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  #101  
Old 09-01-2018, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodSam View Post
Of course I understand that it's a personal choice. It's all about the individual in America, I get it. "It's what works for me" is the mantra of every arm chair forum commando who never actually had to use their guns in combat or self defense. But there are others who have and they have something to teach us.

You say only a fool selects a caliber based on someone elseís opinion? How so? Do you think that ballistics is all a matter of opinion? You think that someone basing their ammo choice in order to best save their lives and/or the lives of their loved ones on what experts in the field are recommending and using is a fool? Are you serious?

And it most certainly does matter what our military and law enforcement are using because most of them don't have a "personal choice" in the matter. They have guidelines to follow and have to carry the approved guns/ammo which, coincidentally are not .380's. There is a reason for this and it isn't budget constraints or a lack of knowledge about firearms from higher ups, it's because they just don't work all that well and/or are not as reliable as other, more larger calibers. This is not a matter of opinion but of ballistics, science and street/battlefield credibility.
Youíre missing the point. Youíre telling us what we already know. Preaching to the choir.

The OP asked if the 380 is enough. It is extremely obvious that you donít think so.

State your case and move on.
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  #102  
Old 09-01-2018, 11:43 PM
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You’re missing the point. You’re telling us what we already know. Preaching to the choir.

The OP asked if the 380 is enough. It is extremely obvious that you don’t think so.

State your case and move on.
LOL, well you could have let him have the last say/post and let it die. It works both ways. Personally I've been done with the "argument" but I couldn't pass up something so obvious. I'll fade away again now.
Or I could go to the other thread and bash 38 special J frames snubbies as primary carry guns. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

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  #103  
Old 09-01-2018, 11:45 PM
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LOL, well you could have let him have the last say/post and let it die. It works both ways. Personally I've been done with the "argument" but I couldn't pass up something so obvious. I'll fade away again now
So...... three is a party?
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  #104  
Old 09-01-2018, 11:59 PM
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The .380acp has been around since before the 1911 came along yet in all that time our military/police are still not issuing it to this day. This fact cannot be ignored and it begs the question "why?"
Ignoring plainclothes and BUGs, police duty weapons are full-size to "compact", where the advantages of a .380 are somewhat lost. Ironically, plainclothes guys have carried .380s (and still do, I'm sure), and plenty of BUGs are chambered in .380. Not that what the police or military carry has anything at all to do with what a citizen should carry, because their missions are entirely different. Do you wear a kevlar helmet and plate carrier, festooned with batons, spare mags, flashlights, and so on? Huh! I guess you don't necessarily want what the "pros" use!

But whatever. The entire "police and military use X" argument is empty, hollow, and originated by feckless instructors who want to use the two years they spent fixing radios in Turkey to sell classes. It's perpetuated by everybody else that feels their 18-shot .357 Sig Blastomatic 9000 somehow means **** won't stick to them. Protip: bad stuff still happens, and people that deserve to live still die.

Is .380 enough? Sure. It's a gun, and bullets still come out the end. It still stops people, and kills people. .22 Mag is enough, and .22LR is enough, and 9mm is enough, and .38 and .44 and .45 are all enough. You can lug around more gun, and it might make a difference, or it might not.

If you do not believe a particular cartridge is enough, I encourage you to take the Two Shot Challenge. Next time at the range, bring one of those "not enough" guns, stand in front of the backstop (safety first!), and have a buddy put one in your gut.

If you feel like asking him to shoot you again, well, guess you're right. It wasn't enough. Here's a cookie.

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  #105  
Old 09-02-2018, 01:40 AM
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I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's...
The NYPD issued officers engaged in undercover Narcotics purchasing .32 caliber Berettas.
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  #106  
Old 09-02-2018, 10:59 AM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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Ignoring plainclothes and BUGs, police duty weapons are full-size to "compact", where the advantages of a .380 are somewhat lost. Ironically, plainclothes guys have carried .380s (and still do, I'm sure), and plenty of BUGs are chambered in .380. Not that what the police or military carry has anything at all to do with what a citizen should carry, because their missions are entirely different. Do you wear a kevlar helmet and plate carrier, festooned with batons, spare mags, flashlights, and so on? Huh! I guess you don't necessarily want what the "pros" use!

But whatever. The entire "police and military use X" argument is empty, hollow, and originated by feckless instructors who want to use the two years they spent fixing radios in Turkey to sell classes. It's perpetuated by everybody else that feels their 18-shot .357 Sig Blastomatic 9000 somehow means **** won't stick to them. Protip: bad stuff still happens, and people that deserve to live still die.

