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Old 07-26-2018, 08:37 PM
Old Arkansawyer Old Arkansawyer is offline
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Default Point shooting

Considering that most self defense shootings happen at a short distance, does anyone but me practice point shooting? I see lots of targets posted shot at X yards with all in the 10 ring and I do see some benefit for shooting fixed targets, but probably not happening in the world for self defense. I try to point shoot everything from milk cartons to home made cardboard figures. It helps that I live in the country with no close neighbors. Just wondering.
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:40 PM
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Yes sir, 0 - 10yds regularly. Used to be taught when I started in law enforcement.....
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:42 PM
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I like to shoot survey stakes., pine cones, oranges, whatever. Just getting hard to find anyone left to toss them at me.
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:46 PM
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I practice every time I go shooting, in conjunction with drawing from concealment.
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Old 07-26-2018, 08:54 PM
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Yup, point shooting from retention. Basically hip shooting. I use old pizza boxes.
If I can draw my snubby, hip shoot and center mass a pizza box from 7 yards, I figger I'm doing pretty good.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:00 PM
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Absolutely! Point shooting as taught by Sykes, Fairbairn and Applegate is still an essential skill when the targets are close and capable of shooting back. Just another technique that should be part of anyone's skill set if they carry a handgun regularly.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:11 PM
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A lot depends on what you call point-shooting. I primarily practice what I label threat-focused shooting. From retention/compressed positions(pure point-shooting by anyone's definition) as well as bringing the gun up to eye level and at most look through the sights(varied opinions on what to label it). I very rarely ever focus on the sights. Of course many "SME's" will tell me that I'm wrong.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:22 PM
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Point shooting is probably 90-95% of my practice at the range. I shoot mostly at 7 or 10 yards. At 15 yds, I have to start using the sights.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:29 PM
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My father taught me to point shoot and I have stuck with it ever since.

I could remove the sights from my CC and SD guns and I don't think I would notice.
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Old 07-26-2018, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribwizzard View Post
I like to shoot survey stakes., pine cones, oranges, whatever. Just getting hard to find anyone left to toss them at me.
You may need to take up knife throwing and find a different set of folks to be on the receiving end.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:54 PM
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Point shooting practice is a standard part of my practice since I learned it taking a LE course many years ago. We were taught to point shoot to center mass from out to 10 yards at Transtar silhouette targets. If we shot tight groups, the instructors knew we were wasting valuable time using our sights. They videoed each of us at the beginning of the course, and at the end of the two week course, after we'd been taught using the thumb's forward grip to control recoil and muzzle flip. That grip allowed an amazing improvement in the speed of our center mass follow up shots.
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Old 07-26-2018, 11:20 PM
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I've been watching this & other similar old training videos and I find them very interesting.

Fast forward to 4:33 for the old school way of point shooting.

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Old 07-27-2018, 12:43 AM
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Point or hip shooting is fine at contact to about 3y. Past that, especially if uou & your target are moving, you are gaining nothing by trying to index your body to "point shoot" when bringing the gun up for a flash sight pictur is just as fast & far more accurate out 10y or so. Past that, you need to be finding the front sight on the target for best accuracy at speed.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:46 AM
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When I shoot at targets 3-5 yards out I do not aim. I just point and shoot with the gun held about chest level. Usually I manage 2 A zone shots on an IPSC target.

One competition I shoot monthly has a stage at 7 yards. Load with (no more than) 6 rounds. Draw and fire 6 rounds at one target, reload and fire 6 rounds at second target. The total time allowed is 15 seconds and the gun must be below shoulder height, ie; no sights allowed.

I shoot this with my 686-4 and most shooters on this stage raise the pistol to a low shoulder height. I just lock the pistol at my belly button with my elbows above my hips and use my body and thumbs as sights to a8m the pistol.

The target is the old ISSF Rapidfire target which appears to be the same as the NRA B-18 target.

I shot this stage on Tuesday for a stage score of 107/120.

Target 1: 10,9,9,9,9,9
Target 2: 10,10,9,8,8,7

I was writing down the scores then going to photograph the two targets but my shooting buddy was keen and had already patched out target 1 by the time I had written down the target 2 scores

I have point shot out to 10 meters and hit the target, but I really need to practice some more at distances past 7 yards.
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Old 07-27-2018, 02:49 AM
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I wear bifocals and for me at least, the only way I would ever have a chance with a gun is by using something like the system in that old FBI film posted above. You have to work out a system that is effective for YOU.
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:47 AM
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Teaching NRA Personal Protection classes, we defined point shooting as
"extending the handgun from a ready position to normal two-handed
firing stance, with the muzzle pointed toward center of mass of the target,
and firing as soon as your arms are in the shooting position." It is the
technique used when an attack occurs so close and fast that any reference
to sight alignment is impossible.

