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  #51  
Old 08-06-2018, 11:43 AM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
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Talking WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?

I avoid weekends & around hunting season at the public allowed section of our range. I've seen & felt unsafe with some of the antics witnessed at our "overly strict" range. If some of these yahoo's were drawing from concealment, AYE CARRUMBA. All about the time/place/& type of shooters nearby???
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:36 PM
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Our county range does not allow concealed carry for anyone including Law Enforcement. No drawing from the holster at all. No handling of firearms until the range is called "Hot" and then only on the front bench where all firing is done. Very safe range, generally two range officers on the line.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
Many years back at my large gun club, I was a officer and RO and instructor...

...All was well till one day a lone member was shooting 2 nice rifles and he went down the 100 yards to check his target. When he got back up range his two rifles and ammo was gone. No car or person was seen, they must have showed up "got lucky" and took his things and then left fast!

I normally used a good spotting scope and bullet holes were easy to see at the 100 yards, in fact you could tell what was what if you were shooting different calibers. That meant I only went down to set up or retrieve target, not a trip every few shots.

When I did target set and retrieve if I was alone I left my guns locked in car unless another shooter was there to keep a eye on things. As stated most time I stayed up range and kept a eye on things. I got in the habit of turning around and looking back on the trip down range a couple times after that stolen gun incident.
Boy I hear ya'!

I take the better half with me on days I want to shoot rifles on the 200yd range. My local rifle range has 20 stations. Even so, my senses get on edge when many/most stations are occupied and we get the all-clear to go change/check our targets at 200yd. Just impossible to watch on your own, and that is why I'll take a partner every time. PLUS... I always try to get one of the very last stations at the end (#18-20).
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Smoke View Post
The Miami Shootout robbers ,Platt & Matix, were known to acquire firearms by ambushing people who were target practicing all alone out in the Everglades.

About 10 years ago a THR member was murdered on a BLM range where he'd gone shooting alone. Police speculate that he was killed for his guns. As far as I know the murder was never solved.

When I go to the range I have a concealed gun on me at all times and my wife and I make it a point that at least one of the guns that we're there to shoot that day is loaded at all times.
One of the reasons I ccw. One of the clubs I shoot is up a canyon road, the road only goes to the range. No cell service up the canyon so anyone could block the road out & ambush the people legally carrying guns locked in their trunks per Kalif law, without a ccw.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
I avoid weekends & around hunting season at the public allowed section of our range. I've seen & felt unsafe with some of the antics witnessed at our "overly strict" range. If some of these yahoo's were drawing from concealment, AYE CARRUMBA. All about the time/place/& type of shooters nearby???
As I noted, avg gun owner is poorly skilled, little to no professional training & virtually no practice but once or twice a year. Come to think of it, that applies to most LEO too.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:04 PM
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[QUOTE=NYlakesider;140124181]Many years back at my large gun club, I was a officer and RO and instructor.

All was well till one day a lone member was shooting 2 nice rifles and he went down the 100 yards to check his target. When he got back up range his two rifles and ammo was gone. No car or person was seen, they must have showed up "got lucky" and took his things and then left fast!

That happened 2 years ago at a range near me .. guy was shooting an AR and went to put up another target 100 yards down range .. his AR was gone when he got back to the bench ..

A couple of kids got caught with it and last I heard were in some kind of detention .. both under age ..
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:05 PM
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After hearing about some of your clubs and seeing the pictures I realize how lucky I really am to have the club I have.

I think our club is about 400 acres. We have Skeet, Trap, Archery, a 200 yard rifle range, a 100/50 yard range, 5 pistol ranges and 2 open bays for "tactical" shooting. Each pistol bay is about an acre. We have a clubhouse with a seating area for classes and a kitchen. They provide steel targets on most of the pistol bays and each bay (except the open bays) has a concrete floor, over head cover, benches to sit on and a table to put your guns on.

We pay $142.00 a year for membership fees and a $7.00 range fee per person every time we go to the range.

No specific rule against concealed or open carry
No rule against drawing
No rule against moving while you're shooting as long as you're the only person in that bay.
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:52 PM
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My range doesn't allow concealed carry or open carry. Guns must be unloaded unless you are in a shooting station. I think they allow for drawing from the holster in certain areas for members only.
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Old 08-06-2018, 06:34 PM
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Default When shooting bolt actions.