Is .380 enough? Sure. It's a gun, and bullets still come out the end. It still stops people, and kills people. .22 Mag is enough, and .22LR is enough, and 9mm is enough, and .38 and .44 and .45 are all enough. You can lug around more gun, and it might make a difference, or it might not.

If you do not believe a particular cartridge is enough, I encourage you to take the Two Shot Challenge. Next time at the range, bring one of those "not enough" guns, stand in front of the backstop (safety first!), and have a buddy put one in your gut.

If you feel like asking him to shoot you again, well, guess you're right. It wasn't enough. Here's a cookie.
Save your breath, I can already tell that he's one of those guys who is just going to regurgitate a line about how nobody wants to get shot, only to contradict that statement by saying that anyone under the influence of narcotics has absolutely no problem being shot at because apparently druggies are fearless.

Dunno if anyone else here has had the displeasure of being acquainted with folks who do drugs, but I for one have not only been acquainted with, but also unfortunately worked with and even had relatives who were on a variety of drugs ranging from prescription pain medication to crack-cocaine, and strangely none of them were fearless in the least, but much to the contrary either jumpy to say the least or otherwise completely paranoid/excessively fearful for their own personal safety. Neither seem like the sort to stand their ground if a firearm were to be produced, much less go asking for seconds after being shot.

Heck, my experience with most thugs in general is that they would rather avoid anybody who would put up even the slightest bit of resistance in favor of those who will readily give into their demands without hesitation for a quick, easy, hassle-free score. These guys aren't willing to get bruised, much less shot. So the 7ft/300lb+ meth head who took sustained small arms fire and kept on coming until completely incapacitated/killed makes headlines because it's such an extraordinary occurrence that it is worthy of making the news, not because it's a common, everyday occurrence as some folks seem to believe.

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Old 09-02-2018, 12:44 PM
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I know I said in my last post #91 that it would be my last. However, there's a line in Dirty Harry Callahan's post that's too funny.

Heck, if you've got a 7ft/300+ lb meth head coming at you, there's probably no need to even shoot him because at that size, you could probably out run him!

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  #108  
Old 09-02-2018, 02:53 PM
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Save your breath, I can already tell that he's one of those guys who is just going to regurgitate a line about how nobody wants to get shot, only to contradict that statement by saying that anyone under the influence of narcotics has absolutely no problem being shot at because apparently druggies are fearless.

Dunno if anyone else here has had the displeasure of being acquainted with folks who do drugs, but I for one have not only been acquainted with, but also unfortunately worked with and even had relatives who were on a variety of drugs ranging from prescription pain medication to crack-cocaine, and strangely none of them were fearless in the least, but much to the contrary either jumpy to say the least or otherwise completely paranoid/excessively fearful for their own personal safety. Neither seem like the sort to stand their ground if a firearm were to be produced, much less go asking for seconds after being shot.

Heck, my experience with most thugs in general is that they would rather avoid anybody who would put up even the slightest bit of resistance in favor of those who will readily give into their demands without hesitation for a quick, easy, hassle-free score. These guys aren't willing to get bruised, much less shot. So the 7ft/300lb+ meth head who took sustained small arms fire and kept on coming until completely incapacitated/killed makes headlines because it's such an extraordinary occurrence that it is worthy of making the news, not because it's a common, everyday occurrence as some folks seem to believe.
I'm done with the caliber debate but that post just doesn't seem valid to me as a general statement. Largely it is true much or even most of the time but not with enough certainty to assure or imply to others that no real danger exists.

I have dealt with drug addled ne'er-do-wells many times. Frequently this is combined with some mental illness either caused by drug use, having led to the drug use or even unrelated to drug use. But the combo isn't good.

And there are some people that seem to me to just be evil or even demon possessed but they may also be considered insane/mentally ill. I don't know. But some do seem immune to pain and fear, although it could be that their fear is just displaced. Again, I don't know.

Fortunately in none of my encounters with such people were they armed with guns and mostly not armed at all. And in most cases I had the benefit of assistance when I personally went hands on. And I'll also add that electronic control devices aren't totally reliable in these cases, especially when implementation is restricted to current standards, although sometimes they work exceptionally well. And I am aware of some horrible crimes by these apparently soulless people.

