Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > Concealed Carry & Self Defense

Notices

Concealed Carry & Self Defense All aspects of Concealed and Open Carry, Home and Self Defense.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:20 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default Griz Kills Mom & Infant

There could be another angle to this story: Trapper’s wife, child killed in suspected Yukon bear attack | Edmonton Journal

There's not enough info to infer reasonable conclusion, which is a subtle law enforcement hint.

Anyway, I'd sure as heck would like a 1911-A1 10MM while venturing in griz country.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:18 PM
moongoon moongoon is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tilton NH
Posts: 32
Likes: 97
Liked 28 Times in 13 Posts
Default

I believe handguns are mostly forbidden in Canada. Besides , while 10mm is better than nothing, any serious bear protection starts with .44. the article says that husband killed the bear but didn't say what kind of gun he used. Very sad story.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:31 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 19,998
Likes: 24,499
Liked 29,290 Times in 10,885 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
There could be another angle to this story: Trapper’s wife, child killed in suspected Yukon bear attack | Edmonton Journal

There's not enough info to infer reasonable conclusion, which is a subtle law enforcement hint.
That's because you are not used to the English style of death reporting that is likely practiced in Canada. Short version, until the coroner or coroner's court says what happened, everything else is speculation, even if you have video.
__________________
Release the Kraken
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:08 PM
Rudi Rudi is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 6,761
Likes: 13,253
Liked 15,721 Times in 4,950 Posts
Default

The size of these animals is hard to understand until you actually see one in the field. Any handgun is better than a rock or a stick or bear spray. I carried a 300 Win. Mag. but there were still brushy areas that just had to be avoided. Mr. Bruin does not like being disturbed while sleeping. Check out the book, Alaska Bear Tales.
__________________
No baby we aint
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 11-29-2018, 04:39 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
US Veteran
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
Default

News reports saying the woman was on maternity leave from her teaching job at Whitehorse .. so sadly 3 lives were lost ..

Also saying they believe they were out walking away from the cabin a short distance when the bear initially attacked them .. Grizzly's this time of year after bulking up all summer and especially fall it was likely to weigh 900 to 1100 pounds .. and they are much faster then one would realize for their size .. they will easily out run a person ..

The hunter himself was lucky to have killed a charging bear !!

Very sad !!

Last edited by Whitwabit; 11-29-2018 at 04:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-29-2018, 05:06 PM
NSEGE NSEGE is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 9 Posts
Default

This was a horrible tragedy, but I , for one, would not venture into Griz Country (or even outside the cabin) w/o my Benelli M1 S90 in my hands (not slung over my back) loaded with Brenneke Black Magics. Most of the time I'm in Grizzly habitat it's when hunting and I have a rifle and a pistol both. I figure being armed is like using a seat belt... don't plan on having to use it, but it's sure handy if I do.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 11-29-2018, 05:21 PM
VaTom VaTom is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: SW Virginia
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 9,199
Liked 5,205 Times in 1,313 Posts
Default

Saw my first grizzlies while on a fishing trip in Montana in July. Was on the Gallatin River just inside Yellowstone boundary near Big Sky. They are massive compared to black bears here in Virginia. Talked to a couple of locals (one was a fishing guide) on separate occasion about what handgun they carry in bear country when fishing. Both said 10 mm Glocks and bear spray.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 11-30-2018, 11:25 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moongoon View Post
I believe handguns are mostly forbidden in Canada. Besides , while 10mm is better than nothing, any serious bear protection starts with .44. the article says that husband killed the bear but didn't say what kind of gun he used. Very sad story.

Very, very, very few hand gunners can rapidly fire a .44 Mag with accuracy. I'd rather hit a griz with 9 200 grain 10MM rounds than 1 .44 Mag round with a prayer of getting off more rounds and even more prayer of one of those rounds hitting anything.

The 1911-A1 has to be the most easily carried large caliber handgun ever to grace the shooting world. It's extremely fast to battery, its action mitigates recoil, and it's many times faster to reload.

I'd prefer a Guide Gun chambered for .45/70 Gov't, then an 870 with 1.25 oz slugs. But a long gun is very slow to battery when slung over a shoulder.