I pull the bolt at the cease fire & pocket it when going down range. It MAY NOT PREVENT a theft, but at least they won't get a functioning rifle.

Last edited by nachogrande; 08-06-2018 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 08-06-2018, 06:54 PM
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I pull the bolt at the cease fire & pocket it when going won't down range. It MAY NOT PREVENT a theft, but at least they won't get a functioning rifle.
Sad you have to even think that now days.
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:54 PM
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As I noted, avg gun owner is poorly skilled, little to no professional training & virtually no practice but once or twice a year. Come to think of it, that applies to most LEO too.
Is there anyone you think should be carrying a gun? You've just insulted most of the membership here . . .
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:56 PM
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Any rifle range around here is run by Missouri Department of Conservation. Some staffed, some not. I've been using them for 30 plus years. No issues. Unfortunately, it seems the general tenor of the folks that are posting on this thread is that everyone but them shouldn't be carrying a gun. Unfortunate . . .

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After hearing about some of your clubs and seeing the pictures I realize how lucky I really am to have the club I have.

I think our club is about 400 acres. We have Skeet, Trap, Archery, a 200 yard rifle range, a 100/50 yard range, 5 pistol ranges and 2 open bays for "tactical" shooting. Each pistol bay is about an acre. We have a clubhouse with a seating area for classes and a kitchen. They provide steel targets on most of the pistol bays and each bay (except the open bays) has a concrete floor, over head cover, benches to sit on and a table to put your guns on.

We pay $142.00 a year for membership fees and a $7.00 range fee per person every time we go to the range.

No specific rule against concealed or open carry
No rule against drawing
No rule against moving while you're shooting as long as you're the only person in that bay.
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Old 08-06-2018, 08:57 PM
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Sad you have to even think that now days.
If the thought is misguided and overcautious, that's the sad part . . .
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:16 PM
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Default "OVERCAUTIOUS"??? ABOUT GUN SAFETY???

My outdoor club (several thousand members & open to the public) is pretty darn cautious, yet the soda machine got shot, 1 round went parallel to the firing line through numerous bay dividers, many holes in the roof & shooting benches. NO SUCH THING AS TOO SAFE, in a crowded range with all types of shooters & personalities, IMO. I go to relax, not worry about being the next soda machine. Bring on the rules & plenty of RO's. Don't care for a structured setting, there are all kinds of ranges, mild to wild. TEHO.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:18 PM
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I thought we were talking about the potential for theft. My bad. If I thought somebody was going to steal my rifle, or load it and shoot me while I was down range, I wouldn't go there.

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My outdoor club (several thousand members & open to the public) is pretty darn cautious, yet the soda machine got shot, 1 round went parallel to the firing line through numerous bay dividers, many holes in the roof & shooting benches. NO SUCH THING AS TOO SAFE, in a crowded range with all types of shooters & personalities, IMO. I go to relax, not worry about being the next soda machine. Bring on the rules & plenty of RO's. Don't care for a structured setting, there are all kinds of ranges, mild to wild. TEHO.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:28 PM
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Default YES IT IS, BUT

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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Sad you have to even think that now days.
Many years ago it was a common practice, so much so that belt scabbards for rifle bolts were not uncommon. In the movie cool hand Luke the BOSSMAN with the mirrored sunglasses can be seen using one. Pulling a bolt is not a bad habit, even if you leave it on the bench. NO WAY a bolt rifle can fire without a bolt.
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:42 PM
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I thought we were talking about the potential for theft. My bad. If I thought somebody was going to steal my rifle, or load it and shoot me while I was down range, I wouldn't go there.
DULY NOTED. Most of those "AD's" thankfully were during ceasefires when all but the offender were behind the "safe" line & away from the bench. The soda machine was well behind the safe line but took a direct hit. It must have jumped into the line of fire at the last moment.

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Old 08-06-2018, 10:56 PM
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As I noted, avg gun owner is poorly skilled, little to no professional training & virtually no practice but once or twice a year. Come to think of it, that applies to most LEO too.

