One good training class is well worth the $$$. Then. You can practice what you have learned. Why I belong to a private club, I can shoot what & how I like. Idpa competitions are also a very good practice routine. Guns & gear you would carry, shoot from concealement using various forms of cover, pdiff positions, while moving, sometimes both you & the target moving.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

This is a 100% false statement. Someone should ban you for your BS. Retired leo my azzz.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

That would be fine if he stated it was his ridiculous opinion. No, he claims "all le academies teach this. That is not opinion but BS.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

What do you base your opinion upon? Are you or were you ever a police academy student or instructor?

While not defending the poster's statements, there is a reason we call the use of a firearm "deadly force."

Let's not play semantic games. It is fairly obvious that the poster is "dumbing down" his explanations for you.

Also, don't comment on the use of force continuum unless you understand and can define it. I don't know where you're from, but around here, police can use superior force to overcome a resister.

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Tony

This thread has gotten way off topic

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

Yes it has.

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Keep on Chooglin'

See "Retired Cop" post (#36 in) the "Why are 9mm pistols more reliable" thread......... Troll????

With this thread I can out run that little machine. Larry

Yes I am post cert trained. No the poster is not dumbing down anything, just posting false statements. All LE academies do NOT say/teach "shoot to kill". HE or you may think it is semantics to say shoot to stop or shoot to kill, but I assure you in court it is NOT. Intent. If your intent is to kill, you will have a serious problem with your very first defensive shooting in a court of law.
Superior force, yes to a point. No where is LEO allowed to shoot someone just for physically resisting arrest or disobeying a command. Deadly force has to be used in response to deadly force. That is what is taught in police academies. Guy puts up fist you don't get to shoot him, though some LEO do get away with such things.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

RE-LEARNING to shoot lefty then back to my original righty. For a time, I had to work the trigger with my middle finger, braces on each hand/wrist & have the index finger along the side of the firearm pointing towards the target. I have heard of people point shooting this way, ON PURPOSE. It may or may not be something you are willing to try???

I make it a habit to point the gun at everything I intend to shoot.

Okay, back to topic!

I'm thankful that my shooting range allows any type of fire. It's at the end of a logging road, about 40 minutes away. Well worth the drive. In 12 years shooting there, I can count on 2 hands the number of other shooters I've encountered at "my" spot.

I set up my target stands, which consist of big cardboard boxes (we have a home business that uses them) taped shut, and stack them neatly in front of a small hill. My targets for point shooting are plain computer paper, I figure that is about the size of the stopping (not kill) zone, and I place them chest-high. I usually shoot at about 3-5 yards, and I generally hit the paper.

One of the handguns I practice with is a Model 39-2. I like to practice drawing, fire one shot DA, then the next SA. I found it to be kinda tricky at first, but I'm much better at it now.

In my earlier post, I stated I practice point shooting every time I go shooting. After I posted that, it occurred to me that I have gone shooting and skipped my point shooting exercise a couple of times, so I will need to clarify, ALMOST every time I go shooting.

The photo is "my" shooting range. (Yes, there is a hill behind it!) The only down-side is that I can only get about 80 yards of distance, so when shooting my longer range firearms, I need to go elsewhere.

Attached Images

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Absolutely. Back when I was in the army I used to do a lot of urban combat stuff. I noticed that the closer the "enemy" got the less likely I was to use the sights. I decided point shooting was a good idea.

People assume point shooting and aimed fire are mutually exclusive terms and they're really not. If I get my grip and presentation right the sights should only be a witness. Point shooting obliges me to do that.

Often times, when I am home alone, using an unloaded pistol, I will hurriedly pick out an object at the edge of my peripheral vision. I will quickly point the pistol at the object and then shift my focus towards it.

I have done this for decades and am rarely off target.

As I've said before, for years my daily pocket carry is an LCP with barely discernible sights. I am quite at home point shooting.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Actually the military philosophy is not to kill but to wound. Every wounded soldier on the battlefield ties up three more in removing the wounded and treating the wounds. That’s four less enemies that you are facing for one shot.

Well, that’s what I was told once by a former military officer.

Not what I was taught and am still taught.

Not what the Aussie and British cops (I work with a lot of ex UK cops who were firearms qualified) were taught.

Not what the US cops I know and have known through the years were taught.

