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Old 07-28-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Old Arkansawyer View Post
Considering that most self defense shootings happen at a short distance, does anyone but me practice point shooting? I see lots of targets posted shot at X yards with all in the 10 ring and I do see some benefit for shooting fixed targets, but probably not happening in the world for self defense. I try to point shoot everything from milk cartons to home made cardboard figures. It helps that I live in the country with no close neighbors. Just wondering.
I think it's a great idea and commend you for it! I have been in a couple of real gun fights and point and shoot is the only way out.

In a real gun fight , not an internet fantasized one, the fight will only last only seconds and on average only 3 rounds will be fired. Forget about those useless and over priced night sights because you are never going to see them. Forget about that special two hand grip you will be damn lucky to get one hand on your gun and get it out of your holster and if your using a ankle holster you a dead duck where you stand.

My system of teaching "Point and Shoot" was spot an object, I used one gallon plastic jugs filled with water, then close your eyes and draw and fire. You will be surprised how good you get after a few weeks of doing it. Guns are tools to kill with and not toys to be fantasized about on internet forums!
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:30 AM
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I think it's a great idea and commend you for it! I have been in a couple of real gun fights and point and shoot is the only way out.

In a real gun fight , not an internet fantasized one, the fight will only last only seconds and on average only 3 rounds will be fired. Forget about those useless and over priced night sights because you are never going to see them. Forget about that special two hand grip you will be damn lucky to get one hand on your gun and get it out of your holster and if your using a ankle holster you a dead duck where you stand.

My system of teaching "Point and Shoot" was spot an object, I used one gallon plastic jugs filled with water, then close your eyes and draw and fire. You will be surprised how good you get after a few weeks of doing it. Guns are tools to kill with and not toys to be fantasized about on internet forums!
What department were you with when you were involved in these gunfights?

You're a teacher?

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Old 07-28-2018, 10:28 AM
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What department were you with when you were involved in these gunfights?

You're a teaching?



Do you mean "Was I a Teacher"?????
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:34 AM
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Practice

Practice

Practice

Practice it all

Practice everything

draws, up close, distant, transitions, reloads, shooting on the move.

Go shoot some USPSA/IPSC and Steel challenge matches

Build up muscle memory

get a Dillon XL650 and make 1000 round batches
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:14 AM
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I think it's a great idea and commend you for it! I have been in a couple of real gun fights and point and shoot is the only way out.

In a real gun fight , not an internet fantasized one, the fight will only last only seconds and on average only 3 rounds will be fired. Forget about those useless and over priced night sights because you are never going to see them. Forget about that special two hand grip you will be damn lucky to get one hand on your gun and get it out of your holster and if your using a ankle holster you a dead duck where you stand.

My system of teaching "Point and Shoot" was spot an object, I used one gallon plastic jugs filled with water, then close your eyes and draw and fire. You will be surprised how good you get after a few weeks of doing it. Guns are tools to kill with and not toys to be fantasized about on internet forums!
I'll clean it up for you. Guns are tools to defend yourself with. Whether the bad guy lives or dies is immaterial in most instances.
Yes at very close distance, hip point shooting is just good index, draw & press. The issue is when distance goes a bit further than contact & everything is moving. No body index, you better get at least the muzzke into your vision & index that. Someone mentioned shooting a pizza box. That is a huge area & peripheral hits means your fight isnt likely over. You need to be able to hit an 8-10" zone on your given target.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:32 AM
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I'll clean it up for you. Guns are tools to defend yourself with. Whether the bad guy lives or dies is immaterial in most instances.
Yes at very close distance, hip point shooting is just good index, draw & press. The issue is when distance goes a bit further than contact & everything is moving. No body index, you better get at least the muzzke into your vision & index that. Someone mentioned shooting a pizza box. That is a huge area & peripheral hits means your fight isnt likely over. You need to be able to hit an 8-10" zone on your given target.
Well I find myself in disagreement with you. Guns are to hurt, injure, maim and cause death in a quick timely manner by Exsanguination! That is the process of blood loss, to a degree sufficient to cause death. One does not have to lose all of one's blood to cause death. Depending upon the age, health, and fitness level of the individual, people can die from losing half or two-thirds of their blood; a loss of roughly one-third of the blood volume is considered very serious.

They may also cause instant death by shutting down the central nervous system such as a massive brain trauma by a foreign object passing into it at a rapid speed.

