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Old 07-08-2018, 12:35 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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Default Deadly force justified?/Would you intervene?

This was up on ASP today. A guy in a wings bar took a pretty brutal beating from two others. Lots of stupidity in the video, but at the end of the video, when the victim is down and pretty well out of it, the two guys doing the assault are kicking him repeatedly in the head.

If you were there, legally armed, and for some reason you couldn't get out of the bar when the fight started, at the point the victim was down and getting kicked in the head, two questions...

1) Do you think that level of assault would justify use deadly force in defense of others?

2) If you think it would justify deadly force, at that point would you step in or would get yourself in a defensive position so you could be a good witness?

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Old 07-08-2018, 12:44 PM
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No matter the public arena, if a drunken combat breaks out, with me leading the way, myself and my loved ones are out the kitchen door, delivery door, side door, emergency exit, etc.
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:53 PM
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I remember when this happened. They caught the guy a few days later. That was a drunken brawl and the guy with the kid had just as much part in instigating it as the others. No way I'm getting in that.
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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Letís see, youíve been sitting in the bar drinking coffee, right?
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:12 PM
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Kicking someone in the head (assuming you are wearing shoes while doing so) is in most places assault with the intent to do great bodily injury. Intervention would therefore be legally and morally permissible. Whether it would be SMART for a lawfully armed private citizen is highly questionable. In a perfect world I would say GO FOR IT. In the real world what color you are, what color the bad guys are, whether or not the local prosecutor likes or hates guns and armed citizens and a whole bunch of other stuff come into play. Including, as alluded to above, how much YOU had to drink.
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Rpg View Post
Let’s see, you’ve been sitting in the bar drinking coffee, right?
Maybe. I don't typically drink, but have stopped by bars with friends after an evening out. They have a mixed drink or a beer. I get a coke. I don't think it's that uncommon.

Also, from the description in the article, it sounds more like a wings and pizza place that served alcohol than a bar.
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:24 PM
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Under the terms of my carry license, I can't go into a bar armed.

And I can't drink alcohol at all when armed.

So this wouldn't have happened to me.

If I wasn't there when the fight started, or paying attention, I wouldn't know who the aggressor was. Could be the guy getting the stuffing kicked out of him.

I'd get the heck out, call the cops and let them deal with it.

That's what I pay taxes for.
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:25 PM
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I don't go to bars anymore, but I would try to emulate Robert Kolesar no matter where I may happen to be...

"I figure I'm the person ultimately responsible for my family's safety; that's why I still carry a gun. I'm not working the streets anymore, I'm not really concerned about what people do to each other. I won't get involved in something that's none of my business. This may sound unduly harsh or selfish, but 24 years as a cop has taught me most incidents I've observed may not be what they appear to be initially- and shouldn't rise to the level of my armed intervention. Staying out of conflict is as important as knowing how to confront someone. I'm happily prepared to call 911 or just be a good witness."

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Old 07-08-2018, 02:05 PM
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If I were sleeping at my table and woke up to see someone kicking a disabled person on the floor in the head, I could understand a claim that deadly force might be reasonable to put a stop to that. However, barring intoxication, I can't see why I would be sleeping there. If I had been awake, I would have been long gone.

Does this mean I can't really answer the question posed by the OP?
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:19 PM
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maybe but i aint doing it. sounds like a good way to end up on the wrong side of a cell door.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:23 PM
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I could not, would not, stand by and watch two beat a
downed person to death.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:26 PM
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First of all, I'm not gonna be there to begin with. Not that I'm some goody twoshoes (whoever that is )-I just don't go to places like that.

Secondly, if I did find myself there, when the fight starts, I'm gone, so I won't be there to see the brutality at the end.

So, there ain't much danger of me having to make such a decision.

I noted that one poster suggested it was a pizza/wings-type place that served beer.

I don't generally go to those places either, but the places I go to that serve beer with their pizza and food don't allow patrons to get drunk. Why would anyone go to a wings place, anyway? Sticky, nasty chicken and scantily dressed women-Horrors!).

The bottom line, if there's drunks there at all, I won't be.