I've wondered numerous times at the average citizen that bebops through life unaware of the crazed, evil and/or totally drug addled people that live among us, relying on the "thin blue line" that's usually a reactionary presence responding after the fact. Not realizing that their lack of contact with such evil (whether in fact or appearance) is just a matter of luck and odds. Fortunately the odds are that most will pass through this life without violent encounters with such people. However, news reports might lead you to believe the percentage of the "bad" people is increasing. Not to mention the nut job mass shooters and actual terrorists.

No reflection on veterans and I think they make the best cops but I know of some instances where combat vets were very unstable, probably clinically insane, on drugs (often unprescribed street type) and or alcohol and in possession of firearms. Had they been confronted by an armed citizen or police while in that condition they would likely have gone on offense and the surprised "victim" probably wouldn't have had a clue what shlt storm was about to hit. I've delivered more than one, that was ready for help, to the V.A. hospital. Those guys deserve our support and love especially those with serious potentially scary problems. I could start giving more personal examples here but I think not.

Train and carry with whatever you want. If competent with it, it's better than nothing, whatever it is. If incompetent, you're better off without.
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  #109  
Old 09-02-2018, 06:04 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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I am aware that there are individuals out there who for whatever reason can withstand an abnormal physical trauma before going down.
However, such individuals are an exception to the rule, and in most cases nothing short of a direct hit to a vital structure is going to stop a determined attacker. Any difference in power/size is between handgun cartridges most likely isn't going to make a difference because the theory of hydrostatic shock is based on a phenomenon observed based on rifle cartridges which launch projectiles traveling at velocities way above the average handgun cartridges, and minor size differences between handgun calibers is unlikely to make enough of a difference to count because any miss with a 9mm projectile would only result in a clipping hit with a .40 or .45.

Furthermore, I personally feel that there is a point in which preparation for a perceived occurrence begins to exceed the margins of practicality, and for me preparing for a chance encounter with a human being who is so extremely hostile that he cannot be dissuaded by being shot for any number of reasons has surpassed that margin. To me, carrying a firearm chambered in a more powerful cartridge in preparation of such a person is like doing the exact same thing on the off chance that a Gorilla escapes from the zoo and attacks you.
If it makes you feel more comfortable to carry something more powerful than .380 ACP, then that's your prerogative, but don't go trying to convince others that they're being foolish because in an extremely specific and highly unlikely scenario .380 ACP might not be sufficient.

Lastly, I would presume that when/if faced with a supernatural entity driven by its own purely evil nature to do harm who cannot feel pain or be stopped by sustained fire from a .380 pistol is most likely equally resistant to other handgun cartridges. I'm not making fun of you here either, merely pointing out a flaw in the reasoning that a supernatural entity who is all but impervious to physical damage from a .380 pistol would succumb more readily to a more powerful cartridge. In which case, (and again, I'm being completely straight with you here) you would honestly be better off carrying an object of spiritual significance than placing your faith in a man-made firearm which was designed for use against humans or animals rather than demonic spirits. Even assuming that there is a set of rules unbeknownst to us mortals in which a demon is no longer capable of maintaining control over a host which has suffered fatal injuries, a shot to a vital structure with a .380 ought to be sufficient.

That all being said, I fully respect your opinions and feelings on carry, little as I may agree with them, and I am impressed by your willingness to openly discuss the possibility of an encounter with a supernatural foe, all I ask is that in return you grant me/everyone else here the same courtesy.
You have said enough and your opinion on the matter has been noted, now just let it be, grant others the freedom to decide for themselves, for better or worse, that which they will carry for self-defense.

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  #110  
Old 09-02-2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dutchboy901 View Post
I know I said in my last post #91 that it would be my last. However, there's a line in Dirty Harry Callahan's post that's too funny.

Heck, if you've got a 7ft/300+ lb meth head coming at you, there's probably no need to even shoot him because at that size, you could probably out run him!
Yankee Marshall used that line in his "Is 380 Adequate for Self-Defense" video.

yankee marshall ,380 - Bing video
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Old 09-02-2018, 06:51 PM
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I'm being completely straight with you here) you would honestly be better off carrying an object of spiritual significance than placing your faith in a man-made firearm which was designed for use against humans or animals rather than demonic spirits.
I think it's fair to say that you took that part of my comment a little far. I was just saying that the total lack of moral compass in some people (extreme sociopath if you prefer) is amazing and darn near beyond comprehension. Call it what you want. Throughout history I think it was generally considered evil. It doesn't really seem curable. But whatever. I'm confident you knew exactly what I meant. It was a minor part of my post. Your choice was to advance your argument by attempting to ridicule. Have at it, my skin is thick. I've been inoculated long ago.