GOD made man however, Samuel Colt made all men equal!
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Old 07-28-2018, 12:11 PM
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Excellent discussion. In an earlier post I mentioned it being part of LEO training in the 1970's. We carried Model 10s. We were taught to watch where the first shot impacted and adjust aim as needed by rotating the wrist up or down s!ightly. Point shooting was part of the double action qualification course. I believe it was 6 rounds in groups in 2 (draw and fire) on the command.
Dr Bob Rotella a sports psychologist as written numerous books on golf and worked with pro golfers. He regularly refers to the ",mind-body" connection of focus on the smallest target possible and your body will adjust by hitting to it. The same as throwing a baseball to someone holding a catchers mitt. It works in golf. Don't over think the mechanics.

When I attended the NPS-LE Academy back in 1986, point shooting was still being taught, but maybe not to the same extent. It was implied that we should all learn and practice point shooting, but on our own and at a later date... Needless to say, most did not bother.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:22 PM
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I've been watching this & other similar old training videos and I find them very interesting.

Fast forward to 4:33 for the old school way of point shooting.

YouTube
I love that video, mostly for the pearl-clutching and twitterpation it causes.

There were still a few of these old boys around when I joined the Bureau in 1991. Four inch M&Ps with Pachmayr grip adapters in open-top holsters with the triggers exposed was their set up. Some had embraced speed loaders, but most wore the 2x2x2 pouch, strong side, in front of the holster, behind the badge.

The deep crouch was out of the revolver qual course by then, but a couple of the guys would delight in showing it to us young pups at the range. Those boys could shoot.

The open trigger guard holster was because the training was to begin your trigger pull as soon as you got a grip on the gun. The mere thought of that is enough to cause an outbreak of the vapors in a class today.

I miss those guys. They had some great stories.
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Old 07-28-2018, 02:16 PM
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Point shooting is when your eyes and the firearm’s sighting system are not used together.... or so I’m told???

From the hip, from the ground etc etc..... it’s all about pointing the muzzle on the target.... no matter what unfolds........ like on the guy who jumped up from the floor with a box cutter in his hand while stocking lower shelves in a market..... would have left a big hole in my pocket.

Point shooting
Pocket carry
Dedicated clothing, patches and sewing kit required.
And I sold my 357LCR to a buddy ......... but.....with another $200 I ran to my LGS and bought a minty ‘71 Colt DS.
I’ll trim the hammer on my M460 Carry.

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Old 07-28-2018, 02:20 PM
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USPSA GM level shooters are something to behold

takes a lot of dedication to get there

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Old 07-28-2018, 05:26 PM
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I love that video, mostly for the pearl-clutching and twitterpation it causes.

There were still a few of these old boys around when I joined the Bureau in 1991. Four inch M&Ps with Pachmayr grip adapters in open-top holsters with the triggers exposed was their set up. Some had embraced speed loaders, but most wore the 2x2x2 pouch, strong side, in front of the holster, behind the badge.

The deep crouch was out of the revolver qual course by then, but a couple of the guys would delight in showing it to us young pups at the range. Those boys could shoot.

The open trigger guard holster was because the training was to begin your trigger pull as soon as you got a grip on the gun. The mere thought of that is enough to cause an outbreak of the vapors in a class today.

I miss those guys. They had some great stories.
Well it's because today they all use striker fired semi auto pistols. It's nearly impossible to "stack" the trigger while on the drawl. So these newer semi auto's require a different type of training. With a revolver you can do that because the mechanics involved are different. I ran into a few old timers that would tell me that their finger was on the trigger while on the drawl, partially pulling the trigger as the pistol is brought on target, then split second pause right before the break, then firing the gun. This took a lot of practice. But this was basically how revolvers were designed to be used. As defensive weapons. Nowadays, our doctrine is the pistol is used in offensive tactical situations and not just merely defensive uses. Two totally different ways of thinking that require totally different ways of training.

