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Old 07-11-2018, 08:55 PM
goodoboy goodoboy is offline
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Hello,

In the gun store today when looking at guns, the salesperson ask me do I have USLawSheild which protects me with lawyer and court fees, if I shoot some one during a home invasion protecting myself and family.

He said, I will go to jail if I shoot and kill someone during a home robbery or invasion and the person family can sue me. And I need to be ready for court and lawyer fees, so I better get some kind of self defense lawyer protection monthly fee.

Is this true? Sounds weird to me. I shoot someone breaking in my home, and I go to jail.

Thanks
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:02 PM
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Google Castle Doctrine, and see if the state you live in has it.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:05 PM
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A lot depends on the state you live in. Certain states have "Castle" laws which allow you to use deadly force in the defense of your home or vehicle. Some only allow you to defend yourself if your life is in eminent danger and you have no means of escape. Others do not allow deadly force under any circumstance. As to civil action, anyone can sue you for anything and, regardless of merit, it will cost you a sizable sum to defend yourself.

USLawShield is insurance, pure and simple. Whether it is worth the price or not is for someone else to determine.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:17 PM
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You need to read Masaad Ayoob's excellent book: DEADLY FORCE, UNDERSTANDING YOUR RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE. It can be found on Amazon for around $20
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:39 PM
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Last month I took my renewal class, and the instructors did some time on this topic. They are the same instructors I’ve had for the last 10 years so I do trust them. There is a difference between “Insurance” and the ‘Membership’ types of Legal Protection. A lot has to do with whether they cover costs up front for you or reimburse you. You definitely need to research.

I signed up with Firearms Legal Protection (FLP) during that class and it was sold by the Instructors I mentioned. It is a Membership type...sort of like a Co-Op structure. A lot of people, probably most, don’t have any legal coverage outside of their Homeowners policy or their Umbrella policy. I pay $20 a month and I have Legal coverage in any State where my Permit is valid...which is some comfort to us.

Tomorrow night I’m going to a Seminar at my Range put on by one of the guys running FLP...They are covering legal rights, what to expect after a shooting, etc.

Quote:
What is the difference between prepaid legal services like Firearms Legal Protection and insurance?

Pre-Paid Legal Services - A pre-paid legal services membership covers attorney fees incurred by a member who lawfully uses a firearm in self-defense. Most of these plans only cover attorney fees, not expert witness or investigator fees or charge extra for this protection. These fees and many others are included in Firearms Legal Protection premium plans.

Under a pre-paid legal services plan, normally your attorney is located and provided for you. Some insurance plans make a big deal about this, but it is done for many reasons, one is the plan providers have researched and should have contracted with attorneys who are experienced in Criminal Law and/or have notable experience handling firearm self-defense cases. This is the case with Firearms Legal Protection. We are proud to offer local, experienced Criminal Law attorneys and/or attorneys who specialize in firearm self-defense cases. With Firearms Legal Protection you always retain your right to reject your attorney and ask for another one.

Insurance Plans

In short, if you purchase a self-defense insurance plan and subsequently use your firearm in self-defense, you personally will pay attorney fees and expect to be reimbursed up to the limits of the policy. Your reimbursement is contingent on being fully acquitted or if the charges are dropped before trial. If you are not acquitted or the charges against you are not dismissed but instead you enter into a plea bargain with the State or go to trial which ends in a hung jury or a conviction, the legal fees you have already paid for your criminal defense will not be reimbursed.

Your criminal trial also affects insurance coverage for any civil case brought against you. If you are found guilty at trial or accept a plea bargain, your civil insurance coverage ends. And, the normal course is for the insurance carrier to choose and hire the attorney handling your civil trial. Further, under most insurance policies the insurance carrier has the right to settle any civil matter or case without your permission.

Is Firearms Legal Protection considered insurance?
Absolutely not. Obtaining legal services through Firearms Legal Protection membership is not considered insurance but rather a legal protection service plan providing uncapped payment for attorney fees. You never pay a deductible or co-pay as you are required to do with most insurance plans.

How is your program different from other legal services programs?
Firearms Legal Protection differs in three ways:

1) We pay your attorney fees directly for both criminal and civil actions. Unlike most legal protection plans, we are not an attorney reimbursement system.

