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Old 07-04-2018, 06:57 PM
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So you are fine with an onnocent person being shot & kilked for non compliance? Just because a bad shooting is deemed legal doesnt mean it wasnt a bad shooting. People make mistakes I get it, but a mistake of non compliance w/o a true instance of self defense should not be a death sentence. Ccw & leo should be treated the same under the same laws.
*
Actually, the general rule of law as to actual self defense, leaving aside the consideration of LE authority that impact the other lawful uses of deadly force, is in fact the same. A good discussion of it is in the amicus brief I cited, and part of it can be found in New Orleans & Northeastern R. Co. v. Jopes, 42 U.S. 18 (1891) and United States v. Brown, 256 U.S. 335 (1921).

To some extent, as harsh as it sounds, yes, I am ok with it. (I've spent more than 30 years in the LE and prosecution fields. Most dogs, cats, and wild animals are far more valuable to me than most people, and I am not a fan of stupid behavior being rewarded.) While in retrospect the man was, as I very clearly stated above, almost certainly a decent human being with no criminal intent, he, and only he, created the apparent need to use the force by his own bad judgment. The fact that in retrospect the perfectly reasonable perception of the officer was shown to be incorrect is unfortunate, but not one shred of ANYTHING in law or ethics makes the officer's actions unreasonable, unlawful, or a mistake. It sucks, and the poor cop will live with it the rest of his life. Most likely, he will leave police work in less than 5 years.

As Dave and I said in the brief regarding a similarly unfortunate event: "While there is no doubt that from a Fourth Amendment viewpoint, this was a "seizure", it was first and foremost a matter of self-defense under long established legal standards. The standard of “reasonableness” applied to the use of force under the Fourth Amendment is indistinguishable from that applicable to self-defense. A private citizen faced with the same threat would likewise have been justified in shooting the decedent. Certainly a law enforcement officer, one whom society directs to actively seek out and control criminal actors, should be given the benefit of the same analysis.

Most simply “do not know what they do not know” when it comes to the tactical and legal dynamics of close-in killing environments. As such, they superimpose ill-founded notions of reasonableness when judging others’ tactical actions in situations fraught with immediate dangers. In doing so, they judge this dangerous world as they believe it ought to be rather than how it truly is. And, too often, opinion derived from television, the media or even political agitators instead of law, science and proper tactics drive the litigation train." (At this point is footnote 4 of the brief, which reads as follows: Bohrer, Shannon and Chaney, Robert, “Police Investigations of the Use of Deadly Force Can Influence Perceptions and Outcomes,” FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin (January 2010). “For example, when interviewed, one chief of police advised, “it is sometimes easier to go through an officer being killed in the line of duty than a questionable police shooting.” In 1993, Edward F. Davis was an instructor in the FBI Academy’s Behavioral Science Unit when he interviewed the chief about police and the use of force. The chief’s comment could be misconstrued because it was part of a larger dialogue about police use of force and community relations, although it demonstrates perceived and sometimes real concerns. Specifically, the chief was referring to the fact that the department seemed to pull together when an officer is killed and the opposite often occurs when the shooting is questioned in the media.”)

I am often frightened by the ignorance I see here when it comes to the realities of use of force. It is no less bad than the usual ignorance and deliberate falsehoods from the moonbats like Balko, Wexler, and certain pressure groups, and far less excusable. If one is armed citizen, they have the responsibility to actually know the law, know the tactical considerations, know the ballistic realities, and live accordingly. I see a scary number of really unsound comments on this forum on a regular basis, and I often do not reply because I will just make people mad, and maybe make the moderators step in, but not improve their knowledge.

Ziggy2525 also raises some important questions, and cites to a couple of cases that are unfortunate, but also have been taken out of context in the mass media. One of the problems presented is very serious, and in more appropriate settings I have raised a lot of hell about it: Police Command and legal personnel are staggeringly ignorant about the legal, tactical and ethical issues, and too cowardly to stand up for their personnel and explain the truth even if they do. I have seen numerous examples of that. This has left the facially unsound and even knowingly untrue claims of the moonbats unquestioned, which has resulted in the kind of damage we are seeing in California with their legislative proposals, here in Washington, and the overwhelmingly baseless consent decrees sought by DOJ/OCR for the last few years. (Look at the shootings of Lavoy Finicum and Michael Brown - the same knowingly false claims (easily but imprecisely) summarized as "hands up don't shoot" were made, and both of them were essentially the same type of people despite their differences: violent criminals, trying to kill cops. Period.