For us legally armed civilians IMHO, that the old style of training, as seen in the old FBI video I believe to be very effect today for those carrying revolvers. In addition, practice firing from retention is also very good practice.
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Old 07-28-2018, 05:50 PM
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Love it when people post about how real gunfights are only one way or another. HOW do You know how a gun fight will go down? If I pull up the last 50 reports they are all completely different circumstances. WHERE do you get that ideal from.
Let's see, first one is a attempted car jacking
2nd is home invasion
3rd is home invasion
4th retail store hold up
5th domestic violence
So on and so on
You are full of malarkey if you think you know how someone is going to attack you.
And do you think the kids in the high school shootings felt that it was realistic to train for what you call fantasyland scenario?
What about the couple hundred injured people from all the wackos last year plowing through the crowds with trucks and uhual? ARE YOU SAYING THAT NONE OF THAT HAPPENED? IT WAS FANTASY?
First one I shot come running down the street with an axe in his hand. Second busted into my house and was still 12 feet away. So were does that figure into the odds?

How about training to know your surroundings? Tell me how they going to get within 2ft of you before you recognize the threat.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:47 PM
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First one I shot come running down the street with an axe in his hand. Second busted into my house and was still 12 feet away. So were does that figure into the odds?
Definitely very slim odds of that occurring.

Are you a retired cop?
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:54 PM
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...Tell me how they going to get within 2ft of you before you recognize the threat.
well...you can have your situational awareness turned up full

and sierra still happens

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Old 07-28-2018, 06:55 PM
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I wish there was a place close by, convenient and inexpensive to practice real world defensive shooting. I don't care for standing still firing at still targets a set distance away with all the time in the world. It's all I have available to me now but it's far from ideal.
I'm going to end up buying my own land and setting up a personal range the way I want it.
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Old 07-28-2018, 06:59 PM
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The axe ordeal was in my early years and I was at a girls house I had met recently. A jealous ex boyfriend of hers who already had a restraining order in place, showed up in the middle of the night and started busting all the windows out on my truck. I woke up and went outside to see what was up and he came at me with the axe, gave him one warning shot and he keep coming yelling shoot me mf, shoot me mf. So I light him up. Cops didn't even take my gun.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:01 PM
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And good photo above. Got me there.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:10 PM
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Like I said, . . . .practice everything.

strong hand
weak hand
close shooting from retention
shooting to 50yrds and beyond

Most guys go out and shoot what they are good at.

years ago, I took a class from a national USPSA and 3 gun champion...recommend practicing what you're NOT good at.

I didn't shoot weak hand well...so I practiced and figured it out.

next months USPSA match had a weak hand stage.
heard so much grumbling
....none from me, I was ready
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:10 PM
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I haven't practiced point shooting for a long time, like 5 plus years. I do remember the last time I did at a free outdoor public range that after 6 or so cylinders out of my 640 centennial, half of the guys there were standing behind me watching. One of them asked what was I doing?

I told him gun fighting drills. I want to be a good gun fighter, not a good shooter. I couldn't care less if I don't hit the 2" bulls-eye, as long as the hits are in the 8" ring. Good 'nuff.

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Old 07-28-2018, 07:51 PM
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Kind of OT but I have to brag.
About 20 years ago I had the good fortune to be in the same squad with Dick Heinie at an IPSIC match near Havana, IL. He was amazing. IIRC one stage had us draw and shoot 6 shots in 5 seconds with a mandatory reload during the 6 shot string - and keep the hits on a man size target. He did it. I remember he shot a 10mm and he had a bag full of loaded mags, enough to get him through the match without filling mags.
Don't remember if he picked up his brass.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:35 PM
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Well it's because today they all use striker fired semi auto pistols. It's nearly impossible to "stack" the trigger while on the drawl. So these newer semi auto's require a different type of training. With a revolver you can do that because the mechanics involved are different. I ran into a few old timers that would tell me that their finger was on the trigger while on the drawl, partially pulling the trigger as the pistol is brought on target, then split second pause right before the break, then firing the gun. This took a lot of practice. But this was basically how revolvers were designed to be used. As defensive weapons.
Ain’t that the truth. One of the Bu’s initial reasons for not allowing the Glock as a personally owned approved weapon was that it was “incompatible with current training techniques”. As in - getting a jump on your trigger pull.

A few short years later we adopted the Glock, and changed the training.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:30 PM
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Well I find myself in disagreement with you. Guns are to hurt, injure, maim and cause death in a quick timely manner by Exsanguination! That is the process of blood loss, to a degree sufficient to cause death. One does not have to lose all of one's blood to cause death. Depending upon the age, health, and fitness level of the individual, people can die from losing half or two-thirds of their blood; a loss of roughly one-third of the blood volume is considered very serious.

They may also cause instant death by shutting down the central nervous system such as a massive brain trauma by a foreign object passing into it at a rapid speed.

