Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 07-20-2018, 12:34 PM
Muss Muggins's Avatar
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: southeast Missouri
Posts: 10,020
Likes: 3,888
Liked 13,713 Times in 4,674 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
. . . We are talking spitting distance, likely inside 12ft. A cool head, decent shot can put that rd into that 1" circle, every time, no specialized gun required. Btw, the eye socket is quite a bit biggr than a quarter, closer to 50c piece, but now we are just picking nits.
Duly noted . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:09 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,142
Likes: 1,343
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,571 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
What I'm suggesting is that the difficulty of the shot should be included in the effectiveness arithmetic. There are lots of places on the body that result in instant disability. The problem is that hitting them reliably is too difficult for humans to pull off.

In other words (and here I'm using numbers in the abstract, to illustrate the argument, hence the quotes...there's really no such thing as an "X%-effective hit), if a particular "hit" somehow did result in 100% incapacitation, but could only be attempted successfully 1 in 20 times, it's not 100% effective, it's only "5% effective". On the other hand, a hit that only achieved a stop 40% of the time, but could be made successfully one out of every two attempts, would be "20% effective".

Anyways, my customary blow-by blow.



Which is precisely my point. Everybody more or less accepts that shooting guns out of people's hands is pure fantasy. And it's no more difficult than the eye shot. Which is why I wrote

"If you can hit a 1" circle on demand, then it stands to reason that you should also be able to shoot the gun out of your attacker's hand. But we all know that's a fantasy. So if you accept that you can't shoot the gun out of someone's hand, on demand, why would anyone think they could reliably make the eye-socket shot?"

I even underlined it.



One thing is that I really doubt it, but that's about all you can do. There are no solid statistics on DGUs.

Two is that we're not talking about hitting a nice black circle on a sunny day at the range. We're talking about hitting an ill-defined area that happens to be moving, and attached to a person that's trying to kill us.

Three is that the average shooter is incapable of hitting a 1" circle at even three yards, on paper, at the range. This is, in fact, a drill that's often suggested to students. It's mean to teach one to focus on their application of the fundamentals, by removing the ability to blame the gun, the sights, the ammo, etc. The only difference is that most folks normally suggest a 2.5-3" circle.
I agree the avg shooter, civi or LEO can barely shoot 2-3" @ 7y on demand @ high speed under some stress. For many of us though, hitting a given spot on your target, animate or paper, not an issue at that distance, even under high stress. It is why we practice & train after all, to ba able to do the diff under stress. As noted, if you can not do it on a flat range every thing standing still, zero pressure, it wont likely happen in a gunfight.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:10 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,142
Likes: 1,343
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,571 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Both breath and adrenalin control would be equal parts
in your accuracy in a high stress situation he was presented ..

He did have a slight advantage in that he heard them coming and least
was ready with his weapon unknow to the perp .. Who may well
have had intention of raping the woman once in the house and was
over occupied by those thoughts ..

I would like to know a little about his training history and how
many rounds lifetime he has shot !!
While round count has merit, what you do with those rounds is more important. A lifetime of plinking at beer cans isn't going to prepare you for such a confrontation imo. Also if one is highly trained but never practices enough to put the training into play, also not likely to have a good outcome.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:56 PM
Walkingwolf's Avatar
Walkingwolf Walkingwolf is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 1,398
Liked 1,311 Times in 650 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoothshooter View Post
The shooter, not the gun, makes the difference.
No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:38 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
US Veteran
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,739
Likes: 1,258
Liked 2,407 Times in 1,185 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
While round count has merit, what you do with those rounds is more important. A lifetime of plinking at beer cans isn't going to prepare you for such a confrontation imo. Also if one is highly trained but never practices enough to put the training into play, also not likely to have a good outcome.
Since my daughter was born I have practiced 1 to 1.5 inch 1 shot headshots .. she was also taught to kick and fight and squirm around as much as possible .. and would do it after key words were said ..

2 paper plates lapped over 1 a 12 inch and the other 4-6 inches ..shoot at distances of 5 , 10 15, and 20 feet ..