In the end, it's a matter of comfort and preference. If you're more comfortable with a .44 Mag revolver, I'd recommend that that's the route you pursue. I'd prefer a 1911-A1 10MM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:07 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Hi NSEGE,

I've fished more times than I can remember in thick black bear country of the Eastern Sierra. Fishing with a shoulder fired weapon is far from practical.

Often unrecognized is speed of black bears. They can sprint faster than thoroughbreds. Also, when black bears attack, they do so to kill, which ins't always true with griz.

My strategy is avoidance. I'm on heightened vigilance when I'm fishing with my kids. If a bear is in an area we wanna fish, it gets it & we'll leave. If a bear were to wander into our fishing area, it gets it & we'll leave.

My son is old enough now to carry his own handgun. But he and my daughter are instructed to get behind me and slowly back out if a bear wanders into our fishing area. I do not want to kill a black bear. In the Eastern Sierra, they're accustomed to humans, which has created the very real potential for a tragic encounter. Far more than my desire to not have to kill a bear is my desire to protect my kids. Hence, I have to survive to assure their survival.

Any bear can have everything we might have on us (our lunch, etc.). But he can't have us, exponentially so my kids.

I've hunted in griz country, but haven't seen one. I've probably been seen by 'em. I never carry a handgun while I'm hunting. A 7MM Rem Mag is a whole lot better than any handgun. So far, I've been either lucky or good at avoiding trouble.

A bull moose with a cow scared the holy you-know-what right outta me when I rounded a trail & he was staring right at me. I remained motionless. I didn't even try to get my 7MM Rem Mag off of my shoulder. He'd of closed distance of about fifty yards before I could've defended myself. My strategy was to present myself as no threat to that bull's arm candy. After a few minutes of giving me the evil eye, he and his arm candy wandered away. I was very, very lucky.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:17 PM
Racer X Racer X is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 1,000
Liked 3,595 Times in 1,521 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
There could be another angle to this story: Trapper’s wife, child killed in suspected Yukon bear attack | Edmonton Journal

There's not enough info to infer reasonable conclusion, which is a subtle law enforcement hint.

Anyway, I'd sure as heck would like a 1911-A1 10MM while venturing in griz country.
I have been thinking of the RIA 1911A2 double stack 10 myself. #52009 And getting a .40S&W barrel fitted to it as well. Just because.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:32 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Hi Racer X,

That sounds like an extremely wise plan to me.

I used to own a 6" 629. With mag loads, there was no way I could master quick follow-up shots & I wasn't recoil averse. Sold it. No remorse. So long. Adios. Goodbye. Come back when you can't stay longer. And it was a nightmare to back country carry.

I can carry a 1911-A1 all day long with zero discomfort. And it's much faster to battery and infinitely faster to reload. It's easy to keep its muzzle on target where it belongs.

I fired a compact sedan, er, I mean a 7.5" Freedom Arms .454 Casull exactly three times. I put that thang back on a bench and was afraid to even look at it. My friend asked if I was done shooting it. "Yes I am," I replied. I shouda been done after round 1. That darn thang was nothin' but pain.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:29 PM
robertrwalsh robertrwalsh is offline
SWCA Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Peoples Republic of Calif
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 1,233
Liked 6,036 Times in 2,149 Posts
Default

It is truly tragic, but being out and about in the boonies where there are large, aggressive carnivors in the area without a means to protect yourself is unwise.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 12-01-2018, 12:10 PM
DB404 DB404 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 74
Likes: 204
Liked 84 Times in 38 Posts
Default