Pretty sure in boot camp the theme is kill the enemy. Wounding is fine but killing means they are out of the fight never to return.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Don’t know about boot camp (Marines), but when I was in Basic Training (Army) at the very end of Vietnam, the idea that wounding takes four out of the fight was brought up. Not as a goal, just a fact.

In basic marksmanship training, I don’t recall the cadre ever talking about either killing or wounding. Just hit the damn silhouette and knock it down. I always thought it was amazing that in a couple weeks they could teach you to reliably hit man-sized silhouettes at 400 meters using iron sights with an M-16.

In bayonet/pugel training we probably screamed something about closing with and killing the enemy. Been a long time.

That was at Fort Polk. Maybe the other Basic Training locations did things differently.

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Vegan by proxy.

I was an Air Force Security Policman guarding nuclear weapons, they taught us to aim for center mass and shoot twice with an M-16 but the intent was to wound not kill. Figure that one out.

You are being very rude! Just because you don't know what I know does not make it BS as you imply!

I also have 3 active duty relatives on 3 different departments all over the country. Please refrain from your animosity and derogatory remarks.

This just happened in the last few days:

Minneapolis police release footage of fatal shooting of armed man; officers won't face charges | Fox News

When you shoot as a cop, you shoot to kill as demonstrated. The bad guy did in fact die......That's how it works in today's war on cops that is going on right now.

Right, just like I said.


Neither he nor I said that, now you are being as obtuse as he is.

If you really understood the use of force continuum, you would understand the escalation of force - ie if suspect is non compliant - first you use verbal commands, then soft hands, next take downs. He she raises hands to you, you can use impact or aerosol/taser, etc.

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Tony

Try that on a pilled up or drug hopped up suspect. Let me know how it works out for you okay????

As depicted in the video the officer made no physical contact with the suspect at anytime what so ever. He shot to kill him for lack of compliance of verbal commands. Police work is very dirty, filthy, and dangerous work. This country is in a silent, slow motion civil war. The war on cops is more than apparent!

Permit me to reiterate, the first point and click device was made by Samuel Colt, vastly improved by Gaston Glock and now S&W is offering some dandy modern guns. 1911 stopped in 1912 and was junked in the 1940's.

Now back to the subject at hand, You can practice point and shoot defensive methods in the comfort of your own home with the simple method I taught to new recruits.

Lesson One:
First make sure your firearm is unloaded. Triple check it! Now holster your unloaded weapon. Pick out some object as a target. It can be a picture on the wall, a lamp a light switch etc.

Now you are looking at the object of choice, close your eyes, draw you weapon and dry fire. with a snap cap under the firing pin of course, as you open your eyes!

When you can open your eyes and look down your sights and see some thing as small as a wall switch, you are getting there.

Lesson Two:

Take your over priced I-Phone and set the alarm timer for 20 seconds. Set the phone up against a lamp or some other object to hold it up. Stand 10 feet away from the phone and close your eyes and turn is a circle. When the alarm on the phone goes off draw and point you weapon to where you heard the alarm sound from and squeeze the trigger as you open your eyes to see how far you are off! This one will take time to master but could save your bacon if you master it.

Us old cops carried Model 36 2 inch revolvers for detectives and Model 15 and then 19 Combat Masterpieces if you were in the bag. Usually it was a 4 in Model 10 as a duty weapon and night sights were not even invented yet! We had to learn this method. We were also issued those yellow Brite Star, 2 "D" cell plastic flashlights, they never worked either. Forget about using them as an impact weapon. The bad guys got the barrel of that model 10 across the nose when the got frisky!

I do understand that, why I call bs on any dept teaching or even stating that you shoot to kill. Retired cop is Out to lunch, prior service or not. A shoot to kill policy would set every agency & leo up for massive lawsuits. There are enough active leo here to confirm that. Rude, no, just calling bs when I see it.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Perhaps you should introduce yourself to the forum and detail your background, location and history in law enforcement. Maybe then your posts would be a little more accepted than as just your opinion.

Firstly, I have read the story and watched the video you refer to. The complaint was “man firing a gun in the air”. When the responding officers got there it appears one saw the gun in the suspects hands.

That straight away escalates the situation to one of a “deadly force” component. The only appropriate response is one of preparing to use a similar level of force. After voice compliance empty hand techniques, O/C Spray, impact weapons, taser, all have been surpassed as a response unless that is the only responce you have available, before the initial contact.