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Old 07-08-2018, 02:30 PM
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I might go out and poke holes in their motorcycle tanks so they can't escape.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
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I could not, would not, stand by and watch two beat a downed person to death.
This is my gut feeling about the situation as well...though I fully realize that one might come to regret deciding to intervene.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:32 PM
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I wouldnít be there either, not that Iím some Puritan, but I donít go where drunks or potential drunks may be congregating.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
This was up on ASP today. A guy in a wings bar took a pretty brutal beating from two others. Lots of stupidity in the video, but at the end of the video, when the victim is down and pretty well out of it, the two guys doing the assault are kicking him repeatedly in the head.

If you were there, legally armed, and for some reason you couldn't get out of the bar when the fight started, at the point the victim was down and getting kicked in the head, two questions...

1) Do you think that level of assault would justify use deadly force in defense of others?

2) If you think it would justify deadly force, at that point would you step in or would get yourself in a defensive position so you could be a good witness?

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I just exhaled a very long sigh after reading this....

Being licensed to carry is not a license to enforce law. The conflict has nothing to do with you, stay out of it and be the best witness you can be when law enforcement does show up

OR...

Just leave and go home.... safe.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVshooter View Post
I just exhaled a very long sigh after reading this....

Being licensed to carry is not a license to enforce law.
...
Glad you were able to catch your breath. It doesn't have anything to do with enforcing the law. It has to do with preventing someone from being grievously injured before the police can arrive.

Do you think the waitress in this other thread was OK to draw her pistol ...

pistol packing waitress defends co-worker

Or do you think she should have done nothing since the attack wasn't against her? Just curious about your opinion.
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:27 PM
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Wasn't there a similar situation just recently where the person who stepped in to mediate (with a weapon) was shot and killed by police?
If in the situation described, and I was compelled to intervene, I would likely do so without a weapon, after I had called 911. I don't mean to be selfish, but my days of pulling a weapon to resolve things are more than likely limited to protecting myself or family members from immediate severe bodily injury or death, kidnapping, or rape. In my State, the use of deadly force is justified to protect another person if you believe the intervention is necessary for the protection of the other person and that there is reasonable fear that serious bodily injury or death will result. Keep in mind that the law will judge your actions, and "reasonableness" is the lens through which 'the system' will determine if your actions were necessary. Remember, if you shoot someone, there will likely be someone out there trying their best to convince someone that you were wrong in doing so. Remember, prosecutors, juries, and judges are nothing more than human beings like you and me, and they/we may have very differing opinions on what "reasonableness of using deadly force" really is under a given set of circumstances.
Rest assured, if you pull and/or use a firearm, you will be needing legal defense, and you will need it somewhat promptly.
This whole thing is a sticky one, and when people beyond yourself and family members get involved, it gets even more sticky. I guess the bottom line is that many of us carry in our pockets something that will stop evil people from doing evil things, but remember that it is your story that must convince others that you were right in doing what you did.
Best advice I've likely been given for a situation where you have to use deadly force is "lawyer up, and shut up".
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:51 PM
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what about the safety of the child? what about fighting as a last resort when you can't elude/escape....a classic stage of a couple wusses repeating history by tag-teaming one guy together...sickening, but it has always been this way...note to self.....never assume that holding your child will keep others from trying to hurt you or even your child....get away from the situation if possible(keep your mouth shut at the inset of trouble), and as a last resort-fight back and remember, everything is a weapon, use all weapons as you make a fighting withdrawl with your family....lol

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Old 07-08-2018, 03:53 PM
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When you said " bar " I counted myself out.

Nothing good comes out of a bar fight where weapons are involved.
Going into a bar with a gun is pretty stupid in all but the most exceptional cases.

Using deadly force in a bar defending someone you don't know ( who might even end up testifying against you ) is double-stupid.