The Shaver case was created by his own moronic behavior (pointing a "rifle" out a motel window, resulting in scared citizens calling the cops), compounded by what one could conclude was a hopelessly incompetent set of commands from a Sergeant who would probably have been over his head if assigned to paperclip inventory. However, sadly, he moved his hands out of sight in manner consistent with drawing. That's a big deal. Like the decedent in our case, it is not mere "non-compliance" - it is non-compliance in a manner consistent with a violent assault. Let your pants fall - the people who see my hairy butt will be more traumatized than I am.

There are, as I have said, DECADES of hard learned lessons that have taught the practices and tactics involved. These lessons are often based on the death of cops who were too complacent. (Go find a copy of "Officer Down, Code 3" by Pierce Brooks; read the reports on the "Newhall incident"; read the studies the FBI did of cop killers and how they decided to kill cops.) I did not look into the Finch matter as closely, but as I recall, he went outside armed (unlawfully, as I recall; I think he was a prohibited possessor) and again did not comply with lawful commands. The time periods in question are measured in hundredths of seconds.

Are there cases in which LE is flat out wrong? Yes. The incident involving Walter Scott, IIRC - disgraceful. Go read Stamps v. Town of Framingham, 813 F.3d 27 (2016). If one is not using language that would cause our moderators to have strokes as you read it, you don't have an adequate sense of outrage. Even given the tendency of plaintiffs' counsel as a group to lie in LE cases, the event itself is indefensible; the civil defense likewise, and I can't think of any reason why that "officer" (he is not of my tribe) was not fired and prosecuted for manslaughter. That said, the majority of prosecutions of cops are malicious, and the prosecutors should be disbarred. Command officers should have been fired and maybe prosecuted themselves (for violations of state analogues to the criminal violations of civil rights laws - we have one here and I would file it in many of those cases - like Tulsa's abuse of Betty Shelby).

I sometimes cite books and cases here. If you don't obtain and read (and re-read) them, you are probably not getting adequate education. The Patrick and Hall text is vital and simply not optional if you want to have an understanding of the law, tactics, and ethics involved.
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Old 07-04-2018, 07:44 PM
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There is a famous incident here in New Zealand (Aromoana 1990) where an experienced officer did not shoot an offender because he was walking away and not threatening him at the time.

The offender, who had already shot several victims, went on to shoot and kill several more.

Our self defence law is similar to many others. Use of force in defence of self or another.
known offender, I am fine with shooting for non compliance. Unknown person, death sentence for non compliance may be deemed a legal shoot but I dou t a ccw gets the same legal pass. If you are pointed in on your target giving commands, you are 1/3sec to press. Imo, its a skills vs fear concept. If a leo skates onsuch thin evidence, then so should ccw & that is rafely the case. Raw fear is not grounds for SD, even though many leo shootings are just that. Furtive gesture comes to mind. Works for leo, not so much for ccw. Legally the leo often walks but morally, yeah I have issues with it. Protect & serve right????
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:34 PM
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compounded by what one could conclude was a hopelessly incompetent set of commands from a Sergeant who would probably have been over his head if assigned to paperclip inventory.
This is where I believe most of the growing pushback from the public is coming from. If you took a diverse group of non-leo, sober people, college age to senior citizens, I don’t believe they would be able to follow the “simon says” staccato commands being issued by the officers in most of these cases. It’s one thing if the citizen being detained is blatantly disobeying, but if the instructions are delivered by the police in such a way it’s not possible for a normal person, without any law enforcement background to obey them, and it results in a death, that should be criminal.
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Old 07-04-2018, 10:29 PM
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First and foremost, anyone carrying a gun, be it a CCW or a lever action Marlin while deer hunting, must know how to interact with police officers for everyone's safety and benefit. To the police, all persons involved in any way are bad guys until it can all be sorted out.

