Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint

Muss Muggins · #51 07-20-2018, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

. . . We are talking spitting distance, likely inside 12ft. A cool head, decent shot can put that rd into that 1" circle, every time, no specialized gun required. Btw, the eye socket is quite a bit biggr than a quarter, closer to 50c piece, but now we are just picking nits.

Duly noted . . .

fredj338 · #52 07-20-2018, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise_A

What I'm suggesting is that the difficulty of the shot should be included in the effectiveness arithmetic. There are lots of places on the body that result in instant disability. The problem is that hitting them reliably is too difficult for humans to pull off.

In other words (and here I'm using numbers in the abstract, to illustrate the argument, hence the quotes...there's really no such thing as an "X%-effective hit), if a particular "hit" somehow did result in 100% incapacitation, but could only be attempted successfully 1 in 20 times, it's not 100% effective, it's only "5% effective". On the other hand, a hit that only achieved a stop 40% of the time, but could be made successfully one out of every two attempts, would be "20% effective".

Anyways, my customary blow-by blow.

Which is precisely my point. Everybody more or less accepts that shooting guns out of people's hands is pure fantasy. And it's no more difficult than the eye shot. Which is why I wrote

"If you can hit a 1" circle on demand, then it stands to reason that you should also be able to shoot the gun out of your attacker's hand. But we all know that's a fantasy. So if you accept that you can't shoot the gun out of someone's hand, on demand, why would anyone think they could reliably make the eye-socket shot?"

I even underlined it.

One thing is that I really doubt it, but that's about all you can do. There are no solid statistics on DGUs.

Two is that we're not talking about hitting a nice black circle on a sunny day at the range. We're talking about hitting an ill-defined area that happens to be moving, and attached to a person that's trying to kill us.

Three is that the average shooter is incapable of hitting a 1" circle at even three yards, on paper, at the range. This is, in fact, a drill that's often suggested to students. It's mean to teach one to focus on their application of the fundamentals, by removing the ability to blame the gun, the sights, the ammo, etc. The only difference is that most folks normally suggest a 2.5-3" circle.

I agree the avg shooter, civi or LEO can barely shoot 2-3" @ 7y on demand @ high speed under some stress. For many of us though, hitting a given spot on your target, animate or paper, not an issue at that distance, even under high stress. It is why we practice & train after all, to ba able to do the diff under stress. As noted, if you can not do it on a flat range every thing standing still, zero pressure, it wont likely happen in a gunfight.

fredj338 · #53 07-20-2018, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitwabit

Both breath and adrenalin control would be equal parts
in your accuracy in a high stress situation he was presented ..

He did have a slight advantage in that he heard them coming and least
was ready with his weapon unknow to the perp .. Who may well
have had intention of raping the woman once in the house and was
over occupied by those thoughts ..

I would like to know a little about his training history and how
many rounds lifetime he has shot !!

While round count has merit, what you do with those rounds is more important. A lifetime of plinking at beer cans isn't going to prepare you for such a confrontation imo. Also if one is highly trained but never practices enough to put the training into play, also not likely to have a good outcome.

Walkingwolf · #54 07-20-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothshooter

The shooter, not the gun, makes the difference.

No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.

Whitwabit · #55 07-20-2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

While round count has merit, what you do with those rounds is more important. A lifetime of plinking at beer cans isn't going to prepare you for such a confrontation imo. Also if one is highly trained but never practices enough to put the training into play, also not likely to have a good outcome.

Since my daughter was born I have practiced 1 to 1.5 inch 1 shot headshots .. she was also taught to kick and fight and squirm around as much as possible .. and would do it after key words were said ..

2 paper plates lapped over 1 a 12 inch and the other 4-6 inches ..shoot at distances of 5 , 10 15, and 20 feet ..

Small plate hit and you just killed your child ..

Muss Muggins · #56 07-20-2018, 06:34 PM

What do you charge for personal protection? Clearly, you are the exception . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338

I agree the avg shooter, civi or LEO can barely shoot 2-3" @ 7y on demand @ high speed under some stress. For many of us though, hitting a given spot on your target, animate or paper, not an issue at that distance, even under high stress. It is why we practice & train after all, to ba able to do the diff under stress. As noted, if you can not do it on a flat range every thing standing still, zero pressure, it wont likely happen in a gunfight.

Wise_A · #57 07-20-2018, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.

Here's sum funny.

One is that most pistols are what the average Cletus would call a "tack driver". Doesn't matter what the gun is, it'll probably shoot under 4" at 25 yards. But most shooters can't really do that, and mostly, how bad the sights suck is the real limiting factor.

Now, this is the part where you run to your favorite gun rag, and start pointing out a bunch of guns that didn't shoot 4"/25y in "testing". Protip: gun'riters scrape a living out of writing about guns. Not shooting guns, not shooting good groups, just "writing about guns". What would you rather read--the incoherent ramblings of a barely-literate pistolero, or a well-written article by an average shooter?

Two is that competitive shooters buy expensive, highly-accurate pistols because of feedback, not points. Take, for instance, my own match 1911. It's a fair bit more accurate than I am. I'm generally happy shooting five or six 10s (10-ring being a .9" circle at 50 feet, for these purposes). My pistol will happily print that same size group at 50 yards.