What if you found out later the guy on the floor you sided with had been sexually molesting small children for years, and the two guys doing the beating were two of the victim's fathers?
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Old 07-08-2018, 03:59 PM
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Okay, what's a "wings" bar? Odds are I wouldn't be there to intervene.
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:13 PM
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At the end of the day, I have to sleep at night and live with my choices. Allowing people to beat someone to death aint in my "sleep at night" wheelhouse.
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:04 PM
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I wasn't there so it is completely hypothetical. One question for the folks that say they would just walk away and not offer any assistance, suppose you were not there but your wife was and two men were kicking her in the head, would you hope everyone in the place just walked away or would you hope and pray someone would come to her aid? Just wondering out loud. Again, not sure exactly what I would have done in this situation, don't think anyone would know until faced with it.
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:30 PM
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The fool holding the child appeared to escalate the conflict. There is a time to swallow your pride and retreat, which is my plan in almost every situation involving a threat. My general rule is be a good witness.
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:18 PM
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The fool holding the child appeared to escalate the conflict. There is a time to swallow your pride and retreat, which is my plan in almost every situation involving a threat. My general rule is be a good witness.
I agree about him being a fool holding the kid. The "victim" may have totally had an whooping coming, or not. We don't know. No matter how badly he may have "deserved" a beat down, once he was down and they were kicking him in the head, is that still time to be a good witness or is that time to stop it?

I think it's odd the number of people that think the waitress should have shot the guy that punched her co-worker in the face (another thread in this forum), but don't think anyone should intervened for the guy getting kicked in the head.
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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When you said " bar " I counted myself out.

Nothing good comes out of a bar fight where weapons are involved.
Going into a bar with a gun is pretty stupid in all but the most exceptional cases.

Using deadly force in a bar defending someone you don't know ( who might even end up testifying against you ) is double-stupid.

What if you found out later the guy on the floor you sided with had been sexually molesting small children for years, and the two guys doing the beating were two of the victim's fathers?
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:49 PM
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I no longer go to bars either but what blew me away was the guy holding a child engaging those other two guys in the first place. It’s hard to watch to big brave men tag team on one guy, then kick him in the face. That alone would be felonious assault where I live. Since I don’t frequent bars getting involved is a moot point.
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Old 07-08-2018, 07:13 PM
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If I'm understanding this correctly it was a place like Buffalo Wild Wings that serve a ton of wings and also offers beer, cokes, water, etc. I don't know about most folks but I tend to eat at a lot of places that have really good food and also serve drinks. It's my option to purchase a drink or not. If I'm carrying iced tea is just fine. Unless you only eat at fast food joints you probably eat at places that serve beer, doesn't mean you have to order it.
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Old 07-08-2018, 07:18 PM
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This situation is nothing at all like the George Webb Restaurant incident. It’s a drunken brawl between three willing participants. It’s sad, but these drunken brawls happen all the time. I’ve been Carrying for 10 years, and I plan to continue...so I will not be the person introducing a gun into an event where the Restaurant Management and Local Police are actually the responsible parties to deal with it.

I have no interest in partying with a bunch of liquored up townies...or going to jail for it.

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Old 07-08-2018, 07:25 PM
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When I see someone weaving about in traffic and travelling at a high rate of speed I do not attempt to stop their vIehicle nor run it off the road. I put this in the same category. If I were drinking in a biker bar, whether or not I was a member I understand there is some risks involved.
In MT it's illegal for a non LEO to take a weapon in a bar and drilled into every CCW class taught. By weapon I assume a gun even if I have other items I can use as a weapon. #2 pencil, belt, etc.
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Old 07-08-2018, 07:48 PM
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There were seven adults in that mess. SEVEN. You want to assume which "sides" they're all on? Also, you don't have any way to know if any, or how many, of them may be carrying a weapon (like a knife or gun).

A normal LE response, presuming an adequately staffed shift and available units, to a reported disturbance/fight like that is usually a minimum of 2 cops, preferably 3, to respond to that sort of mess. That's still going to be inherently dangerous for them, too.

You want to jump in solo?

If you're asking about using deadly force, how about looking at it this way ...

Do you really expect cops responding to that sort of bar fight to use their guns to stop that sort of fight?

If someone is going to want to assume the responsibility to be lawfully armed in public, unless they want to discover the critical shortfalls of their knowledge and decision-making abilities the hard way, it might be prudent to find some sort of training and/or legal advice to help them prepare to make the sort of informed decision. One which hopefully helps keep them out of jail, out of civil court, out of the hospital, etc.

Then, there's always the risk of being the "man with a gun" at the scene of disturbance call, especially if a caller talking to Dispatch says some's pulled a gun. Then, you may not be able to be identified as the "good guy" by the arriving cops before all they see is GUN.

