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Old 06-29-2018, 05:10 PM
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Default 5 shot snub & recent MD shooting

Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:21 PM
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“There is nothing more terrifying than hearing multiple people get shot while you’re under your desk and then hear the gunman reload.”

After reading this, I had two thoughts: Firstly, if you can hear he is reloading, why aren't you doing something to prevent him from shooting again and, secondly, If you have the 5 shot snubby, you would have a decent answer to question number one.
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:25 PM
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Media reports state the murderer blocked newspaper staff from fleeing by blocking exit doors. I have no insight as to the security policies of the newspaper building, but I suspect this is yet another example of a protection system failure (if they even bothered developing one) and "gun free zone" shooting.

If he was expecting armed opposition (even with only 5 rounds of .38 Special) he might have left himself an escape route, or not tried anything at all.
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:28 PM
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That 5 shot snub is just as deadly as that 12 gauge
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1918a2 View Post
First rule of a gunfight. HAVE A GUN. Doesn't matter which as long as You use it properly.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-29-2018, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by washerman View Post
That 5 shot snub is just as deadly as that 12 gauge
Really? So if you had a choice you would go 5 shot snub vs a 12ga?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate. A pistol vs long gun is tough to start with. Then a less than optimum pistol at that. I know, have a gun, but nothing wrong with a "better" gun for these small % chance encounters.
Incidents like this should give all of us that ccw pause & evaluate what & how we carry & how much training, practice & what our skill level is. This was not a punk mugger but stone cold killer. I doubt he would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way. He had a purpose & was going to go thru with it. These are the 1% predators that require a more serious approach to EDC imo. yes small %, but not to the 5 dead.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:05 PM
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Beats a stapler or toner cartridge...or listening to the shooter reload and hoping you are not the next victim.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:08 PM
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Knowing I was up against a man with a shotgun, my preference would be an M-60 with a very long belt. Being as that is not practical, I would use whatever I had, be it a 5-shot snubby, G17, or single-shot derringer. Your other option is to die without a fight.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:09 PM
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I carried a Model 60 for a lot of years. In the last several years I have put it up and now either carry a Glock 19 or a Beretta Nano.
I think the point you're trying to make is a 5 shot revolver is less than optimum in a gunfight.
That may or may not be true, but as other posters have said the main thing in a gunfight is to have a gun.

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Old 06-29-2018, 07:13 PM
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Personally I'd want a battalion of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, A10 close air support some tanks and whatever else I could get. In the absence of that because of daily life I carry a J frame. Hope if bad stuff ever comes my way I have the skill and fortitude to stop it. If a J frame isnt enough a Glock 19 w extra mags might not be enough either. Thoughts and prayers for the victims and their families.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:22 PM
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A 5 shot J-frame in my pocket trumps the 29-2 in the presentation box in my safe nearly every time. Depending on circumstances I may have a Shield or a 1911. But that old J-frame is better than reaching in your pocket and pulling out lint.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:29 PM
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Mindset, judgment and tactics are always more important than marksmanship and firearm. That said, while I rarely carry my Model 37, my tactic would be to close the distance to within 15 yards and attempt to deliver an accurate kill shot. With an active shooter, no verbal warning is necessary. You need to execute or profoundly disable him, not engage him in a gun battle.

And yes, you first need to ascertain whether or not the shooter is wearing armor or at least appears over-dressed for the season. You can't afford to shoot into a vest.

Most people would not have the presence of mind, unless they have been trained, to use a reloading interval as an opportunity to attack the gunman. If he has an autoloading pistol and has some training, well, he can reload in a heartbeat.

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Old 06-29-2018, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMSgt View Post
Your other option is to die without a fight.
^^^^^
This...all day everyday.

Of course no one would choose to go up against a pump shotgun with a Chiefs Special, but put in a situation where that choice is made on your behalf by some murderous miscreant, I’d damn sure make the most of it.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:44 PM
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I put my job at risk by carrying a Kahr .380 to work every day before I retired.

Bohica nailed it. I would rather die fighting than under my desk pleading for my life.