That was pretty ignorant statement. Maybe you have spent that 40 years observing the wrong people.
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Old 08-06-2018, 11:29 PM
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it seems the general tenor of the folks that are posting on this thread is that everyone but them shouldn't be carrying a gun. Unfortunate . . .
Im sorry, where did I say or even imply that everyone but me shouldn't be carrying a gun? Please be SPECIFIC.
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:10 AM
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Im sorry, where did I say or even imply that everyone but me shouldn't be carrying a gun? Please be SPECIFIC.
I specifically said "general . . . "
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:41 PM
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Concealed or open carry is ok, drawing from holster is frowned upon.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:19 PM
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My club has no rules concerning carry of any kind within the fences. Many of the members carry concealed simply because it is on our hip when we go to the club. We have a 25 yard side range where you can draw and fire to your heart's content. The main ranges are reserved for rifles or benching a handgun.

After reading these comments about theft at the various ranges I can't help but wonder why you go there. Over the years various members at my club have left spotting scopes, guns, and other odds and ends and the articles always make it back to the rightful owner. The members that leave their kit suffer no end of ribbing for their lack of memory, probably because the average active member has got to be over 60.
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:06 PM
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Over the >40 yrs that I've been shooting, I've belonged to 4 different gun clubs (private, non-profit orgs). None had any rules about CCW or OC on their ranges. However I used to OC at my first club and it was very much frowned upon, I was questioned about it (why do you do that?) as it was a totally FUDD club (bullseye and skeet/trap shooters, less than a handful actually cared about the 2nd Amendment). I finally quit that club after 24 yrs (14 of which I was a BOD member as their legislative chairman). In the years since I quit they invoked some "interesting" rules. Can't load more than 6 rds at any time on the outdoor range or 5 rds on the indoor range plus if you shoot your carry gun you are prohibited from reloading and reholstering the gun on the property!


The 2 clubs my Wife and I currently belong to both allow CCW or OC (lots of members OC), no issues. No shooting from the holster however at any time at one club. The other club allows shooting from the holster, shooting on the move, bring your own steel, shoot at any distance, etc. . . . just maintain safety.


As an NRA Instructor who teaches the Personal Protection classes, it's a shame that most clubs in MA won't allow my students to practice the drills they learned in those classes. We do offer a discounted 1st year membership for students who take classes at the club that allows holster work.


I do not shoot at public ranges. I've been in a few and witnessed actions that don't make me feel safe being there.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:52 PM
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Indoor range here allows concealed and open carry but no drawing from holster while shooting.
My favorite indoor range has the same rule. That said, I am often alone on the range and regularly violate the "no drawing from holster" rule. It is selectively enforced.

Whatever gun I carry to the range usually does not get shot during the same trip. Sometimes, I pull it to fire off and replace old carry ammo.
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:54 PM
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My local range operates as a cold range at all times. The cold range limitation does not apply to firearms carried under legal authority such as Texas LTC or active law enforcement. They do allow practicing from concealment as long as you're on the firing line. After you're done, you need to reconfigure it for concealed carry or keep an empty chamber while putting the firearm away.
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Old 08-08-2018, 06:59 PM
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Unfortunately, it seems the general tenor of the folks that are posting on this thread is that everyone but them shouldn't be carrying a gun.
I'm often a contrarian...there are plenty of people here that should be carrying a gun before I do. I'm not implying that I shouldn't be carrying one, just that there are many more qualified.
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:39 PM
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Boy I hear ya'!

I take the better half with me on days I want to shoot rifles on the 200yd range. My local rifle range has 20 stations. Even so, my senses get on edge when many/most stations are occupied and we get the all-clear to go change/check our targets at 200yd. Just impossible to watch on your own, and that is why I'll take a partner every time. PLUS... I always try to get one of the very last stations at the end (#18-20).
I do the same .. My wife accompanies me and sets off to the side or in the Jeep if its too hot .. She always has my back and I always have at least one loaded at all times ..

The out door range I use is not near anything so someone could be robbed of their guns pretty easy if not very careful ..
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:51 PM
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I always carry at the range. I wouldn't shoot at a range that disallowed it.

