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  #51  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:21 PM
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Thank you, I live in a Stand Your Ground state, so that means I do not have to retreat and hide right?

States That Have Stand Your Ground Laws - FindLaw

I'm glad to see hat Nevada is also one of the Stand Your Ground States. There is also a long standing tradition in Nevada of burying problems in a hole in the desert.
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:20 PM
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I had Texas Law Shield but changed a few years ago to CCW Safe which pays more and in most cases will not cost me a dime out of my pockets.
Thank you very much
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  #53  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:31 PM
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Neither stand your ground nor the Castle Doctrine are legal grounds for defending property using deadly force.

I talked to CCW Safe about using a gun to stop a person from stealing my truck at night. He said you can't use deadly force to protect property. This scenario could open a can of worms and going to jail for any number of years isn't worth it to keep my truck from being stolen.

Call the cops and let the thief know the cops are on their way. If you approach with a gun then you might then be considered the aggressor and the thief was then afraid for his life. The old belief that anyone trespassing at night, even in your home, is grounds for using deadly force is not so cut and dried as some might be led to think. 12 people might think differently than you do.
CCW is wrong as stated when mine got broken into in Tyler officer told me I had every right to shoot someone to protect my property. And no you don't have to drag em inside.
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  #54  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:36 PM
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Spent many hours looking at all the CCW insurance. Some only covered certain States or use of handgun only or found not guilty and only then reimbursed you a certain amount ect..
I purchased CCW Safe. You can get it for you and your wife,covers criminal and civil law suits,bail ect.. you can even get 1 million pay out in a civil suit if you lose with NO out of pocket expense!
This was my choice. There are some good comments above.
Good luck on your search. If you carry a gun or have one for home defense you NEED some kind of insurance! JMO. It has been said that you may never be struck by lightning, but people ARE struck by lightning.
For a small monthly fee no matter which insurance you get, you WILL sleep better knowing you won’t go bankrupt if lightning strikes.

Be SAFE and shoot often!
Thank you so much Execpro,

I will call and get CCW Safe as well.

I don't want to overthink it.

Last edited by goodoboy; 08-14-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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  #55  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:13 PM
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$50 grand is the minimum you're going to pay after it's all said and done with in a justified shooting. The perps family will come after you in a civil suit is what I've been told by professionals and police.
In some state, i.e. Arizona, if your shooting is found to be justified, you cannot be sued by the perp or his family. Just FYI.

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Old 07-13-2018, 07:20 PM
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In some state, i.e. Arizona, if your shooting is found to be justified, you cannot be sued by the perp or his family. Just FYI.

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NC has similar protection.
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  #57  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:53 PM
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Google Castle Doctrine, and see if the state you live in has it.
While you are at it, look up, "shill".
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  #58  
Old 07-13-2018, 07:54 PM
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Hello,

In the gun store today when looking at guns, the salesperson ask me do I have USLawSheild which protects me with lawyer and court fees, if I shoot some one during a home invasion protecting myself and family.

He said, I will go to jail if I shoot and kill someone during a home robbery or invasion and the person family can sue me. And I need to be ready for court and lawyer fees, so I better get some kind of self defense lawyer protection monthly fee.

Is this true? Sounds weird to me. I shoot someone breaking in my home, and I go to jail.

Thanks
You have been given some great advice here. I will add that besides buying (and reading) Massad Ayoob books, take his MAG 40 class! It is 40 hours long and you will walk away from the class with a solid understanding of defending yourself with lethal force. Mr. Ayoob is the Master of this topic and his course is second none! You will benefit greatly and he will answer all of your questions.
Here's a link if you decide you want to get trained:

https://massadayoobgroup.com/events/category/mag40/

Stay safe!
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  #59  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:35 AM
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Al Gore did not intend the internet to be used for obtaining
Legal , financial or relationship advice.
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  #60  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:43 AM
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Your life (including your financial situation) will almost certainly change forever, and not for the better....
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  #61  
Old 07-17-2018, 08:14 AM
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Don’t get brain surgery done in a brothel, and don’t get legal advice in a gun shop. That way you will never end up with a lobotomy and in jail.