If a split second is available, the flash sight picture is a better choice.
In this technique the shot is fired as soon as the front sight is roughly
lined up somewhere within the rear sight notch. I haven't been teaching
now for about 3 years, but if I recall correctly, this drill was conducted at
about 6 feet from the target, because that is the approximate distance
of a majority of defensive shootings.

If the attack is within arms reach, which many are, neither of the two
above techniques would be appropriate. Some martial arts training
incorporating blocking, parrying, and moving is advised for arms length
attacks.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi cop View Post
When I shoot at targets 3-5 yards out I do not aim...
Retired LEO I took some defensive shooting classes from was fond of saying “When you shoot, you always aim. You just don’t always use your sights.” Got the impression it was one of those words matter things he had learned the hard way.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:14 AM
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Have used and taught point shooting since the 1970s...

If you look at the gunfight videos over on YouTube and LiveLeak no one uses their sights in a gunfight... Of the couple dozen officers I've spoken with about their encounters, only two used their sights but that is because the guy shooting at them was 35 yards away.

Bob
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:33 AM
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Description of Robin Brown’s “Pistol Quick Kill” point shooting technique. It’s a derivative of Lucky McDaniel’s “Quick Kill” technique the Army taught towards the end of the Vietnam War. (I was in right at the end, but never saw it).

Quick Kill pointshooting with a pistol or handgun - Shooters Forum
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Cottle View Post
Yes sir, 0 - 10yds regularly. Used to be taught when I started in law enforcement.....
Same here. Went through LEO basic in 1976. Taught point shooting from 5 yard line. I don't think it is taught any more.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:28 AM
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Here’s a drill I like to use: Paper plates at three, five & seven yards. Empty your carry gun, loaded w/your carry rounds, as fast as possible and combat reload w/a speed strip or speed loader and repeat. The goal is to keep all 10 rounds on the plate. Slow down slightly as distance increases (painc speed is the objective) and if your range allows it, draw the gun from the holster you use every day.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:31 AM
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Unhappy EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

When you point your finger, you never miss. Kinda the same principal. During steel challenge @ a minimum of 10 yards I can point shoot & hit the first target MOST times & the 2nd SOME times, BUT transitioning from point shooting to using sights costs me time. FOR ME to score "consistent" pie plate sized groups point shooting, it's gotta be close ( app 3 yards), which is not such an unrealistic S/D distance IMO. IF I practiced MUCH more???
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:02 AM
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I do practice point shooting, mostly with my left hand. Almost always with my S&W 30-1 or 650. I shoot at 3 & 5 yards. I use the cardboard that is the bottom of a case of Dasani. This is about the size of a man’s chest. The cardboard is tough. I have been shooting at a few of these for three years and there still aren’t any holes in them.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:13 AM
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I practice a lit'l hip and point shooting....I use that word practice kinda loosely.

From the draw, with either hand and starting at hip level and
working my way upward toward the Weaver stance.

Also have practice point shooting from the chest height ready position.
(was taught that in the state police in-service training for active shooter...building clearing exercise)


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Old 07-27-2018, 09:24 AM
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Taking into account the 21 ft rule..................

I practice point shooting out to about 5-7yds and tend to use a flash sight picture out to 10-12/15 yds........

Having done some simulation training and ALICE training in the last three months....... I only recall one or two situations where going to a traditional sight picture was even an option. Heck in a one situation in the simulation exercises I don't even remember drawing after seeing a gun come up over the bed of a pickup truck....... I had a flashlight in my left hand and fired 3 times with the gun extended just below eye level.... three hits at about 15ft. The "bad guy" got off one round aimed at my on screen "partner"

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Old 07-27-2018, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVshooter View Post
I've been watching this & other similar old training videos and I find them very interesting.

Fast forward to 4:33 for the old school way of point shooting.

