101  
Old 07-02-2018, 05:44 AM
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We are not arguing over how the victims could have stopped him.

The debate here is whether a 5 shot snub revolver would have been an effective weapon in such a incident or if a semi auto would have worked while the snub would have not.

It is very unfortunate that none of the victims was able to defend themselves, either because of laws, policies or personal belief. I am sure no one here feels anything but sorry this happened and all have sympathy for them and their families.

This is the concealed carry portion of the forum and types of weapons, reasons to carry and effectiveness is a focus. If we didn't believe carrying a gun could stop a murderous event none of us would carry.

Does looking at any kind of tragic event and discussing how it could have be diverted or mediated make one a ghoul?
Such hind sight is why we have shoulder harnesses, air bags, cars that crumble in a designed manner.

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  #102  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
The debate here is whether a 5 shot snub revolver would have been an effective weapon in such a incident or if a semi auto would have worked while the snub would have not.
I think the legal issue arose because someone said the victims would be limited to a smaller firearm (such as a j-frame) because they would most likely be carrying illegally.
I think to be fair and with respect to that perspective the question should be, would a j frame be as effective as a "pocket sized" semi auto, basically a small single stack in 380 or some 9s.
I carry a j-frame but given the circumstances in MD I would have to say my choice would be a single stack 9 for the extra firepower.
I carry a j-frame because it carries better and easier than any of the small 9s (IMO). Isn't that always the trade off with concealed carry, otherwise we would all carry AR15s.

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  #103  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by smithman 10 View Post
Not sure what the compliance rate was but I do know it was not 100%.
Good for you. I would have done (and actually have done) the exact same thing.
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  #104  
Old 07-02-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
HOW EASY COME EASY GO IS HUMAN LIFE---IN THIS INSTANCE, YOURS ? ? ?
Unfortunately, the reality for good people who live in NJ, NY, CA, MD, HI, and a few other hold out states, is that carrying a pistol for protection would entail an arrest, probable conviction, and then a prison term with a lifetime prohibition on legal gun ownership, not to mention the loss of any gainful employment and the right to vote.

In those places, the probability of getting caught by the police are much more likely than needing a pistol for defense. If your car breaks down, or if you have a medical crisis, or if you are searched for reasons beyond your control (a lockdown in the building you happen to be in), you're screwed for life.
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  #105  
Old 07-02-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
Unfortunately, the reality for good people who live in NJ, NY, CA, MD, HI, and a few other hold out states, is that carrying a pistol for protection would entail an arrest, probable conviction, and then a prison term with a lifetime prohibition on legal gun ownership, not to mention the loss of any gainful employment and the right to vote.

In those places, the probability of getting caught by the police are much more likely than needing a pistol for defense. If your car breaks down, or if you have a medical crisis, or if you are searched for reasons beyond your control (a lockdown in the building you happen to be in), you're screwed for life.
FWIW, ccw is legal in all 50 states at some level. Out here, we have to jump thru a ton of hoops in some counties. In some counties only the well connected & affluent can get ccw. I never carried until I had my permit. I make a point of carrying in LA or SF area just because the ccw is almost impossible, thus higher crime/victim opportunities imo. I wish ever legal gun owner could ccw. I feel it reduces violent crime by quite a bit.
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  #106  
Old 07-02-2018, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hostler View Post
"Slightly" more restrictive?????
MD is a shall issue state where you need to show a specific documented cause for them to even consider issuing a permit, Maryland calls it "good and substantial reason".
There are about 17000 permit holders in a state of 6 million residents. (roughly 0.4% of the population).
Florida has 1.8 million permit holders with a population of about 20 million. (roughly 10% of the population).
The vast majority of those 17000 Maryland permits are restricted to specific places and times the permit holder can carry such as to and from the bank or a business, or after your life has specifically been threatened.
My point is, FL and MD have absolutely nothing in common as far as the issuance of permits goes. I know what I'm talking about here because I work in and live on the border of MD, I currently have a PA permit, a FL permit and I have applied for a MD permit which was returned (denied) because I didn't meet the "good and substantial reason" clause.