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  #62  
Old 08-02-2018, 12:05 AM
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In our Conceal Carry Law if its a good shooting the Perps family can't sue you !!

In Illinois
“In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.”
In other words, homeowners that are justified in using force to prevent a trespasser from entering a dwelling are also protected from any liability from the act. Neither the trespasser, nor his/her family may make any claim against the homeowner.
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Old 08-02-2018, 02:49 AM
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Couple things.

First, thanks for resurrecting a real dumpster fire of a thread. Which, yeah, I'm contributing to.

Second, it's the Justifiable Use of Force section of the Illinois Criminal Code. It's got nothing to do with concealed carry at all.

Three, anybody can sue anyone for anything. All you need is a lawyer who'll try with you (ha! puns!).

Four--where are you getting "trespasser" from? The Illinois statutes specify entry with the intent to commit a felony, and "violent" forcible entry. That's not trespassing, and there's a really big difference. This is an area where being precise in your language is life-or-death important.

Five, the Illinois statute states, "against the person or estate of the person using such justified force". You can't sue the shooter. But you could probably sue the homeowner if they're not the shooter.

Six, "unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct." You can pretty much bet that, absent an acquittal, you're wide open with this one.

Now, this isn't to suggest that the Illinois law is bad, as laws go.

What I'm suggesting is that relying on laws to protect you is utterly foolish. The truth is you have no protection.

Laws are frequently poorly-written and ambiguously-worded. They are administered and applied by people who are at best fallible human beings, and at worst your sworn enemies. All of us here carry a gun because, while we may have great respect for the police and believe they are doing their utmost to protect us, we do not rely on them for safety.

So why would you place any more faith in laws, DAs, and judges?
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2018, 10:04 AM
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I'm figuring no matter how or where -- shooting someone, there will be some ambulance chasing lawyer who will sue you no matter if its your fault, their fault or nobody's fault. Probably ruin your life. Most recently the incident in the parking lot where the guy "stood his ground". I would bet he wished he never got out of his car.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:14 AM
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Default DON'T ASSUME.

Don't assume that SYG will CYA. (my free advice)
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  #66  
Old 08-02-2018, 02:01 PM
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Hello,

In the gun store today when looking at guns, the salesperson ask me do I have USLawSheild which protects me with lawyer and court fees, if I shoot some one during a home invasion protecting myself and family.

He said, I will go to jail if I shoot and kill someone during a home robbery or invasion and the person family can sue me. And I need to be ready for court and lawyer fees, so I better get some kind of self defense lawyer protection monthly fee.

Is this true? Sounds weird to me. I shoot someone breaking in my home, and I go to jail.

Thanks
This is America, land of the free !
You are free to sue anybody for any reason, real or imagined .
Lawyers love lawsuits because they always get paid !
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  #67  
Old 08-16-2018, 03:51 AM
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As others have said, some states have the castle doctrine and some of those states have written into law, that the homeowner cannot be sued by anyone for wrongful death, stemming from lawfully shooting someone in the defense of his home and family. I would be nervous living in a state that does not have specific protections for people who are forced to defend themselves in their homes. (Montana is one state that has such laws.)

As for the gun shop you were in and they were telling you that 'you will go to prison' etc. I have a strong suspicion that they are making a commission or referral fee on every new insurance subscription they sell. You probably would never go to prison or even be arrested, if the shooting that you were involved was justified.

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Old 08-16-2018, 07:36 AM
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I certainly don’t know the correct legal answer, but I do know if you or your family are in harms way and your last resort is to shoot.....you can rest soundly and have a smile knowing you’ve done the right thing to protect your home, property and loved ones.
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  #69  
Old 08-16-2018, 09:38 AM
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I'm an attorney practicing in Texas. Part of my practice is criminal defense.

Each state has different laws. Within each state you have differences in what a prosecuting attorney does w shooting cases based upon his interpretation of his state's law. The local politics existing in your area plays a part too even though it shouldn't.

This isn't what you guys want to hear. In a perfect world the law would be clear cut. I'm not going to debate your opinions of the law unless you're a practicing attorney and buying the first scotch. That isn't arrogance it is experience from having discussed legal issues on gun boards before. I will give some very basic common sense advice.

