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08-13-2018, 11:32 AM
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"If you knew how homicidal I'm feeling tonight..."
I was walking my dog Ben the other evening after 2200 when a sedan turned into my neighborhood at a speed sufficient to make me wonder if he was going to make it. The driver managed to recover enough to wildly accelerate past me since it's a small country neighborhood I "illuminated" the back of the car to get the license plate. I saw the brake lights come on as the car went around the next corner, heard the tires wail as it turned around, and saw the lights as it accelerated back my way. I moved with my dog behind one of my neighbors' massive brick mail structure (too small to be an edifice, too large to be a box) as the car slid to a stop in the street in front of me.
I told the driver, some cowboy-hatted kid in his late teens/early 20's, that he needed to slow down. His response was, "If you knew how homicidal I'm feeling tonight, you wouldn't be ****ing with me!"
I asked him if he wanted to go to jail, and he shouted, "What are you going to do? SHOOT ME? YOU'D BE DOING ME A FAVOR!"
I figured the poor soul was too overwrought for me to allow that was a possibility, so I calmly asked him again if he wanted to go to jail.
He started to rant again, and I released my grip on Ben's leash enough for him to lunge at the open window but not enough to actually get there. The young fellow's face paled somewhat as Ben, a 65 pound black lab mix who looks carved from obsidian, appeared a foot from his window leaning into his collar and whining with excitement. Notwithstanding that our conversation hadn't actually concluded, the poor soul abused his tires, clutch, and engine tearing out of the neighborhood.
Based on the young fellow's comment about "how homicidal" he was feeling, if he had gotten out of his car, what would be my options A) with Ben and B) without Ben? Bear in mind that I'm 66 years old, 5'8", 185 lbs, in relatively good health, almost retired from a high profile security job, and carrying a 4 inch S&W Model 65-1 loaded with Speer 145 grain "Short Barrel" .357 Magnum ammo in a Bianchi #5BHL?
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08-13-2018, 11:55 AM
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I think that kid doesn’t know how lucky he is. I hoped you called it in.
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08-13-2018, 12:09 PM
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"Officer, I was looking frantically for my lost dog when I stopped to ask a pedestrian if he had seen Rover. He responded by threatening to arrest me, and then siccing his dog on me through my window . . . "
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08-13-2018, 12:10 PM
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It's very easy to provoke a confrontation. People with hair-trigger tempers can go off merely by looking at them. I find it best not to make any form of contact with them as I don't want to be in an avoidable situation that could escalate to deadly force.
Had you shot this individual, rest assured that his legal team will turn the situation around and paint you as an armed cop wannabe/vigilante. Best not to do the work that uniformed police are paid to do.
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08-13-2018, 12:10 PM
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I live in the country where response time at that hour would be 45 minutes or so. The nearby town would send someone if the subject was still "on site," but he was gone. I did call 911 and give them a description of the car and driver andast direction of travel as well as a replay of our conversation in the event that they spotted him some time during the evening.
Not much more I could do. Ben reacts correctly to aggressive behavior as do I. Yeah, the kid was lucky.
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08-13-2018, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
Based on the young fellow's comment about "how homicidal" he was feeling, if he had gotten out of his car, what would be my options?
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Just be grateful you didn't have to find out. He probably had just been told from the girl he was madly in love with that she thought he was a 24-karat bozo and to go soak his head.
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08-13-2018, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
"Officer, I was looking frantically for my lost dog when I stopped to ask a pedestrian if he had seen Rover. He responded by threatening to arrest me, and then siccing his dog on me through my window . . . "
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Well, I could always play the digital audio recording for the police/sheriff's deputies. I make it a habit to carry a little VOX recorder in my pocket. I may have to start wearing one of those small digital audio/video recorders...
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08-13-2018, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali
It's very easy to provoke a confrontation. People with hair-trigger tempers can go off merely by looking at them. I find it best not to make any form of contact with them as I don't want to be in an avoidable situation that could escalate to deadly force.
