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  #151  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:28 PM
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Oink,

I have four sons, they taught me that the debate IS the point, and the reason for the debate is ALWAYS is irrelevant.
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  #152  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:00 AM
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This is just contradiction!

I paid for an argument!
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  #153  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:56 AM
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"Inspector Thompson's Gazelle of the Yard, you are under arrest for being overly self referential, always saying 'of the Yard', and for repeatedly getting out of sketches without a punch-line by having everyone arrested."
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  #154  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:37 AM
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Default EZ 380 Enough With Proper Ammo

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Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
I personally don't own a .380, but I have considered the M&P .380EZ for my wife. She has trouble with the slide on a Shield 9mm. She has a Colt Detective Special, but it has a terrible trigger.

I hope they come out with a 9mm in the EZ platform. I don't want to get into .380 reloading either. I reload almost everything I shoot.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
My wife has the EZ380. S&W did a lot of research and the result is the 380 EZ. She can operate it "EZ". Great hand feel and balance.
They put a longer barrel on it than other 380 pistols. Now, she practices with regular FMJ ammo. I know the pistol is not rated and in fact S&W cautions against using +P. However, for SD purposes it's loaded with Underwoods (Underwood loads their ammo hot) 380 ACP +P 65 gr Xtreme Defender rounds. (1400 spf) These rounds use the Lehigh solid brass "fluted" bullet. I suggest those who don't know about this bullet....check it out.
Since S&W seems to really state, "No +P" I'm sure they mean it.
But should the occasion arise...five or more into mass isn't apt to
cause a problem for the pistol. The problem is what's in front of it.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
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  #155  
Old 09-13-2018, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry Callahan View Post
For all the talk of these illusive drug addicts who can't feel pain, don't experience fear, and supposedly cannot be stopped by .380 ACP, you have to stop and wonder just how it was that warriors from centuries past who not only were under the influence of powerful hallucinogenic substances but motivated by strong convictions were felled by mere arrows?

Heck, how anybody was ever successfully killed with crude bows and arrows seems to completely defy the assertions that effective firearms must be semiautomatic, high capacity, have high contrast sights, and must be chambered in a cartridge capable of launching a projectile at supersonic speed which expands in diameter on impact and delivers hundreds of foot-pounds of Kinect energy.
Seriously, has anyone ever chronographed arrows fired from a crude bow? I would be curious to know just how much velocity/ft-lbs an arrow fired from an old-fashioned bow is capable of, because I doubt that it would measure up well to that of the common handgun cartridges of today, yet somehow managed to be deadly, even against the most motivated/inebriated, highly-trained, heavily armored, and muscular warriors of old. Meanwhile we question/argue whether modern firearms cartridges are capable of dealing with emaciated meth-heads whose only motivation is to get their next fix and probably aren't trained in any form of combat.
Please feel free to rely on whatever type of weapon you'd like. Arrows, clubs, brass knuckles, pepper spray - what have you.
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  #156  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
Dirty Harry Callahan,

I tip my hat to your resourcefulness sir. Once we are done with the pointless .380 ACP/ 9 Parabellum debate we can discuss the merits and the inadequacies of French Crossbows and Welsh Longbows...
I dropped a fin on the Welsh.
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  #157  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Horn View Post
My wife has the EZ380. S&W did a lot of research and the result is the 380 EZ. She can operate it "EZ". Great hand feel and balance.
They put a longer barrel on it than other 380 pistols. Now, she practices with regular FMJ ammo. I know the pistol is not rated and in fact S&W cautions against using +P. However, for SD purposes it's loaded with Underwoods (Underwood loads their ammo hot) 380 ACP +P 65 gr Xtreme Defender rounds. (1400 spf) These rounds use the Lehigh solid brass "fluted" bullet. I suggest those who don't know about this bullet....check it out.
Since S&W seems to really state, "No +P" I'm sure they mean it.
But should the occasion arise...five or more into mass isn't apt to
cause a problem for the pistol. The problem is what's in front of it.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo
I agree but wanted to caution that unless you have tested your gun with these rounds to ensure it will work (.380 auto loaders can be ammo sensitive) you may be asking for trouble. I always run at least 50 rounds of carry ammo through my EDC.
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  #158  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:01 AM
Dirty Harry Callahan Dirty Harry Callahan is offline
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Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
Dirty Harry Callahan,

I tip my hat to your resourcefulness sir. Once we are done with the pointless .380 ACP/ 9 Parabellum debate we can discuss the merits and the inadequacies of French Crossbows and Welsh Longbows...
Some would say that Crossbows are OBVIOUSLY superior because they are more technologically advanced, but in reality they're far less reliable than a good old-fashioned Bow.

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Originally Posted by AimHigher View Post
Please feel free to rely on whatever type of weapon you'd like. Arrows, clubs, brass knuckles, pepper spray - what have you.
Pfft... All children's toys... Real men carry swords! Anything less than a Claymore is completely incapable of getting through the thick hide of a Viking Berserker.

But seriously, I carry a Stiletto and don't feel underarmed, although on a cold day I'll pack a Gladius.