Carry whatever you want or don't carry at all. As I said, I'm not arguing caliber or whatever. I just want to counter the argument that everything is pink daisies and unicorn farts. Or that anything else is inconceivably unlikely.
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Old 09-02-2018, 07:14 PM
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Just keep pulling the trigger until the threat is neutralized. If that didn't work, that's what reloads are for! MHO. I sure doknow that I don't want 7 or 13 .380s in me.
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  #113  
Old 09-02-2018, 07:20 PM
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Iíd like to see the average shooter do that with a mouse gun. How many of those are going to be hits and misses? Where do the misses go?
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Old 09-02-2018, 07:25 PM
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Old 09-02-2018, 07:43 PM
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I like a handgun to be....well handy.

The 9mm Short is on the low end of my list.

So, I choose the largest practical caliber available, i.e. 44 or 45 caliber.

If I were expecting trouble, I'd carry a rifle.


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Old 09-02-2018, 08:01 PM
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Yankee Marshall used that line in his "Is 380 Adequate for Self-Defense" video.

yankee marshall ,380 - Bing video
That's where I got it from because it makes sense & it was funny!!!

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Old 09-02-2018, 08:06 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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I think it's fair to say that you took that part of my comment a little far. I was just saying that the total lack of moral compass in some people (extreme sociopath if you prefer) is amazing and darn near beyond comprehension. Call it what you want. Throughout history I think it was generally considered evil. It doesn't really seem curable. But whatever. I'm confident you knew exactly what I meant. It was a minor part of my post. Your choice was to advance your argument by attempting to ridicule. Have at it, my skin is thick. I've been inoculated long ago.

Carry whatever you want or don't carry at all. As I said, I'm not arguing caliber or whatever. I just want to counter the argument that everything is pink daisies and unicorn farts. Or that anything else is inconceivably unlikely.
Believe it or not, I was being 100% serious, not attempting to ridicule you, merely responding to a statement which I had mistaken as literal. People have all sorts of spiritual beliefs and I honestly thought that your interpretation of those who don't fear death and will continue aggression past the point of being shot was that at least some percentage of them are literally possessed.

Seriously, it's the internet. Folks have made far less tangible statements in regards to firearms, and being a man of faith myself, the concept of literal demonic possession is one which I am familiar with, nor would I presume to hypocritically question.
People are most certainly capable of acts of cruelty so unthinkable that the word "evil" is indeed an apt description, and thus I would just as soon (if not sooner) accept that they are literally possessed by demons as I would any other attempt at rationalizing their monstrous tendencies.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:19 PM
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Iíd like to see the average shooter do that with a mouse gun. How many of those are going to be hits and misses? Where do the misses go?
Considering all of those are going to be 10' or less, I am reasonably confident all of them will be in the perps body. I've shot people under considerable stress, and do know how to do it!
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:28 PM
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Believe it or not, I was being 100% serious, not attempting to ridicule you, merely responding to a statement which I had mistaken as literal. People have all sorts of spiritual beliefs and I honestly thought that your interpretation of those who don't fear death and will continue aggression past the point of being shot was that at least some percentage of them are literally possessed.

Seriously, it's the internet. Folks have made far less tangible statements in regards to firearms, and being a man of faith myself, the concept of literal demonic possession is one which I am familiar with, nor would I presume to hypocritically question.
People are most certainly capable of acts of cruelty so unthinkable that the word "evil" is indeed an apt description, and thus I would just as soon (if not sooner) accept that they are literally possessed by demons as I would any other attempt at rationalizing their monstrous tendencies.

Sorry for the confusion.
You made a large issue in your response about a minor point used for illustration. On the other hand, I am a Bible believer and take it mostly literally, at least the parts I think were intended literally. Of course my interpretation is my interpretation and I suspect I'm wrong a place or two, not including the parts I just plain don't understand.

The Bible mentions demons and possession but aside from something from Ghost Busters, etc. I'll assume I'm mainly dealing with the physical world and react accordingly. Well, in some situations I might throw in a prayer or two, given the opportunity.

No problem on the confusion.

---------------------------------------------

Temporarily back to how much is enough. It occurs to me that there have been several terrorist incidents with local connections, starting with 911 and including the Orlando night club thing, although none of the incidents actually occurred locally.