Second, I'm really annoyed with people carrying guns so casually that they can be so easily lost. Besides this unfortunate soul, we have the recent dancing FBI agent who faces dismissal and a civil judgment for dropping a gun on a dance floor, discharging it when he retrieved it.

A use-of-force situation can begin and end in an infinite number of ways. You may have to run, wrestle some dude, be grabbed by one or more people, have a chair broken over your head and back etc. Once you lose your gun, its up for grabs and may be used against you.
No, everyone is not a bad guy. Some are good some are bad and you have to sort them out. If your defensive position is everyone is a bad guy then you will kill a good guy occasionally and you might even get away with it. But, that won't make it right.
You can assume that one or more might be the bad guys for your proper mindset of sorting it out, but you can't start shooting based on that assumption.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:40 AM
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I think he was being sarcastic with the use of the phrase "crazy idea" - the written word of a forum is not easily parsed for tone.
I believe Doug M nailed it, I too took the comment as a bit of sarcastic levity. I see the same thing fairly often, a decent firearm in a dimestore holster or no holster at all - what are they thinking? Are they thinking?

Also, I don't think anyone on this forum considers Kiwi cop an "outsider."
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:52 AM
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known offender, I am fine with shooting for non compliance. Unknown person, death sentence for non compliance may be deemed a legal shoot but I dou t a ccw gets the same legal pass. If you are pointed in on your target giving commands, you are 1/3sec to press. Imo, its a skills vs fear concept. If a leo skates onsuch thin evidence, then so should ccw & that is rafely the case. Raw fear is not grounds for SD, even though many leo shootings are just that. Furtive gesture comes to mind. Works for leo, not so much for ccw. Legally the leo often walks but morally, yeah I have issues with it. Protect & serve right????
Throughout this thread you have been expressing your displeasure with the police officer involved. You base your entire premise on a video clip produced edited and broadcast by the media, whose purpose is not to inform, but to grab the public's attention.

You are reacting emotionally to a situation that should be judged on facts, which are not provided.

If the shooter was a private citizen (CCW) then I would expect that they be judged the way you want this officer judged.

The law is the law, try to separate your bias against police from your posts.

Maybe some ambitious prosecutor will take your point of view and hang this cop, or try to, to placate the screaming masses.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:37 PM
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....

You are reacting emotionally to a situation that should be judged on facts, which are not provided.
.......
The law is the law, try to separate your bias against police from your posts.

Maybe some ambitious prosecutor will take your point of view and hang this cop, or try to, to placate the screaming masses.
Your objective point is correct. The necessary facts are not provided.

However, it is a bit ironic to accuse the other forum member of bias without leveling the same charge against the many more posters who have expended many words explaining in great detail why it is not the police officers’ fault.

The officers were the professionals on the scene. Since they killed a man who was (objectively at least) not a threat, they failed, and it is their responsibility to explain why that was unavoidable. It may well have been, given the dead guy’s mistakes. Whether circumstances provide them with sufficient evidence to show that is impossible to tell from the video. The investigation will need to determine that. Until then, neither condemnation nor benefit of the doubt are appropriate.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:05 PM
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The officers were the professionals on the scene. Since they killed a man who was (objectively at least) not a threat, they failed, and it is their responsibility to explain why that was unavoidable.
the officers will be judged on what they knew at the time, not what armchair commandos found out afterwards.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:29 PM
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I believe Doug M nailed it, I too took the comment as a bit of sarcastic levity. I see the same thing fairly often, a decent firearm in a dimestore holster or no holster at all - what are they thinking? Are they thinking?

Also, I don't think anyone on this forum considers Kiwi cop an "outsider."
Thanks for the compliment, but yes, like anyone who does not live permanently in the US I am an outsider to your society. I have not experienced, let alone lived, the societal norms that you live under.

At one time my wife and I holidayed annually on Austarlia’s Gold Coast. Anything less than 2 weeks was too short. Anything more than 3 weeks was too long. That was because at that time Australian social attitudes were about 20 years behind ours. What at first was refreshing to experience/remember became a little hard to experience after that period of time.

What the “rest of the world” knows about living in the US comes mainly from TV, movies and books. And not all of them realise that view is coloured by the “world view” of the producers, directors and actors. And most of those visitors to your country who do visit are often contented simply to go to those places of population where the same overall views predominate. Hence the well quoted sense of disbelief in the US “gun culture”.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:26 PM
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...

