The real question is, what are you willing to sacrifice to carry a mouse gun?

If the most important thing for you is size and weight, more power to you.

A Glock 43 isn’t that big. Neither is the new Sig P365.

Tried the small 380 guns. It’s like putting a V8 in a go cart.

No thanks.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I'm in the same boat as you.

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

I'll never understand why folks carry FMJ over JHP.

Seriously, modern bullet designs such as the Hornady XTP are capable of penetrating 12" with full expansion in Balistics Gel with 5 layers of heavy denim.

Using FMJ is a liability due to the fact that even in .380 ACP they're going to overpenetrate and thus will most likely cause some form of collateral damage.

^^^Been there seen it. .380 ball is NOT going to cause significant collateral damage after passing through a body. Nearly all of the projectiles energy will have been spent.

Missing the target, on the other hand, causes significant collateral damage. This is often inaccurately categorized as pass throughs to avoid liability in an environment where officers ARE NOT TAUGHT TO AIM.

PS, not saying ball is better than HP, just that pass throughs are not such a liability.

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Certified Curmudgeon

I carry a Bodyguard stoked with Hornady American Gunner ammo with the 90 gr. XTP bullet. Lethal and totally reliable. In a Desantis Nemesis holster, I feel very well armed and comfortable with this tiny carry.

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John

Whether or not a caliber is more fatal than others is not the point.
What matters is whether one or more shots stopped the attack
in a timely manner.
It matters not if the attacker dies immediately, later, or not at all.

The 1910 is an easily carried gun, very slim and easy to conceal. It is very naturally pointable, and good accuracy at 10-12 yards. Never shot at a longer distance. The .25 is a viable backup to a larger caliber.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

" ... a FN Browning Model 1922. This is the same model that arguably started WWI on June 28, 1914. The Bosnian nationalist "fired twice at Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, mortally wounding them." "

Not quite but close. The pistol used was an FN 1910 in .380, the difference being that the 1922 had a longer butt and barrel. No big difference. For many years the pistol used at Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princep was usually referenced as being the FN-Browning M1900 in .32. It wasn't until maybe 20 years ago that the correct gun used was formally recognized as being the M1910. It had been in hiding in a local monastery, and I think it is now on display there, don't remember the details, but easy enough to Google. The Archduke Ferdinand's death car that day was preserved in an Austrian (I think) museum but was destroyed during a bombing in WWII. Princep died in prison after the end of WWI, I think due to TB. TB killed many people back then.

My general unqualified answer is no, the 380 isn't enough. However, if it's all you can shoot or all you have, or all you can carry, then it's better than no gun and substantially better than smaller stuff.

Yes bullet placement generally trumps all, although sometimes the small stuff fails to penetrate. I can think of a center of forehead shot that failed to penetrate.

I'm also not a big fan of a 38 special out of a 2" barrel but I'd sure have to give the nod to a 38 snubbie for reliability. I'm not one of those that claim only revolvers are reliable and semi-autos aren't but I kinda am as applied to small 380s, especially with HPs.

Between my wife and I we own three 380s. They do have their place.

Which is why my wife took my Glock 43 and gave me her Shield 9. The 43 slide is a lot easier to operate. I'm OK with the trade as I like the little Shield as well as the 43 and the slide doesn't bother me. You might consider the 43 for your wife.

Truth!

I carried a PPKS as my backup for a short while during the same period. I carried it in my inside jacket pocket in the winter, safety off, until it fell out when I took my jacket off in the squad room. The room had that ultra cheap thin worn carpet not much more than thin felt. The gun didn't go off but the dent in the primer was substantial. I traded it for my first Dillon and other reloading supplies. I also bought a 669 shortly thereafter but still kept a back pocket AMT 380.

PPKS is a nice well built gun with not the best 1st shot trigger and (unless they changed) a safety that needs to be used, and more than the weight of many quality 9s. I actually like the PPKS but there's just better options now for carry. True, the weight of it does tame some of the blow-back recoil so there's that I guess.

True, but you can find a 32 that's even lighter.
A practical 9mm can't be made as small as the smallest practical 380 although there are now plenty of 9s that are as small as many 380, at least nicer shooting 380s. The point is there are many 9s now days that are so compact that in the vast majority of circumstances they are plenty small enough to be comfortably and concealably carried, negating the justification for carrying the smaller calibers. The 380 is still good for back-ups or jogging, etc.

