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Old 08-02-2018, 09:40 PM
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Gary Slider Gary Slider is online now
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Default MI School Carry. . . WV St. Police. . . MA Stun Guns. . . Gun Sniffing Dogs. . . TSA

Michigan – The Michigan Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling on July 27, 2018 with the media and RBKAs Orgs reporting that by them upholding the previous court ruling that K-12 schools can ban firearms from their schools. Michigan Open Carry Michigan Open Carry, Inc. | who was a party in the suit is saying “hold on a minute!” You can read what Michigan Open Carry is putting out on the ruling at
No, the Michigan Supreme Court Did NOT Rule That Schools Can Ban Guns. | Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
You can read the court opinion at
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/a...mInSchools.pdf
For now the Courts have given Schools the right to make Policy banning the open carrying of firearms from their premises. State Law already makes Concealed Carry illegal on K-12 Property.

West Virginia State Police – West Virginia is my home state. Been living here since I was born at the middle of the last century. That makes me OLD! Our State Police will not update their website which lists states which WV honors and who honors them. If you go to the listing at Concealed Weapon Permit Reciprocity you will see that they are stating the five states listed at the bottom are not honored by WV. Well they are! I have emailed them more than once and nothing gets changed. People looking at Handgunlaw.us and then the link I did have to the WVSP Listing would email me saying Handgunlaw.us is incorrect. You could click on Contact us at the bottom of the WVSP Listing and drop them an email. If you do please be nice and just tell them their listing is out of date big time. I have found out if you make them work reading your emails and they have to read a lot of them they will fix it so they don’t have that work to do! Yes WV is permitless carry but they still honor permits and it makes a difference as WITHOUT a permit WV honors if they drive onto K-12 School property with a loaded firearm they are an instant Felon! Us with valid permits can do that. Another stupid law but that is the law until it is changed.

Massachusetts - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140: Section 131J

Sections 131¾, 131K and 131P shall not apply to stun guns. The secretary of public safety and security shall promulgate regulations restricting access or use of stun guns by non-licensed persons and establishing minimum safety and quality standards, safe storage requirements, education and safety training requirements and law enforcement training on the appropriate use of stun guns, which shall require that any stun gun purchased or used by a law enforcement or public safety official include a mechanism for tracking the number of times the stun gun has been fired. (Above is the new wording for this section after the Supreme Court Ruling saying they couldn’t ban them. The link will still show the old text of the law until they updated it. Those with a valid permit to carry in Mass can carry a stun gun also but I look for Mass to put on a lot of restrictions through Administrative Rules and they will most likely even throw in the kitchen sink along with the fridge for good measure covering those who don’t have a permit to carry a concealed firearm in Mass!!!! Other states still have bans on the books and watching to see what they do with them after the SCOTUS ruling.) https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...40/Section131J
A couple Items worth mentioning!!!

Stephen Wenger http://spw-duf.info/ sent me this awhile back and I believe it needs shared: Everyone knows that dogs have a great sense of smell. Most people know that they can detect drugs. Fewer people perhaps know that they are also capable, it is said, of using their noses to sniff out guns. But D.C. police reported an example of this on Tuesday. According to the police a car had failed to heed a stop sign around 5:15 p..m. on Monday in in the 1200 block of Neal Street, in the Trinidad area of Northeast [Washington]. Police stopped the car. As reported by the police, the driver turned out to have a valid license. But it happened, police [said], that one of their specially trained dogs was at the scene. The dog, according to a police account, gave a signal that indicated the presence of a gun. The police said that a gun was indeed found in the car. They said they made an arrest on a charge of carrying a pistol [without] a license.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...7a3_story.html

Transportation Security Administration (TSA) – Over the years the TSA has stated that only the Passenger checking the firearm should have a key or combination of the lock on a hard sided case when declared in checked baggage when flying. This is true but there have been many debates over the years with some stating that only TSA approved Locks could be use and others saying any lock would do. The argument has been settled as the TSA is now stating in writing the following. “You may use any brand or type of lock to secure your firearm case, including TSA-recognized locks.” You can see that on their site at https://www.tsa.gov/travel/transport...and-ammunition
The Michigan Info on K-12 Opinion, Link to WVSP Listing and Massachusetts Stun Gun Law Changes have already been added to their respective state pages at Handgunlaw.us
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:55 PM
Whitwabit Whitwabit is offline
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Thanks Gary for keeping us abreast of the new gun laws ..

Would be much harder with out the work that you do
for the good of us all ..

Thanks !!
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Old 08-09-2018, 12:14 AM
jwk jwk is offline
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I've had a police dog handler testify that if someone had touched an illegal drug then opened your car door there would be enough for the dog to sign. I've also seen officers claim anything short of the dog peeing on the tire was the dogs sign that drugs were present, I've also seen no drugs found after the dog went bonkers.