I agree with those retired LEOs that plan to remain uninvolved other than in matters affecting their own friends and family,....but I agree only to a point.

I'll stick with a minimum (local walks excluded) of 9mm with reasonable capacity or .357. But the problem with a revolver is reloading speed unless you're carrying a couple of speedloaders on your belt. But who does that for EDC? Too bad because I really do prefer revolvers personally, but you can't stop progress I guess. And the revolver vs semi-auto reliability debate went out the window with Glock, square and ugly though they are.

By the way, I've owned and carried 380s for years starting with the PPKS (Manurhin) AMT Back-UP (ver. 1&2) Kel-tec P3AT (P32 first) Ruger and Smith. They're great for back up or when carrying something else simply isn't practical. I just guess my "practical" differs from yours and others. I simply don't find any difficulty at all carrying one of the newer breed of thin 9s and a couple of extra mags (sans grip extension). But I'll often carry more gun.

But I said I was done with the caliber/gun debate. Apparently I lied so just ignore the above. Go 380!
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:40 PM
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Considering all of those are going to be 10' or less, I am reasonably confident all of them will be in the perps body. I've shot people under considerable stress, and do know how to do it!
You are not the average shooter.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:09 PM
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Right now I'm carrying both a 9mm and a .380. I see the .380 as my backup, but no way would I carry it even as a backup if I didn't feel it could defend.

I have a .32 acp and some .32 S&WL revolvers, but I probably wouldn't use them as a backup when I have better choices. And of course, the few .25 acp's I own, even more so. But I wouldn't hesitate to carry them if they were all I had. Even the .25's.

My point is, most of us who carry handguns for protection are arming ourselves against largely unknown threats, and therefore, we have to deal with likelihoods and probabilities. In the Montana wilderness, it's simpler because you have a clearer idea of what your likely threat is...so you carry a .41 Blackhawk or larger. In a place like Kansas City, though, a .41 BH just isn't going to make sense, just like a .380 won't make sense in rural Montana. Of course, if you have Vegas shooter scenario, neither of those guns will work, so what can I say?

I think the commonly stated issue with .380's is that some HP bullets won't go deep enough or won't expand if they encounter relatively tough material, while fmj's won't expand and might even over-penetrate if an attacker is wearing light clothing. I have lehigh Xtreme rounds in my LCP because they don't have to expand to do damage.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:20 PM
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Well, I've read all of these. What's missing?__and this will fit the average__
__ What's missing? And this can't be taught! "The will to meet and destroy your enemy in hand to hand combat" The spirit of the bayonet from an old Marine Corps Manual. Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!
I had the will____ I still have it. Now, think, what would you really do? It's not kids playing guns out there.
If__"I'm not sure, actually." You don't.
Who was it that said, "Just because you own a violin doesn't make you a musician" ?
Hope I haven't destroyed anyone's evening.
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:57 AM
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Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!

Well that's less than reassuring. I hope you told them so.

I used to carry a .380 and defended the caliber at great length but not because I liked the round, but because I liked the weapon itself. That was not a good reason and I no longer have that weapon nor do I defend the round for self defense.

My minimum defensive caliber now is .38 Special.
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Old 09-08-2018, 12:50 PM
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A biographical article in the NRA magazine stated that Sargent York carried a 32 acp after leaving the service.

"Andrew tells of how his father was able to shoot doves on the wing using a Winchester Model 74 .22 autoloading rifle—another of his favorite guns. During my visit with the York family, I also was able to view a Winchester Model 92 in .25-20 Win., as well as a .32 ACP CZ Model 24 semi-automatic pistol. The former was presumably used for larger game such as deer and hogs, while the latter, according to Andrew, was carried by York occasionally for self-protection. He has no idea where the CZ came from."

American Rifleman | Sgt. York: American Rifleman, American Hero

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Old 09-08-2018, 01:58 PM
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My father, a decorated WWII vet, idolized Sgt York. When I was small we went out of our way to visit him while on family vacation. Only my father went up to the house while we waited in the car. He paid his respects to Grace but he didn't see Sgt. York. Yeah, it was that easy to go up to the house. I don't think too many visitors was an issue, at least at that time. I thought I remembered that he didn't see him as York had passed but after looking him up on Wikipedia it's more likely he was hospitalized at the time. Apparently Grace was very gracious and seemed to appreciate hearing from someone who adored and idolized her husband. I didn't realize at the time what a big deal York was. He sure was a big deal to my Dad.

