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Old 07-09-2018, 04:38 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The issue is taking a gun into a fist fight. You get blind sided, over whelmed, you brought the only deadly weapon to that fight & now must protect the gun lest it be turned on you. I think the question to ask yourself is would I step in if I was NOT carrying a gun? IMO, Not my fight, call 911.
It stopped being a fist fight when he was on the ground and they started kicking him in the head. At that point it became a deadly assault.

When my now middle age daughter was a senior in high school, one of her friends was murdered in a nice suburban neighborhood about 9 pm. High school party. Three kids, not from the neighborhood, attacked him in the street. The kid was pretty athletic, but not a match for three. They got him on the ground and stomped his head in. People called 911, but no one intervened. The attackers were gone and he was dead by the time the sheriff got there. Attackers were never caught.

I may end up being the dumb a$$ you read about that gets killed trying to help a guy getting his head stomped on. I hope Iím never the guy you read about that could have helped and didnít.

Thatís just me.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:12 PM
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The problem is, the Law has nothing to do with Justice...It’s about assigning fault and punishment. The local County Prosecutor is an Elected position, and things can get political. For example...Let’s say I decide to help the moron holding the little girl. The other two drunk guys are just tipsy enough to charge me and my gun...so I fire a couple of shots and both drunks are wounded.
The Police come and haul me in for questioning. I claim self defense of the one guy and myself, but the County Prosecutor decides that I entered the fray as a willing participant. Why? Because in Minnesota I have a duty to retreat and I did not. I’d need a REALLY good Lawyer now to convince a Jury that I had no choice but to intervene. There is NO good outcome here for my family, me, or anyone else for that matter.

Again, very sad, but life can be pretty harsh sometimes.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:12 PM
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My prime directive is to protect/provide for my family.

I can't do that if I'm dead, or locked up.
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  #54  
Old 07-10-2018, 03:04 PM
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It stopped being a fist fight when he was on the ground and they started kicking him in the head. At that point it became a deadly assault.

When my now middle age daughter was a senior in high school, one of her friends was murdered in a nice suburban neighborhood about 9 pm. High school party. Three kids, not from the neighborhood, attacked him in the street. The kid was pretty athletic, but not a match for three. They got him on the ground and stomped his head in. People called 911, but no one intervened. The attackers were gone and he was dead by the time the sheriff got there. Attackers were never caught.

I may end up being the dumb a$$ you read about that gets killed trying to help a guy getting his head stomped on. I hope I’m never the guy you read about that could have helped and didn’t.

That’s just me.
You missed the point. You wade into the frey, it is still a fist fight, no weapons. You pull a gun, shoot someone unarmed, maybe another, you will have a difficult time with self defense use of deadly force, it is still hands & feet. Yes I am totally aware that many people are killed with hands & feet but that is still a no gun situation until it isn't. Way too many what ifs when you do NOT see it all happen.
That is the fine line you have to walk. if it's me, I know where the line is drawn. If it is someone else, unless I can see the entire thing go down, I am likely NOT wading into a situation where I end up killing a person because that is what it will take to stop some of those ugly hands & feet situations. JMO.
Don't carry into a bar. Don't drink & carry. Your life will be a whole lot safer & easier. If you want a good life lesson in making the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons, read up on Zimmerman.
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Old 07-10-2018, 04:45 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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You missed the point. You wade into the frey, it is still a fist fight, no weapons. You pull a gun, shoot someone unarmed, maybe another, you will have a difficult time with self defense use of deadly force, it is still hands & feet.
...
Fair enough. Humor me by letting me beat a dead horse one more time.

What's your take on waitress that pulled the gun on the guy that punched her co-worker in the face one time. Hands only from the BG. Violent assault, but at least at the point the waitress drew her weapon, not a deadly attack. There was disparity of force between the BG and woman, but that also existed in the bar attack.
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Old 07-10-2018, 05:22 PM
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Fair enough. Humor me by letting me beat a dead horse one more time.