Because 380s are still notoriously finnicky and hard ball can resolve a good bit of that.

And of course I'm always right!

I’ve also looked at the compact 9MM but all are much heavier than an airweight/titanium J frame and thus difficult to pocket carry w/o a bulge or tell tale sag. For me the small, lightweight J frames are easier to conceal while offering adequate protection against most things a retiree might encounter. I’m not a cop anymore, and have slowed down considerably in my 7th decade.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Was the Archduke and Duchess killed by the lowly 22 round or could you blame their death not only with being shot .. but medical care for both was severely lacking for a positive outcome ..

In todays medical world it would be likely that they would have survived .. Though the death count for a 22 is high but can some be attributed to the medical attention the person received .. I would think many of those would survive today ..

Enough for what? Looking to go bear hunting just stay at home. Enough to stop a threat? Probably

How do you carry your J Frame?

I pocket carry in a well worn Galco leather holster 100%, left front pocket (leftie).

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

How do you deal with drawing from a sitting position, especially behind the wheel?

He was widely misquoted. What he actually said is, "It's nothing I will survive."

.380ACP in the right hands is plenty. Are others better? Sure. But I pocket carry a Kimber Micro Carry .380 regularly, alternating it with a Kimber 9mm in the same configuration, and there isn't a nickel's worth of difference in them, size-wise. I do go with Underwood ammo loaded hot with a Lehigh Defense round, for both calibers, and I feel completely confident that I can handle any CC situation I am likely to encounter.

Here's a pic of the .380 and ammo. The 9mm is exactly like it, just a smidge bigger. Great pocket pistols.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Pretty gun. I assume you took the pics when new. My carry guns get "not new" fairly quickly. If they are the same size why carry the 380? Of course I do have a Springfield Micro 45 that's too pretty to carry. Actually it's too expensive to carry too. One of the few handguns I have that aren't beat to heck from carrying in one capacity or another.

P.S.: My parents were both from the Fayetteville area. Dad was a City fireman there pre WWII. Uncle was a City cop Pre WWII.

The Walther PP Series is best carried with the safety on as it isn't drop safe. Some would say that it takes too long to disengage, but if you practice flipping up the safety lever while drawing the pistol, it makes no notable difference and quickly becomes second nature.

Personally, I don't find the weight of the DA trigger to be detrimental. It requires enough of a pull to be 100% intentional, yet not so heavy that I feel it would slow me down if I needed it.
I'm aware that it's heavier than most .380s and nearly equal to most lighter 9mm pistols, but it makes no difference to me. If I felt that .380 ACP were inadequate, then I would sooner bypass 9mm altogether in favor of a .40 or .45.

Mine has so far been 100% reliable with Hornady American Gunner XTPs. I even tried firing it sideways (to simulate firing from a downed position) in my off hand with an intentionally loose grip while dirty and it still fed two magazines of my carry ammo without a hitch.
Frankly, I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a firearm which couldn't reliably feed JHPs.

From WIKI, the Archduke was killed by a 380 ACP:

"The latter stepped forward and fired two shots from a distance of about one and a half metres (4.9 feet) using a Belgian-made 9×17mm (.380 ACP) Fabrique Nationale model 1910 semi-automatic pistol.[citation needed] Pistol serial numbers 19074, 19075, 19120 and 19126 were supplied to the assassins; Princip used #19074."

I believe the Browning 1910 as also available in 32 acp -- but not in 22.

So one could argue that the 380 ACP has been responsible for more shooting deaths than any other caliber -- given that this one shooting started WWI.

For me it is not so much about the caliber as it is about concealability. All the calibers I use are deadly when used within their specific ranges. The S&W Bodyguard 380 is my go to pocket pistol. I normally wear cargo pants and the Bodyguard fits well in those pants pockets. When I am wearing a heavier shirt or a jacket. I usually carry a Glock 27 in 40 caliber. I also have a Rock Island Armory M1911 CS FDE in 45 caliber. I interchange all of them depending on what I am doing and wearing that day. All good guns, all have their limitations as well as their positives. As long as you are comfortable with the gun and accurate when shooting it. It all should be good.

