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Old 07-10-2018, 09:17 AM
GOV5 GOV5 is offline
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Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted?  
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Default Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted?

It's bad enough that regular citizens can't go through NJ or NY with concealed carry licenses, but how about you Retired/Onduty LEO's? That's ridiculous!

From other Forums, I have read that CCW carriers have checked with NY and were told " Don't even THINK about coming into and through NY carrying a gun", even with a CCW.

So my question is this: Why doesn't the US Attorney General not prosecute the States of NJ & NY for not conforming to the laws of The UNITED STATES? I am sick of States that think they re above Federal Law!
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:24 AM
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Yeah, it's a bummer that the Constitution limits what Congress can do and leaves a lot up to the individual states to decide for themselves, ain't it? Congress is so tuned-in we should just let them decide for everyone, eh? If we'd just let them, they could take care of us all...

My point is, the citizens of NY and NJ can change their situation any time they want to. I am willing to leave it up to them.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:58 AM
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Having no reason to go to/through either, I'll leave fighting that monkey to the citizens of those states. SCOTUS will have to decide that--if it would hear the case.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
Yeah, it's a bummer that the Constitution limits what Congress can do and leaves a lot up to the individual states to decide for themselves, ain't it? Congress is so tuned-in we should just let them decide for everyone, eh? If we'd just let them, they could take care of us all...

My point is, the citizens of NY and NJ can change their situation any time they want to. I am willing to leave it up to them.
The OP isn't arguing that the people of those states shouldn't attempt to change the law(s). It also isn't an argument for taking away State's Right's, not really. The OP is arguing why the Federal DOJ doesn't prosecute States, when they violate Federal Law, on a matter of which the Federal Government has preemption on.

The problem @GOV5, is that this is one area, Concealed carry, etc that the Federal Government does not have preemption, and it falls within a State's Jurisdiction. What the Federal DOJ CAN do is challenge said laws for their Constitutionality. That is somewhat rare though. More often a 'test case', an arrest under the law, is challenged and appealed, until SCOTUS hears it. SCOTUS, has been very picky about what they have heard and ruled on. Part of that is the now retiring Kennedy was never a sure 2A friendly vote (imho).

But, that is about to change soon, as Kennedy retired, and they will soon have an, imho, strong 5 Justice side in favor of 2A rights. BUT, they are also Originalists/Constitutionalists, most of them. As such, they firmly believe SCOTUS isn't there to 'make law', but interpret it based on the original Constitution. So, they will likely not make broad reaching rulings.

That said, NY laws seem to me, to be very like what Heller ruled against in D.C. These types of Justices often love to stick to precedents as well. So, there is a good chance.

Now @Pisgah, it is easy to say it is up to the people of NY and NJ to change their 'fate'. But, it doesn't really take into account reality, particularly in States with a large, progressive voting Urban area, like NY, NJ and Illinois.

Here in Illinois, we have a majority of the area of the state that are very 2A friendly and supportive. However, we have Cook County and Chicago, with their political corruption, majority of population, and way too much political influence at the state level. This is why we have in some ways, more draconian gun laws than NY or NJ (we have to have a license to buy ammo, guns, many accessories, that gets us a nightly background check 360 nights a year).

The Cook County/Chicago Political machine has so much power, that republicans from other areas HAVE to negotiate on everything, or NEVER get anything passed at the State level.

I have no idea if NY or NJ is similar, but I got to think, it is hard to fight against NY City at the state level.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:07 AM
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I am sick of States that think they re above Federal Law!
So you're against States' Rights, correct?
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:13 AM
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It's bad enough that regular citizens can't go through NJ or NY with concealed carry licenses, but how about you Retired/Onduty LEO's? That's ridiculous!
I'm a retired LEO and can carry in NY and NJ because I qualify under LEOSA.

(The only handgun restriction in NYC that pertains to my carry is magazine capacity. NYC caps it at 10 if you didn't retire from LE while working in NY. So while I worked in NYC as an LEO early in my career, I didn't retire while still employed there. Thus, I am limited to a 10 round magazine.)

If I relied solely on my state issued license I would not be able to carry in NY or NJ at all.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:28 AM
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So you're against States' Rights, correct?
What States Right? There is no State Right that goes against Federal Law. UH, that kinda happened down here in SC and MS a few years ago. It was determined that one man can not OWN another. Do you still want to see THOSE States Rights defended? I don't think so!