Had you shot this individual, rest assured that his legal team will turn the situation around and paint you as an armed cop wannabe/vigilante. Best not to do the work that uniformed police are paid to do.
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I was on the street walking my dog two blocks from my house. If he had just kept going, there would have been no confrontation.
I believe the digital audio recording of the encounter would have taken the wind out of his or his survivors' legal team's sails.
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08-13-2018, 12:27 PM
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Ive encountered folks akin to this nit wit several times... I try my best to avoid any conflict when the environment is not in my favor unless life and death. I too am in the 60's ... Box 3 times a week at the Y...ive used those skills recently to KO a gent that just wouldnt move away from me after I used every tactic to back up and leave... kinda felt bad a 63 yo KO a guy 1/2 my age...but hay.. I tried to be nice. Ive only drawn a weapon 1 time and that was in Military uniform....
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08-13-2018, 12:37 PM
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Kid gets OUT of his car, you do what you gotta do. The fact he exited his vehicle proves he was the aggressor.
The OP did nothing wrong. Flashing his light at a driver at night to let him know people were in the road and to be aware isn’t a boneheaded move. I don’t want to ever shoot anybody or anything, but if a person angrily exits his car to confront me, I’m gonna do what I have to do. What’s the alternative? Let him beat me to death?
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08-13-2018, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
"Officer, I was looking frantically for my lost dog when I stopped to ask a pedestrian if he had seen Rover. He responded by threatening to arrest me, and then siccing his dog on me through my window . . . "
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THIS ^^^^^^^^^^
All day, all night long........
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08-13-2018, 12:42 PM
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And before I forget........
Your "high profile security job" will most certainly play against you.
But what do I know.........
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08-13-2018, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
Well, I could always play the digital audio recording for the police/sheriff's deputies. I make it a habit to carry a little VOX recorder in my pocket. I may have to start wearing one of those small digital audio/video recorders...
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Well, since the video would show your dog attacking him through the driver window, I doubt it would be much help . . .
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08-13-2018, 12:47 PM
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When I am carrying I try to keep my big mouth shut. I don’t need any problems no matter who is the aggressor.
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08-13-2018, 12:53 PM
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STICK TO THE TRUTH.
It's easier to remember, & you won't get tripped up/tricked into being proved a liar.
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08-13-2018, 01:21 PM
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Would have been best to not confront him at all and just keep on walking. The fact that you let your dog lunge at him and asked him if he wanted to go to jail, not once but twice could have further enticed him to exit his vehicle, causing an armed or unarmed confrontation. On the other hand, if he had exited his vehicle and advanced toward you with no provocation, causing you to act, you would have been on firmer ground.
Last edited by Marshal tom; 08-13-2018 at 01:22 PM.
Reason: spelling
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08-13-2018, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
Well, since the video would show your dog attacking him through the driver window, I doubt it would be much help . . .
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No, it would show an excited dog being restrained well away from the open passenger side window. Attacking involves teeth, growling, and barking, and there was none of that. Now, if I had let my dog loose, that claim may have merit, but I did not. Remember, the recording would also include his “homicidal” threats. I think that trumps an excited three year old Lab mix.
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08-13-2018, 01:33 PM
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Best policy if not LEO is to just walk away.
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08-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
No, it would show an excited dog being restrained well away from the open passenger side window. Attacking involves teeth, growling, and barking, and there was none of that. Now, if I had let my dog loose, that claim may have merit, but I did not. Remember, the recording would also include his “homicidal” threats. I think that trumps an excited three year old Lab mix.
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It would show this, right?
Quote:
He started to rant again, and I released my grip on Ben's leash enough for him to lunge at the open window but not enough to actually get there. The young fellow's face paled somewhat as Ben, a 65 pound black lab mix who looks carved from obsidian, appeared a foot from his window leaning into his collar and whining with excitement.
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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Last edited by Muss Muggins; 08-13-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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08-13-2018, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
It would show this, right?
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If it was video. As I posted, all I have is an audio recorder.
