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Old 07-18-2018, 03:50 PM
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Default Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint

They're coming into your home holding your wife at gunpoint. How far are they going to take this? What do they really want? What are they capable of?

As far as I'm concerned, I've no choice. The fight has already started and I need to catch up.

Kudos to hubby on scoring the head shot.


Husband shoots would-be thief in head during foiled home invasion in South Houston, police say
July 18, 2018

"The incident started around 10:30 p.m., when the two men stole the woman’s purse while she was in the driveway of her home in South Houston."

"A man opened fire Tuesday night when a pair of would-be home invaders attempted to force his wife into their Houston home at gunpoint."

"Police said the men tried to force the woman into her house while her husband was inside. The husband heard noises coming from outside the home and looked out a window to see that the men had grabbed his wife.
He grabbed a pistol and confronted the men, exchanging gunshots with the suspects and injuring one of them."

Police: Man shoots suspected burglar holding his wife at gunpoint

Husband shoots would-be thief in head during foiled home...
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:57 PM
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That is scary stuff.

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Old 07-18-2018, 04:02 PM
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Why we train for head shots, and carry guns capable of more than just acceptable accuracy.
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:04 PM
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His wife was outside at 4:30AM? Wonder if she was tailed from a late shift? Also, he shot the guy in the head and he is still alive?

Too scary; glad I left Houston in 1980.

OOPS, noticed this was posted at 4:30 AM; thought that was the posting of the news story

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Old 07-18-2018, 04:10 PM
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Good shooting Tex!
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Old 07-18-2018, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
His wife was outside at 4:30AM? Wonder if she was tailed from a late shift? Also, he shot the guy in the head and he is still alive?

Too scary; glad I left Houston in 1980.
That is not uncommon, the purpose of head shots is not death but is to instant incapacitate the threat. I have seen numerous suicides where the person stayed breathing for days. A young girl in the seventies who survived a hatchet attack to the head lived for years.

Even if trauma does not kill or series injure a person/animal it almost always stuns the subject. It is how we stunned cows in the slaughterhouse before bleeding them out. A pneumatic device was used to stun, but did not kill the cattle.
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:00 PM
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I wonder if the round ricocheted? LOL
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Old 07-18-2018, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
Also, he shot the guy in the head and he is still alive?
Remember that thing I said about head shots not being a guaranteed one-shot stop?

Yeah. That.
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Old 07-18-2018, 07:33 PM
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Old 07-18-2018, 07:43 PM
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This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Remember that thing I said about head shots not being a guaranteed one-shot stop?

Yeah. That.
Friend took her nurses residency up in Chicago years ago and she tells of numerous people who had head shots and walked into emergency room ..

One man shot execution style in the back and side of the head woke up and drove himself to the ER with 4 - 38;s in his head that were visable under his scalp ..
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Remember that thing I said about head shots not being a guaranteed one-shot stop?

Yeah. That.

What was that?

"Police found the man lying in the driveway. He was taken to a hospital and into surgery. He is listed in critical condition."

Sounds like a one-shot stop to me.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitwabit View Post
Friend took her nurses residency up in Chicago years ago and she tells of numerous people who had head shots and walked into emergency room ..

One man shot execution style in the back and side of the head woke up and drove himself to the ER with 4 - 38;s in his head that were visable under his scalp ..

Numerous?

I wonder how many 1,000 lb steers have been dropped by a single .22 to the head? Maybe hundreds of thousands?
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:10 PM
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Numerous?

I wonder how many 1,000 lb steers have been dropped by a single .22 to the head? Maybe hundreds of thousands?
I worked in a local slaughterhouse when I was younger, started out using .22 to the head before going to the pneumatic stun. Cows always dropped, pigs sometimes took more than one bullet.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:14 PM
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Numerous?

I wonder how many 1,000 lb steers have been dropped by a single .22 to the head? Maybe hundreds of thousands?
I agree probably even more .. And that's what to me makes it so amazing one could survive a multiple head shooting .. but there have been people shot in the heart that have survived also ..