So, you see, it isn't about States Rights at all. But there are plenty of laws passed where individual States didn't like them and thought it infringed upon their domain, but it didn't matter. The laws were passed anyway and became Federal Law of the Land.

And yes, I against States Rights if I, traveling to a Friendly State but have to go through a NON-Friendly State to get there. That's where it becomes an issue with me. For instance the Northeast for example. I can't get to Vermont unless I go through New York. I shouldn't have to put up with NY's B.S. to go to Vermont.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:37 AM
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Now @Pisgah, it is easy to say it is up to the people of NY and NJ to change their 'fate'. But, it doesn't really take into account reality, particularly in States with a large, progressive voting Urban area, like NY, NJ and Illinois.

Here in Illinois, we have a majority of the area of the state that a

The Cook County/Chicago Political machine has so much power, that republicans from other areas HAVE to negotiate on everything, or NEVER get anything passed at the State level.

I have no idea if NY or NJ is similar, but I got to think, it is hard to fight against NY City at the state level.
So, evidently you are not only opposed to states being able to decide for themselves, you also oppose a majority being able to vote their will.

I am truly sorry for folks who live in such areas, but the fact is they have two choices -- either move, or campaign to change hearts and minds and create a majority that will go the other way. They should NOT count on Congress or the Justice Department coming in to solve their problems.

Our local city government is as corrupt and incompetent as you can find in the US -- yet, a large majority of our citizens have voted time and again to keep the bumbling crooks on City Council in office. I don't like it -- I vote against them, and I constantly campaign among fellow citizens to put the pressure on. But there's no way the state or federal government is going to come in and fix it to suit me, and I don't want them to.

It's part of the deal when you have a republic.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:39 AM
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cybermgk: "The OP isn't arguing that the people of those states shouldn't attempt to change the law(s). It also isn't an argument for taking away State's Right's, not really. The OP is arguing why the Federal DOJ doesn't prosecute States, when they violate Federal Law, on a matter of which the Federal Government has preemption on."

Thank you for your understanding. That's exactly what I was saying!
As many of you here probably already know, the U.S.House passed a bipartisan bill on total reciprocity for the entire Country a few years back. Harry Reid refused to bring it to the floor of the U.S. Senate. By the way, it passed by a 2:1 margin, so it was heavily favored by both sides of the political divide. It would have solved all our problems going from one state to another. That's not the way I would like to get reciprocity( I'd prefer from the Supremes), but if that's the only way we can get it, I'd be satisfied.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:13 AM
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The Second Amendment does not stop at the border of NY or NJ and if those States choose to ignore said "right", then the Fed's should take them to task. I, too, am covered by LEOSA, but choose not to participate and furthermore feel absolutely no need or compulsion to travel or spend my money in such States.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:17 AM
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You are incorrect. ALL active duty LEO’s can carry in New Jersey and New York...including NYC. In addition, retired LEO’s who qualify pursuant to LEOSA can carry there.

I visit New York often...and will be in NYC for the 9/11 Memorial Ride in August. Will be in New Jersey, too.

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It's bad enough that regular citizens can't go through NJ or NY with concealed carry licenses, but how about you Retired/Onduty LEO's? That's ridiculous!
...
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:17 AM
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The Second Amendment does not stop at the border of NY or NJ and if those States choose to ignore said "right", then the Fed's should take them to task. I, too, am covered by LEOSA, but choose not to participate and furthermore feel absolutely no need or compulsion to travel or spend my money in such States.
I might not participate either...but I have an aging mother in one state and family in the other. I'm not going to cut my nose off to spite my face.

Rather than fly and put myself at the mercy of the TSA and airlines, I just suck it up, hold my nose and drive back up...visit with family or attend a function, and get back in the 4Runner and drive back down.

I agree that it may not be fair, but I do everything I can and contribute money to the cause of making it fair for everyone...and vote in line with my conscience in that regard.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:29 PM
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So, evidently you are not only opposed to states being able to decide for themselves, you also oppose a majority being able to vote their will.
Please do not put words in my mouth. WHERE above did I speak against State's Rights? Where did I say I am against a majority voting it's will? The answer is nowhere.