2) We take the time to research and provide you with a local attorney who is experienced in Criminal Law, and/or has experience handling firearms related incidences where self-defense occurs.

3) We provide the most comprehensive protection at the lowest price while never sacrificing member service.

Last edited by Czechvar; 07-11-2018 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:06 PM
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It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't say it's a certainty, that you could go to jail for defending yourself, especially if the facts/circumstances are less than clear. Same with civil suits. In some jurisdictions with Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground laws, certain presumptions are in place that help protect people from such things. Some jurisdictions also provide immunity from civil suits if the shooting is deemed justified. It's important to know the law where you live.

As far as legal protections, I'm a member of ACLDN. They provide financial assistance, have a network of lawyers, will provide expert witnesses if necessary, and cover you for self defense whether a firearm was used or not. They also provide a lot of educational materials. There are lots of organizations around. It's best to do your research and find an organization that meets your needs.

If you're interested in getting Ayoob's Deadly Force book mentioned, let me know. I have an extra copy and I'd be glad to send it to you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:07 PM
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A lot of it depends on your state or city. If you're in a gun friendly area, then they won't be gung-ho to prosecute. If you live in a city where the D. A. wants to make a name for him/herself, then it may be different. I live in Alabama and I wouldn't worry about being prosecuted. Had a lady shoot (not fatally) her estranged husband this week and most were upset she didn't kill him.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:16 PM
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If you shoot someone, under about any circumstance, you will need competent legal representation. How you obtain it is certainly up to you, and there are several avenues. Thinking about it in advance is a good idea.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:17 PM
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Thumbs down FREE ADVICE, NUFF SAID.

That is why this person is working as a clerk in a gun shop & NOT a partner in a big law firm. NO 100 % guarantees about the POTENTIAL fallout with about any shooting (insurance or not), in my NON LEGAL opinion. What else did he say you MUST HAVE?
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:22 PM
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A lot depends on the District Attorney, but here's my take.
Insurance, nice to have, but you never want to use it.

If you kill someone in your home and the cops arrive, they have a murder to solve. You did it, so that's an issue for you. You are guilty at that point, now you have to justify it. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes not so easy, especially if the intruder isn't dead.


I took my defense and other courses years ago. The LT of a local police department was giving his spin on concealed carry, home defense, etc. He is all in favor of you protecting yourself, but you'd better be prepared to defend yourself after the fact. If you are innocent, depending on the DA and circumstances, you could spend $75,000 clearing up that legal mess Then there's the civil matter.

You just killed an armed intruder, who was threatening your family's safety. Unfortunately for you, he was also the sole provider for a family of his own and they are seeking recourse. So, they take you to court for killing the only source of income they had.

So, yeah, the costs can add up. Walk away and when possible, run. If an intruder comes into your home, you don't have much choice. Stand your ground, protect your family, but don't "hope" the rest will work itself out. Hope isn't a strategy. Chance favors the prepared mind. For instance:

You just shot someone in your house. Once your family is secured, you must immediately call for medical assistance for the intruder, or you're I trouble. But keep your mouth shut!

You call 911 and say,"A man has been shot and needs medical assistance. My address is XXXXX." Then hang up. You've done everything you're require to do. Then dial your attorney, who you already know has self defense experience. Don't say, "I just killed a guy who was threatening my family!" When the police arrive, the only facts they'll be able to confirm is that a man is dead and you've already confessed to his murder. That's a problem for you. The Supreme Court has ruled: A police officer's duty is not to protect and serve. It is to enforce the law and that's what they'll do when they arrive.

Stay safe.

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Old 07-11-2018, 10:56 PM
S&W629 S&W629 is offline
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Here in Oklahoma....the CCW instructor...had these words to repeat....when the law arrives...."I was in fear for my life".....castle doctrine takes care of the rest
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmerThanYou View Post
Google Castle Doctrine, and see if the state you live in has it.
Thank you, I live in a Stand Your Ground state, so that means I do not have to retreat and hide right?

States That Have Stand Your Ground Laws - FindLaw
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josywales View Post
A lot depends on the District Attorney, but here's my take.
Insurance, nice to have, but you never want to use it.

If you kill someone in your home and the cops arrive, they have a murder to solve. You did it, so that's an issue for you. You are guilty at that point, now you have to justify it. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes not so easy, especially if the intruder isn't dead.