What the “rest of the world” knows about living in the US comes mainly from TV, movies and books. And not all of them realise that view is coloured by the “world view” of the producers, directors and actors. And most of those visitors to your country who do visit are often contented simply to go to those places of population where the same overall views predominate. Hence the well quoted sense of disbelief in the US “gun culture”.
Great point! I shudder to think that people in other countries that have not met many of us, would believe the caricature of our society that is presented on our sleazy media. It is actually embarrassing to see the drivel that is presented as "entertainment" these days, and once political differences enter the scene, it becomes worse.

Case in point - I have many relatives in a western European country who can't resist commenting unpleasantly on many aspects of US society, based primarily on what they see on TV and read in the so-called news media. I have given up trying to educate them and explain to them that we aren't like what they see presented. No more than a handful have ever been here, and those few keep coming back.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:37 PM
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Your objective point is correct. The necessary facts are not provided.

However, it is a bit ironic to accuse the other forum member of bias without leveling the same charge against the many more posters who have expended many words explaining in great detail why it is not the police officers’ fault.

The officers were the professionals on the scene. Since they killed a man who was (objectively at least) not a threat, they failed, and it is their responsibility to explain why that was unavoidable. It may well have been, given the dead guy’s mistakes. Whether circumstances provide them with sufficient evidence to show that is impossible to tell from the video. The investigation will need to determine that. Until then, neither condemnation nor benefit of the doubt are appropriate.

I don't take lightly the fact that man was killed, whether he was a "known offender", "bad" guy, or a law abiding CCW holder. Those cops will have to account for their actions, whether that is in a criminal or civil court, administratively or within their own conscience.


My post was concerned with the stated belief that the officers would "get away" whereas another person (CCW) would be taken to task.


If neither condemnation nor benefit of the doubt are appropriate, then let's withhold both.
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Old 07-05-2018, 06:02 PM
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Case in point - I have many relatives in a western European country who can't resist commenting unpleasantly on many aspects of US society, based primarily on what they see on TV and read in the so-called news media. I have given up trying to educate them and explain to them that we aren't like what they see presented. No more than a handful have ever been here, and those few keep coming back.

I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:43 PM
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It is not just in America that people buy expensive pieces of junk. That is where “customer service” should come into the equation when buying.

I’m not entirely sure what “crazy idea” you are referring to.
Tell you the truth, Kiwi, I find you more American than most Americans.

But yes, I speak three languages: English, obscenity, and sarcasm. It's fairly common to see someone drop $800-$1000 on a carry gun, and shove it in a $10-$20 holster.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:51 PM
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I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.
It's not?
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:57 AM
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I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.
and its either Reno 911 or Training Day on how police operate; when in fact it a little of both. LOL
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:45 AM
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While many poor decisions led up to this man’s unfortunate death, the one that really matters, the proximate cause, was his choice to carry his gun the way he did, which led to it being dropped on the ground.

The gun was not visible in the early part of the video. It does not appear to have been open carried. At the point where the cops arrive and actually physically interact with the CCW, the gun is visible in the video as if sticking out of or coming out of his pocket. No one is trying to grab it or get it away from him. It appears to be irresponsibly unsecured.

If that gun was properly secured and concealed, not just dropped in his pocket, all his other mistakes leading up to this point in the video would not likely have caused his death. Not having the training and/or presence of mind to not pick up the gun when officers were present was a secondary mistake. Not hearing or understanding the officers’ commands may be understandable on his part for a variety of reasons, none of which matter to the safety of the crowd and the officers.

This was unfortunate, but preventable, and not by the cops. Carrying concealed puts one at a higher degree of accountability for decisions and actions. It is a risk we take because the possible perceived benefits (saving our lives) are greater, and the risks can be dealt with through training and clear headed thinking (not drinking, MYOB). Just carrying a gun does not automatically bestow the skills necessary to avoid a situation like this or avoid responsibility for the aftermath.
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:52 PM
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Excellent post CB3. I saw exactly what you saw.
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It appears to be irresponsibly unsecured.