Small plate hit and you just killed your child ..
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:34 PM
Muss Muggins's Avatar
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: southeast Missouri
Posts: 10,020
Likes: 3,888
Liked 13,713 Times in 4,674 Posts
Default

What do you charge for personal protection? Clearly, you are the exception . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I agree the avg shooter, civi or LEO can barely shoot 2-3" @ 7y on demand @ high speed under some stress. For many of us though, hitting a given spot on your target, animate or paper, not an issue at that distance, even under high stress. It is why we practice & train after all, to ba able to do the diff under stress. As noted, if you can not do it on a flat range every thing standing still, zero pressure, it wont likely happen in a gunfight.
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-20-2018, 08:35 PM
Wise_A Wise_A is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 2,052
Liked 2,979 Times in 1,268 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.
Here's sum funny.

One is that most pistols are what the average Cletus would call a "tack driver". Doesn't matter what the gun is, it'll probably shoot under 4" at 25 yards. But most shooters can't really do that, and mostly, how bad the sights suck is the real limiting factor.

Now, this is the part where you run to your favorite gun rag, and start pointing out a bunch of guns that didn't shoot 4"/25y in "testing". Protip: gun'riters scrape a living out of writing about guns. Not shooting guns, not shooting good groups, just "writing about guns". What would you rather read--the incoherent ramblings of a barely-literate pistolero, or a well-written article by an average shooter?

Two is that competitive shooters buy expensive, highly-accurate pistols because of feedback, not points. Take, for instance, my own match 1911. It's a fair bit more accurate than I am. I'm generally happy shooting five or six 10s (10-ring being a .9" circle at 50 feet, for these purposes). My pistol will happily print that same size group at 50 yards.

The reason I shoot a pistol that is literally three times as accurate as I am, is because if I shoot a 9, I know it was me and not the pistol.

As to professional shooters, I don't know very many. Most of them are on this thing called the AMU, and I know a bunch of guys that are excellent competitive shooters that are professional marketers and such, but really, I don't know of too many guys making a living off winning pistol matches. In any case, all of them have accurate guns because accurate is part of The Best, and it doesn't matter what The Best costs. They're gonna have it.

Quote:
Since my daughter was born I have practiced 1 to 1.5 inch 1 shot headshots .. she was also taught to kick and fight and squirm around as much as possible .. and would do it after key words were said ..

2 paper plates lapped over 1 a 12 inch and the other 4-6 inches ..shoot at distances of 5 , 10 15, and 20 feet ..

Small plate hit and you just killed your child ..
So let me get this straight.

You're gonna take this Uber Precision High-Stakes Shot, and you want the target to be moving as much as possible? Seems legit.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-20-2018, 09:42 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 294
Likes: 392
Liked 498 Times in 163 Posts
Default

Good for him.

It's all too often that you hear of thugs taking family members as hostages to get someone to surrender, and when/if they do then the thugs just kill them anyway like the contemptuous, dishonorable *******s they are, so it honestly seems like you're better off fighting back, ergo the husband made a good call.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #59  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:19 AM
Stevens's Avatar
Stevens Stevens is online now
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 1,461
Liked 1,907 Times in 847 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
While working for a Cuban women, her father raised hogs & dispatched them with a knife somewhere in the head/neck, NOT slitting it's throat, always wanted him to teach me that one. WHY I have no idea.
In many places the pig's blood is used to make a sausage, Boudin in French here in Louisiana or Morcilla in Spanish. Slitting the throat the pig stays alive, his heart pumping and squealing like crazy while he is held down, usually on a table or bench with a bucket under the throat to catch the blood,
That sausage is very good too.
Steve W
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:04 AM
Okie21 Okie21 is online now
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: central Pa
Posts: 255
Likes: 586
Liked 357 Times in 134 Posts
Default

After reading thru this entire thread, I ask my self one question. Would I be able to make a head shot on a bad guy holding a loved one hostage?
I have no idea. And I don't ever want to find out. I routinely shoot an 8" Dirty Bird target at 10yds and I hit it with every shot with all 4 of my pistols including my carry gun. I also shoot at 2" circles at 3-5 yds regularly. But this is at a range, practicing and having fun. Having to do this in a life or death situation is a totally different story.
This is why we practice. This is why I believe if you own a firearm and you carry one out in public, you need all the practice/training you can get. If it's in your hand, you better know what to do with it.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #61  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:26 PM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 2,371
Liked 3,399 Times in 1,353 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Remember that thing I said about head shots not being a guaranteed one-shot stop?