GOD made man however, Samuel Colt made all men equal!
Yes we disagree. I have more than a few guns, none have killed a person. A few have killed animals. This is true for the vast number of gun owners. I dont ccw to kill anyone.
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Old 07-28-2018, 10:35 PM
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Like I said, . . . .practice everything.

strong hand
weak hand
close shooting from retention
shooting to 50yrds and beyond

Most guys go out and shoot what they are good at.

years ago, I took a class from a national USPSA and 3 gun champion...recommend practicing what you're NOT good at.

I didn't shoot weak hand well...so I practiced and figured it out.

next months USPSA match had a weak hand stage.
heard so much grumbling
....none from me, I was ready
100%. It is what I tell my new shooters; dont spend a lot of time practicing what you already do well. Then again, many never practice much at all.
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Old 07-28-2018, 11:59 PM
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Yes we disagree. I have more than a few guns, none have killed a person. A few have killed animals. This is true for the vast number of gun owners. I dont ccw to kill anyone.
When you draw a gun in self defense you shoot to kill period!!!! That is what every cop is taught and every member of our military are taught. The purpose of the gun on any cop and any member of our military is to kill with. When you pull that trigger you are shooting to kill. That is why Police and Military are issued lethal weapons and not sling shots.

When I pull my weapon, it is to kill!! That was my training in the military and law enforcement as well. Deadly Force is just that, DEADLY FORCE.
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Old 07-29-2018, 12:38 AM
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When you draw a gun in self defense you shoot to kill period!!!! That is what every cop is taught and every member of our military are taught. The purpose of the gun on any cop and any member of our military is to kill with. When you pull that trigger you are shooting to kill. That is why Police and Military are issued lethal weapons and not sling shots.

When I pull my weapon, it is to kill!! That was my training in the military and law enforcement as well. Deadly Force is just that, DEADLY FORCE.
Interesting. Never heard a cop say that on an open forum. You’re the first.
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Old 07-29-2018, 12:48 AM
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Interesting. Never heard a cop say that on an open forum. You’re the first.
Come to think of it, I don't believe I have either.
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:20 AM
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We’ve drifted off here a bit. Back to the original topic.

I was taught to point shoot in the military over 30 years ago. Still practice it today. I believe that anyone that relies on a gun for self defense should make it part of their practice regimen.
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:37 AM
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Interesting. Never heard a cop say that on an open forum. You’re the first.
Either have I on a gun forum .. The deputy who taught
the Conceal Carry Class I took emphasized only "Shooting till the threat to your life stops!"
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Old 07-29-2018, 11:23 AM
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When you draw a gun in self defense you shoot to kill period!!!! That is what every cop is taught and every member of our military are taught. The purpose of the gun on any cop and any member of our military is to kill with. When you pull that trigger you are shooting to kill. That is why Police and Military are issued lethal weapons and not sling shots.

When I pull my weapon, it is to kill!! That was my training in the military and law enforcement as well. Deadly Force is just that, DEADLY FORCE.

I wonder if you realize that this forum is public? And if god forbid you get involved in a self defense shooting that a crafty prosecutor see's this post that they're not going to go out of their way to prove that you INTENDED to kill?

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Old 07-29-2018, 11:30 AM
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When I pull my weapon, it is to kill!! That was my training in the military and law enforcement as well. Deadly Force is just that, DEADLY FORCE.
At best that statement will be used against you in any follow on Civil suit.
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Old 07-29-2018, 12:38 PM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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Never, never, ever say I shot to kill. There is only one good reason to
shoot. If you believe your life or another's life is threatened, you shoot
to STOP the threat. And keep shooting until the threat has stopped.

The threat can be by action or by words. Beyond that the agressor
must have the ability, and the opportunity. If those three criteria are
present you are probably justified in taking the action that you believe
is necessary.

I kinda wonder what military or law enforcement agency teaches that
when you pull your weapon, it is to kill?
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:08 PM
Louchia Louchia is offline
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Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
Never, never, ever say I shot to kill. There is only one good reason to
shoot. If you believe your life or another's life is threatened, you shoot
to STOP the threat. And keep shooting until the threat has stopped.

The threat can be by action or by words. Beyond that the agressor
must have the ability, and the opportunity. If those three criteria are
present you are probably justified in taking the action that you believe
is necessary.