I took my defense and other courses years ago. The LT of a local police department was giving his spin on concealed carry, home defense, etc. He is all in favor of you protecting yourself, but you'd better be prepared to defend yourself after the fact. If you are innocent, depending on the DA and circumstances, you could spend $75,000 clearing up that legal mess Then there's the civil matter.

You just killed an armed intruder, who was threatening your family's safety. Unfortunately for you, he was also the sole provider for a family of his own and they are seeking recourse. So, they take you to court for killing the only source of income they had.

So, yeah, the costs can add up. Walk away and when possible, run. If an intruder comes into your home, you don't have much choice. Stand your ground, protect your family, but don't "hope" the rest will work itself out. Hope isn't a strategy. Chance favors the prepared mind. For instance:

You just shot someone in your house. Once your family is secured, you must immediately call for medical assistance for the intruder, or you're I trouble. But keep your mouth shut!

You call 911 and say,"A man has been shot and needs medical assistance. My address is XXXXX." Then hang up. You've done everything you're require to do. Then dial your attorney, who you already know has self defense experience. Don't say, "I just killed a guy who was threatening my family!" When the police arrive, the only facts they'll be able to confirm is that a man is dead and you've already confessed to his murder. That's a problem for you. The Supreme Court has ruled: A police officer's duty is not to protect and serve. It is to enforce the law and that's what they'll do when they arrive.

Stay safe.
Thanks for the explanation.

Sounds like alot of work if someone breaks in your house. Perhaps its better to raise the window up and just run out the back yard through the fence and let the intruders do what they need to do.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContinentalOp View Post

As far as legal protections, I'm a member of ACLDN. They provide financial assistance, have a network of lawyers, will provide expert witnesses if necessary, and cover you for self defense whether a firearm was used or not.
Thanks ContinentalOp,

Who else provides insurance coverage for self defense?
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:01 AM
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He said, I will go to jail if I shoot and kill someone during a home robbery or invasion and the person family can sue me.

I can tell you that I would have to wait until after-because if someone does the above, and it's a jailable situation, I want to be the one in jail, cause I'm not gonna talk it over with the home invader to see what he thinks. Fear is a mighty poor sales technique. JMHO.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josywales View Post
A lot depends on the District Attorney, but here's my take.
Insurance, nice to have, but you never want to use it.

If you kill someone in your home and the cops arrive, they have a murder to solve. You did it, so that's an issue for you. You are guilty at that point, now you have to justify it. Sometimes that's easy, sometimes not so easy, especially if the intruder isn't dead.


I took my defense and other courses years ago. The LT of a local police department was giving his spin on concealed carry, home defense, etc. He is all in favor of you protecting yourself, but you'd better be prepared to defend yourself after the fact. If you are innocent, depending on the DA and circumstances, you could spend $75,000 clearing up that legal mess Then there's the civil matter.

You just killed an armed intruder, who was threatening your family's safety. Unfortunately for you, he was also the sole provider for a family of his own and they are seeking recourse. So, they take you to court for killing the only source of income they had.

So, yeah, the costs can add up. Walk away and when possible, run. If an intruder comes into your home, you don't have much choice. Stand your ground, protect your family, but don't "hope" the rest will work itself out. Hope isn't a strategy. Chance favors the prepared mind. For instance:

You just shot someone in your house. Once your family is secured, you must immediately call for medical assistance for the intruder, or you're I trouble. But keep your mouth shut!

You call 911 and say,"A man has been shot and needs medical assistance. My address is XXXXX." Then hang up. You've done everything you're require to do. Then dial your attorney, who you already know has self defense experience. Don't say, "I just killed a guy who was threatening my family!" When the police arrive, the only facts they'll be able to confirm is that a man is dead and you've already confessed to his murder. That's a problem for you. The Supreme Court has ruled: A police officer's duty is not to protect and serve. It is to enforce the law and that's what they'll do when they arrive.

Stay safe.
Not an entirely accurate coverage, especially the "they have a murder to solve" Murder is a criminal act. The homeowner who lawfully defends himself has not committed a murder. They have a homicide to investigate (the death of a person at the hands of another person) which may be justified or unjustified.