Yeah. That.
The goal is to STOP the threat not KILL the threat.
From what I read in the article, the round did exactly that.
__________________
Stay protected my friends.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #62  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:40 PM
Protected One's Avatar
Protected One Protected One is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 2,371
Liked 3,399 Times in 1,353 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,
I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.
Wrong gun for the situation.
__________________
Stay protected my friends.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-21-2018, 09:06 PM
elm_creek_smith's Avatar
elm_creek_smith elm_creek_smith is offline
US Veteran
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Territory
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 1,268
Liked 1,808 Times in 734 Posts
Default

Not necessarily. His wife sees him point that at HER, faints, and clears the line of fire! Boom!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
Wrong gun for the situation.
Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
__________________
CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #64  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:56 PM
SATX's Avatar
SATX SATX is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 286
Likes: 216
Liked 259 Times in 132 Posts
Default

Ninja star to the forehead. I saw that in a Kung fu movie where the lips are out of sync with the words. That **** works.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #65  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:32 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
Member
Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 785
Likes: 5,905
Liked 637 Times in 316 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Protected One View Post
The goal is to STOP the threat not KILL the threat.
From what I read in the article, the round did exactly that.
Having read Wise_A's posts, I think you missed his point, he was writing about the difficulty of successfully making a shot to someone's eye, given the conditions presented in the situation presented; earlier, he made the point that a head shot is not necessarily fatal. Whether the shot kills the perp or not, you are still using deadly force.

If you miss a tiny target like the eye, and have missed your opportunity to take down the perp by that action, you have made a bad situation worse.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-22-2018, 01:56 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,142
Likes: 1,343
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,571 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
I guess you have ESP. Why is it you hear of people with little to no gun experience making good shots when called upon to do so? NOT SAYING practice is bad, You can't have too much IMO. It's just that on any given event an exp shooter may miss or freeze, & a novice/no exp makes the shot. Stuff happens.
Esp??
A novice golfer can make the occasional hole in one, but i wouldnt put money on him In a tourny. Its called better lucky than good. Yes the unskilled novice can be very lucky & win his fight, make the golden bb shot, More likely the bad guy is just that much worse. If practicing to a high level were not important, then swat & spec ops wouldnt spend 1000s of rds annually preparing for their fight??
Smart & savvy ccw do the same thing. Your fight may be with dedicated killers that are trained & skilled. Being medicore & lucky is fine, but I dont want to bet my life on it.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 07-22-2018 at 02:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:05 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,142
Likes: 1,343
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,571 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkingwolf View Post
No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.
The avg out of the box service pistol is more accurate than most shooters can hold. A stock glock 19 pwill hold 2"-3" @ 25y with good ammo. It will certainly hold 1" @ 21ft.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:08 AM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,142
Likes: 1,343
Liked 2,465 Times in 1,571 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
What do you charge for personal protection? Clearly, you are the exception . . .
Is there a question in there?
Fwiw, most of the guts i know that do such work are just very good, not exceptional shots. Their expertise are to keep the shooting from happening.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do you hide guns from your wife/husband? zzzippper The Lounge 50 01-04-2014 11:49 PM
Texas Husband Shoots Bank Robbers DigiRebel Concealed Carry & Self Defense 3 08-08-2013 11:33 AM
The Ex-Wife or Ex-Husband, whatever the case Hondo44 The Lounge 0 01-13-2013 04:52 PM
Husband saves wife/clerk from being shot ArmyCop Concealed Carry & Self Defense 4 09-23-2010 02:20 PM
So how did you meet your wife/husband/what not? GatorFarmer The Lounge 63 05-09-2010 12:49 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:51 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)