YouTube
Thank you or posting this. I like those old school fundamentals.
Time for me to load-up some wax bullet loads and do some practice in the garage.
I'm in the process of switching from pocket carry to owb. Pocket carry seems too slow. I have a Bianchi 5 Black Widow holster on order.
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Old 07-27-2018, 12:20 PM
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Threads like this make me wonder if some of those old timers actually knew a bit more than they sometimes get credit for. Every notice that some guns seem to make point shooting easier? For me it's a round butt J or K Frame with Magna grips. My SIGs pistols are the toughest to point shoot with.
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Old 07-27-2018, 01:15 PM
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I routinely practice point shooting. In 2016 I took a "Close Quarter Pistol Craft" class and even at distance nobody used their sights for the entire day. The Australian instructor was surprised at how good everyone was at it - I told him, "This is Texas. We can shoot here."

You have to be able to hit a human sized target (torso) by point shooting because it is unlikely that you will have time to focus and aim under dire circumstances.
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Old 07-27-2018, 02:22 PM
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I routinely practice point shooting. In 2016 I took a "Close Quarter Pistol Craft" class and even at distance nobody used their sights for the entire day. The Australian instructor was surprised at how good everyone was at it - I told him, "This is Texas. We can shoot here."

You have to be able to hit a human sized target (torso) by point shooting because it is unlikely that you will have time to focus and aim under dire circumstances.
At what distance with what time limits? Are the targets moving, are you moving?
Many think they are point shooting at shoulder level but you are sighting off the slide, using it as a rough flash sight picture. Few are truly point or hip shooting. Prove it to yourself, close your eyes.
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Old 07-27-2018, 02:42 PM
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I got 1000 once fired brass loaded up and started practicing with My 642

after a while I was getting sub-1 second draws with hits on steel.






here's 5 in a row, all under 1 second.

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Old 07-27-2018, 04:33 PM
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Thank you or posting this. I like those old school fundamentals.
Time for me to load-up some wax bullet loads and do some practice in the garage.
I'm in the process of switching from pocket carry to owb. Pocket carry seems too slow. I have a Bianchi 5 Black Widow holster on order.
I am more the fan of revolvers than I was before. it's amazing how natural of a pointer a 4" model 10 can be without using the sights. My edc is a 642 which i carry in a Bianchi Lightnin' 55 OWB holster. It rides high & allows for a very quick & positive grip on the pistol.

I do a lot of dry fire practice at home. I have followed this video and practiced drawing as shown in front of a mirror. These tactics only apply to revolvers as semi autos have a different geometry and IMHO not as natural of a pointer at the hip as revolvers are.
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:42 PM
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I was taught that proper point shooting requires a gun in each hand.
It was going well until the pair of 500s .......

An unloaded Bug with a laser allows for different aspects of point shooting practice without dry firing.

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Old 07-27-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Many think they are point shooting at shoulder level but you are sighting off the slide, using it as a rough flash sight picture. Few are truly point or hip shooting. Prove it to yourself, close your eyes.
That would be the silhouette point. Some label it point-shooting and some don't. If visual focus is on the threat rather than the sights, I see it still being a form or point-shooting. I don't think the gun being brought up into the line of sight really matters since people do that when they actually point with the visual focus being on the object rather than on the finger or hand.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:20 PM
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I live in the country, as well. I was a peace officer for 30 years, so I had to become proficient at both. I think everyone should do so.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:56 PM
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Not a fan of any of this.
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:02 PM
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Point shoot regularly and also point shooting while on
the move .. moving left or right while shooting multiple
targets at the out door range I frequent ..

Much harder then it appears to be able to keep rounds on target
so practice is need .. many are not able to move in a range with stations you have to remain at ..
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
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Not a fan of any of this.
Care to tell us why?
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Old 07-27-2018, 06:46 PM
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Not a fan of any of this.
Please explain.

not a fan of point shooting ?

I practice using iron sights also.

from the draw, 2 hits on steel, 1.54 seconds.

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Old 07-27-2018, 07:15 PM
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I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.
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Old 07-27-2018, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.
Watch my video again, I'm drawing from concealment, and bringing the 642 up higher than hip level.

here it is in slow-mo

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Old 07-27-2018, 08:05 PM
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I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.
The majority of civilian defense scenarios take place inside of 3 yards and it's generally not a good idea to extend your weapon at those distances, so compressed and retention shooting positions should be an integral part of anyone's training if self-defense preparedness is the goal.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Ribwizzard View Post
I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.

Close encounters with an animal jumping out of the bush.... it happens!
A laser on a gun is another “modern” version of what you stated.... a family favorite..... pin the muzzle on the donkey.

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Old 07-27-2018, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribwizzard View Post
I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.