Get advice from a local criminal defense attorney. He will understand all the issues where you live. For instance off hand I have no idea of what another state's law on an issue really is when you get down to details. I have no idea what your local prosecutor thinks. I have no idea of your local politics. Those things make a difference.

Getting legal advice on deadly force issues off the internet, at the gun shop counter or from your brother in law who used to get drunk w a cop buddy is like getting medical advice from the guy who cuts your hair. I don't see that as a wise course of action. Your local licence course teacher might and only might have a basic understanding of the law. My 1st CHL instructor was actually a Judge who was also a serious gun guy. He taught classes to attorneys only back then. Your instructor no idea what he really knows.

As for insurance products they aren't expensive. The odds of you needing the insurance are in your favor BUT can you afford a GOOD attorney if you need one? You can easily spend $100K or more defending a murder case. To steal a slogan "WHAT'S IN YOUR WALLET?" If the answer is not that much an insurance card might be a good idea plus the card from the local attorney that you went to for advice.

Finally get your legal advice on any legal issue from a qualified attorney who you can call w questions or if bad things happen and you need him.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:25 AM
Old Arkansawyer Old Arkansawyer is offline
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Will you go to jail for shooting someone who has broken into your home, especially at night? Not if I am on the jury.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:39 PM
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Too many believe that Castle Doctrine or SYG is cart blanche to start pulling a trigger. There still must be threat of death or extreme bodily injury. A drunk kicking your door in, unarmed, is really breaking & entering. So you still need to prove fear of death or extreme bodily injury. Even then, that only gets you free of criminal charges. What the survivor or their family get in a civil suit is an unknown, but expect it.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:47 PM
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Not an entirely accurate coverage, especially the "they have a murder to solve" Murder is a criminal act. The homeowner who lawfully defends himself has not committed a murder. They have a homicide to investigate (the death of a person at the hands of another person) which may be justified or unjustified.

And yes, more information should be given during the initial call such as " a man broke into my home and threatened/attacked me and/or my family" Try being a cop rolling on a shooting where the shooter and or offender is unidentified and all you have is "someones been shot" . You want them to have information that helps sort out the wheat from the chaff. I'm not talking about a complete blow by blow description but a means to identify yourself as the victim/good guy.
You beat me to the punch! Great post, Goldstar 225.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:21 PM
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While anyone can in fact file a lawsuit, those laws do keep most attorneys from filing a wrongful death (type) suit. I have seen a couple of incidents involving controversial shootings in this state that resulted in no charges being filed or the shooter being acquitted. While the offender's family threatened to sue, the reality was they were never going find an attorney to file.

The odds of the case being dismissed on summary judgment are pretty high, and while most judges will not pull up their Huggies and impose financial terms for the frivolous filing, it is not a zero risk. There is also a non-zero risk of a Bar complaint if there is such a dismissal. While I have absolutely no faith in our Bar counsel (to be polite about it), Bar complaints are a pain in the butt even when dismissed right away.

If I were involved in defending the shooter, I would sure as heck seek terms and do the Bar complaint. We have a local "attorney" who is a royal pain the backside, and who files some of the worst drivel I have ever seen. I have had to respond to two of those, and the only thing that saved him in the first was we did not have time to do the request for terms due to the time constraints. (He did lose his job - his boss got a royal gnawing from me when I served our response, and asked my colleague after the argument for her feedback, which was harsh.)As to the second, I was able to cite authority that shows he was dishonest, and have sought terms. We shall see how that goes.
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Old 08-16-2018, 05:22 PM
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In some state, i.e. Arizona, if your shooting is found to be justified, you cannot be sued by the perp or his family. Just FYI.

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FYI, anyone can be sued. Whether it is allowed to go forward is the question. It is still likely going to cost you time & money to have it turned down by a judge.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:12 PM
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Being sued is nothing compared to being put into the criminal meat grinder.

Next unless you have a lot of money you probably won't get sued for a shooting. Even if it is a bad shooting on your part do you think a lawyer is going to take a contingency fee case when he can't collect a verdict? In Texas I can't touch your homestead your retirement plan or garnish your wages. A lot of your personal property is exempt. If I can't find non-homestead real estate you own or a bank account in your name unless you have a going business or a big brokerage account I can't collect a dollar from you. Your homeowners or general liability insurance doesn't cover either because the type shootings we're discussing are intentional acts which aren't covered. Other state's laws may differ but that is why you consult an attorney where you live not the internet, the coffee shop crew or the guy at the gun counter.