Others shot in the same place by the same ammo may have perished at a very high percent .. and those dead went to the morgue ..

Luck of the Draw ?? I don't know ..

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Old 07-18-2018, 10:19 PM
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I worked in a local slaughterhouse when I was younger, started out using .22 to the head before going to the pneumatic stun. Cows always dropped, pigs sometimes took more than one bullet.
Interesting. Thread drift, but I didnít realize they used .22ís on pigs. The hog operations I was around used an electric shock across their temples. Dropped them right away.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:26 PM
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I agree probably even more .. And that's what to me makes it so amazing one could survive a multiple head shooting .. but there have been people shot in the heart that have survived also ..

Others shot in the same place by the same ammo may have perished at a very high percent .. and those dead went to the morgue ..

Luck of the Draw ?? I don't know ..
Steers shot in the head are still breathing before being bled out. They always go down as do most humans shot in the head, though there are exceptions. Shots to the lower brain are more effective at pithing than cranial shots, but the stem is smaller and harder to hit. Pithing will stop the breathing immediately.

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Interesting. Thread drift, but I didn’t realize they used .22’s on pigs. The hog operations I was around used an electric shock across their temples. Dropped them right away.
Small plant usually no more than 10 cows, or hogs in one day.

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Old 07-18-2018, 10:28 PM
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I agree probably even more .. And that's what to me makes it so amazing one could survive a multiple head shooting .. but there have been people shot in the heart that have survived also ..

Others shot in the same place by the same ammo may have perished at a very high percent .. and those dead went to the morgue ..

Luck of the Draw ?? I don't know ..
My wife spent several years as an ER nurse. People would be brought in and when they evaluated their injuries it didn’t seem possible they could make it, but they did.

Others would come in with what looked like minor injuries and not make it out of the ER.

I suspect it has a lot to do with the individual’s resilience as well as the severity of the injury.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:46 PM
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This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,
I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:53 PM
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If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,
I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.
Egad, man! Surely you jest!?!?
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:04 PM
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It is said people shot with a handgun more often than not survive the gunshot. Even a head shot is not a guaranteed stop. Some reports told the bullet traveled under the skin following the skull without penetrating the skull.
People need to realize they could very possibly be involved in a gunfight rather than the fight ending in one shot. First thing I was told is that gun shootings are not like in the movies. One shot stops and instant death like in the movies are acting scenes not real life.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:42 AM
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I would grab my O/U with brenneke personal defense slugs. Head shots are easy standing unsupported to 25 yards. I have killed every manner of beast (squirrel, rabbit, dove, duck, goose, pheasant, turkey, coon, coyote, and many deer, the green brennekes will group under 2 inches all day long with both barrels, i/c choked, often touching at 40 yards with just front bead) with my Browning Citori White Lightening over the decades and I have imminent unflinching confidence in my ability to connect on high stress quick reaction moving or stationary targets. If given the choice of only one firearm, it would win hands down. ***** sorry for the semi off topic rant.

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Old 07-19-2018, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
Itís the shooter not the gun at typical driveway range. I know people who consistently group within a quarter at short distance using off the shelf guns.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:01 AM
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Default THE WIFE IS LUCKY.

Makes you wonder who the husband was really aiming at, did he miss? What prevented the 2nd guy from shooting the wife? NOT gonna second guess it, & go with, if both survived they did everything right.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:17 AM
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Other than tough guy talk and feelings about what the bad guy may deserve, remember, the goal should always be simply to "stop the threat" rather than to "kill". The less shots required, the better; however, continue to fire until the threat has been stopped. I would rather have a one shot stop, if possible, than a more than one shot kill.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:40 AM
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As a LEO, I trained for years with off-the-shelf revolvers (66 snubby and 4" 686) and Sig P228 and P229 after we transitioned to semi-autos. Along with other officers, I didn't need a customized handgun to achieve accurate head shots firing from out to 10 yards during range drills. My point is that if you train with a specific gun, using a consistant quality ammo, you don't need a customized handgun to achieve the desired outcome. What was the husband using in the incident described?
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:02 AM
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The head shot is from 5 yards in a 3 to the body, 1 to the head, target wearing body armor scenario. Starting position is standing, weapon holstered and secured. Time limit is 4 seconds. The handgun used here was a 4 inch S&W Model 686-6 loaded with Remington 158 grain SJHP .357 Magnum ammunition. The holster was a Gould & Goodrich cruiser holster with thumb-break and covered trigger guard on a duty belt.