But, the people do not write the laws. At State level, it is 'elected' representatives. At Municipality levels it is often small boards, or for big cities 'elected' representatives.

All, I pointed out was that there ARE situations, where one large population center can rule those state votes, because of the vast majority of representatives they have compared to the rest of the state. EVEN when those elected representatives are legitimately voted in, that can lead to some democratically, legally created laws that really don't represent a barely minority of the people, as often urban and rural areas have vastly different wants, needs and viewpoints.

BUT, when they are corruptly elected, and done so to facilitate an even smaller groups agenda, it is bad. This is my point. I have very little ability to affect elections outside my district/area.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:43 PM
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*sigh* So much wrong, so little time.

(1) I'm a private citizen, and I have an NY CCW. 24/7, 365 EDC.

(2) My NY permit isn't valid in your state, either. Reciprocity, how does it work?

(3) LEOSA also works, in both states.

(4) CCW =/= 2A, according to the courts.

(5) We'd just love to "change our situation", but unfortunately the 49% of us with a brain in our heads are a little outweighed by the 51% that live in NYC and Long Island.

(6) ^^ Same as Colorado, California, Nevada, and Florida. And pretty soon, your state if all you do is sit on your butt.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:57 PM
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It's a shame that some states can openly and blatantly defy the Constitution and get away with it. I drive to Maryland once a year for a conference. I'm only in the state a few hours but from everything I've seen I'm banned from possessing a firearm, even if it's locked in the trunk.
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:10 PM
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:47 PM
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Lets not forget Ma. Does not recognize other state permits and became a "may issue" state for long guns as well.
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Old 07-10-2018, 05:52 PM
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I'm a retired LEO and can carry in NY and NJ because I qualify under LEOSA.

(The only handgun restriction in NYC that pertains to my carry is magazine capacity. NYC caps it at 10 if you didn't retire from LE while working in NY. So while I worked in NYC as an LEO early in my career, I didn't retire while still employed there. Thus, I am limited to a 10 round magazine.)

If I relied solely on my state issued license I would not be able to carry in NY or NJ at all.
The first time I knew we were going to NY I got myself qualified under LEOSA (10 years ago) and have qualified every year since b/c I did not want to take any chances. My EDC is a j frame so I should be OK w/the round limit thing, but I always swap out my carry ammo for lead round nose if going to NJ even though I’ve been told LEOSA certified people are exempt.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:31 PM
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The first time I knew we were going to NY I got myself qualified under LEOSA (10 years ago) and have qualified every year since b/c I did not want to take any chances. My EDC is a j frame so I should be OK w/the round limit thing, but I always swap out my carry ammo for lead round nose if going to NJ even though I’ve been told LEOSA certified people are exempt.
You are correct, OC. The round issue has been settled even if NJ doesn't want to hear it. The problem is that they could still make you take the ride and ruin your day even though it'll come to naught. They're funny that way. Not funny ha-ha.

FWIW, my understanding from colleagues in NJ (and environs) is that Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty are not looked upon with the stink eye by NJ LE. (Not that that is a recommendation to do other than what you are already doing.)

(For the record, I've had a lengthy and extensive discussion with counsel from LEOSA insurance carrier FEDS regarding this matter within the past several months. So I'm pretty current.)
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:52 PM
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NJSP Firearms unit ok'd Hornady Crital Defense/Duty, Federal Guard Dog, the fully jacketed expanding, as well Corbon PowRball. The instructor at my LEOSA class who is now a Judge advised that the law had been repaired ref this but the NJ AG may not see it quite that way. I also do not care to argue the case at the side of the roadway so I switch out ammo when forced to go back. Great state other than the laws and Politicians.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:21 PM
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You don't seem to understand one of the FEW rights the states seem to be left is the right to regulate firearms MORE strictly.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:42 PM
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You don't seem to understand one of the FEW rights the states seem to be left is the right to regulate firearms MORE strictly.
If states don't have the right to step on the First Amendment, then they certainly don't have the right to step on the Second!
The Second protects the First.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:03 AM
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You don't seem to understand one of the FEW rights the states seem to be left is the right to regulate firearms MORE strictly.
Educate me please, where in the second amendment does it say that the states may place regulations or restrictions on firearms?
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:10 AM
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District of Columbia vs Heller.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:42 AM
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The OP isn't arguing that the people of those states shouldn't attempt to change the law(s). It also isn't an argument for taking away State's Right's, not really. The OP is arguing why the Federal DOJ doesn't prosecute States, when they violate Federal Law, on a matter of which the Federal Government has preemption on.