Unfortunately when I think of Sgt. York I don't visualize him but I see Gary Cooper in my mind.

Whatever gun he carried I'm sure shot placement wouldn't have been an issue.
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Old 09-09-2018, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
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My father, a decorated WWII vet, idolized Sgt York. When I was small we went out of our way to visit him while on family vacation. Only my father went up to the house while we waited in the car. He paid his respects to Grace but he didn't see Sgt. York. Yeah, it was that easy to go up to the house. I don't think too many visitors was an issue, at least at that time. I thought I remembered that he didn't see him as York had passed but after looking him up on Wikipedia it's more likely he was hospitalized at the time. Apparently Grace was very gracious and seemed to appreciate hearing from someone who adored and idolized her husband. I didn't realize at the time what a big deal York was. He sure was a big deal to my Dad.

Unfortunately when I think of Sgt. York I don't visualize him but I see Gary Cooper in my mind.

Whatever gun he carried I'm sure shot placement wouldn't have been an issue.
thanks for sharing a great story. all of my acquaintances and family members of the greatest generation are gone now. life is a little less bright.
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Old 09-09-2018, 02:12 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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Originally Posted by Runs With Gun View Post
Unfortunately, I've known a couple of cops on my department__who actually said there's no situations where they'd shoot some one!

Well that's less than reassuring. I hope you told them so.

I used to carry a .380 and defended the caliber at great length but not because I liked the round, but because I liked the weapon itself. That was not a good reason and I no longer have that weapon nor do I defend the round for self defense.

My minimum defensive caliber now is .38 Special.
I take it you're referring to .38 Special +P, otherwise I'm afraid I have some bad news... .38 Special Standard Pressure and .380 ACP are roughly equal in terms of performance in modern self-defense loads, both deliver ~200ft-lbs of energy and penetrate to about the same depth, the only difference is that .38 Special bullets tend to be a bit heavier/slower than .380 ACP.

So yeah, if you think .380 ACP is insufficient for self-defense and are carrying Standard Pressure .38 Special, then you should start carrying +Ps immediately because what you're carrying is no better than .380 ACP in reality.
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Old 09-09-2018, 02:21 PM
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I have carefully avoided this string because I was pretty sure it would be more of a urinating contest than anything else. The first thing to remember is that pistol rounds suck. It is to be predicted that more often than not, if someone has to be shot to stop them, the victim will have to shoot the offender a bunch. It's a physiological reality. Take a look at the book by Urey Patrick and John Hall that I have cited multiple times, particularly Chapter 4. Look into the writings of Doc Roberts, intellectual heir of Dr. Fackler. There is a new book by Agent Morales about his experiences in the shootout near Miami in 1986 that has some really good points, too. I need to get a copy -only read a review with excerpts. This stuff is not news.

The second thing to remember is that a pistol is what one carries if they have no particular reason to expect to encounter a problem to which a firearm is an appropriate answer. If one has such reason - the first choice is to do something else, somewhere else. If that can't be arranged, like one is a cop - anyone who does not take a long gun (a rifle, or a shotgun with slugs) is not very smart and not paying enough attention to their own well-being.

What one chooses for a platform has to take into account a lot of things. How important it is to not be perceived/detected as being armed; physical capability to handle a certain configuration of firearm, from hand size to hand/arm strength, and others. Same with caliber. If one has arthritis, it may be necessary to use a platform/caliber that is not as potentially satisfactory as a standard service round. Remember that objective testing has shown very little actual difference in performance for the typical service rounds (9mm/.40/.357Sig/45ACP, the rounds for which we have the most test data) with modern ammo. The same is likely true for controllable big bore revolvers (41/44/45).

If the best one can do because of factors relevant to them (I saw a 70 YO small none too spritely woman at a class who did darned well with a 9mm M&P, but she is an outlier and will never perform like a 25 YO SOCOM E6) is a.22 or .380 - then that's the best they can do. Sub-optimal for sure, but WAY better than strong language and prayers, and certainly better than taking it like a prisoner. My wife is kinda small, and has among other issues bad back. I doubt she will ever do well with anything bigger than a .380. Oh well.
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Old 09-09-2018, 10:10 PM
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Well said. I personally feel the 380 is a little less than optimal, but that's assuming other options are reasonably feasible and you can shoot it competently. If not, carry what works for you. I think that's sorta what you said.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
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There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.
Totally agree!