Sure, I would have preferred my 1911, but my situation demanded deep concealment or unemployment. And thank the Lord, I never needed the .380.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1918a2 View Post
First rule of a gunfight. HAVE A GUN.
This.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Really? So if you had a choice you would go 5 shot snub vs a 12ga?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate. A pistol vs long gun is tough to start with. Then a less than optimum pistol at that. I know, have a gun, but nothing wrong with a "better" gun for these small % chance encounters.
Incidents like this should give all of us that ccw pause & evaluate what & how we carry & how much training, practice & what our skill level is. This was not a punk mugger but stone cold killer. I doubt how would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way. He had a purpose & was going to go thru with it. These are the 1% predators that require a more serious approach to EDC imo. yes small %, but not to the 5 dead.
So if the bad guy has a bigger gun than you then you are going to just hide under a desk and wait till you get shot? Even though you have a lethal revolver in your pocket? Sure can't follow that logic. Think I'd be inclined to cock the hammer on my 638 and aim between is eyes on the first shot at least.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:52 PM
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Somebody help me out here. Did someone in the newsroom actually have a snubby? Or is this just more revolver hate. News flash. You're at a huge disadvantage when it's long gun vs short gun. I don't care if the short one's a Glock 17 with a 50rd drum.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:00 PM
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A Chief's Special in the hand or on your person is much more valuable than any other gun that you left at home, in your car, or locked in a drawer.

I subscribe to the Ed Lovette thinking of a J-frame is something you'll like take everywhere with you and thus be armed. It needs to be learned and mastered though. I think a well trained and practiced man with a Chief's Special and a will to survive is more than a match for a jackass with a shotgun.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
What would you recommend?
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:26 PM
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Within shotgun range, I wouldn't want a 5 shot snub nose, 1911 45acp, 17 shot 9mm, or a 44 magnum, but any of them would be far better than nothing.

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Old 06-29-2018, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Really? So if you had a choice you would go 5 shot snub vs a 12ga?
I am mostly playing devil's advocate. A pistol vs long gun is tough to start with. Then a less than optimum pistol at that. I know, have a gun, but nothing wrong with a "better" gun for these small % chance encounters.
Incidents like this should give all of us that ccw pause & evaluate what & how we carry & how much training, practice & what our skill level is. This was not a punk mugger but stone cold killer. I doubt how would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way. He had a purpose & was going to go thru with it. These are the 1% predators that require a more serious approach to EDC imo. yes small %, but not to the 5 dead.
This “stone cold killer” was hiding under a desk when the cops showed up. I think my 5 shot snub would have worked just fine.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:35 PM
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When the music starts, you dance with whom you brung.

Hopefully, you have practiced with the firearm that you have in your possession and can prevail in this deadly force encounter. If not, better to go down fighting and stop/limit further carnage on the part of the perp.

During summer months I carry a 340PD with at least one speed-loader. It's a compromise between concealment/lethality. I practice regularly with this platform and feel confident in my abilities.

I prefer to carry a Springfield Pro or a S & W Model 13 3" when clothing/climatic/mission requirements permit.

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Old 06-29-2018, 09:36 PM
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If I'm being given a choice in facing a guy with a shotgun then I'll pick calling SWAT, and while they deal with the goof I'll go to lunch.

I would be fine engaging the shotgun armed bad guy with a snub nose revolver, but I'm biased. I still carry snub nosed revolvers on the job, and have confidence in my ability to prevail in a gunfight with them. My opinion is you should carry whatever firearm you have confidence with. The main thing, as mentioned by others, is to have a gun. Even a NAA mini revolver or a .25 automatic is better than a sharp stick.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:41 PM
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This occurred in Maryland. Nobody gets a carry permit there. So for them, what kind of pistol to use would be a non-starter issue.

The next best thing would be to slit the shooter’s throat if or when the opportunity presents itself.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:42 PM
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If we are going to speculate, 2 or 3 people with J frames would have been what I would have liked to see. Too bad the odds of that happening are slim and none.
I cant understand why more people have no desire to protect themselves.
Jim
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Title pretty much says it. In that scenario, 12ga against your 5 shot snub. Would you want something else for your EDC?
Of course I would, it's a silly question. I would rather have a rifle or shotgun. But if that's what I have to defend myself with then that's what I'll use and use it to the best of my ability.

The alternative is "I only have a snubby so I'll just lay here and wait to die." That is not an option I would chose.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:14 PM
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I'll take whatever I've got over NOTHING but a prayer! 22 LR, 25 ACP, .380, 9mm or my carry Shield 2.0 .357 Sig. Also, I don't give a damn what the *** has - I'll prevail (mindset). These ***'s are base cowards - when confronted they will soil themselves or hide under a desk. Just bring something!
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:24 PM
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Most shotguns are 5 shot. Unless you practice, it can take some time to reload the mag fully. A 5 shot revolver would IMO be sufficient to take the shooter out while reloading.
I agree with a statement made above that the building was probably a gun free zone. If two people in that office had a ccw and were carrying,it could have been game over for the shooter.
I carried a revolver for years on duty and did not feel outgunned or concerned that I could not handle any situation if needed.
Also, I understand that the newspaper had received threats before.
In my mind it’s the “It will never happen here syndrome “.
My prayers and sympathy go out to all involved!