And yes, more information should be given during the initial call such as " a man broke into my home and threatened/attacked me and/or my family" Try being a cop rolling on a shooting where the shooter and or offender is unidentified and all you have is "someones been shot" . You want them to have information that helps sort out the wheat from the chaff. I'm not talking about a complete blow by blow description but a means to identify yourself as the victim/good guy.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:13 AM
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Thanks all,

What is the best home self defense insurance for myself and wife. lol
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:29 AM
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Just a suggestion: in order to get the best advice with the least amount of back & forth, identify your location. "Inner City" in your profile may be intended as amusing, but actual City and State would provide much more useful info for questions like this, as well as for questions about the value of a firearm (very location dependent) or where to find ammo, or where to find a gunsmith or any number of other questions you might have.
Just an opinion to consider.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:58 AM
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...old saying...

...I'd rather be judged by twelve...

...than carried by six...
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:12 AM
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Anytime you use a gun then you can reasonably expect you might go to jail. It all depends on what went down and what you did and what you said to the cops.
One man waited in his basement for possible robbers and he killed them both. Because of his actions and his mouth he got a long time in prison.
There has been more than a few that used their guns in their homes supposedly for self defense that ended up in prison.
It has been said if you are involved in a shooting and you need legal counsel then you better have at least 25 grand to start out with.

I had Texas Law Shield but changed a few years ago to CCW Safe which pays more and in most cases will not cost me a dime out of my pockets. $140 a year and not need it or have no legal coverage and possibly pay out 200 grand. What! You don't have 200 grand you can use? That's a no brainer decision for me to make. Read all of the contract before you get a rude awakening should you need to use it. Like anything buyer beware. Assume nothing because you only get or don't get what the contract states.
Do you have car, home, theft insurance or do you even have a fire extinguisher? Yet you might think as little as $140 a year for legal defense is uncalled for.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:25 AM
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This thread is a dumpster fire.

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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thank you, I live in a Stand Your Ground state, so that means I do not have to retreat and hide right?
Read a Mas Ayoob book. As in, pop on Amazon and order it now. You need to. In the Gravest Extreme and Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense.

Short version, "Stand Your Ground" has nothing to do with your house. The "Castle Doctrine" refers to not having a legal obligation to retreat inside your home, while SYG refers to not being legally-obligated to retreat everywhere else.

However, just because there's no legal obligation doesn't mean retreat isn't the smart thing to do.

On top of that, not having a duty to retreat doesn't suddenly mean lethal force is justified. The majority of states, I think--I haven't sat around and counted--still require the subject to be an immediate, unavoidable, grave threat. At least a few, in the statutes, at least, allow for lethal force against intruders without an overt threat. But again, that's not a kite I'd try to fly.

Quote:
Sounds like alot of work if someone breaks in your house. Perhaps its better to raise the window up and just run out the back yard through the fence and let the intruders do what they need to do.
Uh, yeah. Not killing someone is always preferable to killing someone, even if they're real jerks.

Basically, you're asking the "Can I shoot someone if..." questions. Wrong thing to ask. It's the sort of question that makes CCW instructors figure out how to fail you (presuming they don't just call the issuing authority and report that you're completely insane). The correct question is, "Do I have to use lethal force?".

Quote:
Here in Oklahoma....the CCW instructor...had these words to repeat....when the law arrives...."I was in fear for my life".....castle doctrine takes care of the rest
It friggin' blows my mind that someone could work as a CCW instructor of some sort, and be that...for lack of a better term, stupid.

"I was in fear!" isn't magical legal teflon. You can babble about it all you want, your actions still have to meet the criteria of reasonableness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica793
A lot depends on the state you live in. Certain states have "Castle" laws which allow you to use deadly force in the defense of your home or vehicle. Some only allow you to defend yourself if your life is in eminent danger and you have no means of escape. Others do not allow deadly force under any circumstance. As to civil action, anyone can sue you for anything and, regardless of merit, it will cost you a sizable sum to defend yourself.
(1) Castle Doctrine has nothing to do with defending your property. Speaking of which, while there are a few defense-of-property states out there, I sure as hell wouldn't recommend trying it.

(2) Please point out to me which of these 50 states makes no provision for using deadly force in self-defense.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:29 AM
gman51 gman51 is offline
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Neither stand your ground nor the Castle Doctrine are legal grounds for defending property using deadly force.