In practice, one stands a better chance of getting a permit in New York or CA than they do in MD.
That is MAY issue, just like Kalif. Fortunately the county sherrifs or larger city PC are in charge of issue with state guide lines. So we have about 110,000 permits in a state of 39 1/2M. That & sanctuary cities could be why our violent crime is so high.
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  #107  
Old 07-02-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
That is MAY issue, just like Kalif. Fortunately the county sherrifs or larger city PC are in charge of issue with state guide lines. So we have about 110,000 permits in a state of 39 1/2M. That & sanctuary cities could be why our violent crime is so high.
Maryland State Police Licensing Division controls CCWs in Maryland. For the average Joe, it ain't happening. A friend of mine had a crazy ex actually take a crack at him, and his renewal was denied, basically because she hadn't tried recently...they will use any reason they can to deny you meet the "Good and Substantial Reason" requirement.

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  #108  
Old 07-02-2018, 03:54 PM
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If you don't mind, I'd like to lift part of your reply and modify it a bit (not because I disagree with most of your post, either) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
...
The debate here is whether a 5 shot snub revolver would have been an effective weapon in such a incident or if a semi auto would have worked while the snub would have not. ...
The question here is whether some lawful owners/carries would feel they were capable of ending the attack/threat with 5 rounds.

This is what it comes down to, eventually.

Some may have less confidence in themselves.

Some may have less confidence in the design (revolver vs. pistol).

Some may have less confidence because of the smaller or larger size of the handgun, from a handling and manipulation perspective.

Some may have less confidence in a "caliber" (for whatever reason they've decided is right).

Some may have less confidence in only having 5 fast rounds at their disposal, versus 6-8, 9-10, or 20+ rounds before having to reload.

Some may just "feel" they need something large enough to also use it as portable cover.

These are the sort of things that carefully devised (and supervised) training can help sort out for many folks, up to and including properly regulated force-on-force training.

Of course, sometimes any answers obtained in increasingly realistic training may only create more questions, or deflate some previously held, cherished notion.

TANSTAAFL. Sometimes that's how it goes.
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  #109  
Old 07-02-2018, 04:15 PM
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NO QUARTER to active shooters. Face shots and a 38 to the face would have ended it quick that's all I have to say.
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  #110  
Old 07-02-2018, 04:43 PM
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Since it is perfectly clear that in a face to face standoff where the shotgun wielding killer has the literal drop on you it doesn't matter what your defensive weapon is. But if I am in my office (under my desk, even!) and I hear gunfire (and ignoring the fact that I have an escape route) my handgun, be it a J frame, K frame, or 9mm, will be IN MY HANDS. He might get me but a lot of rounds will be headed his way before that shotgun points directly at me. I AM PREPARED for that scenario. My company WANTS ME to be prepared for that scenario. If the killer walks into my office first, well, that's different. But if the shooting has started there WILL be a gunfight. The good news, I have colleagues who are just as ready and prepared as I am and one is a VERY Misguided Child who has seen the elephant so, well, this is Dallas, Texas, and some offices are prepared for the this. Mine is one of them. I imagine the folks in Annapolis are somewhat less prepared than we are.
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  #111  
Old 07-02-2018, 05:12 PM
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As a legal CCW holder, you have ONE ADVANTAGE over Mr. Psychopath. You KNOW he has a shotgun and is intent on murder. He does not know you are armed.

Throwing shots at him will inform him you are armed. Maybe that will make him leave. But, if he planned on dying here today, it just gives away your position. Make every shot count, because even if you have a G19 with a 33 round stick, if you miss many shots, you will be too dead to fire the rest. Against one Psycho, five is plenty. And five .38 or .357 is way better balistically than seven .380s.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:37 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




Ya can't miss fast enough to win.




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  #113  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:38 PM
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It ultimately boils down to tactics and timing. There are even plenty of examples of unarmed individuals taking down active-shooters. The idea of shooting it out, especially in the open, seems rather absurd to me, regardless of the weapons involved.

There have also been a few mentions about how we carry handguns because they are concealable and convenient, but if expecting trouble, a long gun is superior. I don't see it that way, because a long gun would be next to useless for most people in the majority of civilian defense situations. Itís a matter of the likely dynamics, the distances involved, and reactive vs proactive. I carry because I do have a reasonable expectation that I might actually need it and a handgun is the most effective tool for the most probable scenarios.
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  #114  
Old 07-02-2018, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Somebody help me out here. Did someone in the newsroom actually have a snubby? Or is this just more revolver hate. News flash. You're at a huge disadvantage when it's long gun vs short gun. I don't care if the short one's a Glock 17 with a 50rd drum.
I would say that it would come down to a couple of key factors: 1. Close quarters vs. open areas and 2., who, if anyone, has got the drop on the other.