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Old 06-29-2018, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by washerman View Post
So if the bad guy has a bigger gun than you then you are going to just hide under a desk and wait till you get shot? Even though you have a lethal revolver in your pocket? Sure can't follow that logic. Think I'd be inclined to cock the hammer on my 638 and aim between is eyes on the first shot at least.
Did i say that??? *** is wrong with people? I asked a question, valid question. You want to roll around in the school yard, try someone else.
My point, most of ccw carry something comfy, for the mugger. This required a bit more. Reality, not much harder carrying a g26 vs j-frame, more rds, easier to shoot, better chance of surviving. Events should make us think about how we do things, not shrug your shoulders & talk tough. There are better tools, denying that is more than miopic.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:26 PM
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What would you recommend?
Just about any semiauto, 9m. & up.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:31 PM
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Of course I would, it's a silly question. I would rather have a rifle or shotgun. But if that's what I have to defend myself with then that's what I'll use and use it to the best of my ability.

The alternative is "I only have a snubby so I'll just lay here and wait to die." That is not an option I would chose.
Uh no the alternative is something a tony bit bigger with more rds & a faster reload??
I am not revolver hater at all, not by a mile, but those that claim the 5 shot is all they need, really, you cant think of any better handgun to be carrying at tjat e act moment? You revo only guys are waaaay to sensitive.
Honest question to a tragic event. It should make all of us re evaluate methods, skill level & gear because the 1% shtf does happen.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:43 PM
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Oatmeal is better than no meal.
I'd pull out my snub
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:01 AM
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I see nothing wrong with a 5 shot snubby and 2-5 round speed strips. Cover, concealment then shoot when you have a chance. My hero days are behind me, but I'm not going out without a gun in my hand.
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Old 06-30-2018, 12:31 AM
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Oatmeal is better than no meal.
I'd pull out my snub
I am literally eating a large bowl of plain oatmeal at 9:20 pm as I scroll through this thread and see your post. That is how I roll with keeping 33% of my body weight off for the past 25 months. But that is not how I roll when I am walking down the street to the funky beat. 5 shot snub S&W? Make mine a 500, and not concealed, either. Better yet: 40 Shield, UW ammo. Or G27 or G29 with the larger magazine protruding from the grip.
The recent event in MD: They knew the threat level was above zero, but they chose to not be prepared. It is easier to make believe everything will be just fine and dandy always and everywhere.
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbo728 View Post
If we are going to speculate, 2 or 3 people with J frames would have been what I would have liked to see. Too bad the odds of that happening are slim and none.
I cant understand why more people have no desire to protect themselves.
Jim
This took place in the communist state of MD where the desire to protect one's self is frowned upon by the powers that be.
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:29 AM
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I own about a peck of revolvers of various sizes and have been shooting them for about 40 years. I carry a 638. Shooting a revolver is second nature to me.
I don't feel unarmed with my J frame.
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:42 AM
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I doubt he would have been chased off by a couple rounds coming his way.
Im sorry ...but this line sounds like a spray and pray mentality.

I rather plan on a couple of rounds COM and a third for the head..which I doubt will do better than "chase off"...
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
This occurred in Maryland. Nobody gets a carry permit there. So for them, what kind of pistol to use would be a non-starter issue.
Maryland is a “shall issue” state, albeit with slightly more restrictive laws than say, Florida. So there’s really no excuse that absolutely no one was armed except that journalists are mainly flaming liberals who all think that only police and military should be armed.
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Old 06-30-2018, 06:14 AM
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I am sure that carrying a gun would get you fired. I’m a gun guy to the end, but my current job does not allow firearms. I’m not gonna lose my job and be arrested and explain that to my wife and kids. Much better odds of being discovered and losing my job than being in a work shooting. People need to work to support themselves. There are many places where we voluntarily disarm to avoid arrest.
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Old 06-30-2018, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Inusuit View Post
I put my job at risk by carrying a Kahr .380 to work every day before I retired.

Bohica nailed it. I would rather die fighting than under my desk pleading for my life.

Sure, I would have preferred my 1911, but my situation demanded deep concealment or unemployment. And thank the Lord, I never needed the .380.
Copy that me too on the job front. Always pocket. .32 .380 , 442 , and c even pull off a L C9 in rotation..To get caught would loose job for sure. But forced to do a daily business bank drop usally very late I carried always. Glad I am retired I rarely pocket these days I W B 40 or 45.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:04 AM
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Default Mass vs. Targeted Shooting

It appears that the MD killer targeted that news office over some previous grievance. It wasn't a random attack against anonymous citizens as in the more common mass shooting.