I talked to CCW Safe about using a gun to stop a person from stealing my truck at night. He said you can't use deadly force to protect property. This scenario could open a can of worms and going to jail for any number of years isn't worth it to keep my truck from being stolen.

Call the cops and let the thief know the cops are on their way. If you approach with a gun then you might then be considered the aggressor and the thief was then afraid for his life. The old belief that anyone trespassing at night, even in your home, is grounds for using deadly force is not so cut and dried as some might be led to think. 12 people might think differently than you do.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:37 AM
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$50 grand is the minimum you're going to pay after it's all said and done with in a justified shooting. The perps family will come after you in a civil suit is what I've been told by professionals and police.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by goodoboy View Post
Thanks ContinentalOp,

Who else provides insurance coverage for self defense?
You should do a search if you haven't already as this has been discussed a number of times. But off the top of my head I can think of US LawShield, CCW Safe, and USCCA.

Also, no one can tell you what the best plan/organization for your family is. Search the forum, read the discussions, look at what each plan has to offer (and what they don't offer), and figure out what would work best for your situation. Some people have joined multiple plans that complement each other.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:42 AM
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Kinda sounds like & apologies if wrong. Another person that wants to be the first on the block to play cop/super sheepdog & shoot someone. In the unlikely event a kill or be killed event comes to you, it is good to be prepared ( I am) & think you will know what needs to be done AT THAT TIME. To desire/look forward to it, not so much. Be careful what you wish for. Peace out.

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Old 07-12-2018, 08:52 AM
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In PA, a 72 year old man was charged with killing an intruder. The intruder was a 52 year old, unarmed man, who kicked in the victim’s trailer door, when he was promptly shot to death. Now, they didn’t charge the shooter because the deceased was unarmed. The 72 year old shooter was denied the Castle Doctrine defense, because he had marijuana in his trailer. Based on illegal activity taking place inside the trailer, the DA denied the defense.

Moral of the story - make sure your teen doesn’t have a bag of weed under their bed! Once you fire a shot, the police could search the entire house, gun safes, etc. Have an illegal fireworks laying around? Are all your mattress tags in place? Heck, can an improper tax return (cheating on your taxes), be considered “illegal activity”???
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:56 AM
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Here's hopping none of us HAVE to go down this road. Your seeking legal advice and I don't know how many Lawyers have responded to you. Be careful where you get information and a clerk in a gun shop is not someone I would put much if any faith in. This is at best a difficult situation and each sceneiro has its complicated facts that need to be known. Be careful, do research and try not to let the bad guy in the house in the first place. Good luck.... Kyle
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:56 AM
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Since no one has yet suggested this here, if you have not already done so I would strongly recommend taking a concealed carry permit course for your locale and from a reputable instructor. They will go over pertinent state and local laws regarding self-defense and it would be prudent to heed all their advice. The two Ayoob books mentioned above are also excellent. Stay safe out there!
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:15 AM
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This helps, but of course you still have to front legal fees AND get the civil suit dropped:

“Under Section 7, the legislature added civil immunity, when the individual lawfully uses deadly force, as provided for in this legislation. Moreover, if you are sued and prevail by showing that you are entitled to civil immunity, the legislator has required that the court award reasonable attorney fees, reasonable expenses, and costs. This includes reimbursement of expert fees, and compensation for loss of income. While the courts ultimately have the final say in what is “reasonable,” at least the legislature has provided that they must award these fees, instead of “may” award these fees.”
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:54 AM
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In FL, neither a criminal nor civil case is likely for a home invasion.

Now if you happen to be a drug dealer with felony convictions and you shoot some thugs trying to rip you off, all bets are off.

I love how the internet gurus take a few cases of DA abuse and make it gospel for all legitimate cases of SD. Sometimes bad things happen to good people, but when the other option to not defending one's self is death, I'll take my chances with the DA.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:57 AM
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All I can say is your local gun shop is a good place for advice on GUNS. You want legal advice, research your state, local laws. And sign up for a CCW class

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:13 AM
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No one is, at least I’m not, trying to scare anyone away from defending themselves. The fact is, DAs change in/out, as does the GOP in any given city. Some regions of the US are consistent, others not so much.