I don't believe that anyone is at a "huge disadvantage" based solely on not having a long gun. If I was taking concealment in a tight, close quarters scenario, I believe I would be better served with a handgun. Having your hands full of rifle/carbine can be a liability - especially in tight spaces such as offices / narrow corridors and alike. An effective handgun caliber and bullet in the hands of a well practiced defender can go a long way in balancing a perceived advantage of a rifle in an armed confrontation.





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  #115  
Old 07-02-2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mack_C85 View Post
Maryland State Police Licensing Division controls CCWs in Maryland. For the average Joe, it ain't happening. A friend of mine had a crazy ex actually take a crack at him, and his renewal was denied, basically because she hadn't tried recently...they will use any reason they can to deny you meet the "Good and Substantial Reason" requirement.

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Understood, why it is called MAY issue. They may or may not. The good cause thing is BS. Same thing here until the 2015 Peruta case.
Second Amendment case Peruta vs. California may be heading to Supreme Court | Fox News
I live in Orange Cty. Until this case the sherrif here issued about 50 a year. Since then, 5,000 a year & climbing. If the case gets decided by the SCOTUS, it might help other may issue states like MD.
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  #116  
Old 07-02-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Fred, I don't pick my off-duty/retirement weapons predicated upon only facing a certain type of attacker's weapon.

The training, quals & drills I practice for use with my J-frames are the same as those used with my larger belt guns.

Comes to that, how is this any different than the earlier days of carrying a 6rd service revolver on-duty? I fully expected I might have to use that revolver against someone armed with a shotgun. As a matter of fact, I remember one night in an "active" beat where I saw a man walking down the sidewalk carrying a Mossberg pump shotgun with an extended mag tube, and the first thing I reached for was my 6rd duty revolver.

The only difference is that I realize my diminutive 5-shot snubs require more effort on my part in order to obtain practical accuracy and controllability, compared to larger pistols and revolvers.

Yes, the inherent 5rd ammo limitation probably means the smaller weapon is likely anticipated as being sufficient to use against 1-2 attackers (although I remember learning of a case where a cop effectively and successfully used one against 3 armed robbers).

Another way to look at it is when considering one of the threat targets we've often used for some training & quals, when we use those large, full color pictures of different people holding different firearms. One of them is a "threat" wearing obvious body armor over a t-shirt and holding a subgun. Yes, I've used that particular threat target when running one of my 5rd snubs for practice drills or a qual, and when wandering out and about in public I have in the back of my mind that I might run into some nutcase who would essentially fulfill this "scenario" ... even if I'm only carrying one of my J-frame snubs.

The size of the gun can introduce training and manipulation difficulties for many shooters, and even require more frequent loading (reloading) for extended drills and qual courses-of-fire ... but it's still just a handgun.

When the rubber meets the road, it's still the skillset, mindset, training and experience of the guy/gal carrying it that's likely to mean the difference.

So, yes Fred, I still anticipate that one of the real-world threats I might encounter could be a shotgun wielding nut in some public place, and I still often choose to carry one of my 5-shot snubs as a retirement weapon, even keeping this in mind. (Ditto one of my 6-shot LCP's comes to that.)

Would I rather have my own 12GA shotgun, or even a rifle, if facing a shotgun wielding nut? Of course.

It's certainly preferable to being unarmed.
I do not disagree but the question isn't armed vs unarmed but armed vs better armed, trained & skilled vs better trained & better skilled. As a working LEO back in the day, sure you had a 6 shot revolver & speed loaders, vest, radio & you made do. Until agencies figured out that their officers would be "better" armed with as semi & faster reloads, more ammo & issued that?
I am not bashing revos, I love them, but events like this, among others recently, make me glad I carry a bit more gun & train & practice harder than most LEO. I probably never need it, but if I do, I probably need it very badly. Everyone misses, body armor, multiple attackers, what ever. So more seems better than less. JMO. My g26 is not much of a burden. It is a question to provoke thought, not meant as an attack on the guys/gals that want to carry light or practice easy.
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  #117  
Old 07-02-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
Unfortunately, the reality for good people who live in NJ, NY, CA, MD, HI, and a few other hold out states, is that carrying a pistol for protection would entail an arrest, probable conviction, and then a prison term with a lifetime prohibition on legal gun ownership, not to mention the loss of any gainful employment and the right to vote.

