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  #51  
Old 08-02-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Xfuzz View Post
Just sat this on the desk after returning from breakfast.

There's just something about a 1911 with stag grips.......... the early 20th Century, Poncho Villa, The Wild Bunch, Texas Rangers....... and
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  #52  
Old 08-02-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
Hummmm point of view???? Can you tell me why the military junked that clunker???? Now that's more than a point of view it is the naked truth and a FACT! The 1911 is Military Scrap! Sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the truth! The truth is a pesky thing it always comes out. Now on the positive side, you only have to tell it once as it never changes!!!!!! The 1911 is junk! The do make great conversation pieces and small boat anchors though!

Gaston Glock has improved the locked breech gun world by a gigantic leap into the future. Did you know that there are more Glocks in the world than any other brand????? Plastic guns are here to stay and S&W M&P Series are excellent examples of the modern world of today. 1911 stopped in 1912 This my point of view! Sorry if it offends you junk lovers! Do you drive a 1911 car too???
The current cost to produce a quality 1911 & the higher ammo capacity & lighter recoil for smaller personnel is why the 1911 is no longer the US pistol of choice. The 1911 has been around, still used widely today many civi & LEO, after 105y. We will see if the Glock lasts that long. I like the Glock, but to declare the 1911 junk, well I think probably because you can not shoot one very well??
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:14 PM
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Default I'm game....

I like the 1911 and the Commander Models. I am getting too thick in the middle for IWB any more, so a good belt & holster is the only way to fly.

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Old 08-02-2018, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
Hummmm point of view???? Can you tell me why the military junked that clunker???? Now that's more than a point of view it is the naked truth and a FACT! The 1911 is Military Scrap! Sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the truth! The truth is a pesky thing it always comes out. Now on the positive side, you only have to tell it once as it never changes!!!!!! The 1911 is junk! The do make great conversation pieces and small boat anchors though!

Gaston Glock has improved the locked breech gun world by a gigantic leap into the future. Did you know that there are more Glocks in the world than any other brand????? Plastic guns are here to stay and S&W M&P Series are excellent examples of the modern world of today. 1911 stopped in 1912 This my point of view! Sorry if it offends you junk lovers! Do you drive a 1911 car too???
DESPITE YOUR OPINION, Retired Cop, the 1911 IS FAR FROM JUNK ! ! !

IT HAS BEEN TAKING CARE OF UNCLE SAM'S BUSINESS, IN COMBAT THEATERS ALL OVER THE WORLD, SINCE BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. IT IS STILL THE PREFERRED WEAPON FOR SOME ELITE MILITARY UNITS. IT IS A CLASSIC......

AND NO, I DON'T DRIVE A 1911 CAR. I DO DRIVE A 1967 CORVETTE, STINGRAY ROADSTER. ITS A NUMBERS MATCHING CAR, THAT I TREATED TO A BODY-OFF-FRAME RESTORATION. ITS A NATIONAL CORVETTE RESTORERS SOCIETY AWARD WINNER......

YES, ITS A CLASSIC, AS WELL ! ! !
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:53 PM
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I'm 5'8" @ 175 lbs and I carried a alloy frame 1911 Commander for a while with no issues at all. It is still my go-to semi auto CCW though my FN HP is a close second and gaining. A Gov't would be a bit more of a challenge, but I'm confident I could carry one OWB at 4 o'clock with no problems.

IMO the 1911 is still the pinnacle of semi auto pistol design, and I've been shooting for 30 years and owned a lot of guns. Despite being a cheaper brand, mine has been brilliant, meanwhile I've had other guns, including Glocks, that were utter garbage. Saint John was a god-dang genius.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:48 PM
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At 6' 190 lbs. I've been carrying all my CCW guns AIWB for 30+ years. Everything from J fame snubs all the way to 4" N-frames and 5" 1911's.

I've backed off on the 5" 1911 to a 4" Kimber Pro Carry, the inch shorter is less painful at times.