In Canada you're pretty much limited to long guns, which is too bad. If the griz/blackie/brownie gets to you, you will lose the long gun. If you're in Alaska or Montana, where you can have a handgun with you, you will likely survive. Bear spray may or may not be effective (wind)(and AKF&G has noted some bears seem to like it). A life long Alaskan I worked with on the Kenai Peninsula related two instances of grizzlies coming through a large window into a cabin in one instance, and a single wide trailer in the other. Both were killed with .357 revolvers; one after the husband shot it several times with his .44 magnum and his wife then killed it with her .357 while it was busy chewing on him. They are big, no debate. I watched one walking on the glacial silt flats along the Copper River (I remember thinking, "Christ, that thing looks like a Volkswagen in a fur coat!"). After it went back in the brush I went to look at the tracks, which were pressed into the silt about 3/4 of an inch. I weighed 220 at the time, and had a pack on my back; even jumping up and down I did no more than just scuff the silt where its tracks were. So yeah, they're big. But that doesn't mean you have to use a howitzer on them. But whatever you do use, you have to put it in the right spot. Don't think "killing the bear" instead, think "break the bear down": head (brain), spine, shoulders. Two guys fishing for red salmon at the confluence of the Kenai and the Russian river were charged by a sow brown bear. One had a 12 gauge over his shoulder, which he fumbled getting into action and dropped into 2 or 3 feet of swift water. The other had a 9mm. He saved their bacon by shooting at her head/neck area and dropped her with a head shot within spitting distance. A lot of the guys I knew were shelving their .44 magnums in favor of 10mm Glocks. The 10 is more powerful than the .357, easier to shoot, quicker on repeat shots than a .44 and easier to pack on your belt all day. I alternated between a 29-2 4" in a cross draw rig and a Colt Delta 10mm. Generally, my "always" gun in that country when I was exploring or hiking was a Browning 45-70 carbine, with no sling swivels on it so that it stayed in my hands. If I was hunting moose and was out and about with my .338, .375 or 9.3, I also removed their slings.

Last edited by DB404; 12-01-2018 at 12:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 12-01-2018, 05:37 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Hi DB404,

Thanks so much for your excellent analysis.

I agree 100%. It's not about killing a charging bear, it's about stopping it. (It's the same concept with bipedal vermin. I don't want to kill a bad guy. I want to stop him from killing me.) That's precisely why I'd take a 1911-A1 chambered for 10MM over all other handgun choices. 9 200 grain 10MM rounds into the shoulder area of a bear would be tough to beat, especially when they could be fired very rapidly and accurately. I'd probably prefer FMJ or hard cast designed bullets, maybe Partitions.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #15  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:10 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 13,048
Liked 28,613 Times in 5,154 Posts
Default

It's a damn canadian shame that this young woman did not
have the wherewithal to defend herself and her child.

It saddens me to read this.

.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 12-03-2018, 11:53 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Good Morning, keith44spl,

I agree. Denying Canadians the RIGHT to life is a nanny state construct. Only government can protect you; therefore, you must relinquish individual liberties to government (read: control over citizens) in exchange for the promise (can never be guaranteed) of security. Hence, government stole sovereignty from We, the People.

Canada has the highest per capita population of college educated people in the world, yet it can't figure out Natural Rights and gun ownership indicates individual liberty.

With that outta da way, I'd sure like to read Yukon cops' (RCMP?) reports of their completed investigation. There was a lot that wasn't included in the article.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:12 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 13,048
Liked 28,613 Times in 5,154 Posts
Default

I'd think that the family would of had a non-restricted long gun at the homestead.

I guess we'll have to wait for the Mounties to complete their report.

.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:47 PM
Larry from Bend Larry from Bend is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NC Montana
Posts: 853
Likes: 90
Liked 483 Times in 201 Posts
Default

My take on it...

I regularly go into Griz country and pack a 5" 629 w/ 285 grain Beartooths @ 1235 fps. I've had trouble with Griz and Black Bears but never had to shoot one, yet. Anymore, where I live is Griz country, so it surely could become necessary.

This load is at least half again (muzzle energy) better than the best 10MM load made. The 10MM is basically the 357 (again, muzzle energy) but makes a larger hole. If you like the 10MM, well, good for you. If you can't handle the .44 I get it --- but with practice you'd probably handle it just fine. In my 5" Classic, I find the recoil to be tame. I'm curious about people who think the .44 mag is a bruiser but think the 10 MM is a easy kicker (especially out of a Glock!). The idea that someone is going to "Shoot a Griz 9 times in the shoulder area" makes me shake my head.

I've packed this 5" or the 6" I had before it on hunting/fishing/horse packing trips into the Bob Marshall starting in '86. With a stiff belt, it packs easy.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying regarding the 10MM, but it's a poor choice compared to a properly loaded 44 mag.