In those places, the probability of getting caught by the police are much more likely than needing a pistol for defense. If your car breaks down, or if you have a medical crisis, or if you are searched for reasons beyond your control (a lockdown in the building you happen to be in), you're screwed for life.
Uh, New York is a shall-issue state. I carry every day. NYC is not the entire state of NY.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I am not bashing revos, I love them, but events like this, among others recently, make me glad I carry a bit more gun & train & practice harder than most LEO. I probably never need it, but if I do, I probably need it very badly. Everyone misses, body armor, multiple attackers, what ever. So more seems better than less. JMO. My g26 is not much of a burden. It is a question to provoke thought, not meant as an attack on the guys/gals that want to carry light or practice easy.
Maybe you don't intend for it to be bashing, but you come across as a bit condescending and as if you have the perspective that choosing to carry a snub revolver equals being lazy.

I choose to carry a snub because I think it's the most effective weapon for the most probable scenarios I'll encounter and how I intend to respond.

How exactly are you better trained and practice harder than most LEO's?
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:25 PM
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...It is a question to provoke thought, not meant as an attack on the guys/gals that want to carry light or practice easy.
Didn't see it as an "attack" on folks who have found reason to carry light.

Regardless of whether someone is carrying 5 rounds and a 5rd speedloader/strip, or 17rds and 50rds in spare mags, it's likely still going to come down to accurately putting rounds where they need to go, fast enough. Time-wise, having it happen with the initial 1-3 rounds is probably better in hedging things in your favor than having it happen after you've dumped a couple of mags without the desired effect.

I've listened to guys who emptied a couple hi-cap mags at an attacker, either without hitting their attacker, or not hitting their attacker in a sufficiently critical anatomical spot to prevent the attacker from being able to continue their volitional deadly force actions. (Lifted a bit of that description from the '89 FBI paper on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, as it left an impression on me when I received a copy of it when it was new. ) In some cases they had the time to realize they needed to make a critical hit (or 3, in one case meaning 3 head shots) to try and survive.

Then, I've listened to guys who ended their encounter with 1-2 hits (and all of their extra mags and remaining ammo ended up in evidence ).

For myself, I still occasionally take one or another of my DA or DAO 5-shot J's out to 40-50yds, to make sure I can still keep them on the scoring zones of whatever silhouettes we may be presently using, or perhaps on one of the steel silhouettes at that range. I also make sure I run them just as hard as my subcompact to full-size pistols within the usual 3-15yd qual Cof's, and while they may require more loading between strings of fire, they don't get any slack when it comes to scoring the hits.

Now, I see it more from the perspective of deciding whether I'm willing to have 5 immediate rounds ready for use before having to load again ... or 8 rounds .... or 9 rounds ... or 10 rounds ... or maybe even 12 rounds (my highest mag capacity pistol).

Not because I'm practicing any "easier" for carrying a smaller gun with fewer rounds. If anything, I'm going to practice harder with the lower capacity gun, to try and improve my potential to be able get those critical first 1-3 hits with it/them.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:38 PM
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Off-Duty Officer Shoots Armed Robber at Beauty Salon - The New York Times

Here's story about an NYPD off-duty, female officer, who shot a felon who was armed with what looked like a Ruger 44 magnum. The officer fired all 5 rounds from her model 640, hitting the guy's gun hand and disabling him.

The 5 shot snub worked in this instance.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:48 PM
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Maybe you don't intend for it to be bashing, but you come across as a bit condescending and as if you have the perspective that choosing to carry a snub revolver equals being lazy.

I choose to carry a snub because I think it's the most effective weapon for the most probable scenarios I'll encounter and how I intend to respond.

How exactly are you better trained and practice harder than most LEO's?
No you want to read into things to support & defend your decision. It was a simple question, read nothing into it.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:50 PM
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Didn't see it as an "attack" on folks who have found reason to carry light.

Regardless of whether someone is carrying 5 rounds and a 5rd speedloader/strip, or 17rds and 50rds in spare mags, it's likely still going to come down to accurately putting rounds where they need to go, fast enough. Time-wise, having it happen with the initial 1-3 rounds is probably better in hedging things in your favor than having it happen after you've dumped a couple of mags without the desired effect.