AIWB for me the big guns wedge in my iliac crest and it actually holds my pants up. I walk many miles a day and I don't struggle with pullin' my pants up.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:59 PM
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Carry one regularly, Mexican style for short runs and in a 'Summer Special' for longer hauls. My 'Government model' is exactly that, an old Ithica surplus fitted with an Essex aluminum frame from the late '50's. It's back up is a Ruger R1911 LW Commander.
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:22 PM
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From 1989 to 2008 this was what carried on me all the time. A Frankenstein Government model in 45 ACP and spare 8 round magazine...plus 2 more magazine in the cupholder of my truck.

On November 25 of 2008 I had a car crash and injured my back. I couldn't support the weight of the Government model and spare magazine anymore so I had to switch. I started carrying this Glock 19 without spare mag but after few years I added the spare 15 round mag...plus another spare mag in my cup holder of my truck.

My back is never going to get back to what it was before the accident and it can only get worse so now I try to carry minimal weight. In last few years I started carrying this Kimber Ultra Carry in 45ACP plus a spare mag.

When my back gets really bad I just carry this in my pocket.
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Old 08-02-2018, 05:33 PM
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Carry one regularly, Mexican style for short runs
It amazes me how well they sit on the waistband.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:46 PM
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It amazes me how well they sit on the waistband.
Yessir, they are handy that way........
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:16 PM
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In my opinion, the Government 1911 .45 is the most concealable full sized pistol out there. You won't find a thinner profile. Length is not a problem.

I carry in a Galco V-hawk IWB. It's a 100+ dollar holster, but it's worth it. I can carry a 5 inch 1911 at 4 o'clock with nothing but a polo shirt, and it's undetectable. All the other full sized autos are too fat.

If I only could have 1 gun for home defense and concealed carry, it would probably be a full sized 1911.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bigggbbruce View Post
It amazes me how well they sit on the waistband.
I CARRIED ONE LIKE THAT IN MY JUNGLE FATIGUE PANTS EVERYDAY, DURING MY TOUR IN VIETNAM. I CARRIED COCKED 'N LOCKED---NEVER DROPPED THE GUN, NEVER HAD AN ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE.....

I BOUGHT MY FIRST ONE FOR $40. FROM AN AIRBORNE SOLDIER, WHO WAS GOING HOME. IT WAS PRETTY WAR WEARY, BUT STILL RELIABLE.....

LATER ON, I TRADED UP TO A NICER ONE, FOR $60. BOTH OF THEM HANDLED THE GI ISSUE, 230GR FMJ AMMO, WITHOUT A HITCH, AND BOTH OF THEM RATTLED LIKE SPRAY CANS OF PAINT......

I PASSED MINE OFF TO A NEWBIE, ON MY WAY OUT THE DOOR---JUST GETTING MY MONEY BACK......

THAT EXPERIENCE BEGAN MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH THE FULL SIZE 1911, FOR EDC IN CIVILIAN LIFE......
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:31 PM
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Mine is a series 80 Colt, full size. It rattles in the slide to frame fit; something I prefer.
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Old 08-02-2018, 09:56 PM
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I still have my Colt Delta Elite SS that I carried on duty from 1989 until late 1999. I then went into a plain clothes assignment and decided I needed something lighter so I started carrying my wife's old duty sidearm, a S&W Model 39-2. I retired from LE in 2005 and went into another line of work. I returned to LE in 2015 and was issued a Glock 22. Over the past 2 1/2 years I have carried several guns. I recently got permission to carry my old DE for the remainder of the year. Two years ago I replaced all the springs in it and the magazines. It still shoots reliably and true. I am thinking of selling my G19.5 and my G20SF and getting a Colt LW Commander for my retirement/post LE life which will begin January 1, 2019. Yes, it has to be a Colt, it's just what it is.... I like Colts.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:20 PM
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I think Colt is making better Commanders than ever. I particularly like the Wiley Clapp Model - mainly for its checkered front strap. I could do without the rather thin stocks, but they donít bother me enough to change them. As soon as I get time, I do plan to install a different trigger, but other than a shorter trigger, mine will be staying box-stock. (I guess if youíre a night-sight fanatic youíll have to buy your own night-sights for this model.)