PS: Nosler doesn't mke Partitions in pistol calibers nd even if they did they would be a poor choice for big bear protection compared to a properly hardened hardcast WLN.

Last edited by Larry from Bend; 12-03-2018 at 12:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:19 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 13,048
Liked 28,613 Times in 5,154 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry from Bend View Post
My take on it...

I regularly go into Griz country and pack a 5" 629 w/ 285 grain Beartooths @ 1235 fps. I've had trouble with Griz and Black Bears but never had to shoot one, yet. Anymore, where I live is Griz country, so it surely could become necessary.

This load is at least half again (muzzle energy) better than the best 10MM load made. The 10MM is basically the 357 (again, muzzle energy) but makes a larger hole. If you like the 10MM, well, good for you. If you can't handle the .44 I get it --- but with practice you'd probably handle it just fine. In my 5" Classic, I find the recoil to be tame. I'm curious about people who think the .44 mag is a bruiser but think the 10 MM is a easy kicker (especially out of a Glock!). The idea that someone is going to "Shoot a Griz 9 times in the shoulder area" makes me shake my head.

I've packed this 5" or the 6" I had before it on hunting/fishing/horse packing trips into the Bob Marshall starting in '86. With a stiff belt, it packs easy.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying regarding the 10MM, but it's a poor choice compared to a properly loaded 44 mag.

PS: Nosler doesn't mke Partitions in pistol calibers nd even if they did they would be a poor choice for big bear protection compared to a properly hardened hardcast WLN.


I agree with ya,
the 10mm with a 220 gr at 1100fps / 700fp vs
a 44 Mag with a 250gr at 1250 fps / 1000fp.

The 44 Mag load with a 285gr at 1200fps / 1100fp...
I think it's a purty stout load to defend one's self in bear country. I like it.

But, I like a handy 45-70 short rifle as well. A 385gr Flat Point Solid at 2000fps / 3200fp.....



.

I wish that woman had had one to defend herself and her child.


.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Last edited by keith44spl; 12-03-2018 at 01:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #20  
Old 12-03-2018, 07:55 PM
DB404 DB404 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 74
Likes: 204
Liked 84 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Well, what I learned while shooting 2 different 29-2s (one 4", one 6-1/2") and a 5" 29-5 Classic with the full lug, using full house loads (no reduced loads were messed with) that were mostly composed of 22.0 gr 296 with 320gr LBT LFN was that, for me, the recoil recovery time was too slow due to the power of the load and the high bore axis above my hand. I shot those heavy loads quite a bit; enough so that I had to have Smith rebuild my 6-1/2" gun twice, before I finally decided the extra length slowed it down a touch too much getting into action compared to the 4 or 5 incher, and sold it. I kept the two shorter .44s when I moved outside, but don't run them as warm as before since we're fresh out of brownies in this neck of the woods. Power misapplied is useless. You have to hit the right spot(s)with it to be effective. The 10mm is absolutely less powerful than the .44 mag, but with the right loads (200 gr WFN Double Tap, 1300 fps) applied in the right spot, it will do the job. I carried a Colt stainless Delta Elite as much or more than the 29s. Perhaps because I'd used 1911s in .45 ACP a lot in IPSC competition, I found the Delta fast into action, and utterly reliable. What with Phil Shoemaker whacking aggressive brownies with a 9mm S&W 59 with Buffalo Bore loads, I suppose I'm now over gunned.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-04-2018, 11:21 AM
mrmike7189's Avatar
mrmike7189 mrmike7189 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 736
Likes: 2,823
Liked 518 Times in 278 Posts
Thumbs down awful

Horrible story. I hate reading stories like these.
__________________
S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:27 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Good Morning Larry from Bend,

Any handgun is a poor choice if its owner can't shoot it.

A friend of mine who's now in Heaven told me to go with a .357 Mag with 180 grain bullets for black bear protection while fishing the Eastern Sierra. He was a CA game warden. Keep in mind that CA has the largest population of black bears in the lower 48 & they're the biggest due to mild temperatures & endless supplies of food. They dine on leftovers of visitors, especially in Angeles National Forest. Due to weather, their hibernation period is much shorter. It ain't uncommon to see 500 pounders roaming the San Gabriels. Anyway, I'd be down for a demonstration of rapid firing with accuracy a 4" .357 Mag loaded with authentic 180 grain .357 Mag rounds. That would get me to thinkin' of shakin' my head.