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Old 07-19-2018, 11:17 AM
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Default RANGE PRACTICE IS ALL WELL & GOOD, BUT...

Don't expect that same level of performance in "the real deal" high stress situation, says CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. GLAD all's well & ended well. (as could be expected)

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Old 07-19-2018, 02:21 PM
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Don't expect that same level of performance in "the real deal" high stress situation, says CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. GLAD all's well & ended well. (as could be expected)
Very true. In a SHTF situation, your training will kick in, which is why I highly recommend realistic Simunitions, Soft Air, and Simulator training, all of which are available to the public. Mindset conditioning to help prepare for emergency situations is as important as marksmanship and muscle memory.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:09 PM
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Yeah I have to agree, fight starts when the guns come out, regardless of who fires the first shot. Well done by the husband.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:10 PM
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Don't expect that same level of performance in "the real deal" high stress situation, says CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. GLAD all's well & ended well. (as could be expected)
Certainly, but if you can NOT do it at the range, you will not rise to the occasion under extreme stress.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:12 PM
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It is said people shot with a handgun more often than not survive the gunshot. Even a head shot is not a guaranteed stop. Some reports told the bullet traveled under the skin following the skull without penetrating the skull.
People need to realize they could very possibly be involved in a gunfight rather than the fight ending in one shot. First thing I was told is that gun shootings are not like in the movies. One shot stops and instant death like in the movies are acting scenes not real life.
Why it should be called an eye shot. The bullet goes straight into the brain pan, lights out, party is over. Plus the eye is a very convenient aiming point.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:14 PM
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Accuracy is key-with foreknowledge, I would choose my Ruger Mk II-I could hit whatever part of him I wanted. If he sees I'm armed, he'd better not shoot the person he's holding-that's his only shield. His best move is to shoot me-and if he hasn't already, he may not, but I need to shoot him or leave quickly. Leaving will cause a "pursuit response" and might cause him to shoot me in the back. Once the armed confrontation has begun-he has taken away all of my other options-if he won't leave-I need to shoot him.
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Old 07-19-2018, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
More a confidence thing that a practical accuracy thing. Most stock pistols can deliver 50c piece accuracy @ 30ft. Unfortunately, most shooters can NOT under stress.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
I'm sorry but this is just bragging that you spent a lot of money. An experienced pistolero doesn't need a multi-thousand dollar gun to make the shot. He relies on training and practice and in my case at least, I shoot lots of matches competetively to learn to control the adrenalin.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Interesting. Thread drift, but I didnít realize they used .22ís on pigs. The hog operations I was around used an electric shock across their temples. Dropped them right away.
While working for a Cuban women, her father raised hogs & dispatched them with a knife somewhere in the head/neck, NOT slitting it's throat, always wanted him to teach me that one. WHY I have no idea.
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mike campbell View Post
What was that?

"Police found the man lying in the driveway. He was taken to a hospital and into surgery. He is listed in critical condition."

Sounds like a one-shot stop to me.
The key word is "guaranteed".

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Originally Posted by fredj338
Why it should be called an eye shot. The bullet goes straight into the brain pan, lights out, party is over. Plus the eye is a very convenient aiming point.
One...no. I don't think so. Plenty of people have not only survived traumatic brain injuries, but walked away from the scene. If they can walk, then they're more than capable of still being a threat.

Two, how big is the human eye? Well, the average eye socket is about .95"x.95". For reference, an American quarter is also .955". Ain't that a thing. Now here's where it gets interestin'.