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08-13-2018, 02:00 PM
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TOO MANY CRAZIES TOO ENGAGE.
Phone it in. Glad your dog wasn't shot.
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08-13-2018, 02:06 PM
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Teach your kids NOT to hit their horn
Well, just becuase you've been asking, IMHO you exposed yourself and your faithful dog to a useless and avoidable risk.
Moreover, disrespectful dudes don't get the opportunity of such confrontations to be educated, they don't care about others complaints (no matter how righteous they are); it's not up to you to give them a lesson in manners and it's not worth to speak the only language they would understand
I've been struck by the newspaper article whose title I paraphrased in this post.
Carlton: How guns changed everything in Florida (Or, why you should never hit your horn)
I think the author raises very important issues. well worth pondering about.
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08-13-2018, 02:08 PM
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...and exactly who was going to take him to jail---you?
Provoking confrontation and escalating it with an idle
threat, likely to antagonize--count your lucky stars
that kid didn't get out of his truck.
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08-13-2018, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins
It would show this, right?
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He doesn't get it at all.
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08-13-2018, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
If it was video. As I posted, all I have is an audio recorder.
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Hence my comment about the video not being helpful to your claim . . .
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08-13-2018, 02:56 PM
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Yikes
He could have had a shotgun on his lap backed up and started shooting when you got close to his window.
Luckily it all worked out and nobody was hurt.
Not sure what I would have done but I would have been armed if walking my dog.
Nothing wrong trying to get his plate number.
Crazy out there be careful.
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08-13-2018, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6518John
I certainly understand the frustration with reckless drivers, but I am confused by the “asking him if he wanted to go to jail” part of this. How exactly were you going to effectuate an arrest? Do you have the authority to arrest and detain someone in your state?
If not was your intent to simply call the police and have them arrest the driver? If so, why did you not simply call the police in the first place? How were you planning on detaining him until the police got there? And for what were the police going to arrest him? Reckless driving?
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The charge for which you are groping is “terroristic threats.” I initially just wanted to tell him he needed to slow down. He turned it into a confrontation.
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08-13-2018, 03:23 PM
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Just some food for thought here to go along with the general tenor of the input here. I have been a firearms instructor and combatives instructor for many years. A couple of times in the past decade I have been confronted by individuals who seriously deserved butt whoopins. In those instances I was able to meekly and apologetically walk away all the while knowing I possessed the means and ability, armed or hand to hand, to ruin their day.
I take great pride in recognizing that swallowing my pride may be best for all. Proving one is a tuff guy, unless absolutely necessary, does nobody any good. Be hopeful that your own sense of pride never escalates a situation where you have to do something that, in hindsight, you wish had never even occurred. It's rather refreshing to be able to say to yourself, "I'm glad I didn't have to kill/hurt that guy". This is not directed at the OP. Like I said, it is just food for thought.
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08-13-2018, 03:26 PM
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You have an Attack Lab? The worst thing my two boys would do to a bad guy is push him off the couch...
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08-13-2018, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
and carrying a 4 inch S&W Model 65-1 loaded with Speer 145 grain "Short Barrel" .357 Magnum ammo in a Bianchi #5BHL?
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When I see details like these, I wonder why...simply saying "I was armed"..is not sufficient...
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08-13-2018, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve912
...and exactly who was going to take him to jail---you?
Provoking confrontation and escalating it with an idle
threat, likely to antagonize--count your lucky stars
that kid didn't get out of his truck.
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1. I didn’t provoke a confrontation.
2. I didn’t escalate it, nor was my question an idle threat.
3. He was already antagonized when he drove like a maniac into my neighborhood.
4. Reading is fundamental. Hint: sedan.
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08-13-2018, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czechvar
You have an Attack Lab? The worst thing my two boys would do to a bad guy is push him off the couch...
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You get it. Apparently the only one.
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08-13-2018, 03:33 PM
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I don't think I'd have shined a light on his car, or taken a pic of his license unless I could do so covertly.