I honestly don't think there is a big difference between .22 and .45, including everything in between, at least as far as the cartridge's termial ballistics is concerned. The big difference is in the platform. Can you hit what you aim at? That may be the only thing that really matters.

.380 is plenty if you can put the lotion in the basket.
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:08 AM
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With the pocket 9s that are available, I don't see a reason to carry a 380 unless you're recoil sensitive.
Cost of ammo enters into it as well, 9's cheaper. 380 still costs an arm and a leg, at least around here.

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Old 09-11-2018, 08:34 AM
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Yes, it’s enough, just as those maligned “plastic” guns are enough. Anyone volunteering to be shot with a 380 or “plastic” gun?...............................

I rest my case.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:55 AM
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I have a mechanically perfect 1908 Colt Pocket model. I really wish daughter didn't like it as well as I do. Perhaps she would allow me to have it back.

Modern ammo makes them better than the 1930s versions. Nothing is flatter or easier to conceal. You would think she would trade for a Model 60, but no. Her sister is perfectly happy with a 60. I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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I'm solidly in the. 380 is sufficient for most purposes camp. My Sig232 and Baretta 84 Cheetah are easy to conceal, sufficiently accurate and with modern hollow points reduce the worry of overpenetration.
In talking with my LEO friends, most perps really aren't interested in getting shot- particularly more than once. 7+1 or 13+1 .380 will ruin anyone's day. A miss with a .44 is still a miss.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:03 PM
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I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack
Or S&W Shield 380EZ. It has great reviews

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Old 09-11-2018, 01:43 PM
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I'm solidly in the. 380 is sufficient for most purposes camp. My Sig232 and Baretta 84 Cheetah are easy to conceal, sufficiently accurate and with modern hollow points reduce the worry of overpenetration.
In talking with my LEO friends, most perps really aren't interested in getting shot- particularly more than once. 7+1 or 13+1 .380 will ruin anyone's day. A miss with a .44 is still a miss.
How does the Beretta 84 shoot compared to your Sig P232?
Also, does the 84 have a removable front sight?
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:00 PM
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[QUOTE=Capn;140164015]...Can you hit what you aim at? That may be the only thing that really matters...
[/QUOTE]

That and:

Does it ALWAYS go bang.
It it ALWAYS on your person.
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Old 09-11-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
How does the Beretta 84 shoot compared to your Sig P232?
Also, does the 84 have a removable front sight?
I like the 232 better. I think it has better ergonomics. The Cheetah has a long trigger pull compared to the 232 which feels a little awkward.
My 84 has a non removable front sight.

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Old 09-11-2018, 07:59 PM
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I guess I'm going to have to go Glock 42 as an alternative.

Jack
Although I think she's a philistine, my daughter loves hers.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:03 PM
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I can generally agree with that statement but there has never been one time in history, at least here in America, where our LEO or military used or were issued .380's.
Never one time, huh? Guess I was mistaken about those Colt Gov't .380s the Wyoming Department of Criminal Investigation issued in the 80s. They must have been .45 Commanders that were left in the dryer too long. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:32 PM
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You over-compensators with your .380s.

Real men carry .32s.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:20 PM
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is the .380 adequate?
short answer: yes
long answer: hell yes
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
Watch some of the crime shows on TV like "The First 48" and you will
surely think the .380 is enough. There are many people laid to rest with
the little .380 on a regular basis here in the US. I carry a Ruger LCP
most of the time any more because it's handy and I avoid risky places.
Yes. The .380 will surely kill someone. But that's really not the main point. The real concern is, in most cases, will the .380 quickly and reliably incapacitate your assailant before he can incapacitate you? Baring a head shot, will a couple/few slugs from a .380 prevent a large armed man from finishing his attack on you? There have been recorded instances when 5, 158 gr. SWCHP .357 magnums to the center of mass, have not taken the fight out of a large assailant. (Often a matter of shot placement.) I carried an Astra Garcia .380 for a few years, back in the day. I figured it was compact and highly concealable and was much better than nothing. But I didn't know then, what I know now. Now, what I have come to understand is, it is shot placement and rapid blood loss that counts. The bigger the hole the more blood loss. And more more power = better bone penetration.

IMO, the .380 just doesn't pack the potatoes needed for reliable and consistent disabling of a large, hyped-up or intoxicated/druged-up assailant (or other worse case scenario). I believe the .380 has it's place -- especially if you are up close and can place your shots with precision. But for general personal defense, I'll take something bigger and hotter.