What's your take on waitress that pulled the gun on the guy that punched her co-worker in the face one time. Hands only from the BG. Violent assault, but at least at the point the waitress drew her weapon, not a deadly attack. There was disparity of force between the BG and woman, but that also existed in the bar attack.
Disparity of force is NOT generally allowed to escalate to deadly force. At that point a punch in the face is just battery. It's just very, very grey. Are you willing to kill another person & go thru all that comes with that if you do not see the entire event unfold? I would be hesitant, too many what ifs.
If you step in & the guy turns on you, hands only at this point, your gun is out, you are going to have to shoot him to protect the gun or he takes it from you & beats you to death or shoots you. So now the attack is on you, not the guy that is down. Just hands, no weapon but yours. Oops, you just created a disparity of force?? That my friend is the huge question mark. Yes carrying a gun has a huge responsibility that goes with.
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Old 07-10-2018, 05:59 PM
WuzzFuzz WuzzFuzz is offline
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"WHAT IF?" IF the dog hadn't stopped to take a dump, he'd have caught the rabbit.

Monday morning quarterbacking this, I wasn't there, I can't truly respond as to how I would handled myself in that situation...

Yes as a former LEO it might be hard to just stand by and do nothing..But to draw my concealed weapon to stop a altercation...I'm might be old, and have lost some of my marbles, but I do believe I have enough marbles left up there rolling around to NOT draw my weapon to stop it.

Part of that comes from being a old school cop I guess..I and I think I can speak for many other LEO's and retired LEO's we did not draw our weapons to stop a fight..At the time I was still on as a LEO, putting the wood to one or more yes...Drawing my weapon to stop it, or so called..Shoot into the ceiling to get their attention, NO.

IMO getting a weapon out in a case like this, would be much the same as a LEO shooting at a fleeing car...That's a NO SHOOT SITUATION...No matter they did just hold up the State Bank.

This particular situation given is not the same as if you or I was in a place where a madman was shooting at citizens willy nilly.

Again IMO, stating here on a forum of "What would you do?" is hardly the same, as many other LEO's here having had EXPERIENCE on what to do upon stumbling into or confronting a so called bar room brawl.

My 2 cents worth, (And I'll probably get some change back)


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Old 07-10-2018, 06:17 PM
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There's no particular shortage of otherwise good folks who have ended up incarcerated because they thought they were doing "the right thing", but then discovered that a prosecutor and jury disagreed. Nobody wants to be that person, right?

If you're going to risk your safety, freedom and the financial future of yourself and your family in order to come to the aid of what you think is an innocent third person ... and you somehow think that just because you're lawfully armed that your gun is going to be, or is supposed to be, part of the solution ... you might wish to have a proper lay person's grasp of the laws in your state (or whatever state it is you're visiting).

If you're not a cop, it might be unwise to try and act like one.

If you don't have the training and experiential knowledge needed to safely intervene in some fight or multi-person brawl, and decide whether it's even prudent, are you just going to guess about it? Hope that you're right?

While the word "reasonable" is found in the court room, it's usually carefully defined within the statutes involved, and applied to any given situation by considering the context. Sometimes a judge will end up defining "reasonable" and explaining how may be applied.

On the other hand, trying to apply the term "common sense" may not be as successful as you might hope inside a court room.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:37 PM
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Letís see, youíve been sitting in the bar drinking coffee, right?
In a Wings bar? No, I'm sitting there drinking a Coke at watching the World Cup.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:44 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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I wasn't there so it is completely hypothetical. One question for the folks that say they would just walk away and not offer any assistance, suppose you were not there but your wife was and two men were kicking her in the head, would you hope everyone in the place just walked away or would you hope and pray someone would come to her aid? Just wondering out loud. Again, not sure exactly what I would have done in this situation, don't think anyone would know until faced with it.
Yeah, that's part of the problem with our society today - too many people willing to turn the other cheek, not "get involved", and wait for the government (Police, in this case) to fix things. Sheeple....