The reason I shoot a pistol that is literally three times as accurate as I am, is because if I shoot a 9, I know it was me and not the pistol.

As to professional shooters, I don't know very many. Most of them are on this thing called the AMU, and I know a bunch of guys that are excellent competitive shooters that are professional marketers and such, but really, I don't know of too many guys making a living off winning pistol matches. In any case, all of them have accurate guns because accurate is part of The Best, and it doesn't matter what The Best costs. They're gonna have it.

Quote:

Since my daughter was born I have practiced 1 to 1.5 inch 1 shot headshots .. she was also taught to kick and fight and squirm around as much as possible .. and would do it after key words were said ..

2 paper plates lapped over 1 a 12 inch and the other 4-6 inches ..shoot at distances of 5 , 10 15, and 20 feet ..

Small plate hit and you just killed your child ..

So let me get this straight.

You're gonna take this Uber Precision High-Stakes Shot, and you want the target to be moving as much as possible? Seems legit.

Echo40 · #58 07-20-2018, 09:42 PM

Good for him.

It's all too often that you hear of thugs taking family members as hostages to get someone to surrender, and when/if they do then the thugs just kill them anyway like the contemptuous, dishonorable *******s they are, so it honestly seems like you're better off fighting back, ergo the husband made a good call.

Stevens · #59 07-21-2018, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachogrande

While working for a Cuban women, her father raised hogs & dispatched them with a knife somewhere in the head/neck, NOT slitting it's throat, always wanted him to teach me that one. WHY I have no idea.

In many places the pig's blood is used to make a sausage, Boudin in French here in Louisiana or Morcilla in Spanish. Slitting the throat the pig stays alive, his heart pumping and squealing like crazy while he is held down, usually on a table or bench with a bucket under the throat to catch the blood,
That sausage is very good too.
Steve W

Okie21 · #60 07-21-2018, 11:04 AM

After reading thru this entire thread, I ask my self one question. Would I be able to make a head shot on a bad guy holding a loved one hostage?
I have no idea. And I don't ever want to find out. I routinely shoot an 8" Dirty Bird target at 10yds and I hit it with every shot with all 4 of my pistols including my carry gun. I also shoot at 2" circles at 3-5 yds regularly. But this is at a range, practicing and having fun. Having to do this in a life or death situation is a totally different story.
This is why we practice. This is why I believe if you own a firearm and you carry one out in public, you need all the practice/training you can get. If it's in your hand, you better know what to do with it.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Protected One · #61 07-21-2018, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise_A

Remember that thing I said about head shots not being a guaranteed one-shot stop?

Yeah. That.

The goal is to STOP the threat not KILL the threat.
From what I read in the article, the round did exactly that.

Protected One · #62 07-21-2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozark Marine

If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,
I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.

Wrong gun for the situation.

elm_creek_smith · #63 07-21-2018, 09:06 PM

Not necessarily. His wife sees him point that at HER, faints, and clears the line of fire! Boom!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protected One

Wrong gun for the situation.

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SATX · #64 07-21-2018, 10:56 PM

Ninja star to the forehead. I saw that in a Kung fu movie where the lips are out of sync with the words. That **** works.

adwjc · #65 07-21-2018, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protected One

The goal is to STOP the threat not KILL the threat.
From what I read in the article, the round did exactly that.

Having read Wise_A's posts, I think you missed his point, he was writing about the difficulty of successfully making a shot to someone's eye, given the conditions presented in the situation presented; earlier, he made the point that a head shot is not necessarily fatal. Whether the shot kills the perp or not, you are still using deadly force.

If you miss a tiny target like the eye, and have missed your opportunity to take down the perp by that action, you have made a bad situation worse.

fredj338 · #66 07-22-2018, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nachogrande

I guess you have ESP.

Why is it you hear of people with little to no gun experience making good shots when called upon to do so? NOT SAYING practice is bad, You can't have too much IMO. It's just that on any given event an exp shooter may miss or freeze, & a novice/no exp makes the shot. Stuff happens.

Esp??
A novice golfer can make the occasional hole in one, but i wouldnt put money on him In a tourny. Its called better lucky than good. Yes the unskilled novice can be very lucky & win his fight, make the golden bb shot, More likely the bad guy is just that much worse. If practicing to a high level were not important, then swat & spec ops wouldnt spend 1000s of rds annually preparing for their fight??
Smart & savvy ccw do the same thing. Your fight may be with dedicated killers that are trained & skilled. Being medicore & lucky is fine, but I dont want to bet my life on it.

fredj338 · #67 07-22-2018, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

No matter how good the shooter is, if the gun is not capable in a ransom rest of acceptable accuracy for pin point shots it is not going to make the gun magically a tack driver because of a more experienced shooter.

Why do you think professional shooters spend so much money on the accuracy of their guns? They don't do it to brag about how much money they spent.

The avg out of the box service pistol is more accurate than most shooters can hold. A stock glock 19 pwill hold 2"-3" @ 25y with good ammo. It will certainly hold 1" @ 21ft.

fredj338 · #68 07-22-2018, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muss Muggins

What do you charge for personal protection? Clearly, you are the exception . . .

Is there a question in there?
Fwiw, most of the guts i know that do such work are just very good, not exceptional shots. Their expertise are to keep the shooting from happening.