It's very odd that a range would be fine with someone shooting a firearm, but not have one hidden in a holster.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:19 PM
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Is there anyone you think should be carrying a gun? You've just insulted most of the membership here . . .
Its not an insult its reality. Notice i said average, not every.
We have to shoot for qualification here for our ccw. It s a static B27-29 sil, 60rds at 3, 5 & 7, just hit the target, You must score 70%. Most barely do that in a class, some fail. If most of the forum members are that bad, well they need to practice, a lot. If you feel insulted, sorry muss that isnt on me but you. It wpuld suck to be avg in a gunfight.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:25 PM
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That was pretty ignorant statement. Maybe you have spent that 40 years observing the wrong people.
My shooting exp is quite a bit higher than most. I have been to about 1/2 dozen ccw quals, leo quals, countless competitions & many training classes. Just one trip to a ccw class verifies what I said. Ignorance is avoiding fact. Those are the facts as I see them.
Many states have zero quals or training req for ccw. Kalif has a minimal std that imo, pretty pathetic. Yes I believe every person that carries a gun in public should meet a minimu training/competancy std. I know that flies in the face of 2A idelogues, but that is my opinion. Its free, take it or leave it.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:37 PM
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My shooting exp is quite a bit higher than most. I have been to about 1/2 dozen ccw quals, leo quals, countless competitions & many training classes. Just one trip to a ccw class verifies what I said. Ignorance is avoiding fact. Those are the facts as I see them.
Many states have zero quals or training req for ccw. Kalif has a minimal std that imo, pretty pathetic. Yes I believe every person that carries a gun in public should meet a minimu training/competancy std. I know that flies in the face of 2A idelogues, but that is my opinion. Its free, take it or leave it.

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people of low ability have illusory superiority and mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:13 AM
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My shooting exp is quite a bit higher than most. I have been to about 1/2 dozen ccw quals, . . .
Clearly, I have misunderestimated you . . .
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:08 AM
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As I noted, avg gun owner is poorly skilled, little to no professional training & virtually no practice but once or twice a year. Come to think of it, that applies to most LEO too.
Yet hundreds if not thousands of people defend themselves successfully every year with little to no training/practice.

Way back when people couldn’t afford to practice. Every bullet had better put food on the table. Were these folks poorly skilled too?

Your view of your fellow gun owners is very bleak. I find that typical of those that claim to have as much experience as you do and boast about it.

In life experience counts more than anything else. But some degree of common sense must accompany that experience.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:10 AM
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Kalif has a minimal std that imo, pretty pathetic.
Actually, California has no shooting requirement in the law.

The Oklahoma CCW shooting portion is so easy, I shot it with my support hand while blindfolded. Don't believe me? Look...

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Old 08-10-2018, 04:50 AM
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Confession: gun owners supporting tests and qualifications for CCW has got to be my biggest pet peeve, especially when those same gun owners claim to be ardent defenders of liberty. So here goes...

The only thing worse than having pointlessly simple or needlessly complex CCW shooting tests is having a test for CCW at all. Simply put, I believe that supporting tests and qualifications is incompatible with truly supporting the causes of private gun ownership and self-defense.
  • Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming all seem to be getting along just fine (hint: these are the constitutional carry states). That's about 7.5% of the US population.
  • If you say the word "but" after "I support the Second Amendment", you don't support the Second Amendment.
  • Requiring tests and classes and education and training makes CCW cost money. When the government mandates that you pay money to do a thing, we call that a "tax". If you believe that adequate self defense is a fundamental human right, then it is immoral to support taxing citizens who exercise it. It is even more immoral when you consider doing so means the poorest citizens, the ones most commonly victimized by crime, will be even less able to afford access to adequate self-defense.
  • I've never heard a single person advocate for a shooting test they themselves couldn't pass, or a standard of training they hadn't already acquired.
  • When you advocate in favor of a test you can pass, but others can not, that makes you an elitist.
  • When you believe you should have access to adequate self defense, but other people are not worthy of wielding lethal force, that makes you Michael Bloomberg.

Will some goobers do stupid things with guns? Sure. The cost of freedom is that some people misuse it. But plenty of folks do just as much damage by abusing the First and Fourth Amendments, and I'm sure plenty of folks here are irritated at how others use their right to vote, and Congress' incessant abuse of their lack of term limits and budgetary authority.
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:34 AM
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Yet hundreds if not thousands of people defend themselves successfully every year with little to no training/practice.
...
Yep. When you look at news reports and online videos of self defense shootings, it seems like most of the self defenders are more like the mom and daughter in the liquor store in Oklahoma than they are like tactical gurus.