I kinda wonder what military or law enforcement agency teaches that
when you pull your weapon, it is to kill?
Shoot until the threat is stopped along with the teaching of shooting at center mas, strongly implies shoot to kill.
Shooting two to the body and one to the head is common teaching.
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Old 07-29-2018, 01:51 PM
riverrat38 riverrat38 is offline
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[I kinda wonder what military or law enforcement agency teaches that
when you pull your weapon, it is to kill?]

When I was in basic training, 54 years ago, at Ft. Ord, the Bayonet Assault Course instructor would yell, "What is the sprit of the Bayonet?" We were required to yell back, in unison, "To Kill". Maybe things have changed in a half Century.

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Old 07-29-2018, 01:57 PM
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Shoot until the threat is stopped along with the teaching of shooting at center mas, strongly implies shoot to kill.
Shooting two to the body and one to the head is common teaching.

Maybe so .......but it goes to intent.................

One may act to stop a threat of serious bodily injury or death to himself (or others) .... to stop a threat to (him or) herself may required that person to use a level of force(weapon)...........that could/may result in serious bodily injury or death to his/her attacker.

Not: I felt threatened so I decided I need to "kill" the ..............."well you know!"


In my limited experience ( 40 years) "two to the body one to the head" is more like "fire two rounds to the center of mass; if the threat continues your assailant may be wearing body armor and you may need to try for a head (or pelvic girdle) shot to stop the threat."

Only in the movies like "John Wick" do you fire two to the body followed by one to the head as "insurance" as you move by the prone and "maybe" lifeless body......

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Old 07-29-2018, 02:03 PM
16thVACav 16thVACav is offline
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Maybe I'm just a little suspicious (OK - I'm a lot suspicious), but does anyone else look at some of the more outlandish statements made on here, note that the posters have just joined the forum, and wonder if they are actually who they say they are? Their use of the English language is pretty decent, but there is just something "off" about their posts.
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Old 07-29-2018, 02:10 PM
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Maybe I'm just a little suspicious (OK - I'm a lot suspicious), but does anyone else look at some of the more outlandish statements made on here, note that the posters have just joined the forum, and wonder if they are actually who they say they are? Their use of the English language is pretty decent, but there is just something "off" about their posts.
Now that you mention it................. he appears to be a "not so Old RetiredCop".......June 2018...... "Ringo Kid" is that you?????

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Old 07-29-2018, 03:00 PM
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When you draw a gun in self defense you shoot to kill period!!!! That is what every cop is taught and every member of our military are taught. The purpose of the gun on any cop and any member of our military is to kill with. When you pull that trigger you are shooting to kill. That is why Police and Military are issued lethal weapons and not sling shots.

When I pull my weapon, it is to kill!! That was my training in the military and law enforcement as well. Deadly Force is just that, DEADLY FORCE.
Now I am questioning your retire cop status. I am LE trained, never once in the training was shoot to kill stated. It was always shoot to stop the threat. Totally diff than military. So were you also trained, as leo, to ignore the attackers wounds, cuff him & let him die? Were you taught to deliver a coudegrace to the head once your attacker was down? I think not. No, when my gun comes out, I am trying to stop the threat. Guy dies or lives, dont care as long as he stops what he is doing.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
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Shoot until the threat is stopped along with the teaching of shooting at center mas, strongly implies shoot to kill.
Shooting two to the body and one to the head is common teaching.
Intent. Implication aside shoot until the threat stops is just that. Shoot to kill implies malice & a deliberate head shot or multiple body shots on a down target. 2+1 is a stop tactic, body armor, hyped up on drugs, viable tactic. No where in any training have I hade is the word kill used, but possibly in the military, which again, totally diff mission statement. All head shots may even be a viable stopping tactic if the threat is wearing a bomb vest. Again, live or die, not my concern, as long as the threat is eliminated.
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:37 PM
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Now I am questioning your retired cop status.
I imagine a lot of folks questioned that from the first post of his they read.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louchia View Post
Shoot until the threat is stopped along with the teaching of shooting at center mas, strongly implies shoot to kill.
Shooting two to the body and one to the head is common teaching.


Shoot to stop. If the threat stops on the first shot or second shot, you stop shooting. You don’t lower your guard, but you stop shooting.

Our qualification includes three to the body, one to the head from five yards. The scenario is that the threat doesn’t go down from the first three due to body armor or drugs, so the head shot is the “stop” shot. It also includes three rounds from one yard from a close retention firing position (speed rock without the extreme lean).