If that gun was properly secured and concealed, not just dropped in his pocket, all his other mistakes leading up to this point in the video would not likely have caused his death.
This is just one issue I have with pocket carry. If the pocket is large enough to allow easy access, situations like this are possible. If the pocket is small/tight enough to prevent situations like this, it's difficult to get out. A quality holster solves both issues.

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Not having the training and/or presence of mind to not pick up the gun when officers were present was a secondary mistake. Not hearing or understanding the officers’ commands may be understandable on his part for a variety of reasons, none of which matter to the safety of the crowd and the officers.
Indeed a difficult situation. I'm sure the only thought going through his mind was, "Drat (pretty sure he used a different epithet though), I dropped my gun. Can't leave that there." I'll bet he didn't hear the cops at all. I don't blame the police at all in this situation because they couldn't possibly know what his intent was when picking up the gun.

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Just carrying a gun does not automatically bestow the skills necessary to avoid a situation like this or avoid responsibility for the aftermath.
"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

That's my favorite quote concerning guns. Far too many have the idea that because they have a gun, they're safe. Nothing could be further from the truth. I harp on getting training and doing practice a lot and receive a lot of flack for doing so. This particular person is someone who should have known better. His training was for military situations, not general civilian carry. There is a difference.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:40 PM
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Being at the bar in the hood, checking out the women, everyone drinking and packing nines and forties, what could possibly go wrong?
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:59 PM
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In reviewing the facts as we know them, so far, it is clear that the deceased is to blame for what happened. I use the term "blame" loosely and only to reference: a) carrying in a bar, b) inserting himself in a hostile/combative situation while armed, c) carrying in a manner that his weapon was not secure; and, d) not following police commands (even if he did not hear them or assumed they were directed at someone else).

The fact is, as well-intended as the deceased may have been and as good of a person as he apparently was, his actions created this situation and are to "blame". Please note that my use of "blame" is not intended to denigrate this individual in any way. He caused his own demise, unintentionally as it may be. Based on the facts as we know them, with nothing additional to the contrary, I submit that the officers' failing to act as they did would have been negligent and probably even grossly negligent.

With the benefit of hindsight, this is truly tragic. Even with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't make the officers' actions wrong. Sad and tragic? Yes. Wrong? No. Unfortunately these officers will live with this the rest of their lives and even regret it forever. Nothing we or anybody else will say will ever erase the guilt they feel because of what they now know, after the fact.

If new facts come to light, I will happily rescind what I have typed here today. I speculate they will not. Hopefully, his death will cause others to remedy and preclude, in advance, similar actions and behavior.

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Old 07-06-2018, 06:47 PM
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In reviewing the facts as we know them, so far, it is clear that the deceased is to blame for what happened. I use the term "blame" loosely and only to reference: a) carrying in a bar,...
What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:44 PM
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What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.
First, it's a compilation of all of my asserted reasons. To pacify you, remove that one, and all others apply. I probably incorrectly inferred that from what I read about the location. Having said that, drunks celebrating a national championship, while at a bar or a party, tend to behave as drunks. Not always; but, sometimes, like say, this exact situation. I guess he possibly happened upon the bar scene and was never in the bar. If that's the case, once again, I happily and readily remove that from my asserted reasons.

I do know it isn't a crime in many states. I didn't say it was against the law in the state in question here.
I wouldn't even assert that as I don't know. It is irrelevant in this case. Heck, in my state it is illegal to conceal carry in a bar but legal to open carry in a bar. That doesn't make it a good idea if one is inclined to get involved with fights between other drunks. Anyway, like I said, especially if you disagree. Remove that from the other three mistakes he made, in my opinion, and he was the proximate cause.

In my opinion and my opinion only, that is a bad idea. At least in this case, that is the subject matter of this thread, it was clearly a very bad idea.

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Old 07-07-2018, 04:07 AM
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Nothing that I have read or heard so far indicates that Jason Washington (the suspect/victim) was in the bar. I'm not saying he wasn't, just that none of the reports (i'm aware of) have said that he was. None of the videos I have watched show him inside the bar. He may have come just to pick up his buddy and discovered the fight in progress outside the bar.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:47 AM
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What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.
I'll tell you a story I read on these here forums, Rast, and my exceptionally sarcastic response to it.