A picture of his license wouldn't do any good, anyway. Even if you call the license in to the police, I doubt they would do anything unless they saw his actions themselves.
If I see an angry bull run by, I plan to leave my red handkerchief in my pocket -- even if all I want to do is blow my nose.
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08-13-2018, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W629
When I see details like these, I wonder why...simply saying "I was armed"..is not sufficient...
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I didn’t want anyone to think I was carrying a Rossi, a Taurus, a Charter Arms, a Hi-Point, a Clerke, or an RG in some mouse gun caliber.
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08-13-2018, 03:44 PM
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...you provoked him when you "illuminated" him...
...not good to provoke anyone when you're carrying...
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08-13-2018, 03:51 PM
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You've ask for our opinions .... so I will share mine.
Rereading the OP.......My gut is telling me whoever walked away (if it had escalated to use of force) would have a good chance of facing prosecution.
Rule of thumb ...... If you are not a Police Officer don't pretend to be one ... even if you stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night!
With a maybe the cops will respond if the actor is still there (was it even their jurisdiction?) and if they do it will be 45minutes..... what were you going to do with the plate #....they didn't witness his reckless driving....so why light him up with what I'm guessing is a "X00 lumen" tactical flashlight.
If you felt compelled to do something.....why not just call in a possible 'drunk driver" on X Rd.
In your OP you said you loosened your grip and you let your dog lunge at the car......looks like it was your intent to intimidate the guy......
by the way were you open carrying ?... did you show him your gun?... what provoked his comment about "are you going to shoot me?"
Like a bad B movie ..... your repeated comments (about arresting him) could be construed as an attempt to egg the kid into doing something so you , a "Security Guy" could use your gun ...... or dog.
Seem to remember a incident in Fla a few years back; that didn't end well for either party.
Overall, IMO you certainly weren't defusing the situation with your choice of comments and actions.........
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08-13-2018, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
"If you knew how homicidal I'm feeling tonight..."
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I've liked and agreed with a lot of your posts here in the past, but I can't go along with this one. For whatever that's worth.
The only thing I see here that you did right was getting the guy's tag number. Other than that, it seems you were deliberately trying to goad the guy into a confrontation in which you envisioned yourself as coming out on top, maybe being some sort of neighborhood hero, when the exact opposite could just as easily have happened.
What were you trying to accomplish with the do-you-want-to-go-to-jail talk? What did you hope to gain by using your dog as a foil in the situation, using him as sort of a co-instigator?
Just because you're some sort of security guy and were armed doesn't make you a cop and it doesn't make you the neighborhood/area crime fighter.
And frankly, I doubt anyone cares how you were armed, what you were carrying. Giving the gun, ammo, and holster details just sounds like braggadocio on your part.
Bottom line for me is...the guy could've shot you and your poor ol' dog deadder 'n Hell, and it'd have been no one's fault but your own.
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08-13-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
I didn’t want anyone to think I was carrying a Rossi, a Taurus, a Charter Arms, a Hi-Point, a Clerke, or an RG in some mouse gun caliber.
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LOL this is the S&W Forum; you've been here 8 or 9 years and have over 1700 posts....we would have kinda guessed that!!!!
As an aside.................
What if the guy had just committed an armed robbery the local "stop and go" ( with two prior Felony convictions/ who's not going back to the "big house" for the next 20 years).............. back up...... shoot the witness who got my licence # and location before he can use his cell phone!
Last edited by BAM-BAM; 08-13-2018 at 04:05 PM.
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08-13-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbm6893
Kid gets OUT of his car, you do what you gotta do. The fact he exited his vehicle proves he was the aggressor.
The OP did nothing wrong. Flashing his light at a driver at night to let him know people were in the road and to be aware isn’t a boneheaded move. I don’t want to ever shoot anybody or anything, but if a person angrily exits his car to confront me, I’m gonna do what I have to do. What’s the alternative? Let him beat me to death?