I've listened to guys who emptied a couple hi-cap mags at an attacker, either without hitting their attacker, or not hitting their attacker in a sufficiently critical anatomical spot to prevent the attacker from being able to continue their volitional deadly force actions. (Lifted a bit of that description from the '89 FBI paper on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, as it left an impression on me when I received a copy of it when it was new. ) In some cases they had the time to realize they needed to make a critical hit (or 3, in one case meaning 3 head shots) to try and survive.

Then, I've listened to guys who ended their encounter with 1-2 hits (and all of their extra mags and remaining ammo ended up in evidence ).

For myself, I still occasionally take one or another of my DA or DAO 5-shot J's out to 40-50yds, to make sure I can still keep them on the scoring zones of whatever silhouettes we may be presently using, or perhaps on one of the steel silhouettes at that range. I also make sure I run them just as hard as my subcompact to full-size pistols within the usual 3-15yd qual Cof's, and while they may require more loading between strings of fire, they don't get any slack when it comes to scoring the hits.

Now, I see it more from the perspective of deciding whether I'm willing to have 5 immediate rounds ready for use before having to load again ... or 8 rounds .... or 9 rounds ... or 10 rounds ... or maybe even 12 rounds (my highest mag capacity pistol).

ot because I'm practicing any "easier" for carrying a smaller gun with fewer rounds. If anything, I'm going to practice harder with the lower capacity gun, to try and improve my potential to be able get those critical first 1-3 hits with it/them.
But I lnow you ate the exception, you actually practice, most do not, not leo or ccw.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:41 PM
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But I lnow you ate the exception, you actually practice, most do not, not leo or ccw.
Dunno about being the exception, but that's how I was when it came to my pursuit of the martial arts, as well.

Admittedly, I was usually the firearms instructor who wanted to spend the most time downrange getting trigger time, too. Same way I was always looking to get in some extra training time in the arts, and trying new arts and techniques as a younger practitioner.

What's the point of being an instructor if you're not going to use it to continually work to improve yourself, right? Of course, I also knew my share of instructors who didn't necessarily like to shoot in front of either line staff or other instructors, meaning unless forced to do so, and who didn't often jump at the chance to get in some extra training. (Well, I knew their "counterparts" in the earlier days when I earned my membership dues in a dojo by being an instructor 5 hours a day/night, 3 days a week. Not every instructor liked to demonstrate their skills in front of others.)
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:24 PM
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No you want to read into things to support & defend your decision. It was a simple question, read nothing into it.

I simply read what you write. On these recent revolver vs auto threads, you frequently said you don't care what anyone carries, but turn around and use terms such as misguided, short-sighted and not well thought out when responding to those who opt to carry a J-frame. I would label that condescending or perhaps more accurately, patronizing.

Then there is the Glock forum where you frequently boast about how well trained you are and most who carry are not as well how much better trained you are than most LEO's.

I still don't know what this super D duper training you've taken is or what whiz bang practice methods you do that has transformed you into such a phenomenal citizen defender, but please share so others can perhaps do the same if they chose to and also be so well prepared. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be an older guy whose primarily into IDPA and that somehow makes you superior? I'm not really sure how that makes you exceptionally well-trained in the context of what is needed for civilian self-defense or even better trained than most LEO's, but maybe you wouldn't mind explaining it to me.

And why you're at it, I'd love to hear how you came to the conclusions you posted here...http://smith-wessonforum.com/140081613-post98.html
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:32 PM
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Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
In that particular scenario.
, Yes I would want something else besides a pocket firearm. An AR15 would be my choice. But I don't want to carry an AR with me everywhere I go. So the answer to what I would want in my EDC is exactly what I choose to carry, usually a j-frame. Maybe on that particular day I would want something larger than a pocket gun, but on every other day a pocket gun is exactly what I want. Sometimes I even carry an LCP. It's not because I'm under trained or because I haven't thought it through, it's because I don't want to walk around all day with a full sized gun hanging off my belt.
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:38 PM
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More info came has come out... the papers lawyer recieved written notifcation on the MONDAY before the shooting from Mr. Ramos that he was coming and stating his intent to kill everyone in the office. The newspapers reaction. Nobody open your mail, we better screen it. No increased physical security, no armed guards, no police action, nothing.....the papers management is as culpable as the shooter.

But of course, the insane (they do the same thing over and over and expect something different to happen) politicians and media folks have already started calling for increased gun control in a State that already requires a Handgun Qualification License for purchase, has a 7 day waiting period on certain guns, and severely limits CCWs.