A mass killer often picks a target-rich environment. If you're not the first person he selects, you may have the opportunity to deliver a single accurate shot before he knows of your presence. My guess is that the shooter would suffer from tunnel vision and only see the person in his sights at that instant. You could be standing next to that victim and the gunman may not see you.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:34 AM
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I was not there, I don't know the sequence of how this shooting occurred.


It is my understanding that this mad man used a pump operated shotgun....

What's being described as someone hearing the shooter reloading,
in all likelihood was the action being cycled, not the magazine being replenished.

If a 38 snub was what I had on me at the time...
That's what I would engage with at the first good opportunity to make a disabling shot(s).

With that being said, and what with the foreknowledge of these kind of happenings, comes wisdom.

These kind of things in life...Causes me to choose a 44 or 45 caliber EDC.
I've had lots of jobs, I've got only one life.
And, I've got a woman that loves me and children & grandkids that I adore...
I kinda owe it to them to try and stick around.





Think I could get by with this'n......





But, life's experiences have taught me a few tough lessons.


What I have learned......




.




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Old 06-30-2018, 08:44 AM
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I do not think its possible for a civilian to have an answer for every possible scenario that one may encounter in public. When it comes to these type situations where you have a shooter with an AR, AK, shotgun etc, most common carried concealed firearms are going to be at a disadvantage on a firearm for firearm basis(ignoring the shooters ability). You also have to take into consideration the work environment. A person may not be able to come to school, work or whatever packing full commando style and ready for anything that most likely on a odds basis will never happen.

Scenarios do change when these shooters are engaged.

A 5 shot J frame in the pocket with a speed strip is fine for me in most situations for EDC and in my personal situation being in a hot climate its really the only set up that insures that i am carrying all the time.

If I worked in a higher risk place where my dress code could conceal better like a jewelry store, convenience store etc, I would add something with a higher capacity while keeping the J frame as backup.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kbm6893 View Post
I am sure that carrying a gun would get you fired. I’m a gun guy to the end, but my current job does not allow firearms. I’m not gonna lose my job and be arrested and explain that to my wife and kids. Much better odds of being discovered and losing my job than being in a work shooting. People need to work to support themselves. There are many places where we voluntarily disarm to avoid arrest.
Same here. I'm a commercial driver for a publicly funded company in Illinois, of all places. If I were to get into even a fended-bender it's an automatic drug test and all the entailing contact with law enforcement, paperwork, etc. I couldn't go through that with a concealed gun. And the cops would know right off that I have a permit. It's against state and federal law, I believe, for me to carry on the job.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:51 AM
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It takes no imagination to understand how this could happen at my doctor's office or the office where I used to work (I am retired as of last Friday!!). We all have to make choices in how we prepare for such an event. I would think that reaching into my pocket for my Model 649 would be a lot more effective than reaching for my Swiss Army knife or the Glock 17 I had to leave in the Jeep.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:05 AM
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The guy is a cowardly piece of garbage who did not want to die. If someone pulled out a snubby and fired he would run like a cockroach.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:07 AM
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It takes no imagination to understand how this could happen at my doctor's office or the office where I used to work (I am retired as of last Friday!!). We all have to make choices in how we prepare for such an event. I would think that reaching into my pocket for my Model 649 would be a lot more effective than reaching for my Swiss Army knife or the Glock 17 I had to leave in the Jeep.
Or being limited to calling 911 and hiding. Makes my mind explode.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
This “stone cold killer” was hiding under a desk when the cops showed up. I think my 5 shot snub would have worked just fine.
Only my impression from reading news stories, but my impression is whack job shooters like this guy seem wilt at the first sign of resistance. Not always, but most of the time. Gotta go with the odds.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:11 AM
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I've hear a few comments from posters that a 5 shot isn't going to match a shotgun armed Murderer. Good grief,..... you cannot be serious. ANY firearm in that scenario is far better than no firearms. People are getting way too focused on what weapons are used and can they be matched. I am quite sure one of those folks murdered or wounded would have loved to be able to defend themselves from this Homicidal Coward. Or as another poster commented,..... why wasn't he taking incoming assaults as he was reloading? I'm no Hero but I am not a Coward neither. Live. Go after him with all you have or whatever improvised weapon you can muster. God bless the dead and wounded and I curse this Murderer and may he rot in the sea of fire.
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