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I may be wrong but in some jurisdictions, flashing a light at a moving car can be construed as provocation or reckless behavior. I wouldn't do it & since most states require a lit rear lic plate, I am not sure why one would say they were lighting up the lic plate. More likely lighting up the rear window to show displeasure in the reckless driving. When carrying a gun, don't do stupid things that may cause you to have to use it, jmo.
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08-13-2018, 04:06 PM
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Okay, guys. I’ve been properly chastised. Only two guys got it.
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08-13-2018, 04:13 PM
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Do also keep in mind that he knows about where you live.
You should be looking over your shoulder a little more than usual now. And be dialing it down a few notches.
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08-13-2018, 04:17 PM
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...if any of you other "dumb guys" figure out the punch line to this joke...
...could you let the rest of us in on it?...
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08-13-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
Okay, guys. I’ve been properly chastised. Only two guys got it.
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Yep you have..... but remember you did ask for our opinion(s) or advice on the situation...... sorry if we didn't as a group support your actions.
Life is one long learning experience......even after 60.
I'm thinking there's one guy who didn't get it.
When the jury count is about "30somthing" to 2...... you're getting into beyond reasonable doubt territory.
As my wife tells our Boys when they leave the house..."Make good choices!"
Good luck and be safe!
Last edited by BAM-BAM; 08-13-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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08-13-2018, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
Okay, guys. I’ve been properly chastised. Only two guys got it.
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Well you know that about 10% of the people think Elvis is still alive & we never landed on the moon & 911 was a govt hoax?? Just sayin.
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08-13-2018, 04:22 PM
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The guy gave you many clues he was unstable.
Taking a mental note of the car, and keeping an eye out for any return visit would have been sufficient in my opinion.
You took several unnecessary steps that could have lead to nothing good.
Glad you and Ben are ok and wiser from the encounter.
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08-13-2018, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
I live in the country where response time at that hour would be 45 minutes or so. The nearby town would send someone if the subject was still "on site," but he was gone. I did call 911 and give them a description of the car and driver andast direction of travel as well as a replay of our conversation in the event that they spotted him some time during the evening.
Not much more I could do. Ben reacts correctly to aggressive behavior as do I. Yeah, the kid was lucky.
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My locale and circumstances are similar, as is my Labrador. Her Highness is very very friendly, but has a nose for knuckleheads, and at 9 years of age is more prone to address asshattery with a snarl. She has scared the poop out of more than one bozo on our daily walks about the neighborhood.
By the way - those previous pearl-clutching comments serve as exemplars of how more and more hotheaded blustering yoots get way with rudeness.
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08-13-2018, 04:29 PM
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1. You did. No light, no confrontation.
2. You did. “Wanna go to jail?” along with meet my dog escalated it. B: Were you gonna hook him up? Cops are a long way away according to you.
3. Again, no light, no confrontation.
4. I got that part. I imagine that fella saw cowboy hat and imagined truck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
1. I didn’t provoke a confrontation.
2. I didn’t escalate it, nor was my question an idle threat.
3. He was already antagonized when he drove like a maniac into my neighborhood.
4. Reading is fundamental. Hint: sedan.
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08-13-2018, 04:30 PM
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The point has been made about civilians confronting miscreants. I'll just add this similar event that happened about 30 years ago to a family friend. She yelled "Slow down!" to a guy speeding through her quiet suburban neighborhood. He turned around, jumped out of his car and beat her to within an inch of her life. Fortunately, neighbors came out and pulled him off of her, or she would not have survived. She spent weeks in the hospital. He got a long prison term. You never know what kind of lunatic is behind the wheel.
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08-13-2018, 04:33 PM
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"A gentle reply turns away wrath"
You should be grateful-it's been well said above.
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08-13-2018, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elm_creek_smith
The charge for which you are groping is “terroristic threats.” I initially just wanted to tell him he needed to slow down. He turned it into a confrontation.
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Oh--and what was the terroristic threat he made?
When he told you to shoot him? That's not a threat.
BTW, are you leaving out a pertinent detail? I'm
wondering why the kid suddenly told you "shoot
me"--how'd he know you were armed?
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