Jim

I have pistols in most everything except .40. What I carry almost 100% of the time is a .380 now. I'm old, totally aware of my surroundings at all times (at least I think so ha-ha) and can conceivably carry .22LR, .380, 9mm, .38/357 & .45 ACP. But it's so easy to just throw that little 10 oz. LCP in my pants pocket and not worry about being defenseless. My goal is concealability and it's hard to beat. Ammo for that and the S&W EZ (lighter than my 9mm Shield and really accurate) on my belt all the time at home is proven Hornady American Gunner ammo. .380 ACP ammo has come a long way in recent years and that is likely the reason more people than ever carry .380 pistols making the caliber quite popular.

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Webfarmer

I have every confidence with the Beretta .380s that I own to put the shots on target in a dependable manner, and practice quite a bit with this Model 84 and its companion single-stack, the 85. Today's improved ammunition design only increases my faith in this caliber and this platform.

Below is a comparison photo of the Model 84 and a J Frame.

I happen to have a Kel-Tec P-32 as well, which is probably the lightest semi-auto pistol in existence. I can count the number of days of the year when it's actually more practical with the fingers of one hand, such as when I'm wearing a pair of really thin, lightweight shorts during one of our rare summer heat waves. Most of the time though the difference is so inconsequential that the Kahr gets carried instead.

If .380acp were "enough" then our military and LEO's would be using it. As I understand some agencies won't even allow their LEO's to carry .380's. There must be a reason for that.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the .380 as well as most of the guns they are chambered for and I have carried them both past and present. However, I realize their limitations and I have respect for all research and testing by our military & law enforcement who've came to the conclusion that the .380acp was not "enough" for them.

I use a cross draw holster when I'm on the road. Seat belt is not in the way.

.380 isn't much, if any, more soft shooting than a 9mm. I have Lllama steel .380 with a narrow back strap and it hurts to shoot. I have several small nines that are more comfortable to shoot.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I bought a Kahr CM9 with the same "pocket" thought...The difference between it and my Kel-Tec is night and day. The Kahr is a holster gun in my book.

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Because of the metric system?

Great pic. I always admired those Berettas, but never held one. I assumed they were much larger.

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Because of the metric system?

I’ve found the recoil of all my .380 autos to be snappier than my nines, perhaps it’s the lower mass and direct blowback recoil system of my P232 and PPK, but they buck pretty good.

I am with the shot placement crowd. Generally speaking, where you put the bullet is farcmore important than the size.

I'm shopping for a cross draw now for just that reason. Any suggestions?

For OWB, I found the Bianchi Cyclone 111 works well for J-Frame cross draw.

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Vegan by proxy.

Shoot them in the face or the groin.

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Riding, Shooting, and Truth

OK, I've said it before and I'll say it again! A 380 will do the job! In my almost 30 years as a LEO, I've seen a few shootings, actual & after the fact. Most crooks & people for that matter don't give a rats ***** what caliber your using! They just don't want to be shot or confronted with a gun, period! Pull out a gun and I guarantee you ain't nobody gonna ask you "what caliber is that"?

I've seen more so called "mouse guns", i.e. 22, 25, 32 cal. pistols clear out more street corners, bars, house parties, community centers & gymnasiums, than the law allows! And I've yet to find anyone who is willing to take a hit with any of these calibers, let alone a 380!

I carry a 380 often and have no problems doing so!

The question is not whether someone is willing to get shot with anything. People don't even want to be shot with a pellet gun. That is a straw man argument and weak defense of a caliber.

The question is whether .380acp is "enough". In most cases it probably is but not in every case and it just may be the latter that gets you killed someday.

We have videos of all these perps being shot with more powerful calibers multiple times and they don't go down right away. We have more and more cases of adrenaline junkies who don't care if they have a gun in their face, are being shot and are trying to fight with the police and take their guns. The perp may end up dying later after being shot with a .380 but that won't be of any worth to you if he maims or kills you first. I wouldn't want to be facing one of these types with a little pocket .380. In fact, even a 9mm or better handgun caliber may not stop the threat fast enough.

As people become more and more crazy, drugged up and more vile in general asking the question whether .380acp is good enough is not an unreasonable one. I think the .380 is fine to throw in your pocket for a trip to the gas station or as a BUG but I wouldn't want to limit myself to a .380 on a routine basis.

GoodSam, I certainly understand your point and for that matter, no handgun caliber is a true man-stopper! Moreover, I never thought that asking the question of whether 380acp is good enough was an unreasonable question. Any gun Sir, or caliber is better than no gun!