I've yet to meet a hand gunner who could rapidly fire (let alone accurately) a .44 Mag with real magnum loads. Like you're shaking your head to a shooter who can rapidly fire a powerful semi, when I hear or read of people who say or write that they can, I'd want to see it before I'd believe it.

Turning a .44 Mag into a .44 Spl by loading weaker loads is militating against one's self. One might as well carry a 1911-A1. And I can definitively write that a full-size 1911-A1 is geometrically easier to carry than a 6" 629, a 4" 586, and a 4" GP 100.

I'd rather hit a griz with 9 10MM rounds than 1 .44 Mag round, assuming, of course, I was plumb outta options.

It sounds like you'd be surprised at how fast a knowledgeable pistolero can accurately fire a 1911-A1. The advantage is in recoil mitigation of recoil spring and recoil force absorbed by slide cycling, advantages revolvers do not have. A good rule of survival: your gun's muzzle should never leave its silhouette. If recoil forces your gun's muzzle off target, that could be a serious tactical disadvantage.

I don't screw around with ballistic tables. I look at momentum. I want bone-breaking penetration.

Were I queried, I'd reply: "The Model 1911-A1 is the best handgun design to ever grace Earth. Like the founding of our country, it had to have been Divinely inspired. Michelangelo's best work doesn't compare to JMB's design of the most recognized handgun in the world: the 1911-A1!!!"

Jus' sayin'...ya know???

PS: I have 500 180 grain .357 Mag Partitions in my garage waiting to be crimped into cases. I bought 'em years ago when I got wind that they were going to be discontinued.

PS Redux: I have absolutely no seller's remorse from selling my 6" Model 629. I'd much rather carry a very quick to battery 1911-A1 that I can reload while a .44 Mag shooter is trying to reacquire sight picture after his first round. It's all a matter of how we prioritize important stuff.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 12-04-2018, 12:42 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Good Morning keith44spl,

The .45/70 Gov't is an extremely powerful round.

I have a Guide Gun that I bought when they were introduced. When approaching max with 400 grain bullets, it is punishing to shoot.

There ain't a beast walking Earth that could withstand a properly loaded .45/70 Gov't round.

If I can to go into thick stuff to finish a wounded and deadly mean beast, I'd want a Guide Gun over all others.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-04-2018, 01:56 PM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 13,048
Liked 28,613 Times in 5,154 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Good Morning keith44spl,

The .45/70 Gov't is an extremely powerful round.

I have a Guide Gun that I bought when they were introduced. When approaching max with 400 grain bullets, it is punishing to shoot.

There ain't a beast walking Earth that could withstand a properly loaded .45/70 Gov't round.

If I can to go into thick stuff to finish a wounded and deadly mean beast, I'd want a Guide Gun over all others.

I handload my 45-70 cartridges in new brass and IMR 3031 in
an amount that I won't share, it is safe in my long throat'd '86
with the solid 385gr copper bullets of my making.

At about 2000 + fps, it feels purty good to me.....

As the old adage goes, hunter shoots big bear with big gun...

Both the hunter and bear go down. The first one to get up wins!

Su Amigo,
Dave
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Last edited by keith44spl; 12-04-2018 at 01:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:56 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Good Morning keith44spl,

A gunsmith gave a load for my Marlin Guide Gun. I loaded too many. It took only a few to know that it was far too powerful for anything found in North America, but marginal for blue whales ;-)

Hunter shoot big bear with that load, bear go down, hunter say bad words, about gun not bear ;-)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:14 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

keith44spl,

I just took a long look at your rifle. That is one good looking work of art. Is it a Winchester?

I'm a hunter more than shooter. A hunter with skills and hand loads would need no other gun than a .45/70 Gov't. From Pacific Coast blacktail bucks (mostly on small side) to the most massive elk and polar bear, too, the .45/70 Gov't will git er dun. Load some soilds, and Africa's Big Five would be on a hunter's trophy room wall. What other cartridge could do it all as effectively and efficiently as a .45/70 Gov't? However, one must accept, "Hunter fall down."