Years ago, a pro gun magazine used to run a section for “unbelievable” results:

In Bethlehem, PA a crook broke into a bar overnight. The bar was closed and he broke in through the bathroom window, falling and breaking his leg. He sued the bar owner for failing to keep him out and creating a hazard. He was paid.

Another crook in Allentown, PA broke in to a house, while the owners were on vacation. He broke into the garage, but was unable to gain access to the house. Unfortunately for him, the garage door had no release, so he was trapped for the week. He lived off of warm soda and chips. He, too, sued he owners for unlawful inprisonment, etc.

These sound crazy, but trust me, in many areas of this country life is a$$backwards. What was that quote in SWAT: “Sometimes doing the right thing, isn’t doing the right thing.” Whatever the heck that means...

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:32 AM
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The short answer is yes you very well could depending on the area of the country you live in, and the circumstances of the shooting. It's all up to the DA in the county you live in.



There is no one answer...know the laws of your state concerning deadly force better than the DA's office and always protect yourself.
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:59 PM
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There are a substantial number of gun store employees who go off folklore and BS. They are no more qualified on legal and tactical issues than I am on judging a dance competition.

As part of your responsibilities that come with owning a firearm with the potential for serious use, you need to know some things about the use of it.

1) KNOW THE LAW in your jurisdiction. Most use of force laws are similar, but you MUST know what your state's laws provide. Most if not all states have their statutes on line and you can find them with any search engine. If you are really lucky, you can find annotated versions (they have case law with the statutes, showing how they have been interpreted). If you have a law school nearby, you an check the books themselves and read the annotations. Without doing such research, you simply cannot even ask informed questions, let alone know the answers.

2) Go read this string here: CHL holder trying to break up a fight loses pistol, is killed by police. There is at least one book (the one by Patrick and Hall) that I recommend, which although directed at LE, has very good information about self-defense generally, ballistics, threat recognition, and the like. You MUST know these things before you make a decision about using force, so you can articulate from a position of knowledge why you did what you did. What you learn AFTER the shooting is not relevant. You should also search for and read the cases I cite. I do this stuff for real as a prosecutor, author, and teacher.

3) There are a few strings on home defense in which I have laid out some pretty decent advice on layers of deterrence. The more difficult it is to enter your home unlawfully, the less likely someone will try. That also contributes to the reasonableness of your belief that force is needed. At my house, I have floodlights over the side facing the street, "no trepassing" signs, so it is not even lawful to enter the property, a 6 foot padlocked chain link fence, and my doors are never unlocked except to go through them (and if yours are ever unlocked for longer than that, slap yourself and fix your complacent mindset). We also have medium sized protective dogs (a rott and a rott X, both in the 80-90 pound range). If someone tries to get in despite the response of the dogs and after going through the other layers, they are really a bad actor, and once the door frame breaks, there is no other conclusion to draw.

4) Know your local culture with regard to private citizen and LE use of force. Where I live, the culture will give a collective shrug and it will be over. I expect that to change in this state, sadly, and plan to move upon retirement. If you live someplace dumb, err, less supportive (CA, NJ, MD, MA, other occupied territories), the response might be different.

5) Special note: I don't have kids, and we almost never have anyone in the house. I can do some things that others can't. If you have kids, the proper means of storing a firearm is ON YOUR PERSON. Loaded, ready to use, in a qualify holster, with a quality belt, on you. Not in a closet, on a shelf, in a safe, or some other brain dead paradigm.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:24 PM
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I find a lot of the comments a bit toward fairy tales of how life should be.

In my town, regardless of how a firearm is used, or how right you are in using it, you will spend a least a few hours detained while things are sorted out. So the literal question of "will I go to jail" for me means YES. For how long all depends on the circumstances.

And a recent local case had a sandbox vet who legally carried and used a CCW in a parking lot incident at his apartment. Even though he was free and clear for the situation as far as police were concerned, he was still given an eviction notice for having violated a lease provision regarding open display of a "weapon". That same clause is in every Texas apartment lease from the association that dogs us with 36 pages of lease details every year.

Using the back door has got to be cheaper.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
That is why this person is working as a clerk in a gun shop & NOT a partner in a big law firm. NO 100 % guarantees about the POTENTIAL fallout with about any shooting (insurance or not), in my NON LEGAL opinion. What else did he say you MUST HAVE?