Now if I could get a similar Commander in .38 Super...
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Retired Cop View Post
I use my 1911 for a paperweight on my desk and pocket carry a S&W Bodyguard 380. I don't have to pull my pants up all day or smell like a gas station with oil all over my clothes either!
HEY Retired Cop, USING YOUR POLICE TRAINED SKILL OF OBSERVATION YOU WILL EVENTUALLY NOTE THAT YOUR OPINION IS IN A TINY MINORITY, ON THIS THREAD. IF YOU NEVER ROSE TO THE RANK OF DETECTIVE, THAT FACT MIGHT ESCAPE YOU. DO NOT FRET, YOU ARE STILL ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION, NO MATTER HOW ABSURD......

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO MIGHT SMELL LIKE GAS STATIONS, ARE THOSE AMONG US WHO HAVE RIDDEN OUR VINTAGE HARLEY DAVIDSONS, ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY. MIXED WITH THE SMELL OF LEATHER AND BEER, THAT AROMA IS INTOXICATING......

I HAVE NO CLUE, WHO--IF ANYONE--EVER TAUGHT YOU PROPER MAINTENANCE OF A 1911 PISTOL. IT DOES NOT REQUIRE A BATH IN OIL TO KEEP IT RUNNING ! ! !

DO YOU HAVE A PUDDLE OF OIL, BENEATH THAT PAPERWEIGHT ON YOUR DESK ? ? ? IF YOU DO, I SUGGEST THAT YOU VISIT YOUTUBE, TO VIEW ONE OF THE MANY 1911 TUTORIALS.....
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:01 AM
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When I first got my CPL, thought I'd carry my Series 70 1911, either 45 or 38 Super. The 1911 was my issue sidearm in the Army, my preference in civilian life, plus, I was and still am very good with it. That said, I found out very early on it wasn't a good choice, at least for me. Too heavy to carry all day and got my sciatica going in about 10 minutes. All of the above is just me talking. If you can carry a full size, steel gun all day, more power to ya.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:22 AM
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Back in the very early 1980's I bought a Colt Gov't Model Series 80 1911 and carried it (and a spare Magazine) for about two weeks - that was it!

I love the .45 acp caliber for S/D but the full sized 1911 was just too large, heavy and bulky for me to practically carry given my daily dress did not include a suit or sports jacket.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by one eye joe View Post
DESPITE YOUR OPINION, Retired Cop, the 1911 IS FAR FROM JUNK ! ! !

IT HAS BEEN TAKING CARE OF UNCLE SAM'S BUSINESS, IN COMBAT THEATERS ALL OVER THE WORLD, SINCE BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. IT IS STILL THE PREFERRED WEAPON FOR SOME ELITE MILITARY UNITS. IT IS A CLASSIC......

AND NO, I DON'T DRIVE A 1911 CAR. I DO DRIVE A 1967 CORVETTE, STINGRAY ROADSTER. ITS A NUMBERS MATCHING CAR, THAT I TREATED TO A BODY-OFF-FRAME RESTORATION. ITS A NATIONAL CORVETTE RESTORERS SOCIETY AWARD WINNER......

YES, ITS A CLASSIC, AS WELL ! ! !
Retired cop has received his reward.

Nice 67 roadster Joe
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one eye joe

IT HAS BEEN TAKING CARE OF UNCLE SAM'S BUSINESS, IN COMBAT THEATERS ALL OVER THE WORLD, IT IS STILL THE PREFERRED WEAPON FOR SOME.
The Ol War Horse of 1911 has been carried and used for good effect around the world.
From the shores of foreign lands, to the Home of the Brave.

I say, the 1911 is a fightin man's handgun, I've bet my life on it for over a half century.

Take yur pick....I have.