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Old 07-03-2018, 06:47 PM
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Maybe you don't intend for it to be bashing, but you come across as a bit condescending and as if you have the perspective that choosing to carry a snub revolver equals being lazy.

I choose to carry a snub because I think it's the most effective weapon for the most probable scenarios I'll encounter and how I intend to respond.

How exactly are you better trained and practice harder than most LEO's?
Unless the LEO works for an exceptionally progressive LE agency, the average cop is not really all that well trained. Most cops do their required range qualification and that's where it generally ends. Only about 25-30% of full time cops are really into guns and ammo. Back in the day, I have stood on the firing line at the range next to cops who couldn't even clear leather, because they didn't know how their clam-shell holster worked. There are many, many non-police types who are far better trained with firearms than most LEO's. (I will say however, that since 9-1-1, over-all firearms training for LEO's has apparently improved markedly over the years since.) But based on what I have seen/read in news articles, some cops are still woefully bad shots. Again, it seems to depend on how much the individual agencies emphasize firearms training.
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:59 PM
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I used to carry a S&W Mod. 60 stainless Chief's Special. I always considered it nothing more than a belly gun - since beyond 5 yards, my accuracy with it was very iffy. Eventually, I sold it and picked-a 4" Colt Diamondback .38. Now that was a shooter! I could actually hit something with it. Much of this has a lot to do with how much training time you are willing to dedicate to becoming proficient with a particular firearm.
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:37 PM
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Unless the LEO works for an exceptionally progressive LE agency, the average cop is not really all that well trained. Most cops do their required range qualification and that's where it generally ends. Only about 25-30% of full time cops are really into guns and ammo. Back in the day, I have stood on the firing line at the range next to cops who couldn't even clear leather, because they didn't know how their clam-shell holster worked. There are many, many non-police types who are far better trained with firearms than most LEO's. (I will say however, that since 9-1-1, over-all firearms training for LEO's has apparently improved markedly over the years since.) But based on what I have seen/read in news articles, some cops are still woefully bad shots. Again, it seems to depend on how much the individual agencies emphasize firearms training.
A lot depends on the department, but that wasn't my point. The question was how is Fred better trained to respond to an active-shooter in a civilian setting better than the average LEO. When comparing an older gentleman whose experience is pretty much limited to IDPA to a Cop who is younger, stronger, faster, has a few years on the job and has some H2H skills, I would bet my money on the latter in being successful in handling themselves in that situation.

Gun-centric folks tend to only see things from the perspective of a shoot-out. That isn't reality for the vast majority of civilian defense scenarios and it isn't even true when it comes to active-shooters. If you are at ground zero when you recognize what's occuring or when the shooting starts, that's an ECQ scenario and you will want to have the skill-sets(and tools)that are most effective in those situations and IDPA isn't one of them. In terms of gear, I for sure wouldn't want a long gun at those distances and I'm not sure in what bizarre circumstances anyone would have one with them in the first place. If you have any substantial degree of distance between the shooter, I would recommend getting to cover and simply escaping the scene. So, there is an extremely narrow window of possibility where you would actually NEED(no other option or it's likely the best tactic) to engage the shooter in anything that resembles what you do in IDPA and other forms of competitive shooting or even what a lot of folks practice at the range.

I'm not a cop and I'm simply not interested in playing hero and getting into a running ranged gun battle. My obligation is to my family and I'm either getting out as quickly as possible or engaging at very close-range since there is no other option and my lightweight snub will serve me well in either circumstance.
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:47 PM
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five shot snub nose is a "Backup" not a main arm
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Old 07-04-2018, 10:12 AM
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Default You're better than that, JimmyJ. I thought...

... if not, I direct your attention to this thread.

Be safe.

There's always some bozo who...

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five shot snub nose is a "Backup" not a main arm

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Old 07-05-2018, 11:06 AM
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five shot snub nose is a "Backup" not a main arm

Jimmy,
I carried a 37 no dash as an ankle gun way back when, as a
backup to my 357 or 44 primary in a 'Border Patrol' holster.

Ah, for the good ol days, eh...……..

Those 38 snubs are A-Okay for desk duty, not the best choice for
the working street cop or those Deputies and Troopers out on the rural route.

I guess it would be better than nothing, in an office dust-up.