Also, if you're not usually involved in such chaotic and dynamic situations, you might not realize that as your pulse sky rockets, and the hormonal fear response kicks in, you may experience one or more of the types of sensory deficit problems.

Things like an attention deficit (tunnel vision) and auditory exclusion (don't "hear" sounds outside a narrow focus), which means you don't see/realize the cops have arrived and are yelling at you to drop the gun. May not even hear their gun shot(s), either.

Off-duty cops can get seriously hurt or killed jumping right into the thick of things on their own time, when they're "out-numbered" and don't know the circumstances, the other participants (or whether there's another couple of them hanging back), or whether anyone's armed.
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Old 07-08-2018, 07:53 PM
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After viewing the video, I have to say that anyone who intervenes deserves what they get, be it jail, a medal for valor or a knife in the spleen from one of the brawlers.

But, me? I am calling 911 on my way out the door...
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:00 PM
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The peace maker often gets the most lumps. Call 911, intervene verbally, maybe. The beatee kinda brought it on himself, (while holding a child) maybe some sense got knocked into him. He never looked unconscious to me. Add a gun into that mess, NO WAY! A job for a Leo or bar staff.
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:00 PM
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My head says no, but I believe I would step in to stop someone from being murdered. (Putting the boots to a downed guy's head is attempted murder.) I just know how I am.

I'm retired from the cop business, but not from the human race.
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:04 PM
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Get yourself and family out of a dangerous situation. There is even a chance the person intervening can be charged with brandishing a weapon depending on the state laws. Furthermore, if a shot is taken your life will never be the same. You run the risk of lawsuits, hitting a bystander, being shot yourself by someone thinking you are the aggressor... Like some members have stated if you are not an active duty LEO you may find yourself in big trouble.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechvar View Post
This situation is nothing at all like the George Webb Restaurant incident. Itís a drunken brawl between three willing participants. Itís sad, but these drunken brawls happen all the time. Iíve been Carrying for 10 years, and I plan to continue...so I will not be the person introducing a gun into an event where the Restaurant Management and Local Police are actually the responsible parties to deal with it.

I have no interest in partying with a bunch of liquored up townies...or going to jail for it.
The local police are NOT responsible parties. They do what they can when they get there, which is usually too late to make a significant difference in the short-term outcome.
Only in the most perverted locations are the restaurant management responsible parties, and then only legally, not morally.

I do not disagree with your conclusion.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:56 PM
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I'm 70 y/o. I haven't been in a fight since BCT. LOL.

I haven't broken up a fight since I retired from teaching.

i don't go to bars. I don't hardly drink anymore and I don't drink at all when carrying.

If I see 2 nitwits fighting I would call the police.

If I happen to be with family I would not leave their side as we calmly exit.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:12 PM
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At the end of the day, I have to sleep at night and live with my choices. Allowing people to beat someone to death aint in my "sleep at night" wheelhouse.
And my family must also sleep at night and live with my choices. Going home safely is my only option. If I have to stop the fight to get out, so be it. Otherwise, I'll read about it tomorrow . . .
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:12 PM
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At this stage of my life the likelihood of me witnessing an act like this in a bar is slim to none. In the very unlikely event it did occur I would without hesitation assist any unconscious or unable to defend themselves individual from being repeatedly kicked by multiple men. I need
Sleep at night and face the mirror in the morning.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:16 PM
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Duplicate post

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Old 07-09-2018, 01:39 AM
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Glad you were able to catch your breath. It doesn't have anything to do with enforcing the law. It has to do with preventing someone from being grievously injured before the police can arrive.

Do you think the waitress in this other thread was OK to draw her pistol ...

pistol packing waitress defends co-worker

Or do you think she should have done nothing since the attack wasn't against her? Just curious about your opinion.


The scenario you mentioned was that of being a witness and not that of a victim of a vicious assault.. Jumping into a unknown situation with a drawn firearm is IMHO irresponsible & stupid not to mention dangerous.

I'm licensed to carry to protect myself or loved one that is with me from imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm. Anything beyond that is a possible one way trip to court. I don't know about you pal... but I'm going home to my family.