Secondly, the suspect had reportedly fired his gun, he was fleeing into who knows what type of situation. Innocent civilians were at risk. Then he turned towards the officers putting them at risk too. That is why he was shot, not because he didn’t comply with voice requests. Read the story, particularly where it says:

“Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman announced Monday in a press release that charges will not be filed against officers Justin Schmidt and Ryan Kelly in the June 23 shooting, saying 31-year-old Thurman Blevins was a danger to them and the community.

“When Mr. Blevins fled from the officers with a loaded handgun, refused to follow their commands for him to stop and show his hands and then took the gun out of his pocket and turned toward the officers, Mr. Blevins represented a danger to the lives of Officer Schmidt and Officer Kelly, “ Freeman said in a statement.”.

Thirdly, using selective parts of a story to “prove” a point is a tactic employed usually by those of a particular persuasion. And no Police Officer I have ever encountered will do that. They look at the entirity of a situation before making a judgement. Even in the few seconds that a deadly force encounter takes Police are trained to respond proportionately.

Yes, there is a war on Police as the 2016 and other shootings of police officers demonstrated. And as the almost automatic “He was (insert your racial or social profile here) therefore the police murdered him and should be punished” brigade show us.

But the only country where it is “authorised” to shoot suspected offenders to “kill” them is the Phillipines. Everywhere else force used or intended to be used by police must be proportional to the force being faced, and the responsive force intent must only be to stop an offenders actions. So unless the Phillienes is where you live and served, your lone voice has the echoes of cloven hooves on a bridge in it.

Kiwi cop; civilly and rationally presented. Well done, mate.

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

I am not defending that poster, and I'm not inclined to do so. I have met many like him.

Historically, in the early 1970's I can tell you the application of physical force was presented much differently that it is today. Firearms weren't emphasized as prominently as they came to be in later years (ie we did PPC starting at 60 yards, single and double action, strong and weak hand. We never saw a silhouette target until years later).

Liability, law suits and public perception were not on the radar yet. No one said "shoot to stop" it was understood that if you actually got to the point of using your revolver, then TSHTF, and serious injury or death of your actor was imminent.

You can believe it or not, but while the BLA was conducting their attacks on cops across the country, police training was far behind the curve, and many a rookie took credence from the FTO who said, forget all that **** they told you in the academy, I'll show you how we really do it.

I don't doubt that our errant poster hales back to those days or even earlier, and while he is an embarrassment, he most likely is who he says he is.

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Tony

Back to our regularly scheduled programming!

I tried point shooting for the first time in 5 yrs. today. Started at 7 yds. with my 640 Centennial loaded with full house .357 mag.

Hit rate was a dismal 10%. 30 rds. shot and only 3 holes on the target.The last time I point shot I was 50 for 50 at that distance,(which is why I haven't done this in so long, it was easy...then) using B-27 Q targets (half-size man silhouette) Moved up to 5 yds. and 30 more rds. and hit rate jumped to a tick under 50%. Not even close to acceptable.

Moved up to 3 yds. and was better than 90%. Still needs work!!

I was drawing from my pocket and on the timer. Hands at the side, as if I were walking naturally. Draws were in the 1.70- 2.0 second range. I could empty the gun in 1.8 secs. or less on .35-.40 splits @ 3 yds.

I will work this into my training from now on. Was a real eye opener.

purple bikerr

I like to use a laser-cartridge for point shooting. Mostly dryer. It works great in the house with point or snap shooting at pictures, statues or other items on the wall. When the weather here is less than 114- 90 outside, in the dark or semi-dark, posting small paper plates at various locations around the yard. Just be extra careful you have inserted a laser-cartridge in the chamber not a live round. Also out of sight from nosy neighbors. You can even practice your concealed draw and fire. I've been using the laser-cartridge for about 3 years, same battery.

Dang, I never read this thread until tonight! I would have been yelling Troll Alert!!

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Super Snooper

Yep, I wear progressive lenses, and if I waited for a clear front site I would be dead. I practice a lot at draw, point, and shoot. Dry fire helps me a lot.

mmmmm….Pizza !

the boxes are outstanding targets!
I use them as well
5 - 7 yards point shooting all day long

Pizza boxes would be great...........


I just used plain ol copy paper.


Back in the day when I was in fighting trim....

Two 5 inch N frame S&W revolvers at once.
Five shots from each. Hip /point shooting, starting from the draw at 15 feet.