BTW, I used IMR-3031 in the hurtin' load about which I wrote. RL-7 is another excellent .45/70 powder. While I've never tried Unique in a .45/70 case, I have read that it'll make an excellent deer load. Varget would probably work & I've read that it gives exceptional accuracy.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:55 AM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Red River Valley
Posts: 7,693
Likes: 13,048
Liked 28,613 Times in 5,154 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
keith44spl,

I just took a long look at your rifle. That is one good looking work of art. Is it a Winchester?

I'm a hunter more than shooter. A hunter with skills and hand loads would need no other gun than a .45/70 Gov't. From Pacific Coast blacktail bucks (mostly on small side) to the most massive elk and polar bear, too, the .45/70 Gov't will git er dun. Load some soilds, and Africa's Big Five would be on a hunter's trophy room wall. What other cartridge could do it all as effectively and efficiently as a .45/70 Gov't? However, one must accept, "Hunter fall down."

BTW, I used IMR-3031 in the hurtin' load about which I wrote. RL-7 is another excellent .45/70 powder. While I've never tried Unique in a .45/70 case, I have read that it'll make an excellent deer load. Varget would probably work & I've read that it gives exceptional accuracy.
.


Yes, it is a Winchester. One of the take-down models re-introduction several years back.
I cut it back to 20 inches from 26.

Before that one, my go to lever rifle was a Winchester 71 348.
Always thought I'd re-bored and chamber the 71 to 450 Alaskan.

But ended up with the newer Winchester '86 in 45-70.
After I shortened it, relieved the throat just a bit more,
to help hold pressures down, and let me increase the payload
of power.

It does recoil purty sharp....
What with being recoil insensitive, I get along with it right well.

I have another '86 with a shotgun butt plate that is on the bench now.
Also, working on some heavier solid bullets. I wanta push a 405gr FP/BT at about 2000fps or so.

Also working on a 44 Mag. load using a solid copper 'Keith' style of SWC over a dollop of 2400 for my EDC woods bumming revolver. 44SPl/Mag.



*
The above described are my self defense back country firearms.
I'm not a bear hunter, but will defend myself and others in my
charge against attack from critters large and small. When cruising
the wilds, I try to stay alert for moose and bears looking for trouble.

If I were to be so inclined to hunt the above game, I guess I'd pick a model70 375 H&H.


.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Last edited by keith44spl; 12-05-2018 at 12:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-05-2018, 12:06 PM
RoyM52 RoyM52 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wis
Posts: 439
Likes: 1,049
Liked 577 Times in 238 Posts
Default

I have a 444 Marlin that just feels right at 2200 fps with a 265 grain flat nose. It has worked several times on Bear in the past.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:55 PM
DB404 DB404 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Big Sky Country
Posts: 74
Likes: 204
Liked 84 Times in 38 Posts
Default

The loads I used in my Browning 1886 45-70 SRC for bear and moose were 400 gr Kodiak bonded core bullets over 50.0 grains of R7; velocity averaged 2035 fps. I eased up to a shade over 51.0 grains just to see what it would do and velocity went up to 2150 (an 8 round .404 Jeffery!). Extraction was still easy and slick, but 50.0 was really enough push, so it became my go to load. The load came from Holt Bodison's article in Guns magazine reviewing the Browning.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #30  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:55 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

For the .45/70 posters: Gun Test: Marlin’s 1895 SBL Z Trapper .45-70 | The Daily Caller

Author wrote that some loads approached .458 Win Mag power...from a cartridge that's close to a hundred fifty years young.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:56 PM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Hi RoyM52,

The .444 Marlin is a very powerful cartridge. I'd hunt everything in North America with it.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #32  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:09 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,630
Likes: 336
Liked 3,279 Times in 1,356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moongoon View Post
I believe handguns are mostly forbidden in Canada. Besides , while 10mm is better than nothing, any serious bear protection starts with .44. the article says that husband killed the bear but didn't say what kind of gun he used. Very sad story.
He probably used a .22 or a .30/30.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:33 PM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 2,630
Likes: 336
Liked 3,279 Times in 1,356 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EMP3 View Post
Good Morning Larry from Bend,

Any handgun is a poor choice if its owner can't shoot it.

