Hi Smith friends,

I just posted an issue to the 2nd Amendment forum section titled "2nd Amendment is not enough." It's about Florida recently becoming the first state in the nation to fully recognize and protect a right to self defense.

Maybe it should have gone in this section instead.

Just letting you know. Thanks.

Florida started the modern CCW movement; maybe they'll start this movement, too!

I lived in Massachusetts for 27 years, commanded a sheriff's department and was an Academy firearms instructor. I even had a Massachusetts license to possess a machine gun. When I retired I moved to Florida. Best move I ever made! A CCW permit Is still required but 2nd amendment rights are not Disrespected.Just like anywhere else you had still better be in fear of imminent death or grievous bodily harm to exercise that right, but it can be exercised, unlike in Taxachusetts and many other states. It's great to be back in Dixie!

Missouri leads the way.
No state issued permit needed for open or concealed carry.
Stand your ground law.

The 2nd Amendment is revered and honored in Missouri.
Now that's living in a Free state.

That ranks right up there with the "right" to breath, IMO. Will I need a license & pay taxes for that too? Big of them to grant us something we were born with.

If you move to Illinois you may qualify for a FOID (Firearms Owners Identification Document), a nice little pocket-sized card you may carry with you wherever you go, which is their friendly way of reminding you that your name is on THE LIST.

The right to self-defense is inherent in the right to life, the right to liberty, and the right to pursuit of happiness.

As recently as the late 19th Century many prominent scholars, and most mainstream churches, equated one's failure to act in self-defense with an act of suicide (frequently expressed as self-murder).

Of course, most communities in the US had no regular law enforcement presence prior to the latter 19th Century. Citizens were expected to fulfill their civic obligation (i.e.: militia duty) by apprehending those who violated the law, delivering those persons to the sheriff, and appearing in court to give testimony at trial.

Today the attitude has shifted considerably. Citizens are generally discouraged (even prevented by law) from getting involved. The common advice is to call 911 and wait for the cops to sort things out. Good luck with that if you are under imminent attack! The largest and most generously funded law enforcement agencies measure response times in multiples of minutes (20 to 40 minutes average response times to reported crimes in progress are not unusual, and 60% of America's law enforcement agencies are not staffed for 24-hour per day coverage, so response times can be expressed in hours, or perhaps days in some cases).

I carry car insurance but I don't look forward to a traffic accident. I carry homeowners insurance but I don't want to watch my house burn down. I carry a sidearm but I don't want to be in a gunfight. Some things are just better to have and never need than to ever need and not have.

Unfortunately, I also find it prudent to keep a lawyer's phone number on speed-dial, just in case I ever find myself involved in a self-defense situation.

As many people pointed out in the other thread, you have incorrect information. Many, most states recognize the right to self defense through Stand Your Ground laws and case law. You need to do a little more research.

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Support your Police, & NRA

Kentucky, my adopted home state, is shall-issue, castle-doctrine, stand-your-ground, with open carry legal and concealed carry licenses simple to get.

Sounds as if Florida is playing catch up.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Yeah, I should have explained the new Florida law better. It's true that in other states you can argue self defense once you are in trial. But by the time you are in trial, your life is half-ruined already. And the burden is on you to prove your innocence, not on the prosecutor to prove your guilt.

Castle, Stand your Ground, and other self-defense principles do not protect you during pre-trial. Your lawyer cannot (realistically) move the court to dismiss your case on the basis of self defense.

Outside Florida, you simply will not have the opportunity to argue self-defense prior to trial. In those states, there are some prosecutors who will look favorably on self-defense, and there are some prosecutors who won't. It's solely at their discretion.

To be clear, I'm not trying to give legal advice, push CCW insurance, or anything else. Just want people to know what rights we still don't enjoy in most states.

"

Perhaps YOU should brush up on the laws (nation wide), BEFORE presuming to tell people what's what.

IMO stick to doing whatever PI's do. I am certainly no lawyer & have little understanding regarding the complexities of the legal system, in my area, let alone the whole nation.

People should not provide (blanket) legal advice or opinions if it is not an area of personal expertise, especially where the law varies by state or municipality.

I see a lot of misinformation being distributed which is not to anyone's benefit.

The intentions may be good but the result of someone relying upon bad advice can bring serious repercussions.

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642-1, M&P15 TS

Ouch...I can't visualize how you came to those conclusions.

Castle doctrine dates back to English common law. Duty to retreat/SYG fluctuates with the wind. None is peculiar to FL,
and everything matters at every phase "post shooting",
everywhere...and the implied concept that SD and SYG renders
an individual immune to prosecution in Florida would amuse
a guy with initials of "GZ".