From the pile above,




I'm unashamed & unrepentant'd that....I have carried two a many a time.





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Old 08-03-2018, 01:11 PM
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Let me first say that I'm sorry you have such draconian laws. You should be able to carry if you want.

My preferred carry gun is a 1911. Why? Because that's the gun that I shoot best. If my life is on the line, I want the tool that I'm most likely to do well with.

Because I teach concealed carry classes, I often have conversations with people about what to carry. Many, many times people have looked at me, assumed that I wasn't carrying, and said, "I have a 1911, but of course no one could conceal one of those so, I'll have to get a different gun." Because I'm almost always in a public setting when this is said, I don't pull up my shirt and show them. Even so, in each case, I was carrying a Commander sized 1911 in a full size holster so, it could just as well have been a full size 1911.



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Cool weather clothing: loose jeans or expandable (elastic waist) casual trousers with 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" belt.

Reasonably loose button up shirt or polo shirt, tucked in and short vest.

Warm weather clothing: walk shorts with 1 1/4" belt. Loose polo shirt tucked in and usually a short vest.
I don't wear shorts, but that's just me. I always carry OWB at 9 o'clock (I'm a lefty) and just wear a loose shirt over the top.

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Old 08-03-2018, 01:26 PM
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Ha! I just noted in a parallel discussion (in re 9mm 1911s) that I long ago moved away from being a 1911 fan. For those of you who can carry one concealed, more power to you. I find them far too large for daily carry. Maybe the most compact models might work for me but why bother when I can carry a compact 9mm with higher capacity? Thus, my answer to the question is a resounding NO.

The 1911 is definitely a gun to go to war with. But not to the office.

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Old 08-03-2018, 03:16 PM
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BTW, to the oily question. I stopped oiling my 1911 years ago. A small amount of gun grease stays in place for 100s of rds w/o slowing things down. A well made 1911 likes to run wet but oil is not the best product for that imo.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:06 PM
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Hummmm point of view???? Can you tell me why the military junked that clunker???? Now that's more than a point of view it is the naked truth and a FACT! The 1911 is Military Scrap! Sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the truth! The truth is a pesky thing it always comes out. Now on the positive side, you only have to tell it once as it never changes!!!!!! The 1911 is junk! The do make great conversation pieces and small boat anchors though!

Gaston Glock has improved the locked breech gun world by a gigantic leap into the future. Did you know that there are more Glocks in the world than any other brand????? Plastic guns are here to stay and S&W M&P Series are excellent examples of the modern world of today. 1911 stopped in 1912 This my point of view! Sorry if it offends you junk lovers! Do you drive a 1911 car too???
I just noticed that RC has been banned. I alluded to his being a troll in another thread when I mentioned the echoes of cloven hooves on a bridge in his posts as he had:

1. Made more than 100 posts in a month.

2. Made provocative statements designed to insult/offend in multiple posts.

3. Never answered questions put to him about his comments, just repeated his outrageous statements in multiple posts.

Good to,see the moderators on to it and taking appropriate action. I just wonder if heíll be back again soon in another guise?
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:38 PM
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Not to belabor the point but in my time here, I have seen some world-class trolls attempt to breech the gap and the forum sentries have thwarted them all in short order.

The best defense is the red triangle.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:44 PM
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I just noticed that RC has been banned.
I just noticed this as well. I also just deleted a long diatribe about my feelings on the subject. Even this is probably too much.
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:02 PM
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I'm late to the party. Yes I carry a 1911 in the cooler months when I can wear a jacket or flannel shirt as a cover garment. I have two full size 1911's a S&W and Remington R1S they both have Crimson Trace grips. Both are very accurate out to 50+ yards easy.

Last edited by double-dipper; 08-03-2018 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:35 PM
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Hummmm point of view???? Can you tell me why the military junked that clunker???? Now that's more than a point of view it is the naked truth and a FACT! The 1911 is Military Scrap! Sorry I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with the truth! The truth is a pesky thing it always comes out. Now on the positive side, you only have to tell it once as it never changes!!!!!! The 1911 is junk! The do make great conversation pieces and small boat anchors though!
Trollin', trollin', trollin'...