A friend of mine who's now in Heaven told me to go with a .357 Mag with 180 grain bullets for black bear protection while fishing the Eastern Sierra. He was a CA game warden. Keep in mind that CA has the largest population of black bears in the lower 48 & they're the biggest due to mild temperatures & endless supplies of food. They dine on leftovers of visitors, especially in Angeles National Forest. Due to weather, their hibernation period is much shorter. It ain't uncommon to see 500 pounders roaming the San Gabriels. Anyway, I'd be down for a demonstration of rapid firing with accuracy a 4" .357 Mag loaded with authentic 180 grain .357 Mag rounds. That would get me to thinkin' of shakin' my head.

I've yet to meet a hand gunner who could rapidly fire (let alone accurately) a .44 Mag with real magnum loads. Like you're shaking your head to a shooter who can rapidly fire a powerful semi, when I hear or read of people who say or write that they can, I'd want to see it before I'd believe it.

Turning a .44 Mag into a .44 Spl by loading weaker loads is militating against one's self. One might as well carry a 1911-A1. And I can definitively write that a full-size 1911-A1 is geometrically easier to carry than a 6" 629, a 4" 586, and a 4" GP 100.

I'd rather hit a griz with 9 10MM rounds than 1 .44 Mag round, assuming, of course, I was plumb outta options.

It sounds like you'd be surprised at how fast a knowledgeable pistolero can accurately fire a 1911-A1. The advantage is in recoil mitigation of recoil spring and recoil force absorbed by slide cycling, advantages revolvers do not have. A good rule of survival: your gun's muzzle should never leave its silhouette. If recoil forces your gun's muzzle off target, that could be a serious tactical disadvantage.

I don't screw around with ballistic tables. I look at momentum. I want bone-breaking penetration.

Were I queried, I'd reply: "The Model 1911-A1 is the best handgun design to ever grace Earth. Like the founding of our country, it had to have been Divinely inspired. Michelangelo's best work doesn't compare to JMB's design of the most recognized handgun in the world: the 1911-A1!!!"

Jus' sayin'...ya know???

PS: I have 500 180 grain .357 Mag Partitions in my garage waiting to be crimped into cases. I bought 'em years ago when I got wind that they were going to be discontinued.

PS Redux: I have absolutely no seller's remorse from selling my 6" Model 629. I'd much rather carry a very quick to battery 1911-A1 that I can reload while a .44 Mag shooter is trying to reacquire sight picture after his first round. It's all a matter of how we prioritize important stuff.
You seem really attached to that phrase " quick to battery ".
I believe the proper usage is " quicker return to battery ".

If you are talking about how fast the action cycles compared to re-cocking a single-action revolver, then why not just say so in plain English that everyone understands?
BTW, a double-action revolver can be fired pretty quickly as well.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-07-2018, 10:22 AM
EMP3 EMP3 is offline
Member
Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant Griz Kills Mom & Infant  
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: God Bless the USA!
Posts: 172
Likes: 117
Liked 117 Times in 60 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
You seem really attached to that phrase " quick to battery ".
I believe the proper usage is " quicker return to battery ".

If you are talking about how fast the action cycles compared to re-cocking a single-action revolver, then why not just say so in plain English that everyone understands?
BTW, a double-action revolver can be fired pretty quickly as well.
Quick to battery is common term among professionals. This language might help you: the speed with which you can get your gun out of its holster and pointed at a threat and ready to fire.

Sight picture retention translation: your gun's muzzle does not leave its intended target.

Don't read gun magazines. They're urban fantasy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UPDATED at post 34 6/16/2018: Bear with me while I bring up another griz in the news vigil617 The Lounge 35 06-16-2018 07:53 PM
Technical Infant Mortality rhmc24 The Lounge 4 12-21-2017 06:22 AM
THIS KILLS ME! chief38 The Lounge 24 12-20-2012 05:07 PM
Grizzly attack part deux. 1 year later. The Griz the Wildey, and the 460s'. Allen-frame The Lounge 20 11-15-2011 01:29 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:53 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)