The encounters are so close, having a weapon handy and being unwilling to be a victim is more important than marksmanship training, house clearing tactics, yada, yada. The extra training makes us more comfortable with the weapon, but may not help with actual SD.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:23 AM
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Kalif
Unabashed thread drift. What are people stating or implying by spelling California with a "K?" Especially those who voluntarily live there . . .
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:34 PM
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Confession: gun owners supporting tests and qualifications for CCW has got to be my biggest pet peeve, especially when those same gun owners claim to be ardent defenders of liberty. So here goes...
Yes, I cut out the big list for brevity, but I agree with the sentiment here. My beliefs on the 2nd amendment are somewhat of a dichotomy though. First and foremost, there is no requirement to a right. If anyone wants to own/carry a gun, they have that right. There is no qualification on that whatsoever. Even so, a responsible adult will seek some kind of training and do some practice.

In the real world sometimes rights conflict. Your right to own a gun doesn't negate my right to liberty. Should a convicted violent felon retain their right to own a gun? What about someone who's insane? Do they lose their rights? Nothing is absolute.

This is where the rubber meets the road:
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Will some goobers do stupid things with guns? Sure. The cost of freedom is that some people misuse it.
I'll take dangerous liberty over supposedly safe oppression every time.

Here's where rights conflict a little. Does the owner of an establishment or a home have the right to dictate how people conduct themselves on their property? I say yes. If you want real liberty, it has to be that way. So, it doesn't surprise me that a gun range would have limits on how we handle our guns.

Some get offended that a range wouldn't allow concealed carry. Alas, most of the time those rules are there not to remove liberty from the 1% goober, but to protect 99% of responsible people from them.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:42 PM
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Yet hundreds if not thousands of people defend themselves successfully every year with little to no training/practice.

Way back when people couldn’t afford to practice. Every bullet had better put food on the table. Were these folks poorly skilled too?

Your view of your fellow gun owners is very bleak. I find that typical of those that claim to have as much experience as you do and boast about it.

In life experience counts more than anything else. But some degree of common sense must accompany that experience.
I hear this same BS all the time as to why people do not practice & train & raise their skill levels. You are confusing luck with skill. The reason most good guys win is not that they are better but that their opponent is even worse. So all good until you run up against well trained & skilled attackers. Think terrorists not tweekers.
Not boasting about anything, just giving a point of reference. Plenty of people can go to a flat range, 21ft & put every round into a pie plate, slow fire. Hell I can get a brand new shooter doing that in about 200rds. That does NOT make you ready for a dynamic gunfight, not by a country mile.
You can NOT refute the simple statistics of CCW qualifications. Seriously, 60rds @ 3, 5 & 7y, 70% to hit a huge B27 or B29 or what ever full size target that is used. Just hit it, standing still? I have seen people fail it, I have seen people barely hit the 70%. I have watched LEO quals where guys barely pass, a bit more difficult, but not a level of skill I would want LEO having. Consider the avg person, civ or LEO just does not practice. That is just fact. Do a poll, find out how many just on this forum, shoot every week or even every month. We are enthusiasts, the gen pop & gen LEO are not, fact.
IF this hurts your feelings, well I don't know what to say, man up maybe? Nothing I have said is insulting, just stating facts around the country. I am sure rural folks shoot more than city folks, but then most of the countries population is in those cities, again, just fact. So when I say avg gun owner or person carrying a gun has poor skills & little training, well again, just fact. How many shooters do you know that have had formal defensive pistol training? I shoot with 100 guys/gals every weekend. Even those shooters have had maybe 1-2 formal training classes, this includes LEO btw. So if semi serious competition shooters have that minimal training, how many gen pop gun owners have any??
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:51 PM
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My shooting exp is quite a bit higher than most. I have been to about 1/2 dozen ccw quals, leo quals, countless competitions & many training classes. Just one trip to a ccw class verifies what I said. Ignorance is avoiding fact. Those are the facts as I see them.
Many states have zero quals or training req for ccw. Kalif has a minimal std that imo, pretty pathetic. Yes I believe every person that carries a gun in public should meet a minimu training/competancy std. I know that flies in the face of 2A idelogues, but that is my opinion. Its free, take it or leave it.
NOW I'M IMPRESSED.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:17 PM
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Actually, California has no shooting requirement in the law.

The Oklahoma CCW shooting portion is so easy, I shot it with my support hand while blindfolded. Don't believe me? Look...