I'm out, this one was going just fine till the bait was thrown out.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:32 PM
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Trollin', trollin', trollin'...

I'm out, this one was going just fine till the bait was thrown out.
He's been banned, so feel free to come back in.
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Old 08-04-2018, 04:56 PM
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Mine is a series 80 Colt, full size. It rattles in the slide to frame fit; something I prefer.
I AGREE WITH YOU ON THE LOOSE FIT. I THINK THAT IT ADDS TO RELIABILITY---ESP IN COMBAT SITUATIONS, WHEN THE WEAPON MIGHT NOT BE SQUEAKY CLEAN......
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Old 08-05-2018, 12:40 PM
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If the multiple positive threads on carrying a 5" 1911 haven't been enough, I will add my .02! I carried one for almost 15 years. For the first few years, I didn't buy-into the "gun belt" advice. That was a big mistake! Get a good, true, GUN-BELT. It's even more important than a good holster. In a pinch, the mass-produced stuff from 5.11, Galco, Blackhawk, etc. can work, but they do not last as well as the belts listed below. Not sure what your options are in your country, but I recommend:
AG Custom Leather Gun Belts . CCW Belts Made to Order in the USA
Milt Sparks Holsters
Tactical Belts, Duty Belt, Military Belt, Instructor Belt
#1 in Horsehide Leather Gun Holsters - KRAMER(R)

It's also nice to have a holster and belt made for each other (Sparks, or Kramer).
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Old 08-05-2018, 08:56 PM
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I really love the pictures. I will say that I am short and I am what people refer as "a big boned woman." I have carried full size my SS 45 in milt sparks summer special. In winter it's doable. I carry my small kimber ultras cross draw. I like the steel eclipse and how solid it feels. I carry the crimson trace alloy frame mostly but I prefer the eclipse. Never worry that someone will know it's there. I really like shooting 1911's. I shoot them pretty good.
I also carry a SIG 938 sometimes when I am dressing light for the heat. When I just don't want to mess with holsters and belts I just put my S&W Lady Smith in my front short pocket.
Mary
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:29 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
Not to belabor the point but in my time here, I have seen some world-class trolls attempt to breech the gap and the forum sentries have thwarted them all in short order.

The best defense is the red triangle.
Which also just so happens to be the Colt Delta Elite 1911's emblem, coincidence?

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way making a threatening comment alluding towards an act of violence, merely pointing out the irony that he constantly hated on the 1911 platform, was undone by the red triangle, (Report Button) which also just so happens to be the Delta Elite emblem.

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Old 08-06-2018, 10:12 PM
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I don't have a 1911, but I carry a S&W 5906 which is kind of comparable and has some heft. I carry inside the waist band using a High Noon Mister Softy holster. I carry all the time if I can legally do so, and only remove it as I crawl into bed. I don't even notice it's there.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Cottle View Post
Carry one regularly, Mexican style for short runs .


Russell,
I've jest made a 'short' run of 3000 miles, Mexican carried every minute of everyday.

They just seem to ride right for me.


Colt Lightweight Commander,




.
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:54 AM
JagmanFL JagmanFL is offline
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I carried a Springfield Armory Range Officer for a long time. But, I found the 5" barrel to be cumbersome and uncomfortable. So, I switched to a Springfield Armory Range Officer Champion. Their identical guns except the champion has a 4" barrel. Huge difference in comfort. I'm very happy with the change.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:49 AM
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I just hit 60 years old and I carry one daily!
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Old 08-12-2018, 08:57 AM
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As mentioned in the thread, if a good belt, holster and untucked shirt are used, a 5" Government model is very practical for Concealed Carry.

I like the 1911 in .45 acp as I am limited to 10+1, so 8+1 and either a spare 8 or 10 round mag works for me.