Stories about frivolous lawsuits are usually made up or exaggerated. The people telling those stories often have an ax to grind or an agenda or sometimes an opinion without a basis for that opinion. In 30 plus years of practicing law I've never seen a defendant say yeah I deserved to get sued! A lot of the urban legend frivolous lawsuits are made up. No one can tell you where they happened or provide you with the style and cause number. If you look at the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit and see what really happened most people are appalled that the lady who got badly burned got so little. There is a reason why McDonald's got a confidentiality agreement in exchange for settling the jury verdict. BTW she was burned badly enough to require multiple skin graft operations on her private parts. Her medical bills were around 200k if I remember correctly. FYI I also handle personal injury litigation. While I have lost a few cases no defense lawyer or court has ever contended any of my cases were frivolous nor have I ever lost a personal injury case in a summary judgment (No case as a matter of law) or a court ordered directed verdict (not enough evidence to let the jury decide the case). I've handled car wrecks, airplane crashes, products injuries, slip and fall cases, dog bites, medical negligence ECT. I've got a good basis for my opinions. I've also handled defending against those type cases.

The real issue for getting one of the insurance plans in a lot of states is covering the cost of a good criminal defense attorney. For most people that may be a good idea. Finally I don't sell that type insurance and don't recommend a particular company. I do recommend looking into getting one particularly if you don't live in a gun friendly state.

I know that wandered from will I get arrested if I shoot an intruder but the topic always wanders into getting sued when you talk about shootings. I am interested if anyone actually knows of an INTENTIONAL NOT ACCIDENTAL shooting lawsuit that they can identify other than a police shooting where a governmental unit is potentially on the hook. I actually dont know of any.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:20 PM
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Putting your actual location would get you more factual responses as the laws are so different in different locations. Helpful in other area's also. Just a suggestion, some folks don't feel comfortable giving out that info, each to their own. I can't say what you should do, personally the last thing I would want to do is shoot someone, however, if someone breaks into my home through locked doors I'm not going to spend time asking him if he or she wanted to borrow a cup of sugar. That door was locked for a reason, if you don't have a key or weren't invited in you are here for no good reason.
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  #77  
Old 08-16-2018, 11:45 PM
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In Texas, we have the "Castle Doctrine" which gives you the right to protect yourself and family in your home, vehicle or place of employment. No warnings necessary.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:47 AM
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I also live in Texas..

There are too many different scenarios or combination of events that would justify shooting a intruder inside your home. More than we can list here. Just because there is a unknown person inside your home is not a automatic license to shoot. There has to be a very good reason why you feared for your life that caused you to use deadly force. And this is where people get into trouble...
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:16 AM
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...
A drunk kicking your door in, unarmed, is really breaking & entering. So you still need to prove fear of death or extreme bodily injury.
...
First, my disclaimer - IANAA. I think it must depend on where you live. My state is middle of the road self defense law wise. Here, if someone kicks in your door when you’re inside, it’s considered a home invasion.

From the cases I’ve seen here where that’s happened, the homeowner wasn’t required to ask the home invader how much they had to drink or if they were armed before using deadly force. It was considered self defense.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:42 AM
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yes your going to jail. at least for a time, if nothing more just tell your side. SHUT UP! you can sue anyone for anything it's just the cost of a filing fee. not saying that insurance is a bad idea, But with car, house, fire, flood, health, dental, vision, income, motorcycle passenger,pet insurance, not to mention extended warranty on every little thing you buy, I need another job just to buy food and pay taxes.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:03 AM
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I reccomend "i would like to have my attorney present before i give a statement" i have seen too many clients who couldnt shut up. You have too much to risk when a shooting is involved. Also I doubt you're at your best after having just shot and possibly killed someone.