My response was based on my years of street experience as a Cop, in particular a U/C narcotics Officer in the beautiful safe streets of Camden City, NJ. You are correct in that, a "Cracked out or dusted up junkie" may not drop or fall, short of being run over by a car or truck. My response was based on dealing with your average street offender or thug in the hood, looking to get over so to say.

Most thugs and I'll repeat it, most thugs do not want to be shot...period! They want to "get over" and do their dirt as quickly & easily as they possibly can! In most cases, when you pull out a gun, any gun, most folks including thugs, will either freeze and stop dead in their tracks or run like they've never run before and could care less what caliber your using! That to me Sir, is one of the intended purposes of a gun regardless of caliber!

As far as that adrenaline crazed junkie is concern, your just gonna have to run his ***** over or hope that you get a one shot heart stopper!

GoodSam, If I may Sir. One of the things I am trying to point out is that there is a tremendous psychological effect to being confronted with a gun and in most cases it has absolutely nothing to do with caliber!

That's why I noted in previous post that most folks could care less what caliber your using. You've got a gun "The Great Equalizer", which will give most folks a "moment of pause"! I've seen it happen!

The fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do!

I always figure in a self defense situation I might get just one shot at stopping the threat, and I really doubt I will have time to take the perfect shot. If all I had was a 380 I suppose I would be glad I had it, but really I feel better in my mind with something that starts with a 4. Not saying I don't carry a 9mm on occasion but I do prefer a .40 or .45. And no, I wouldn't want shot with even a BB gun either. Who would?

For me personally, the answer is no but that's just my opinion. Bottom line is if that's what you will carry then it sure beats nothing....

@Good Sam, I'm not sure that you're in any position to be calling the actual, first-hand experience of a former LEO a "strawman" especially not after using a textbook example of a strawman argument like, "If .380acp were enough then our military and LEO's would be using it."

Honestly, as if these caliber debates weren't already filled with enough folks who make arguments based on preconceived notions, second-hand anecdotal evidence, and even outright conjecture. It gets downright embarrassing once folks start arguing against those who can actually back up their statements with accounts of their own personal experience based on years of service in the Military/Law Enforcement. So please, unless you actually have your own personal experiences with which to counter the statements of a trained professional whose experience with firearms goes beyond hearsay on the internet, just stop.

Seriously, it's one thing to personally distrust a particular cartridge and/or just feel more confident carrying something more powerful, but to go so far as to assert its arbitrary inferiority, especially once someone with actual first-hand experience to the contrary of said assertions, you're only making a fool of yourself.

Luftwaffe officers were issued 9 Kurz (.380), lots of European police and military officers were issued 7.65 Browning (.32 acp).

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Certified Curmudgeon

I am truly amazed at the mindset of people when it comes to caliber debate. People for some reason tend to focus on caliber size, i.e. 40, 44, 45, 357, 1911, Colt Python, Desert Eagle, etc. which are all fine calibers and guns and will in fact do the job, unless of course you are a crackhead or drugged up!

If you are the BG, crook, aggressor or what ever you want to call it, being confronted with a gun is going to change the dynamic of that encounter. In most cases, the BG is going to transition from an offensive posture or position to a defensive position due to the fact that you the victim now have equalized the situation or playing field with a gun. And I can assure you that the BG ain't thinking about what caliber your using, he now knows that you have a gun equal to what he has! His mindset is gun, not caliber!

Most BG's are banking on the fact that the average person is unarmed and has no defensive weapons equal to their gun or what they have which puts them at an advantage.

Ill say it again, the fact that you can pull out a gun, (regardless of caliber), gives you the advantage or upper hand in most cases which is a lot more than what most people on the street can do! And most crooks are not banking on you being armed!

I'll end my argument with carry a gun, whatever you have, regardless of it's caliber!

Joe, I understand your argument, and certainly the larger the caliber, the better the chance a single shot would successfully defend you. If you "might" only get one shot, choosing a larger caliber makes sense. But here's where I begin to disagree with you, just a little. When I train, I try to put multiple shots into a small area as quickly as possible. In other words, in the extremely unlikely event I, as a civilian who doesn't seek out dangerous places or situations, would need to shoot in self-defense in the first place, I have to plan to make that self-defense as lethal as possible. I'm not going to shoot otherwise. I think my odds of only getting one shot are not very high, because if I can get one off, I can get two, three, four, five, six, or seven the way I plan to be pulling the trigger. I have to plan to shoot until the threat is stopped. So I think the .380 I carry and the ammo I choose are reasonable choices, and .380 is, to answer the OP's question, "enough." So is anything larger, and maybe even a couple of the smaller ones. I'm limited by the size of what I pocket carry; otherwise, I could holster carry something larger and more uncomfortable, but I certainly don't fault anyone who chooses bigger and can carry it effectively.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Some are trying awfully hard to convince others that the 380 is enough. And yet others that argue against it.