Guy writes about three times he was in proximity to people being shot. First time, he's in a bar, and some guy walks in and executes a guy sitting and drinking a few stools down. Second time, he's some sort of military police, guy gets into a bar fight and winds up slugging a lady officer. While he's pursuing the guy, the lady's boyfriend drives up and shoots the guy as he's running. Third time--I can't remember. Some idiot got shot in/around a bar.

So the guy writes, "That's why I left Colorado!" See, while I analyzed those three events and came away with "bars", he came up with "Colorado", like it was some big square of no damn sense at all.
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Old 07-07-2018, 08:55 AM
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...
So the guy writes, "That's why I left Colorado!" See, while I analyzed those three events and came away with "bars", he came up with "Colorado", like it was some big square of no damn sense at all.
Until recently my daughter and family were living outside Denver, so I would check out the Denver Post regularly. I’m thinking the guy that came up with “Colorado” might have been on to something.
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Old 07-07-2018, 10:44 AM
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He may have come just to pick up his buddy and discovered the fight in progress outside the bar.
This may be true. There are many other possibilities why he was there.

Personally I don't see a bar as any different than any other place. We talk a lot about our 2nd amendment rights. We talk a lot about how people should blame the actions, not the gun. None of in my mind, none of that changes because a person is in a bar. It's what they do, not where they are that's important.

Yes, people tend to act differently when intoxicated. So what? That doesn't change what I do. It's up to me to be cognizant of what I'm doing with my gun. It's up to me to ensure it's handled safely and securely. It's my fault if I don't do those things.

In my opinion, any law dictating that I cannot carry in a particular place is infringing on my right. That said, there are some places where it makes sense to me to not carry. A bar isn't one of them.

I don't blame this guy for legally having his gun at a bar. I blame him for not controlling it properly, period. And for that lack of control, he has paid the ultimate penalty.
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Old 07-07-2018, 11:28 AM
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It seems a lot of folks are missing the real problem from that incident.

in a bar or not..... if Joe Schmoe was involved in some sort of disturbance and starts reaching for a gun, and the cops say not to, and he keeps reaching for the gun.....

here is some free advice for anyone who needs it. if the cops are around, empty your damn hands and leave them that way. do not reach or even pretend to reach for a gun. this applies in a bar, outside of a bar, near a bar, across the street from a bar, in a town with a bar, in a state that issues licenses to a bar, even if there is no bar anywhere.

the bar had nothing to do with this, reaching for a gun with the cops there did.
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Old 07-07-2018, 01:04 PM
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and its either Reno 911 or Training Day on how police operate; when in fact it a little of both. LOL
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Old 07-07-2018, 01:14 PM
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It seems a lot of folks are missing the real problem from that incident.

in a bar or not..... if Joe Schmoe was involved in some sort of disturbance and starts reaching for a gun, and the cops say not to, and he keeps reaching for the gun.....
I've been carrying for 35+ years and this has always been my biggest fear, especially now in light of my military-induced hearing loss, slight as it is. Even as an instructor I tell people to be prepared for the fact that when law enforcement officers show up, they do not immediately know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:51 PM
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He had to be drunk, why else would he pick up his sidearm after the police telling him not to?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:01 PM
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He had to be drunk, why else would he pick up his sidearm after the police telling him not to?
1. because he was surrounded by an aggressive angry group and he wanted to regain control of his handgun before one of them did, or

2. because of the dynamics of the situation, the noise of people yelling, or some personal hearing issue he may not of fully heard or understood the commands, or

3. because he didn't know the commands for him and not for somebody else in that aggressive angry group, or

4. a combination of the above?
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:39 PM
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1. because he was surrounded by an aggressive angry group and he wanted to regain control of his handgun before one of them did, or

2. because of the dynamics of the situation, the noise of people yelling, or some personal hearing issue he may not of fully heard or understood the commands, or

3. because he didn't know the commands for him and not for somebody else in that aggressive angry group, or

4. a combination of the above?