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Old 08-17-2018, 09:13 AM
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I reccomend "i would like to have my attorney present before i give a statement" i have seen too many clients who couldnt shut up. You have too much to risk when a shooting is involved. Also I doubt you're at your best after having just shot and possibly killed someone.
What’s your take on giving a mini-statement before talking to an attorney in a self defense shooting? The “I was pumping gas. He pulled a knife on me. I drew my pistol and shot until he dropped the knife. His knife is there. Those two people are witnesses. I’ll give a full statement after I talk to my attorney.” kind of thing.

Some of the CCW Insurances recommend a mini-statement. Some don’t.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:51 PM
Czechvar Czechvar is offline
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Never heard of a ‘mini statement’. I do know that a ‘nothing statement’ cannot be used against you later...and that’s all I would not say. I’m paying $20 a month for access to a Lawyer who speaks Legalese much better than I do. If I prematurely open my big mouth, it might significantly increase the amount of time it would take my Lawyer to extricate my foot from said mouth.

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Old 08-17-2018, 03:08 PM
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Hello,

In the gun store today when looking at guns, the salesperson ask me do I have USLawSheild which protects me with lawyer and court fees, if I shoot some one during a home invasion protecting myself and family.

He said, I will go to jail if I shoot and kill someone during a home robbery or invasion and the person family can sue me. And I need to be ready for court and lawyer fees, so I better get some kind of self defense lawyer protection monthly fee.

Is this true? Sounds weird to me. I shoot someone breaking in my home, and I go to jail.

Thanks
THERE IS NO CUT AND DRIED ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION....

YOU MUST FAMILIARIZE YOURSELF WITH THE LAWS, IN YOUR PARTICULAR JURISDICTION, TO UNDERSTAND THE LIMITS OF AN ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE ON YOUR PART, TO SUCH A SCENARIO.....
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:01 PM
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In Texas, we have the "Castle Doctrine" which gives you the right to protect yourself and family in your home, vehicle or place of employment. No warnings necessary.
So you shoot the neighbor kid who is drunk & stumbles into your home thru an unlocked door or climbs thru an unlocked window thinking it's his house. yeah get back to me about castle doctrine. There still has to be fear of death or bodily injury. A simple B&E is not gonna cut it, Texas or anyplace else.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:39 PM
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So you shoot the neighbor kid who is drunk & stumbles into your home thru an unlocked door or climbs thru an unlocked window thinking it's his house. yeah get back to me about castle doctrine. There still has to be fear of death or bodily injury. A simple B&E is not gonna cut it, Texas or anyplace else.
Nice try, no cigar. You moved the goal posts.

In your post #71, you didn’t say a drunk stumbled through an unlocked door or climbs through an unlocked window. You said a drunk was KICKING in the door. Two totally different circumstances.
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Old 08-18-2018, 05:30 AM
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Too many believe that Castle Doctrine or SYG is cart blanche to start pulling a trigger. There still must be threat of death or extreme bodily injury. A drunk kicking your door in, unarmed, is really breaking & entering. So you still need to prove fear of death or extreme bodily injury. Even then, that only gets you free of criminal charges. What the survivor or their family get in a civil suit is an unknown, but expect it.
Maybe where you live kicking someone's locked door in is considered acceptable behavior to gain entrance, not in my world. In that case I am more concerned with death or injury than I am with a lawsuit. Someone kicks my door in and comes thru it I'm not going to take the time to ask if they are armed or if there's something I can help them find.
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:03 AM
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yes your going to jail. at least for a time, if nothing more just tell your side. SHUT UP! you can sue anyone for anything it's just the cost of a filing fee. not saying that insurance is a bad idea, But with car, house, fire, flood, health, dental, vision, income, motorcycle passenger,pet insurance, not to mention extended warranty on every little thing you buy, I need another job just to buy food and pay taxes.
I am not going to jail or even be arrested if I shoot someone in my home, unless the DA can present some solid evidence that it was something besides defense of self or home to a district judge and get a arrest warrant from him. Written into law in Montana. Dead guy in your house, they have to some proof it was criminal prior to arrest. Not just it mighty be, and my wife is an attorney, so if I even said hello to the police she would be POed. One of her legal acquaintances will answer any questions, thank you. Good bye.