“Deadly force” is the acknowledgment that shooting to stop may result in an unsurvivable wound to your target.


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Old 07-29-2018, 07:43 PM
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I wish there was a place close by, convenient and inexpensive to practice real world defensive shooting. I don't care for standing still firing at still targets a set distance away with all the time in the world. It's all I have available to me now but it's far from ideal.
I'm going to end up buying my own land and setting up a personal range the way I want it.
That's all most of us have available unless we're willing to spend a small fortune to attend training classes.


I like your idea of setting up your own range.
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:53 PM
Retired Cop Retired Cop is offline
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Interesting. Never heard a cop say that on an open forum. You’re the first.
When a cop draws a gun it is to shoot to kill! That is standard operating procedure and taught in every police academy! Police are permitted to use one level of force above of what is being demonstrating against him or her! There is no secret to that open forum or not!
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:02 PM
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Now I am questioning your retire cop status. I am LE trained, never once in the training was shoot to kill stated. It was always shoot to stop the threat. Totally diff than military. So were you also trained, as leo, to ignore the attackers wounds, cuff him & let him die? Were you taught to deliver a coudegrace to the head once your attacker was down? I think not. No, when my gun comes out, I am trying to stop the threat. Guy dies or lives, dont care as long as he stops what he is doing.

Agreed. Neither I nor any LE trained personnel I know were trained to "shoot to kill". It was always - "shoot until the stimulus tell us to stop"... i.e. the threat has ended.

Granted, death may be the result of that action...but it is NOT the intended purpose.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:22 PM
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I know nothing of police work but I wish one of the forum's heavy-lifting LEOs would address this "shoot to kill" stuff.

Personally, I think advocating killing someone on an open, heavily trafficked gun forum is reckless.
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Old 07-29-2018, 08:41 PM
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I imagine a lot of folks questioned that from the first post of his they read.
WuzzFuzz, XFuzz and Retired Cop user names were already taken. Old Cop. ok...Until proven different by Pawngal.


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Old 07-29-2018, 08:46 PM
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When a cop draws a gun it is to shoot to kill! That is standard operating procedure and taught in every police academy! Police are permitted to use one level of force above of what is being demonstrating against him or her! There is no secret to that open forum or not!
.

Nobody can possibly that be foolish on an open forum. Or a closed forum for that matter. You have successfully derailed this thread. And trolling is not welcome here. Go away before you embarrass yourself further.
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Old 07-29-2018, 09:04 PM
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Go to this website to help better understand use of force by law enforcement officers. Retired now but basically the same as when I went through LEO Basic in 1976.

The Use-of-Force Continuum | National Institute of Justice
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Old 07-29-2018, 09:16 PM
WuzzFuzz WuzzFuzz is offline
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I know nothing of police work but I wish one of the forum's heavy-lifting LEOs would address this "shoot to kill" stuff.

Personally, I think advocating killing someone on an open, heavily trafficked gun forum is reckless.
Ok Rusty, I'll jump in here.

When I was active, at the range it was "THREAT" Three shots....

At my LEOSA yearly training it is still "THREAT" three shots...No matter if it's a six shooter revolver, or a 15 semi shot auto.

At no time did the instructor back then or now, yell "KILL".

At no time were we ever taught to shoot head shots..Not then, not now.

It's always been...stop the threat...PERIOD


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Old 07-29-2018, 09:28 PM
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Let me interject this too...What Old Cop's opinion is is his..He can adhere to anything he wishes too...It's just not the opinion of MOST anyone else, LEO or not.

If one says they drive while drunk, then that's them, just give that person a wide birth when on the road.

As I see it...its just a matter of credibility being established.


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Old 07-29-2018, 09:38 PM
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nice discussion here. I also practice hip and extended arm point shooting with both strong and weak hands out to 7 or so yards. I also practice extended arm 2 hand grip without the aid of sights and have managed to put 6 rounds from my mdl 19-8 4" gun in 1.82 - 1.84 seconds, with the EDC 19-4 snub the time extends to 1.91 - 2.0 seconds with all rounds in center mass. I also train the 3 shot string of 2 center mass and 1 head and have got it down to under 2 seconds with both revolvers. For some reason I have slower times with my Glock 17...… go figure. Now I am trying to get similar times with my 640 ND .38.... it is a bit tougher.
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