I posted in your other thread, probably should've posted in this one instead but I didn't see it.
Anyway, I think you need to rethink.
Anyone can be charged and arrested for anything at any time, it's always going to come down to how a prosecutor wants to handle it.
Unless Florida has taken "Manslaughter" out of the law books, it's still illegal to kill someone no matter what the circumstances are.
Look up FL manslaughter laws and you will find out it's still illegal to take a life and at some point you will have to defend your actions. How far into the system you need to go will be determined by prosecutors, just like in any other state.

Don’t know where you operate or what you do but given you are posting wrong info, I do question your stated profession.

Be safe.

If he knows as much about shooting as he does about the law, I'd say he's ready to hang a shingle as a "tactical firearms instructor".

Last i looked, burden of proof has always been on the prosecution in the usa. Are there over zealous, antigun prosecutors, sure. Still doesnt mean you do not have rights. It all starts with the responding LEO.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Best advice for anyone involved in a shooting anywhere under any circumstances. If you are taken in for questioning, say nothing and call a lawyer.

Yes, I do. And I don't just think it, I know it. No two ways about it.

Case closed.

In my 30 yrs as a LEO I have seen many more people talk their way into jail than out of it.

If faced with the choice of defending oneself or dying, there aint much of a choice. In the heat of the moment I hope I won't be thinking of possible repercussions.

Right now , no …….
But that could change in the year 2020

This is such an overly broad and for the most part incorrect assertion that it is impossible to respond to in a meaningful way. There are at least 51 different answers, and hundreds of sub-answers . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

In Ohio, self defense is an affirmative defense, which means the burden is on the defendant to prove he met all if the conditions. Ohio does have castle doctrine, but it can be challenged by the prosecutor. If the challenge is successful, then castle doctrine goes away and the case reverts back to an affirmative defense situation.

I don't know what a prosecutor must prove in order to successfully rebut castle doctrine.

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Common sense isn't so common.

Guys, the OP is correct here; the pile on is uninformed.

Put simply, Florida is the only state in the union that offers someone who has used deadly force in self-defense the chance for immunity from prosecution by claiming prima facie justification under stand your ground laws at a pre-trial hearing.

The new(ish) law enforces a court presumption that the defendant's claim is true, and that it is incumbent upon the prosecution to refute it by producing clear and compelling evidence that the remaining thresholds for justifiable use of deadly force in self-defense -- innocence, imminence, reasonableness, proportionality -- have not been met.

This is distinct because:

1) It occurs pre-trial and opens the door to immunity from prosecution.
2) In claiming immunity, the defense need not prove their claim is true (previously they did), the prosecution must prove it is not true, and to a higher threshold than previously required (clear and compelling evidence, versus simple preponderance of it).

OP is not saying that there's no right to self-defense in other states, only that the way the laws are written and enforced versus Florida's that by comparison they are anti self-defense.

The two threads on this subject should be merged...

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Pickpocket

My take is that ANY burden of proof on the defendant would be BEFORE the actual trial begins, like at arraignment, NO???

Generally, yes. But not so under the Florida law.

Again, in Florida, if the defendant claims stand your ground and requests immunity at the pre-trial hearing, the burden of proof goes to the prosecution to provide clear and compelling evidence that the self-defence act failed to meet necessary thresholds to justify use of deadly force; if the prosecution fails, the defendant is granted immunity from prosecution.

That's very different from how it apparently works anywhere else.

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Pickpocket

In these parts, Stand Your Ground decisions are made before the charge is ever filed. That is, the SYG law is applied as the prosecutor makes a charging decision, thus saving a true SYG shooter from the vagaries of the legal system . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

And if you're dealing with an activist prosecutor? Florida appears to apply a meaningful hedge against that that Missouri doesn't.

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Pickpocket

I knew that would be the response. Missouri prosecutors, one notable exception aside, don't seem to make a habit of being "activist . . . "

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Hardly the point...and in the case of your lone activist, exactly the point.

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Pickpocket

I'm not here to argue. My point is that there's rarely been a law that was able to properly substitute for fact based charging decisions. More often than not, a hard and fast no tolerance my hands are tied rule creates more problems than it solves . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Agreed; there are no solutions to the problems of society, only trade-offs. The merits or lack thereof of the Florida approach isn't in question, only explicating the process for those that weren't tracking.

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Pickpocket

And Life Coaching available on request....