Taking a gun to a bar is not the smartest thing to do, if you are going to be drinking.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:54 PM
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Taking a gun to a bar is not the smartest thing to do, if you are going to be drinking.
Actually, since bars are where the really mean fights tend to happen, having a gun at a bar seems to be a pretty good idea to me . . .
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:30 PM
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Taking a gun to a bar is not the smartest thing to do, if you are going to be drinking.
I don't know he was in the bar. I believe that has been speculation. None of the reports or articles I've read or the videos I've seen say or show that he was at the bar or drinking. If you have evidence that he was, please share. I'll pass it on to Portland Police for you.

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Old 07-10-2018, 09:39 PM
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This incident occurred at 1:30 AM, outside a bar near a college campus not outside the shooter's home. He was not walking his dog, changing a flat tire, or visiting his mother. In law enforcement, we call that a clue . . .

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I don't know he was in the bar. I believe that has been speculation. None of the reports or articles I've read or the videos I've seen say or show that he was at the bar or drinking. If you have evidence that he was, please share. I'll pass it on to Portland Police for you.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:04 PM
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Or, he could have just been there just to pick up his friend. We don't know.

A clue at best without any supporting evidence at this point. I sometimes do investigations based upon clues, hints, suggestions, and speculations (plus evidence), but convictions should be based on evidence.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:08 PM
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Or, he could have just been there just to pick up his friend. We don't know.

A clue at best without any supporting evidence at this point. I sometimes do investigations based upon clues, hints, suggestions, and speculations (plus evidence), but convictions should be based on evidence.
A: He could have been there to pick up a friend. In the age of Uber, that becomes less likely.

B: He's not on trial here. I'm on the shooter's side, at the moment, because we haven't seen any "evidence," which we won't until a trial with proper instruction from a judge about what the crime is and what we should consider. We're just talking about what happened as it has been publicly reported. Therein lie the clues . . .
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:28 PM
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We're just talking about what happened as it has been publicly reported.
True, and that is what I'm talking about. None of the publicly reported stuff that I have seen indicates that Jason was in the bar or had been drinking prior to the exterior events. He may have been in the bar drinking prior to, or he may not have - I can't tell from what has been publicly reported. Anything prior to the publicly reported events (which are outside of the bar) is speculative by us.

Hopefully we'll learn more.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:00 PM
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Similar reactions after the Las Vegas Police killed Erik Scott at a CostCo in 2010. Vegas Police have a reputation for being a little wound up, but who could blame them in that city? The gun community was universally outraged until the Tox Screen came back for high levels of Morphine and Xanax in Scott. It’s usually a good idea to reserve judgement until the shooting investigation is done.

Costco shooting victim’s family drops lawsuit against Las Vegas police – Las Vegas Review-Journal

Besides the Ferguson MO fiasco, we’ve had four recent police shootings in the Twin Cities that generated National reactions:

1. The Philando Castile shooting - Investigation revealed Castile did not follow orders and appeared to be reaching for his gun. Tragic, but the CCW guy screwed up. Black Lives Matter said it was murder and rioted.

2. The Justine Damond killing by Officer Mohamed Noor investigation revealed that Noor shot because he was startled by Damond’s sudden appearance during a night time response. Noor was “Fast tracked” to get Muslims on the Police Force by the Liberal Politicians, and he wasn’t ready.

3. The Jamar Clark shooting found Clark had assaulted an ambulance crew, and tried to steal the intervening Officers gun. Black Lives Matter said it was murder and rioted.

4. There is another shooting now awaiting investigation results where Police killed a man who was shooting into the air and ground in the city. The local press found a picture of the guy wearing a nice business suit and that’s all they show...The Guy was a common street thug, but they don’t show that.

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Old 07-12-2018, 07:20 AM
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1. because he was surrounded by an aggressive angry group and he wanted to regain control of his handgun before one of them did, or

2. because of the dynamics of the situation, the noise of people yelling, or some personal hearing issue he may not of fully heard or understood the commands, or

3. because he didn't know the commands for him and not for somebody else in that aggressive angry group, or

4. a combination of the above?
Regardless of who the cop was talking to, NO ONE should have picked that gun up! How hard is that?
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:16 PM
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Actually, since bars are where the really mean fights tend to happen, having a gun at a bar seems to be a pretty good idea to me . . .
I don't go to bars. Drinks are cheaper at home and the company is markedly better.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:41 PM
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^^^^^^ DING, DING, we have a winner. ^^^^^^
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