The problem @GOV5, is that this is one area, Concealed carry, etc that the Federal Government does not have preemption, and it falls within a State's Jurisdiction. What the Federal DOJ CAN do is challenge said laws for their Constitutionality. That is somewhat rare though. More often a 'test case', an arrest under the law, is challenged and appealed, until SCOTUS hears it. SCOTUS, has been very picky about what they have heard and ruled on. Part of that is the now retiring Kennedy was never a sure 2A friendly vote (imho).

But, that is about to change soon, as Kennedy retired, and they will soon have an, imho, strong 5 Justice side in favor of 2A rights. BUT, they are also Originalists/Constitutionalists, most of them. As such, they firmly believe SCOTUS isn't there to 'make law', but interpret it based on the original Constitution. So, they will likely not make broad reaching rulings.

That said, NY laws seem to me, to be very like what Heller ruled against in D.C. These types of Justices often love to stick to precedents as well. So, there is a good chance.

Now @Pisgah, it is easy to say it is up to the people of NY and NJ to change their 'fate'. But, it doesn't really take into account reality, particularly in States with a large, progressive voting Urban area, like NY, NJ and Illinois.

Here in Illinois, we have a majority of the area of the state that are very 2A friendly and supportive. However, we have Cook County and Chicago, with their political corruption, majority of population, and way too much political influence at the state level. This is why we have in some ways, more draconian gun laws than NY or NJ (we have to have a license to buy ammo, guns, many accessories, that gets us a nightly background check 360 nights a year).

The Cook County/Chicago Political machine has so much power, that republicans from other areas HAVE to negotiate on everything, or NEVER get anything passed at the State level.

I have no idea if NY or NJ is similar, but I got to think, it is hard to fight against NY City at the state level.
The laws passed in NY come from NYC. Most of the residents of NY do not approve of the SAFE Act, but it passed anyway. If you even get a pistol permit in NYC, it takes 6-12 months, cost hundreds of dollars, and is frequently denied. Carry permits are only given to the rich and famous. Robert Deniro has one. So does Donald Trump. And anybody with a pistol permit or any kind is subject to random inspections by the police to verify the gun is stored correctly (meaning locked up and with a trigger lock on it). Refusal to let them in could result in revocation or permit.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:18 PM
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The laws passed in NY come from NYC. Most of the residents of NY do not approve of the SAFE Act, but it passed anyway. If you even get a pistol permit in NYC, it takes 6-12 months, cost hundreds of dollars, and is frequently denied. Carry permits are only given to the rich and famous. Robert Deniro has one. So does Donald Trump. And anybody with a pistol permit or any kind is subject to random inspections by the police to verify the gun is stored correctly (meaning locked up and with a trigger lock on it). Refusal to let them in could result in revocation or permit.
NY Judges and Pol's are left wing and quiver in their boots under Cuomo. System is BROKEN! But this is not just in NY & NJ...... it will spread to what was currently Firearm Friendly States as soon as the Dem's get control of the WH again.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:58 PM
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"shall not be infringed"
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:04 PM
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Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted? Why isn't NJ & NY prosecuted?  
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Even active LEO who live in NJ must go through a arduous process that takes several months to purchase a pistol. Same as non LEO.

This must make the citizens feel safe from the police. Glad I moved to Georgia 8 years ago.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hoosierone View Post
"shall not be infringed"
Unfortunately for us, those words are not as strong as public opinion. These days public opinion can dictate what Cities and County's obey and ignore.

Remember Prohibition? The 18th amendment never "took" because the public simply didn't want it.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
*sigh* So much wrong, so little time.

(1) I'm a private citizen, and I have an NY CCW. 24/7, 365 EDC.

(2) My NY permit isn't valid in your state, either. Reciprocity, how does it work?

(3) LEOSA also works, in both states.

(4) CCW =/= 2A, according to the courts.

(5) We'd just love to "change our situation", but unfortunately the 49% of us with a brain in our heads are a little outweighed by the 51% that live in NYC and Long Island.