Not saying that I would use deadly force, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by and let someone get kicked to death. If it was a child molestor, well, let the courts take care of that. Or they can beat said child molestor to death somewhere else.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:44 PM
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In a Wings bar? No, I'm sitting there drinking a Coke at watching the World Cup.
Watch out for those hooligans!
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:21 PM
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Yeah, that's part of the problem with our society today - too many people willing to turn the other cheek, not "get involved", and wait for the government (Police, in this case) to fix things. Sheeple....

Not saying that I would use deadly force, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand by and let someone get kicked to death. If it was a child molestor, well, let the courts take care of that. Or they can beat said child molestor to death somewhere else.
No it is pure common sense. So you know for a fact the dude getting his head bashed in is the victim right? Oh wait, maybe he was the attacker? Maybe he had pulled a gun or knife or broke a beer bottle over the guys head who is now kicking the poop out of him. So you go all John Wayne & the victim/slash attacker thinks you are helping the guy that just pulled a knife on him, so he now goes after you, maybe with his own gun because he sees yours? Yeah I can't see anything wrong with that scenario. Puzzy, no, smart, yes.
Yes sure if it was my wife or son I would want someone to help then but then I know that they were not the attacker that got thumped. It alweays comes down to do you know what you see is what is actually happening? Unless you are the victim or standing right there when it happens, you rarely actually know. So how many folks are you willing to kill to get involved? it could be several & oh yes, you will likely be seen as responsible for them.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:50 AM
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In most places a bar serving food is NOT a restaurant serving booze. So be careful carrying in the at enviro if your ccw permit does not allow it.
If 51% of their income is from FOOD then carrying is legal here and also in Texas. I don't know about other states. In your state of California I'm sure the laws are different.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:06 AM
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[QUOTE=fredj338;140096364]Yes sure if it was my wife or son I would want someone to help then but then I know that they were not the attacker that got thumped. It alweays comes down to do you know what yo use is what is actually happening? Unless you are the victim or standing right there when it happens, you rarely actually know.

That was my question, yes, YOU would know they are innocent but would anyone else there know? Remember, you are not there. These people don't know your wife or son either. Now, do you still think everyone should turn and leave and not try to help in some way? That's the question that's going on in my mind, what would I do? It complicates things when you picture your own wife or child being the one lying on the floor and you're NOT there to help. Some think go in guns blazing, some think break and run, CYA, others think do what you can without deadly force. Interesting discussion.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:40 AM
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You can tell the child's grandfather didn't beat the guy endangering the kid, cuz he looks too pretty.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:42 PM
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If 51% of their income is from FOOD then carrying is legal here and also in Texas. I don't know about other states. In your state of California I'm sure the laws are different.
Here, even if the bar serves food, if it restricts unaccompanied minors, it is a bar. For me to carry there is in violation of my permit. A restaurant that serves booze is fine. I know, stupid, very fine line but is what it is.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:44 PM
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[quote=joeintexas;140096775]
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Yes sure if it was my wife or son I would want someone to help then but then I know that they were not the attacker that got thumped. It alweays comes down to do you know what yo use is what is actually happening? Unless you are the victim or standing right there when it happens, you rarely actually know.

That was my question, yes, YOU would know they are innocent but would anyone else there know? Remember, you are not there. These people don't know your wife or son either. Now, do you still think everyone should turn and leave and not try to help in some way? That's the question that's going on in my mind, what would I do? It complicates things when you picture your own wife or child being the one lying on the floor and you're NOT there to help. Some think go in guns blazing, some think break and run, CYA, others think do what you can without deadly force. Interesting discussion.
To me it is pretty simple, women & children get diff consideration, even if they could also be the attacker that had the tables turned. Just far too many things to go wrong jumping into a fight between a couple guys. I wouldnt be there armed anyway, so for me a moot point.
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