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Old 08-18-2018, 09:03 AM
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The problem w a mini statement is knowing when and being able to shut up. The comedian said in a routine "I had the right to remain silent but I didn't have the ability.".

Think about the last fuss you got into with your wife. Shooting someone then dealing with the police will be more stressful. If you couldn't figure out when and how to shut up in a fuss w your wife, you won't be able to do it with the police.

I really recommend getting to know a local lawyer who if you call him about something this serious will either get to the scene or the jail ASAP. You're much better off w a good lawyer between you and the police.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:06 AM
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Steelslayer if you think the police call the local DA before they make an arrest you're wrong. If a cop decides to arrest you you're gonna get arrested either by him or the local equivalent of a SWAT team.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:06 PM
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Thank you, I live in a Stand Your Ground state, so that means I do not have to retreat and hide right?



States That Have Stand Your Ground Laws - FindLaw


Do yourself a favor, find a class or something, or buy the insurance.

Free legal advice is worth what you paid, and could end up costing you a whole lot more.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:15 AM
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Steelslayer if you think the police call the local DA before they make an arrest you're wrong. If a cop decides to arrest you you're gonna get arrested either by him or the local equivalent of a SWAT team.
The local equivalent of a SWAT team is a a couple of deputy sheriffs with shotguns and in the middle of the night they have to wake them up. Once again, in your home you will not be arrested for killing someone who doesn't not reside there unless the the district judge signs a warrant based on evidence presented by the county attorney. This isn't Texas. Its Montana. Your house is your domain. They can set out at the end of the driveway and wait for the warrant. They can call on the phone and ask for the warrant. But, they need that warrant. If you are on some ones place uninvited or after you were told to leave you are guilty of trespass. Best haul freight. My driveway is also clearly marked No Trespassing. The sheriff has to have a solid reason to even come to my door. The door mats my wife got us say. "Come back with a warrant".

You can be arrested for domestic battery in your home without a warrant. Thats about it. They can't serve anything, but a felony warrant at your home. Your HOME, Your CASTLE. If I am out camping my tent is the same as my home.

You can not arrest a elected sheriff, a county commissioner or a legislator while the state government is in session in Montana with out a district court order. Lots of interesting arrest laws here. I can't be arrested for anything but a felony or breach of peace on my way to or from voting.( (1) Electors shall in all cases except treason, felony, or breach of the peace be privileged from arrest during their attendance at election and in going to and returning from the same.)

Also, if law enforcement puts cuffs on a person here it is an arrest, they can't just do it to restrain you while they investigate.

I want to drive around with 20 loaded guns in my car thats fine even without any permit. In sight out of sight, what ever. Open carry, no permit. Outside the city limits engaged in a lawful activity you can carry concealed WITHOUT a permit. Like I said, "This ain't Texas"

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Old 08-21-2018, 08:07 AM
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plan ahead:
1. have a ready dug grave in your backyard
2. Shoot the BG
3. Bury the BG
4. plant a rose garden over the grave.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:10 PM
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4. plant a rose garden over the grave.
I especially like the neighborhood beautification touch.

You really do care.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:15 PM
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So you shoot the neighbor kid who is drunk & stumbles into your home thru an unlocked door or climbs thru an unlocked window thinking it's his house. yeah get back to me about castle doctrine. There still has to be fear of death or bodily injury. A simple B&E is not gonna cut it, Texas or anyplace else.
*
Putting aside the change in underlying assumed facts, if you have a door unlocked for any reason other than to go through it, pay someone to administer slap therapy until that stupidity is corrected. If you have windows open for ventilation, the ones easily reachable, like ground level, should not be opened more than a few inches, and should have a physical barrier that has to be forced. This reduces the risk of such a event, makes noise, and provides evidence in your favor. Anyone who doesn't understand such simple foundational concepts probably needs a guardian more than a gun.

As for what will justify a prosecution in terms of legal analysis and local political environment, that's an outcome hard to predict with certainty unless one is really familiar with the precise community in question.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
plan ahead:
1. have a ready dug grave in your backyard
2. Shoot the BG
3. Bury the BG
4. plant a rose garden over the grave.

Jimmy - I fixed this for you
1. have a ready dug grave in your "neighbors" backyard
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