I guess you missed the FBI training video I posted.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:28 PM
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I'm drawing from concealment, and bringing the 642 up higher than hip level.
That is my definition of point shooting as well.

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Old 07-27-2018, 09:15 PM
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In the movie “Gangster Squad”, Robert Patrick explains to Michael Pena that he should not aim where the target is, but where it is going to be.
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:38 PM
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That would be the silhouette point. Some label it point-shooting and some don't. If visual focus is on the threat rather than the sights, I see it still being a form or point-shooting. I don't think the gun being brought up into the line of sight really matters since people do that when they actually point with the visual focus being on the object rather than on the finger or hand.
Yet your brain is seeing the gun. So a form of point shooting, semantics maybe, but not what some are saying. No one hip shoots with any significant accuracy much beyond contact, 3-5y. Then put everything in motion, the gun will come up Into your vision & you are shooting off the slide or bbl, laying it on the target & press. Still a relatively close range endeavor at high speed if you want good hits, imo. Most fast accurate shooting out to 15y is getting some index of the gun using at least the front sight. Again, if one really thinks they are naturally point shootng, do it blind folded, see how much you really are using the gun as a ref.
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Old 07-28-2018, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ribwizzard View Post
I just dont feel shooting from the hip is something we need to bring back. Ok, maybe in cowboy shoes or something, but I really disagree with any real world application.
It's not like we are going to be walking around town, open. Carry, with slicked up fast draw holsters, are we? No, so all the advantages are gone and we are left spending valuable training time and $$ on technique that works against our natural way of aim. We dont throw rocks, spears ,punches, or even flick buggers from hip level. Its unnatural and created by Hollywoods depiction of old west gunslingers.
You want worthwhile aim shooting? Practice picking a point of aim, close your eyes and then bring your gun on target. Keep practicing until when you open your eyes, the gun is right on target. Then you will have speed and accuracy.
I just spent a full day on defensive tactics which included two hours of weapon retention drills. One of the things stressed by the training officer was than con’s worldwide have plenty of spare time to practice disarming drills on each other. When someone is going for your pistol then they have intent to cause death or GBH. At 2-3 feet you simply are not able to bring your gun up to aim, you have to pull the trigger without using the sights usually with your pistol back at hip level. Do you know where you will hit in a close quarters fight to retain your pistol?

Anyone who carries a pistol, cop or civilian, should think seriously about acquiring this skill for their own safety. There is a reason it was taught to old time cops. And if you go back to re-read (or read for the first time) my earlier post you will see that this string is at 7 yards, the magic 21 feet. Knowing I can hit centre of mass t that range with my pistol held at belt buckle level gives me an advantage in a lethal force encounter.
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Old 07-28-2018, 07:01 AM
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How many practice open carry? With slick quick draw holsters like in the FBI video?
With IWB , your telling me that your going to draw, the lower your weapon back down to belt level before you shoot? NO, OF COURSE NOT!
The gentleman above shooting steel is not shooting from the hip, he fires from much higher more natural point of aim.
And for wild animals, most are lower than hip level, you going to shoot over their head.
Yes, at point blank range, there is no need to aim. But that is more about practicing drawing from your choice of holster than shooting from the hip.
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Old 07-28-2018, 08:14 AM
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Excellent discussion. In an earlier post I mentioned it being part of LEO training in the 1970's. We carried Model 10s. We were taught to watch where the first shot impacted and adjust aim as needed by rotating the wrist up or down s!ightly. Point shooting was part of the double action qualification course. I believe it was 6 rounds in groups in 2 (draw and fire) on the command.
Dr Bob Rotella a sports psychologist as written numerous books on golf and worked with pro golfers. He regularly refers to the ",mind-body" connection of focus on the smallest target possible and your body will adjust by hitting to it. The same as throwing a baseball to someone holding a catchers mitt. It works in golf. Don't over think the mechanics.
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ribwizzard View Post
How many practice open carry? With slick quick draw holsters like in the FBI video?
With IWB , your telling me that your going to draw, the lower your weapon back down to belt level before you shoot? NO, OF COURSE NOT!
The gentleman above shooting steel is not shooting from the hip, he fires from much higher more natural point of aim.
And for wild animals, most are lower than hip level, you going to shoot over their head.
Yes, at point blank range, there is no need to aim. But that is more about practicing drawing from your choice of holster than shooting from the hip.
Maybe go on YouTube and search for close-quarter and retention shooting to get a better idea of the what's going on. And even if the gun is not brought up into the line of sight, you're still technically aiming the weapon.
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