Going to a gun shop to get legal advice is like going to a gas station to get medical advice. The clerk was probably looking for some kind of commission.


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Old 07-12-2018, 03:44 PM
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This legal service appears to me as the worst of fear mongering.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:47 PM
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No one is, at least I’m not, trying to scare anyone away from defending themselves. The fact is, DAs change in/out, as does the GOP in any given city. Some regions of the US are consistent, others not so much.

Years ago, a pro gun magazine used to run a section for “unbelievable” results:

In Bethlehem, PA a crook broke into a bar overnight. The bar was closed and he broke in through the bathroom window, falling and breaking his leg. He sued the bar owner for failing to keep him out and creating a hazard. He was paid.

Another crook in Allentown, PA broke in to a house, while the owners were on vacation. He broke into the garage, but was unable to gain access to the house. Unfortunately for him, the garage door had no release, so he was trapped for the week. He lived off of warm soda and chips. He, too, sued he owners for unlawful inprisonment, etc.

These sound crazy, but trust me, in many areas of this country life is a$$backwards. What was that quote in SWAT: “Sometimes doing the right thing, isn’t doing the right thing.” Whatever the heck that means...
Is everyone familiar with the term “Bronx Jury”
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:34 PM
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Is everyone familiar with the term “Bronx Jury”
Is that like, trusting your fate to twelve people too stupid to get out of jury duty?
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:07 PM
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An internet forum is not a great place to seek legal advice. There are a few good suggestions here interspersed with random opinions and outright bad advice.

Find a lawyer in your jurisdiction who is familiar with firearm law. Individual law enforcement officers may or may not understand the implications of your local Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws. A qualified lawyer will and can explain them to you.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:25 PM
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This legal service appears to me as the worst of fear mongering.
To a certain degree, you are correct. The statistics are sort of like your Homeowners Policy. The odds are you’ll never file a claim. But if that Hurricane, or Tornado, or Fire, or whatever actually happens, you are just thanking the Lord you have it.

I can afford $20 a month, or $1800 a year for peace of mind. But I cannot afford $30K+ in legal fees in a self defense incident. Everyone has to decide for themselves what works for them.

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Old 07-12-2018, 06:23 PM
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You will probably get cuffed and get a ride downtown. You will need a lawyer. You may get sued, as anybody can sue anybody. You can countersue for expenses but reality is you will be going after somebody with not much money. What you do and say will be held against you. The good news is you are still alive to fight a suit. Preparation helps.

That and the number of a good lawyer.

You are not allowed to give a final shot to put the thief out of his misery, as a MN homeowner found out.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:39 PM
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Surprisingly enough the People's Republic of California is one of the better states in this particular regard. If you are in your home (and exactly what your home is can be sort of interesting in and of itself) the law presumes that the use of deadly force against an intruder is justified. It is a rebuttable presumption, but the DA has to prove that your use of deadly force was NOT justified. You don't have to prove it was.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:46 PM
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Spent many hours looking at all the CCW insurance. Some only covered certain States or use of handgun only or found not guilty and only then reimbursed you a certain amount ect..
I purchased CCW Safe. You can get it for you and your wife,covers criminal and civil law suits,bail ect.. you can even get 1 million pay out in a civil suit if you lose with NO out of pocket expense!
This was my choice. There are some good comments above.
Good luck on your search. If you carry a gun or have one for home defense you NEED some kind of insurance! JMO. It has been said that you may never be struck by lightning, but people ARE struck by lightning.
For a small monthly fee no matter which insurance you get, you WILL sleep better knowing you won’t go bankrupt if lightning strikes.

Be SAFE and shoot often!
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:51 PM
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WOW.

My advice: Use birdshot. You have almost no chance of killing them.

Problem solved.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:04 AM
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As a general rule any person may sue any other person for any actual or alleged wrong. If you are sued you will have two choices: (1) you may ignore the complaint, in which case there will be judgement entered against you by default, or (2) you may defend against the complaint, in which case you will incur legal fees and court costs (hint: good lawyers charge more per hour than many of us ever earned per week, and they don't want to turn off the faucet until the cistern is dry).