Why bother? Do you really think you’re going to change anyone’s mind? What do you care what caliber someone carries?

Each of us need to work out our own salvation. And live or die by it.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Well said Kanewpadle, well said!

Funny, the actual LEO whose comments I replied to that offended you so much was far more civil and more in agreement with me then you are. He didn't order me to "stop posting" like you did.

And how, pray tell, do you presume to know how experienced I am or expect someone newer to the forum to assume that everyone here, people with fake names who they don't know personally are all bonafied experts, Mr. Dirty Harry Callahan? Simply being an LEO doesn't make one an automatic expert in everything although I've no doubt that some here are very knowledgeable and I do have the utmost respect for them.

And why should we just discard years of research and knowledge by the real experts, guys with real names like Massad Ayoob and police and military organizations with unlimited budgets in favor of unknown guys on forums who are now telling everyone that it doesn't really matter, ANY gun or caliber is just fine?

Times change and people change. The thugs are getting more and more emboldened, vicious and crazy. The old guns that used to work against them aren't working as well anymore and the bad guys are armed to the teeth, that's why the military/police are using high-cap full and compact sized semi-autos and only carry J-Frames and/or .380's as BUGs if they're even allowed to carry .380's at all (many are not).

The facts are that serious organizations like the military and police don't carry or issue .380's. Most long time experts like Mas Ayoob don't have much use for the .380 either or, at best, regard it as the absolute bare minimum for a defensive caliber. There are reasons for this. It's not a matter of opinion but of science based on reliability and real world usage. This isn't a joke. We are not talking about cars or audio equipment here. Peoples lives may be on the line. I think it's a bit dishonest to suggest to everyone that the .380 by itself is just fine when in fact, it may not be the best or smartest choice for everyone.

Sometimes department weapons policy is influenced by, for example, the lower cost and higher variety of choices to be had in 9mm ammo and guns compared to .380 ACP.
Politics, and ignorance about firearms and ammo by administrators can come into play as well.

I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's. It's possible it may have seen limited issue for airline pilots or something oddball like that but this would be a rare exception. It did see widespread use in European and other countries but their populace were largely unarmed and no where near as vicious as American thugs.

The .380acp has been around since before the 1911 came along yet in all that time our military/police are still not issuing it to this day. This fact cannot be ignored and it begs the question "why?"

Fortunately, it is no mystery to those who work in those fields and have done the research and studies. It's only a mystery to civilians on gun forums who either can't or won't carry something larger or spend more money on a bigger and better gun.

What you continue to fail to understand is that caliber selection is a personal choice. It may not matter what cops or the military use.

Opinions about caliber whether or not they are so called expert opinions are just that. Only a fool selects a caliber solely based on someone else’s opinion.

To continue on your soap box is a waste of time.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Of course I understand that it's a personal choice. It's all about the individual in America, I get it. "It's what works for me" is the mantra of every arm chair forum commando who never actually had to use their guns in combat or self defense. But there are others who have and they have something to teach us. I choose to listen to them and most don't have any high praise for the .380.

You say only a fool selects a caliber based on someone else’s opinion? How so? Do you think that ballistics is all a matter of opinion? You think that someone basing their ammo choice in order to best save their lives and/or the lives of their loved ones on what experts in the field are recommending and using is a fool? Are you serious?

And it most certainly does matter what our military and law enforcement are using because most of them don't have a "personal choice" in the matter. They have guidelines to follow and have to carry the approved guns/ammo which, coincidentally are not .380's. There is a reason for this and it isn't budget constraints or a lack of knowledge about firearms from higher ups, it's because they just don't work all that well and/or are not as reliable as other, more larger calibers. This is not a matter of opinion but of ballistics, science and street/battlefield credibility.

.380 load (Calling Erich)

Here is a very detailed and informative thread on this topic

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Retired Career Security Guard