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Old 07-05-2018, 12:20 PM
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I guess it would be better than nothing, in an office dust-up.


.
Keith for the win................

cus "nothing" is what they had in MD!!!!!!


OK I guess a pencil could be classified as a "sharp stick"!!!!!!
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:28 PM
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Keith for the win................

cus "nothing" is what they had in MD!!!!!!


OK I guess a pencil could be classified as a "sharp stick"!!!!!!
That's not exactly true. I've seen this statement in several accounts of the shooting:

Quote:
Some employees began taking off high heels preparing to flee the building. Others hid. One employee pulled two handguns out of his desk drawer for self defense, she said.
This particular quote is from the Baltimore Sun, the parent company of the Capital Gazette . . .

Five dead in 'targeted attack' at Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis, police say; Laurel man charged with murder - Baltimore Sun
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:47 PM
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That's not exactly true. I've seen this statement in several accounts of the shooting:



This particular quote is from the Baltimore Sun, the parent company of the Capital Gazette . . .

Five dead in 'targeted attack' at Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis, police say; Laurel man charged with murder - Baltimore Sun

Just read it........ given the structure of the four paragraphs I interpret that the gun(s) were in the Frost and Assoc LLC suite;not the Paper's area.

4 paragraphs quoting Foster ..... gun referenced in the 2rd paragraph
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Old 07-05-2018, 02:11 PM
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Just my personal opinion here...These nuts choose targets where they believe they can accomplish their carnage unopposed, so they donít expect anyone to interfere until the police arrive. A person with a J Frame will have the element of surprise if they can maintain their composure and make the shots count.

Like the guy said earlier, you cannot always conceal what youíd prefer to CCW...so you have to adapt. That was pretty brave, carrying a J Frame at work when it was banned. My first thought when I read about this shooting was ďJust terrible, and to think it could have been stopped by one person with a little J Frame...Ē...
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Old 07-05-2018, 02:26 PM
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Keith for the win................

cus "nothing" is what they had in MD!!!!!!


OK I guess a pencil could be classified as a "sharp stick"!!!!!!
Oh donít say that, BAM-BAM, theyíll read it and make pencils illegal in Maryland.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:13 PM
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Default A Model 60 worked just fine for me...

...during the first 16 or so years of my LEO career...'til we transitioned to semi-autos. (After that could only carry autoloaders.)

Model 10 4" was issued duty gun but that was rather unwieldy and wholly unsuitable in various assignments. 'Street' work in the truest sense of the word.

Big city work...dealing with big city bad guys. Operational jobs...not a desk jockey.

A M60 NY-1 is now one of the j-frames I carry in my retirement.
Still suits me very well.

In other words, what is the BEST gun for one person does NOT mean it's the best gun for all people.

YMMV...obviously.

Be safe.

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...

Those 38 snubs are A-Okay for desk duty, not the best choice for
the working street cop or those Deputies and Troopers out on the rural route.

I guess it would be better than nothing, in an office dust-up.


.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:25 PM
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Just read it........ given the structure of the four paragraphs I interpret that the gun(s) were in the Frost and Assoc LLC suite;not the Paper's area.

4 paragraphs quoting Foster ..... gun referenced in the 2rd paragraph
Yeah, 1 out of 175 reported in the building. 0.006% of the population, just about what I would expect for CCW in Marylandistan.

BTW - I believe it was reported that the office with the guns was on the fourth floor. The Capital-Gazette offices are just inside the front door on the first floor.

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Old 07-05-2018, 07:47 PM
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Default ATTACK

I don't think any of us will ever know until tested; But I would hope to use my five shots to close with and capture my attacker's weapon. Then I might "feel" sufficiently armed. Until then "feelings" just don't matter much.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:24 PM
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Default Active Shooter

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A lot depends on the department, but that wasn't my point. The question was how is Fred better trained to respond to an active-shooter in a civilian setting better than the average LEO. When comparing an older gentleman whose experience is pretty much limited to IDPA to a Cop who is younger, stronger, faster, has a few years on the job and has some H2H skills, I would bet my money on the latter in being successful in handling themselves in that situation.