While I respect police officers somethings just won't hunt. Also don't drive through Eastland County Texas if you valet parked your car in Dallas.

The answer to most gun violence is to have adequate funds to treat mental illness. 2nd part is treat drug abuse as an illness rather than just a crime. Jail 8s cheaper than treatment but when a person w a drug problem gets out of jail they still have a drug problem. Drug addicts commit other crimes to fund their habit bc illegal drugs are expensive. Actually most drugs w potential for abuse are cheap. We should treat most drugs like we treat alcohol. Reason that doesn't happen are the vested interests. Drug dealers don't want to compete w Wal-Mart on price. There is too much money in law enforcement drug interdiction etc for police agencies (not individual officers) to want it to be legal. The criminal justice system thrives on drug related money. That's also lawyers, judges DAs offices and private prisons.

Sorry to hijack the thread and get on a soapbox but it kinda fit with the guns in schools issue. BTW arming teachers is not a good idea. Allowing teachers who are gun people to carry on body only while at school might be excellent. Just because a person is an excellent teacher doesn't mean they have the right mindset to carry. I'd like to see investigating the use of retired military people and even disabled vets w/o PTSD issues as resource officers. I'd bet a retired NCO who helped turn young men into better mature men might be good w a kid with problems as well as providing better security at schools.

Last edited by jwk; 08-09-2018 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:06 AM
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vipermd vipermd is offline
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Originally Posted by jwk View Post
BTW arming teachers is not a good idea. Allowing teachers who are gun people to carry on body only while at school might be excellent. Just because a person is an excellent teacher doesn't mean they have the right mindset to carry.
Not quite sure what you are saying- do not arm teachers, but allowing teachers to carry on body might be excellent. I do not have a dog in the fight. It is not a simple issue. So what are you saying, Thank You. Be Safe,
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:25 AM
moosedog moosedog is offline
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I think he's saying that a mandatory requirement for teachers to carry is a bad idea. But letting those who are gun owners, ex military, etc, who are familiar with guns and want to carry would be a good idea.
I agree. Most teachers I know would not be good gun handlers.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:10 AM
jwk jwk is offline
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Not quite sure what you are saying- do not arm teachers, but allowing teachers to carry on body might be excellent. I do not have a dog in the fight. It is not a simple issue. So what are you saying, Thank You. Be Safe,
Appears to me that we gun folks have a push on to arm teachers. It makes a good sound bite but of the teachers I have known since becoming an adult I think it is generally a bad idea. There would be a lot of folks jump on that bandwagon. If you look at those people many would not be responsible gun carriers. I have a problem w a handgun sitting in a purse stuck in a teachers desk. That is exactly what would happen w a lot of teachers.

On the other hand there are teachers who have gone to the trouble of learning to shoot and who have gotten their state's carry permit despite not being allowed to carry at school. Many of those would carry responsibly with the handgun on body at all times.

Next while allowing teachers to carry appears to be cost effective it will make many schools avoid spending money on other effective ways of trying to limit gun violence. Why spend money on metal detectors and reconfiguring school access when we can let teachers carry? When I was married to a teacher she was allowed a pittance to equip her classroom while the football team for that district had money thrown at it. I was in athletics in school but I think educating kids is more important than extracirrular activities.

FYI my Mom taught until she retired. She has a permit to carry. Mom would leave a gun in her purse in her desk drawer sooner or later. My ex-wife who was an excellent special education teacher - there is no way that she should be allowed to carry a gun. She accidently pepper sprayed herself playing with her pepper spray. While married to teacher ex-wife we socialized with a lot of teachers. Let's just say that I think we should pay teachers a lot more BUT HIRE A MORE COMPETENT BUNCH OF PEOPLE TO TEACH. That is another subject though. There are good people in teaching but being a good person who loves kids doesn't necessarily mean you're competent to carry a gun.

Finally I live in rural Texas. Gun country without a doubt. I have spent a lot of time at my kids schools. I know the teachers. I have also represented more than a few teachers in my profession as a lawyer. I wouldn't want to see most of them carry a gun. That would actually be scary. Some of the administrators would actually be the worst. I know that is a generalization but it is one based upon more experience than many folks have with the teaching profession. Overall I think it is going to cost money but there are better ways to protect our kids rather than pushing to arm teachers.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:39 AM
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A dog can not smell a gun, its just plastic or steel. What they can smell is gun powder residue or cleaning solvents or gun powder. What is bothersome for me about using dogs to sniff you or your car is you may have just been to the range & have such residue on you or in your car. If you are carrying illegally, well ya get caught.
This isnt any diff than the sniffers they use at airports. I got flagged at atlanta one year when they were swabbing hands. I had packed my cloths that morning, that I had worn to a two day match, & didnt wash my hands well enough. No big deal, but shows you how these things work.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:44 AM
Bamabred Bamabred is offline
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Originally Posted by jwk View Post
Appears to me that we gun folks have a push on to arm teachers. It makes a good sound bite but of the teachers I have known since becoming an adult I think it is generally a bad idea. There would be a lot of folks jump on that bandwagon. If you look at those people many would not be responsible gun carriers. I have a problem w a handgun sitting in a purse stuck in a teachers desk. That is exactly what would happen w a lot of teachers.