(6) ^^ Same as Colorado, California, Nevada, and Florida. And pretty soon, your state if all you do is sit on your butt.
IMHO, IF YOU ARE AN MS-13 GANG MEMBER ON LONG ISLAND, NY, YOU CAN CARRY WHATEVER YOU WANT, WHENEVER AND WHEREVER YOU WANT---OR SO IT APPEARS......
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hoosierone View Post
"shall not be infringed"
The word "shall" is a key component of the second amendment. My attorney explained to me the difference between "may" and "shall" years ago.

"May" indicates flexibility, whatever is being referred to may be changed at some point and its enforceability is also subject to change.

"Shall" is concrete, it is an absolute. There is no flexibility when the word "shall" is used. Therefore, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is absolute, so laws and ordinances that restrict this right are unlawful and unconstitutional. Getting the courts to actually uphold this portion of the second amendment is difficult as so many people want to alter or reinterpret the amendment.

Last edited by stansdds; 07-13-2018 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stansdds View Post
The word "shall" is a key component of the second amendment. My attorney explained to me the difference between "may" and "shall" years ago.

"May" indicates flexibility, whatever is being referred to may be changed at some point and its enforceability is also subject to change.

"Shall" is concrete, it is an absolute. There is no flexibility when the word "shall" is used. Therefore, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is absolute, so laws and ordinances that restrict this right are unlawful and unconstitutional. Getting the courts to actually uphold this portion of the second amendment is difficult as so many people want to alter or reinterpret the amendment.
Yes, but...

Originally, the constitution didn’t apply to the states. The 14th amendment changed that, but not all the amendments were considered included. Over time, more and more have been. IIRC, that’s called the “incorporation doctrine.” I think Heller fully incorporated the 2nd amendment, but pretty sure there’s nothing there covering CCW or posession outside your home. Could be wrong.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:13 AM
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Yes, but...

Originally, the constitution didn’t apply to the states. The 14th amendment changed that, but not all the amendments were considered included. Over time, more and more have been. IIRC, that’s called the “incorporation doctrine.” I think Heller fully incorporated the 2nd amendment, but pretty sure there’s nothing there covering CCW or posession outside your home. Could be wrong.
I would disagree with the concept that the constitution did not originally apply to the states. If that were the case, then there would have been no Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) and the constitution would have not likely been ratified by the thirteen original states.

The 14th amendment, specifically section I, reaffirms the Bill of Rights and that it applies to all citizens of the U.S. This was deemed necessary as the former Confederate States would not likely (and in reality, did not) apply laws equally, but would continue with segregation and not recognizing the rights of minority citizens.
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Old 07-14-2018, 10:21 AM
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I would disagree with the concept that the constitution did not originally apply to the states. If that were the case, then there would have been no Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments) and the constitution would have not likely been ratified by the thirteen original states.

The 14th amendment, specifically section I, reaffirms the Bill of Rights and that it applies to all citizens of the U.S. This was deemed necessary as the former Confederate States would not likely (and in reality, did not) apply laws equally, but would continue with segregation and not recognizing the rights of minority citizens.
You may disagree, that's your right, but I think there's general agreement the following is more accurate..

Quote:
The incorporation doctrine is a constitutional doctrine through which the first ten amendments of the United States Constitution (known as the Bill of Rights) are made applicable to the states through the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Prior to the doctrine's (and the Fourteenth Amendment's) existence, the Bill of Rights applied only to the Federal Government and to federal court cases. States and state courts could choose to adopt similar laws, but were under no obligation to do so.
Incorporation Doctrine
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:41 PM
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So, evidently you are not only opposed to states being able to decide for themselves, you also oppose a majority being able to vote their will.
Sure, if we were a Democracy.

But, at least as I've always understood, we are a Representative Republic.

I've always understood the difference as "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch" (mob rule), where as in a Republic rights can NOT be overridden by a majority, such as the lambs rights are inalienable and can NOT be taken away by the majority, or the wolves.

Please understand I totally support/accept the idea of States Rights, and generally would side with that idea, with the exception of losing certain, inalienable rights, which the States have NO right to take away.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:06 PM
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Lets not forget Ma.
I remember Ma. She'd let me get by with a lot of stuff Pa would whip me for.
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