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Old 09-12-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
How does the Beretta 84 shoot compared to your Sig P232?
Also, does the 84 have a removable front sight?
A better comparison would be between the Sig 232 and the single-stack Beretta 85. I really like my Beretta 85 as my Sig tends to give me slide bite in a big way.

This is an excellent comparison between these two .380s by the late Stephen Camp (whose writings you should be familiar with if you aren't already):

hi-powers--handguns: SIG-Sauer P232 vs. Beretta Model 85 F Cheetah...
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Guevera View Post
A better comparison would be between the Sig 232 and the single-stack Beretta 85. I really like my Beretta 85 as my Sig tends to give me slide bite in a big way.
Lol. My other daughter, who also carries a 232, calls it "Sig Bite". A slight grip correction fixes that.


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Old 09-12-2018, 10:59 AM
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Most self defense shooting occur within 10 FEET.

Exactly how much power and penetration is limited by 380 versus 9mm in the real world? Some would argue given the close distance most SD shootings occur, that OVER penetration is a concern and hitting innocent bystanders or other property damage as a result. And that assumes a hit. A clean miss will bring on a whole different level of risk of what is beyond the intended target.

Personally I carry 9mm. But I would have no issue with 380 or 38 special.

My concern with 380’s is I have seen so many malfunctions with them. Mostly I think due to the small size of the pistol. The larger 380s seem to be more reliable, but at that point they are basically same size of reliable 9mm such as the shield 9mm.

Personally if I want to go small pocket gun. My choice will be a J-frame snubbie. 642, LCR or the like rather than the 380 semi auto.

Just my experience and my choice.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:38 AM
TXBryan TXBryan is offline
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Just discovered this thread and it's filled with interesting comments. Hope mine's interesting too!

Last summer I served on a jury in a city in Central Texas with a population in excess of one million people. Third time called, first time selected to serve, it was an education and a half and left me with an even deeper appreciation for law enforcement professionals. The charge against the defendant was capital murder as the victim was shot, and killed, during a robbery.

The victim was shot once as he was getting up off a couch and the bullet entered on an angle as if he was shot from above. The projectile broke the third rib from the top upon entry and then traveled on a more-or-less straight path through the entirety of the left lung coming to rest near the lower lumbar area. The victim, a male well over six feet tall and over two hundred pounds, fell, lost consciousness, and died on the way to the emergency room.

When they passed the empty cartridge case around the jury box, the only one recovered from the crime scene, it was a Remington nickel-plated .380 and I assume it may have been a Golden Sabre but the bullet was not further identified in court. The firearm was not recovered and was alleged to have been disposed of in a nearby lake. The only thing that was certain was that this large, young, man was killed by a single shot with a .380 and at that point I ceased any temptation to think the .380 wasn't adequate for defensive tasks. And by the way; I don't own one.

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Old 09-12-2018, 02:10 PM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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For all the talk of these illusive drug addicts who can't feel pain, don't experience fear, and supposedly cannot be stopped by .380 ACP, you have to stop and wonder just how it was that warriors from centuries past who not only were under the influence of powerful hallucinogenic substances but motivated by strong convictions were felled by mere arrows?

Heck, how anybody was ever successfully killed with crude bows and arrows seems to completely defy the assertions that effective firearms must be semiautomatic, high capacity, have high contrast sights, and must be chambered in a cartridge capable of launching a projectile at supersonic speed which expands in diameter on impact and delivers hundreds of foot-pounds of Kinect energy.
Seriously, has anyone ever chronographed arrows fired from a crude bow? I would be curious to know just how much velocity/ft-lbs an arrow fired from an old-fashioned bow is capable of, because I doubt that it would measure up well to that of the common handgun cartridges of today, yet somehow managed to be deadly, even against the most motivated/inebriated, highly-trained, heavily armored, and muscular warriors of old. Meanwhile we question/argue whether modern firearms cartridges are capable of dealing with emaciated meth-heads whose only motivation is to get their next fix and probably aren't trained in any form of combat.
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:45 PM
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I have no interest in continuing this "debate?". But DHC, I gotta say, that post was irrelevant. I wouldn't even know where to start.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:25 PM
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Dirty Harry Callahan,

I tip my hat to your resourcefulness sir. Once we are done with the pointless .380 ACP/ 9 Parabellum debate we can discuss the merits and the inadequacies of French Crossbows and Welsh Longbows...
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