If you can hit a 1" circle on demand, then it stands to reason that you should also be able to shoot the gun out of your attacker's hand. But we all know that's a fantasy. So if you accept that you can't shoot the gun out of someone's hand, on demand, why would anyone think they could reliably make the eye-socket shot?

The other problem is consistently hitting a fixed point. Most people can't do that. Even fewer are the ones that can do it on-demand, under pressure, at an unknown distance. Most folks shoot off-center groups, fact of life. Shooting a group the size of the 10-ring doesn't count if it's six inches to the left.

Which is the other reason why I don't think head shots are the "guaranteed" stoppers they're made out to be. Are they effective? Sure. Have they won gunfights in situations where the shooter was deliberately aiming for them? Certainly, and I can cite them (including the ones where it took several head shots to achieve a stop).

But "more effective" and "useful" are a long way from "guaranteed".
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,

I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.


I was waiting for that one. Going back to my popcorn. Husband Shoots Man Holding Wife At Gunpoint


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Old 07-19-2018, 04:53 PM
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good shootin' cowboy.
I'll bet that she ripped his back side for getting blood on her shirt
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:14 PM
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The husband succeeded 90% by staying preternaturally calm and 10% on his gun. People often miss at less than 5 feet.

A miracle the wife was not hit.
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Old 07-19-2018, 05:47 PM
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The proper solution to kidnappers, hostage holders, armed robbers, etc. is a dead perpetrator.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
The key word is "guaranteed".



One...no. I don't think so. Plenty of people have not only survived traumatic brain injuries, but walked away from the scene. If they can walk, then they're more than capable of still being a threat.

Two, how big is the human eye? Well, the average eye socket is about .95"x.95". For reference, an American quarter is also .955". Ain't that a thing. Now here's where it gets interestin'.

If you can hit a 1" circle on demand, then it stands to reason that you should also be able to shoot the gun out of your attacker's hand. But we all know that's a fantasy. So if you accept that you can't shoot the gun out of someone's hand, on demand, why would anyone think they could reliably make the eye-socket shot?

The other problem is consistently hitting a fixed point. Most people can't do that. Even fewer are the ones that can do it on-demand, under pressure, at an unknown distance. Most folks shoot off-center groups, fact of life. Shooting a group the size of the 10-ring doesn't count if it's six inches to the left.

Which is the other reason why I don't think head shots are the "guaranteed" stoppers they're made out to be. Are they effective? Sure. Have they won gunfights in situations where the shooter was deliberately aiming for them? Certainly, and I can cite them (including the ones where it took several head shots to achieve a stop).

But "more effective" and "useful" are a long way from "guaranteed".
Correct, sort of. No shot is guaranteed, but an adequate rd thru the eye socket is probably 99% one shot stop. Certainly a higher % than trying to shoot the gun out of soneobes hand??? Seriously, that is a bit too hollywierd right there. We are talking spitting distance, likely inside 12ft. A cool head, decent shot can put that rd into that 1" circle, every time, no specialized gun required. Btw, the eye socket is quite a bit biggr than a quarter, closer to 50c piece, but now we are just picking nits.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:42 PM
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What I'm suggesting is that the difficulty of the shot should be included in the effectiveness arithmetic. There are lots of places on the body that result in instant disability. The problem is that hitting them reliably is too difficult for humans to pull off.

In other words (and here I'm using numbers in the abstract, to illustrate the argument, hence the quotes...there's really no such thing as an "X%-effective hit), if a particular "hit" somehow did result in 100% incapacitation, but could only be attempted successfully 1 in 20 times, it's not 100% effective, it's only "5% effective". On the other hand, a hit that only achieved a stop 40% of the time, but could be made successfully one out of every two attempts, would be "20% effective".

Anyways, my customary blow-by blow.