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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

yes sir! I practice point shooting, dry firing with a laser cartridge continually. Before drawing, sighting the intended target and then drawing and firing. Location outside in the backyard, picking a target, at various distances or often in the house at various objects, pictures, figurines, etc.. Unfortunately, drawing can't be done on the local indoor range. But point and shoot can.

yes sir! I practice point shooting, dry firing with a laser cartridge often. Before drawing, viewing the intended target and then drawing and firing. Location outside in the backyard, picking a target, at various distances or often in the house at various objects, pictures, figurines, etc.. Unfortunately, drawing can't be done on the local indoor range. But point and shoot can.

When I first read this thread I realized I never even tried that. The other day at the range i tried it from 10 yards. Oops. Hit the target 2 out of 8 shots. Realized I really need to practice point shooting now.

It depends on how you define "point shooting".

I will practice shooting from a close in retention position starting from a draw at ranges of 1 to 3 yards. One of the things I focus on is keeping the support hand high and close to the chest. That's important to develop muscle memory that keeps the support hand high, so that if you ever need to extend the support are outward to create some space or ward off an attack, the hand will stay above your line of fire.

That said, I also practice side stepping and pivoting while at least pointing if not actually shooting my pistol (it isn't something you can do at a range). If I am ever charged by someone with a knife, I have no plans to stay on the X but rather will let the assailant's momentum carry him past as I side step to the side, pivot and continue sidestepping 90 degrees away from his line of advance as the tries to turn into me. In the 5 or 6 seconds it will take him to actually close to a close in retention distance, I'm going to be shooting him multiple times from an isosceles stance and then if he is still closing pulling the pistol back into a close in position.

If we are talking about ranges beyond 1-3 yards then I see no value in "point shooting" if that is defined as not using the sights. Yes, I know that about 80% of LEOs report never looking at the sights, even in longer range shoots. That doesn't mean sights are useless in a self defense shoot, it means most LEOs are poorly trained and or do not practice enough to master the use of sights or their services weapon in a stressful situation. Ignore the sights in a real world shoot is one of the primary reasons that LEOs in real world shoots perform poorly at even short ranges of 5-7 yards and perform abysmally at ranges over 7 yards.

It takes a lot more time and practice, but it also makes a lot more sense and results in equal speed and greater accuracy to learn to raise your pistol to your line of sight and as the front sight comes on target to pause and ensure the rear sights are aligned before firing.

(If the rear sights are not even close, or if the front sight is too low to even see, then you need to back up a step and select a hand gun or perhaps a new set of grips that actually fits your hand. You should be able to look at the target, close your eyes, bring the pistol up then open your eyes and have the front sight on target and the rear sight in the general vicinity of the front sight.)

Once you have paused and tweaked the sight alignment, hold the alignment while you finish the trigger pull. You'll start out slow but as you practice and as you develop your grip, the muscles in your hand and arm will know exactly what they need to do to create the sight alignment. At the same time your trigger finger and hand will also learn how to complete the trigger pull without significantly disturbing the sight alignment.

After awhile you'll find the pause is indeed only needed to verify the sight alignment, not correct it. At that point you can start picking up speed and essentially only reference the front sight and it's position on the target.

Once you are shooting accurately at speed, the "pause" is really only a small fraction of a second where you are verifying the need to shoot once the front sight is on target. By that time you'll have put a few thousand rounds down range, but you'll find you are shooting just as fast and with far greater accuracy than if you were "point shooting".

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Edit:

I want to make it very clear that no matter how good or bad police officers shoot when pursuing an armed suspect, going to slide lock reloading and shooting some more, and in the process skipping bullets all over the neighborhood, you as an armed citizen literally cannot afford to do that.

When an officer does it, he's doing it with the backing of department's 1) policies, 2) attorneys, 3) liability insurance, 4) in many cases sovereign immunity, and 5) a great deal of latitude from the courts on things such as "mistake of fact" shootings.

Those are all things you as an armed citizen do not have. When an officer hits an innocent bystander, but is otherwise within policy and the limits of the law, it's a tragedy, but the officer isn't going to jail and probably isn't going to even be reprimanded unless he used really poor judgement getting into the situation in the first place.

If you tag an innocent bystander, there's a very good chance you are going to jail and even if you manage to avoid jail, you're going to get sued in civil court, where you will lose and receive a judgment that will probably bankrupt you and your family.

If you really plan to use a hand gun in self defense, then learn to shoot it well, shoot it a lot and when ever you can shoot it in situations that involve stress, time pressure and movement that will better reflect real world self defense shoot conditions.