YouTube
Correct the state does no mandate but all the counties/municipalities do, if they issue permits at all.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:20 PM
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Unabashed thread drift. What are people stating or implying by spelling California with a "K?" Especially those who voluntarily live there . . .
Its a protest for those of us stuck here for what ever reason, generally financial. Voluntarily is a broad term, often tossed around by single people with no family or sometimes careers. I am 1-2y from retiring & it wont be here. The state used to be fine, only SanFran was the fruits & nuts. Today, every county that is not rural is a liberal craphole, but for Orange County. Why the state keeps drifting further left, too many parasites, govt & illegals & non working.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:24 PM
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NOW I'M IMPRESSED.
Again, it is not bragging or trying to impress anyone, just stating facts & disputing some that think I must shoot in a vacuum. A simple trip to any public indoor range verifies everything I have said about average shooter. I have never put a hole in the cealing in my entire 40y+ shooting.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:50 PM
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Again, it is not bragging or trying to impress anyone, just stating facts & disputing some that think I must shoot in a vacuum. A simple trip to any public indoor range verifies everything I have said about average shooter. I have never put a hole in the cealing in my entire 40y+ shooting.
I this and I that. It's gettin old Fred.

I've been shooting longer than you and I don't have all the facts. The facts as you see them doesn't make it true across the board. Blanket statements only show true ignorance.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:22 PM
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It's seems like most of the self defenders are more like the mom and daughter in the liquor store in Oklahoma than they are like tactical gurus.
The mom and daughter in Oklahoma are a bad example. They got really lucky. Their guns were right next to the register and they're lucky he didn't find them while he was emptying it.

Mom emptied her revolver into the robber and he was still in the fight enough to take the empty gun from her.

That fight was pure luck.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:02 PM
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. . . How many shooters do you know that have had formal defensive pistol training? . . .
More than I know that have formal defensive driving training to exercise the privilege of driving, and they drive a lot more than they use their constitutional right to shoot. There's also no formal voting training, arguably a more dangerous right . . .
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:25 PM
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I always carry at the range. I wouldn't shoot at a range that disallowed it.

It's very odd that a range would be fine with someone shooting a firearm, but not have one hidden in a holster.


I agree with you on both counts.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:47 PM
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Default I DOUBT IT.

[QUOTE=Whitwabit;140127145]

[QUOTE= I wouldn't shoot at a range that disallowed it.

If your options were their way or not shooting???? THEIR BALL, THEIR RULES. Not everyone has the options of wide open spaces & anything goes rules.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:37 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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The mom and daughter in Oklahoma are a bad example. They got really lucky. Their guns were right next to the register and they're lucky he didn't find them while he was emptying it.

Mom emptied her revolver into the robber and he was still in the fight enough to take the empty gin from her.

That fight was pure luck.
I wasn’t commenting on the quality of the response. I was commenting on how common that type of response is and how often it’s successful. Luck isn’t a good strategy, but a determination to win and a little luck seems to trump skill most days.

How’d you come out with the softball size hail?
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:58 PM
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Confession: gun owners supporting tests and qualifications for CCW has got to be my biggest pet peeve, especially when those same gun owners claim to be ardent defenders of liberty. So here goes...

The only thing worse than having pointlessly simple or needlessly complex CCW shooting tests is having a test for CCW at all. Simply put, I believe that supporting tests and qualifications is incompatible with truly supporting the causes of private gun ownership and self-defense.
  • Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming all seem to be getting along just fine (hint: these are the constitutional carry states). That's about 7.5% of the US population.
  • If you say the word "but" after "I support the Second Amendment", you don't support the Second Amendment.
  • Requiring tests and classes and education and training makes CCW cost money. When the government mandates that you pay money to do a thing, we call that a "tax". If you believe that adequate self defense is a fundamental human right, then it is immoral to support taxing citizens who exercise it. It is even more immoral when you consider doing so means the poorest citizens, the ones most commonly victimized by crime, will be even less able to afford access to adequate self-defense.
  • I've never heard a single person advocate for a shooting test they themselves couldn't pass, or a standard of training they hadn't already acquired.
  • When you advocate in favor of a test you can pass, but others can not, that makes you an elitist.
  • When you believe you should have access to adequate self defense, but other people are not worthy of wielding lethal force, that makes you Michael Bloomberg.

Will some goobers do stupid things with guns? Sure. The cost of freedom is that some people misuse it. But plenty of folks do just as much damage by abusing the First and Fourth Amendments, and I'm sure plenty of folks here are irritated at how others use their right to vote, and Congress' incessant abuse of their lack of term limits and budgetary authority.
You, sir, have changed my opinion on mandated training and skill qualification. Well done.
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