Gun-centric folks tend to only see things from the perspective of a shoot-out. That isn't reality for the vast majority of civilian defense scenarios and it isn't even true when it comes to active-shooters. If you are at ground zero when you recognize what's occuring or when the shooting starts, that's an ECQ scenario and you will want to have the skill-sets(and tools)that are most effective in those situations and IDPA isn't one of them. In terms of gear, I for sure wouldn't want a long gun at those distances and I'm not sure in what bizarre circumstances anyone would have one with them in the first place. If you have any substantial degree of distance between the shooter, I would recommend getting to cover and simply escaping the scene. So, there is an extremely narrow window of possibility where you would actually NEED(no other option or it's likely the best tactic) to engage the shooter in anything that resembles what you do in IDPA and other forms of competitive shooting or even what a lot of folks practice at the range.

I'm not a cop and I'm simply not interested in playing hero and getting into a running ranged gun battle. My obligation is to my family and I'm either getting out as quickly as possible or engaging at very close-range since there is no other option and my lightweight snub will serve me well in either circumstance.
Interesting topic and exchange of perspectives here. As a retired cop I carry a no-lock 340PD b/c of physical limitations that prevent me from carrying a bigger/better & heavier gun. During my 30 year career I was involved in three deadly confrontations, one of which a full on gunfight where I was lucky to prevail w/my issued 2Ē Colt DS. We all carried our issued revolvers then and thatís where my comfort level lies. All that said Iíve been retired over 20 years, am past 70 & handicapped. I do get to the range at least monthly but Iím not sure if I would engage an active shooter today unless, in my judgement, I could take him/her out w/o endangering innocents. Mighty tall order even for a young and healthy person, regardless of armament.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:21 PM
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Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
By chance, do you also use the name PRACTICAL here?
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:31 AM
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I can only speak for myself, but the hardest part of responding when under fire is to get my legs to move. Not all situations are the same, and not all men are created equal, as to responding. I'm not talking about bravery or cowardice here-it goes more to personality, and even the same personality will not act in the same way from one situation to another. Training is good, but the idea that I will always respond inside those guidelines has not been borne out in my experience and observations.
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:21 AM
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Default Revolver vs. Long Gun

Trolley Square shooting - Wikipedia

As I recall, this mall shooting in Utah was solved by an off-duty police officer with a 5 shot revolver. He held the gunman at bay until the police arrived. He definitely saved lives, although five were killed.

It doesn't mention the off-duty's weapon in this link, but my memory tells me he had a revolver only. Others may know more about it. Point is, some of these active shooter losers are in video game mentality where they only want unarmed victims. An armed reaction causes them to cease/suicide/die etc.

Last edited by TripLeader; 07-06-2018 at 08:23 AM. Reason: Forgot to post link.
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:09 PM
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I have carried a J frame snubby as a sole firearm a few times. Don't like to, for lots of reasons. A small revolver like that is much harder to shoot well, and in a case such as this it is even more important if that is possible. Given the ballistic reality of handgun rounds, unless one scores a good CNS hit, the odds are that it will take 3-5 shots to slow, then stop, the assailant. Being empty and needing to reload at that point is well below optimal.

My G33 is 9+1, and I carry a spare mag. That is far more likely to be useful, but it is probably more unpleasant to shoot. I carry it most in settings where being discrete is a high priority. If that is not an issue, I stick with a full size 9mm (chopped G17) and a spare magazine. I have actually followed the research, and don't know anyone who wished they had less ammo when the excrement hit the oscillating device.
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:35 PM
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Well, everyone's got their own "comfort leve"l of where they begin to feel they're "sufficiently armed".

Back when I was working, my own idea of being "sufficiently armed" began when I pulled the 12GA 870 from the car. Up until that point, it was "just" a .357 Magnum, 9, .40 or .45 on my hip (all carried as issued weapons at various times).

That duty handgun, regardless of caliber, felt pretty small and under-powered by comparison. Not even big enough to use as cover.

It's not unusual to find that many folks have some unrealistic expectations of the potential of their gun/caliber selection.

It's also not unusual for folks to have some unrealistic grasp of what they can do with whatever it is they've chosen.

The gun and ammo pretty much come out of boxes, but what's between our ears, in our hearts and acquired as experience and experiential knowledge (training, coupled with having "been there and done that", applying it to experience) are the difficult-to-quantify "things" in the equation.

Just make sure that whatever equipment selection you carry around that makes you "feel good" or "feel ready" about things isn't the modern day equivalent of carrying around a rabbit's foot.
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:43 PM
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The first rule of a gun fight.....HAVE A GUN! Caliber is not relevant. Remember a .22 short to the head did in Robert Kennedy!
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