On the other hand there are teachers who have gone to the trouble of learning to shoot and who have gotten their state's carry permit despite not being allowed to carry at school. Many of those would carry responsibly with the handgun on body at all times.

Next while allowing teachers to carry appears to be cost effective it will make many schools avoid spending money on other effective ways of trying to limit gun violence. Why spend money on metal detectors and reconfiguring school access when we can let teachers carry? When I was married to a teacher she was allowed a pittance to equip her classroom while the football team for that district had money thrown at it. I was in athletics in school but I think educating kids is more important than extracirrular activities.

FYI my Mom taught until she retired. She has a permit to carry. Mom would leave a gun in her purse in her desk drawer sooner or later. My ex-wife who was an excellent special education teacher - there is no way that she should be allowed to carry a gun. She accidently pepper sprayed herself playing with her pepper spray. While married to teacher ex-wife we socialized with a lot of teachers. Let's just say that I think we should pay teachers a lot more BUT HIRE A MORE COMPETENT BUNCH OF PEOPLE TO TEACH. That is another subject though. There are good people in teaching but being a good person who loves kids doesn't necessarily mean you're competent to carry a gun.

Finally I live in rural Texas. Gun country without a doubt. I have spent a lot of time at my kids schools. I know the teachers. I have also represented more than a few teachers in my profession as a lawyer. I wouldn't want to see most of them carry a gun. That would actually be scary. Some of the administrators would actually be the worst. I know that is a generalization but it is one based upon more experience than many folks have with the teaching profession. Overall I think it is going to cost money but there are better ways to protect our kids rather than pushing to arm teachers.
I found your comment interesting. Full disclosure: I have been a high school teacher. I didn't choose it as a profession, and only did it for a year a so. I am a concealed carrier. My mom is also a teacher who has had shootings at her school, one just last year (No mass shootings though). I think I agree with your assessment. As far as I know I was the only carrier at the school and I don't think many teachers I worked with had the temperament to carry IMO. With that said, do you think that the teaching profession attracts certain personality types or temperaments that make them carrying in school a bad idea? Or does the teaching environment present a certain set of stressors that make carrying a challenge?
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:24 PM
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I found your comment interesting. Full disclosure: I have been a high school teacher. I didn't choose it as a profession, and only did it for a year a so. I am a concealed carrier. My mom is also a teacher who has had shootings at her school, one just last year (No mass shootings though). I think I agree with your assessment. As far as I know I was the only carrier at the school and I don't think many teachers I worked with had the temperament to carry IMO. With that said, do you think that the teaching profession attracts certain personality types or temperaments that make them carrying in school a bad idea? Or does the teaching environment present a certain set of stressors that make carrying a challenge?
Reality is most teachers are liberal minded, meaning they want others to take responsibility for just about everything, including their own safety. I am not a proponent of OC but would like to see highly trained & skilled people in schools carry concealed. You are after all asking them to go to face an active shooter, possibly multiple shooters. The shooters maybe be well trained & skilled. That is no place for a novice gun toter IMO. Most LEO are not really capable in that situation, much less a novice ccw.
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:17 PM
The Big D The Big D is offline
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Default NO, NO, NO to armed teachers...

...with rare exceptions. Very rare.

In my personal and professional experience I have been very involved in education. My Mother worked for the school board for decades, my sister is a retired teacher, I subbed for about eight (8) years, many of my friends are teachers and school administrators. NONE of the above would/could be capable of successfully using deadly force. Period.

Many are against guns, per se; some would not safely carry or use a gun based on my personal experiences with them. Others would simply refuse to do so even if they could or even were mandated to do so.

One administrator (not a friend) boasted of buying a 'black rifle' IMMEDIATELY after a school shooting and mocked it. She's the least likely to successfully use a gun in defense of anybody.

There likely are a few professional educators with the knowledge and ability to engage a school shooter. I know of none. That does not make anyone a 'bad person.' They simply have other interests and skills more important to them.

For the record, administrators of the high schools in which I subbed knew I was formerly a LEO and encouraged me to carry whilst subbing. I did so most of the time. Yes, it was legal to do so.

Be safe.
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