Quote:
Correct, sort of. No shot is guaranteed, but an adequate rd thru the eye socket is probably 99% one shot stop. Certainly a higher % than trying to shoot the gun out of soneobes hand??? Seriously, that is a bit too hollywierd right there.
Which is precisely my point. Everybody more or less accepts that shooting guns out of people's hands is pure fantasy. And it's no more difficult than the eye shot. Which is why I wrote

"If you can hit a 1" circle on demand, then it stands to reason that you should also be able to shoot the gun out of your attacker's hand. But we all know that's a fantasy. So if you accept that you can't shoot the gun out of someone's hand, on demand, why would anyone think they could reliably make the eye-socket shot?"

I even underlined it.

Quote:
We are talking spitting distance, likely inside 12ft. A cool head, decent shot can put that rd into that 1" circle, every time, no specialized gun required.
One thing is that I really doubt it, but that's about all you can do. There are no solid statistics on DGUs.

Two is that we're not talking about hitting a nice black circle on a sunny day at the range. We're talking about hitting an ill-defined area that happens to be moving, and attached to a person that's trying to kill us.

Three is that the average shooter is incapable of hitting a 1" circle at even three yards, on paper, at the range. This is, in fact, a drill that's often suggested to students. It's mean to teach one to focus on their application of the fundamentals, by removing the ability to blame the gun, the sights, the ammo, etc. The only difference is that most folks normally suggest a 2.5-3" circle.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:47 PM
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South Houston is right up the road from where I am sitting. That should at least be two local criminals who rethink their career choice.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
His wife was outside at 4:30AM? Wonder if she was tailed from a late shift? Also, he shot the guy in the head and he is still alive?

Too scary; glad I left Houston in 1980.

OOPS, noticed this was posted at 4:30 AM; thought that was the posting of the news story
Not uncommon to survive a head shot if it is a graze, jaw shot, in an eye socket and out of the side of the face, cheek shot, etc.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
This is why I openly laugh in the faces of those that don't think accurized guns such as custom shop 1911s aren't superior to off-the-shelf guns for defense.

Sorry, when someone has your wife at gunpoint you'll want and need all the accuracy you can possible get. Every fraction of an inch counts in those situations, and frankly guns like the GLOCK may or may not have the needed accuracy.

I know my Nighthawk Custom will.
Too many other variables for a super accurate gun to matter.
Moving target(s), screaming, yelling, increased pulse rate, moving shooter, poor light, and general mayhem and confusion usually negate any accuracy advantage of one gun over another.
To say a Glock is not accurate enough, and only a high-end custom gun will do the job is just plain foolish. And stupid.
For 98% of the population, and most of law-enforcement, gilt-edged accuracy goes right out the window under conditions like the one above.
The shooter, not the gun, makes the difference.

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Old 07-20-2018, 12:22 AM
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Both breath and adrenalin control would be equal parts
in your accuracy in a high stress situation he was presented ..

He did have a slight advantage in that he heard them coming and least
was ready with his weapon unknow to the perp .. Who may well
have had intention of raping the woman once in the house and was
over occupied by those thoughts ..

I would like to know a little about his training history and how
many rounds lifetime he has shot !!

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Old 07-20-2018, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
While working for a Cuban women, her father raised hogs & dispatched them with a knife somewhere in the head/neck, NOT slitting it's throat, always wanted him to teach me that one. WHY I have no idea.
That is what we call pithing, they make special spikes for that purpose.
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Old 07-20-2018, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Certainly, but if you can NOT do it at the range, you will not rise to the occasion under extreme stress.
I guess you have ESP. Why is it you hear of people with little to no gun experience making good shots when called upon to do so? NOT SAYING practice is bad, You can't have too much IMO. It's just that on any given event an exp shooter may miss or freeze, & a novice/no exp makes the shot. Stuff happens.

Last edited by nachogrande; 07-20-2018 at 04:31 AM.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozark Marine View Post
If it were my wife in that situation, forget about the tricked out 1911,
I'm grabbing my Mossberg Shockwave 12ga.
Unless the shooter is very well acquainted with the rate of spreading at all ranges through lots of actual shooting and patterning, the shotgun would be a poor choice in almost any kind of hostage situation, if one had the luxury of having a choice

Something firing a single projectile( preferrably a rifle ) would be better.
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