Nothing needs to be proven in order to file a lawsuit, only allegations must be made. In a criminal case the standards are innocent until proven guilty, and beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case (lawsuit) the standards are preponderance of the evidence, and guilty until proven innocent.

You may purchase liability insurance coverage to protect yourself against such claims. In the final analysis this not only does not stop lawsuits, it may encourage a lawsuit (plaintiff learns that there is an insurance company on the hook). Attorneys retained by your insurer will be primarily concerned with protecting the insurer; protecting you will be a secondary (although closely associated) priority. When the insurance company's bean counters see a claim, they will start estimating how much it might cost to defend that claim, and the initial response might well be an offer to settle for "nuisance value" (less than projected legal fees and court costs). Plaintiffs' lawyers understand this very well, and will pursue any case, under any fact situation, just for a quick payday on "nuisance value".

As far as being arrested goes, an arrest requires a showing of probable cause, i.e.: knowledge of facts and circumstances that would cause a reasonable man to believe that a crime has been committed, and a particular individual committed that crime. You may (probably will) be detained and questioned, perhaps repeatedly. Best advice I can offer is to simply state "I was in fear for my life and I was forced to defend myself. I have nothing more to say until I am represented by an attorney".

Once you have invoked the right to legal counsel nothing else can be done that can possibly result in admissible evidence. SHUT UP, LAWYER UP, MAX OUT THE CREDIT CARDS AND PAY THE RETAINER, AND LET YOUR LAWYER DO ALL OF YOUR TALKING FOR YOU. You are under no obligation to assist the state in building a case against you. Do not sit there like a dunce and let investigators and prosecutors question you over and over again, perhaps for hours, going over every detail, while you get tired and your memory slips a bit on sequence of events, words spoken, etc, etc, etc; all that will result is reports that show inconsistencies in your statements, which will not look good for you at the court house.

A final bit of advice: Don't wait until you need a lawyer to find one. Most reputable lawyers will allow you a brief consultation to discuss possibilities of representation without fee, or at minimal cost. Find a lawyer whose experience includes self-defense issues, one that you trust, and keep his number on speed-dial. Then, in addition to "I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE AND I WAS FORCED TO DEFEND MYSELF" you can add "I HAVE CALLED MY ATTORNEY AND I AM WAITING FOR HIS RESPONSE BEFORE I HAVE ANYTHING FURTHER TO SAY".

Don't get your dental work done at an auto body shop. Don't get your legal advice from a sales clerk at a gun store. Don't rely on internet forums for the best in criminal or civil law advice.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:29 AM
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Another thing to know: what does your state have for civil immunities? We have a pretty broad statute here in WA - if one is injured as a consequence of committing a felony, the victim has complete immunity. While a suit can be filed, the odds of such are low since the offender cannot collect.

RCW 4.24.420: Action by person committing a felony—Defense—Actions under 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:51 AM
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I talked to CCW Safe about using a gun to stop a person from stealing my truck at night. He said you can't use deadly force to protect property.
Assuming that "west of Houston" means you're still in the Great State of Texas, CCW Safe was wrong. Legally, yes you can.

Texas Penal Code, Chapter 9, relevant sections:

SUBCHAPTER D. PROTECTION OF PROPERTY

Sec. 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or

(2) the actor reasonably believes that:

(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;

(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or

(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, Sec. 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josywales View Post
Some regions of the US are consistent, others not so much.
Years ago, a pro gun magazine used to run a section for “unbelievable” results:
In Bethlehem, PA a crook broke into a bar overnight.
Another crook in Allentown, PA broke in to a house, while the owners were on vacation He, too, sued he owners for unlawful imprisonment, etc.
30+ years ago a thief broke into a home in Bucks County Pa. while family was out. They arrived home, perp left through rear/side entrance and tried to go over a wrought iron fence, slipped and impaled his arm on the fence. Police arrived, found the perp with items from the home, he went to the hospital. He was the " only source of income " for his family, they sued and won. I tried but could not find the newspaper report which had names, times, results- Sorry. What was true yesterday, may not be today. I would suggest talking to a Criminal Defense lawyer in your area to determine what your liability may be. Be Safe,
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:23 AM
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My plan is to never shoot another person. I am kind and polite even when it's not reciprocated. Been working for 40 years. If'n it does happen my legal issues will be last on the list of considerations. Joe
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