The 1911 is slim, f so great in the hand, and has a great trigger.

There are also so many aftermarket parts and options you can hav it exactly the way you want it.

Some people go for bone stock, other people have tons of options.

I like the look of the Stock Colt, and I like upgraded sights and triggers and I am good to go.

YMMV.
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:47 AM
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Kimber Custom CDP IWB for 18 years in mid Florida.

Perfection.

Regards,

Tam 3
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:45 PM
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I am 74 and have carried every day of my life since retirement. My number one go to in my rotation is a full size Colt Series 70 that has been customized to my liking. It's carried in a good IWB holster with a custom gun belt. I carry this rig when I'm not going to be out all day or when I face the possibility of a high threat like an active shooter at the mall or a movie. I've always said "if trouble breaks out I pray to God I have my full size 1911 on my hip".

Now for the reality, at my age with, my aging back, I can not carry my full size 1911 each and every day. My more often carry is my 4" 45 Range Officer Compact 1911. This one can be carried IWB or OWB every day and all day without any strain on my back, and I can shoot it almost as well as my full size. Thank goodness I can still carry the old classic once in a while anyway, and more importantly thank God I still have the ability to shoot.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:31 PM
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For many years, I have owned both a 5" Colt S.80 Enhanced Govt. Model, & 4.25" Colt LWT Commander XSE. Both are fine, reliable pistols, & chambered in .45acp.

I personally prefer the Commander's balance for handling, & for all day EDC - it's shorter slide, & lighter weight.
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Last edited by GCF; 08-12-2018 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:07 PM
Hank Dodge Hank Dodge is offline
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Full size Les Baer in a VMII carried daily. It's comfortable enough for me, just get a solid belt. Under a tee shirt or loose button down, it works just fine.
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Old 08-13-2018, 12:19 AM
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My problem with the full sized 1911 platform is the ammo capacity vs. the size/reliability issues. These guns hold 8, maybe 9 rounds with extended magazines and there are revolvers today that hold 7 to 8 rounds of .357 Mag which are close to the same size and more reliable.

I like both semis and revolvers but if I was going to carry a semi that size it had better offer some major advantage over a revolver and having 8 to 9 rounds doesn't quite cut it. I want double stack mags with 15+1 or greater if I am going to bother carrying a full sized semi-auto.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodSam View Post
My problem with the full sized 1911 platform is the ammo capacity vs. the size/reliability issues. These guns hold 8, maybe 9 rounds with extended magazines and there are revolvers today that hold 7 to 8 rounds of .357 Mag which are close to the same size and more reliable.

I like both semis and revolvers but if I was going to carry a semi that size it had better offer some major advantage over a revolver and having 8 to 9 rounds doesn't quite cut it.
Like a Browning High Power, perhaps?
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:56 AM
Smokey613 Smokey613 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustyt1953 View Post
Not to belabor the point but in my time here, I have seen some world-class trolls attempt to breech the gap and the forum sentries have thwarted them all in short order.

The best defense is the red triangle.
I agree, especially about the "red triangle"
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
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Retired cop has received his reward.

Nice 67 roadster Joe
THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS, ladder13....
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl View Post
Russell,
I've jest made a 'short' run of 3000 miles, Mexican carried every minute of everyday.

They just seem to ride right for me.


Colt Lightweight Commander,




.
THAT'S A BEAUTIFULL 1911, keith......

I MEXICAN CARRIED A WW II, GI ISSUE 1911, AS A BUG THROUGHOUT MY TOUR IN VIETNAM. .....

I NEVER DROPPED IT, TIGHTLY CINCHED UP BY MY WEB BELT, UNDER MY JUNGLE FATIGUE JACKET.....
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:09 AM
jim lock jim lock is offline
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IMHO- The only way you will find answers to your questions is to:
"Strap one on and try it"
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim lock View Post
IMHO- The only way you will find answers to your questions is to:
"Strap one on and try it"
ULTIMATELY, THAT WOULD BE THE ACID TEST.....
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