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Old 07-09-2018, 06:40 AM
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Two words ...... "cell phone"

call 911 on your way out the door.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:32 AM
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"What if's" aside, insert myself in someone else's fight? Extremely doubtful. First, taking on multiple opponents only works in Bruce Lee movies. Second, my CPL was issued for self defense/personal protection. Hard as this is to watch, it is neither. Third, carrying in a bar here in Michigan is a no-no. If you think you can glean enough data to prove in court the establishment served 51% food that night, do your thing.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:55 AM
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Disclaimer: These answers are purely based on my opinion and do not necessarily reflect or adhere to the laws in your area regarding the defense of others. Furthermore, these answers were made point blank without any deep thought or consideration as that is how one would be forced to approach the issue in a real life scenario.

Quote:
1) Do you think that level of assault would justify use deadly force in defense of others?
Yes, repeated blows to the head of a downed man (especially by 2 or more people) could easily result in the victim's death or permanent disability, ergo I think that use of deadly force is justified.

Quote:
2) If you think it would justify deadly force, at that point would you step in or would get yourself in a defensive position so you could be a good witness?
Immediately. Hesitation on my part could mean the difference between life and death for the victim, the longer I wait, the more he has to suffer and the closer he may be to being dealt a fatal blow.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:26 PM
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Maybe. I don't typically drink, but have stopped by bars with friends after an evening out. They have a mixed drink or a beer. I get a coke. I don't think it's that uncommon.

Also, from the description in the article, it sounds more like a wings and pizza place that served alcohol than a bar.
I probably wouldn't have been there with a gun as it is against the parameters of my ccw permit to be in a bar with my gun. Stuff like that is why I stay out of bars, gun or not.
As to do you get involved. What did you see, start to middle to finish? That is the problem with 95% of these type of decisions, you just rarely know what you see is actually what is happening, especially in a bar fight. Jump into that, bring a gun to a fist fight, you could be seen as the aggressor if you end up shooting someone to protect the gun.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by joeintexas View Post
If I'm understanding this correctly it was a place like Buffalo Wild Wings that serve a ton of wings and also offers beer, cokes, water, etc. I don't know about most folks but I tend to eat at a lot of places that have really good food and also serve drinks. It's my option to purchase a drink or not. If I'm carrying iced tea is just fine. Unless you only eat at fast food joints you probably eat at places that serve beer, doesn't mean you have to order it.
In most places a bar serving food is NOT a restaurant serving booze. So be careful carrying in the at enviro if your ccw permit does not allow it.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:35 PM
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Just because you carry, doesn't mean you have to pull it out. You can yell loudly, hey, what the #$%^ you doing?

Many times verbal intervention will stop the action, meanwhile, you are on 911 and family has backed away. If they advance, you can prepare to draw, likely they will see that.

Steps to confrontation are not just pull and run into the fray for a shooting...
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:50 PM
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I'm like most of the folks here that have responded against using their weapon. I wouldn't either pull out mine either. My reason is that I really don't know what started the fight or who was to blame for doing it. Plus, I have a distinct lack of trust of Courts and Juries. We are supposed to be judged by a jury of our peers. Well, my IQ is 130, or it was about 35 years ago. The common person nowadays doesn't come close to that, due to the lack of ability in our education system, and lack of effort on the part of students. I seriously doubt if there s a jury in this country that has more than 1 or 2 people that have been schooled in logic.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:24 PM
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I might try to get the child clear and out of danger. But intervene? Not hardly. I've actually seen a person trying to break up a fight get the holy hell beaten out of them by both sides.
Then introduce a gun into this mess? Oh Hell NO!.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Weimar View Post
Just because you carry, doesn't mean you have to pull it out. You can yell loudly, hey, what the #$%^ you doing?

Many times verbal intervention will stop the action, meanwhile, you are on 911 and family has backed away. If they advance, you can prepare to draw, likely they will see that.

Steps to confrontation are not just pull and run into the fray for a shooting...
The issue is taking a gun into a fist fight. You get blind sided, over whelmed, you brought the only deadly weapon to that fight & now must protect the gun lest it be turned on you. I think the question to ask yourself is would I step in if I was NOT carrying a gun? IMO, Not my fight, call 911.
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