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  #159  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:44 PM
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I started my shooting hobby up a couple of years ago after a long while.
Always had paid attention to this sort of debate over the years but didn't intend to CC so it wasn't a practical matter.
However I did keep a firearm for home protection and also kept a pistol at my place of business.
Over the last several years I've collected a few guns that interested me and several of them are in .380 cal.
Its a great round.
Mine have a barrel length of between 2"and 3.75".
I practice with them.
2 are mil. surp. and the other is a modern pocket gun.
I'm on paper at 25 yards and at closer distances in 6 rapid fired rounds, its center mass all the way.
Took a CCW qualification class the other day and the instructor hadn't seen a CZ83 before . I can squeeze 14 rounds into that thing 13 +1 and the instructor wasn't poo poo ing it after he saw what it could do.
From my point of view thinking a .380 can't be accurate or lethal is kinda silly.
Not to insult anyones opinion and respect to all concerned.
I would rather be carrying my CZ 83 than the pocket gun, but I can carry that pocket gun anywhere, where as a larger pistol has serious concealment limitations.
One thing brought home by my CC class is that anytime you resort to deploying a fire arm your on the precipice of legal problems that could continue for a very long time .
So safety first !
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  #160  
Old 09-19-2018, 02:46 PM
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I normally carry a 9mm G26 with Speer Gold Dot +P Ammo
When I can't carry the G26, I rely on my NAA Guardian 380 Loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. I don't feel under Gunned with the 380, but can Draw the Glock a little faster.
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  #161  
Old 09-23-2018, 01:58 PM
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Ironically I just watched a video this morning that rated the top 5 cc pistols. since I carry a BG.380 I was curious to what they had to say. The S/W body guard 380 rated in at #3. They mentioned that it wasn't a target pistol and was designed for defense only at close quarters maybe up to 25 feet at most. The top rated (don't shoot me) was listed as the Rugar LCP II new version. BUT they said about the same thing only difference would be in the trigger feel might give you more accuracy. I'm not totally satisfied with mine it seems to snappy for me, but I'm not going to trash it and buy something else just yet.
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  #162  
Old 09-23-2018, 02:37 PM
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Unless youíre hunting bear it will suffice
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  #163  
Old 09-23-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by oldhilltoper View Post
BUT they said about the same thing only difference would be in the trigger feel might give you more accuracy.
I know a lot of people don't like the long trigger pull on the S&W Bodyguard. We hear a lot of complaining about that. It happens to be the pocket pistol I carry when my 40 or 45 just doesn't fit the situation I may be in that day. I personally like the long trigger pull. As it was mentioned, it is not designed to be a target pistol. So it really should not have a 3 lb. trigger pull on it. When I am wearing cargo pants with the larger pockets. I can carry this pistol without a holster or sleeve without any concerns about printing or a light trigger pull. You can bump it, drop it, even jam your hand in your pocket and it won't go off by accident. For this gun to fire you have to deliberately pull that trigger. For me, that is the best pocket pistol that I could have.

I have never picked up the Ruger LCP so I can't speak to that pistol. However if it is anything like the other Rugers I am sure it's a fine pistol.

Jim
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  #164  
Old 09-23-2018, 03:52 PM
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"I don't feel under gunned with my [insert whatever gun here]."

We hear this phrase all the time and it has absolutely no bearing on the subject matter. What a person "feels" about their gun is completely irrelevant. Only what the gun/caliber is capable of is important. You might "feel" fine carrying a .380Auto on that safari, but the elephant will still squash you after you shot it with every round you have.
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:35 PM
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When I need something seriously small and light I carry a North American Arms 22 Mag with the fold up stock. Not much bigger than a pocket knife and drops right into my pocket. Otherwise I carry everything from a little LCP .380, Glock 43 to a Ruger LCR 357 Magnum. Sometimes carry my dear departed Motherís Smith 49. I find myself carrying the 22 Mag more than any other because itís so easy to carry.
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  #166  
Old 09-23-2018, 06:04 PM
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"I don't feel under gunned with my [insert whatever gun here]."

We hear this phrase all the time and it has absolutely no bearing on the subject matter. What a person "feels" about their gun is completely irrelevant. Only what the gun/caliber is capable of is important. You might "feel" fine carrying a .380Auto on that safari, but the elephant will still squash you after you shot it with every round you have.
Very true. Another phrase I have heard down at the beer joint is "I ain't afraid of no knife or gun". That gun or knife don't care whether or not you are afraid because it can still kill you deader than 4 o'clock. Larry
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  #167  
Old 09-23-2018, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rastoff View Post
"I don't feel under gunned with my [insert whatever gun here]."

We hear this phrase all the time and it has absolutely no bearing on the subject matter. What a person "feels" about their gun is completely irrelevant. Only what the gun/caliber is capable of is important. You might "feel" fine carrying a .380Auto on that safari, but the elephant will still squash you after you shot it with every round you have.
I’d say that depends. If the “don’t feel undergunned” person is basing the feeling on decades of first-hand experience working murders and shootings, going to autopsies, dealing with armed criminals, and being in and around the occasional shooting scrap, then that feeling is probably valid.

If, one the other hand, that person is basing their good .380 vibes on secondhand accounts, internet tales, and magazine articles then you are probably right.

I carried my .380 today, and didn’t feel undergunned in the least.
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Old 09-23-2018, 11:22 PM
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Unless you’re hunting bear it will suffice
.380 is just fine for Bear. Shot placement is the key.
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  #169  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:22 AM
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My primary argument against the .380 is, and always has been, that by the time you shrink the gun to the point that it offers a size advantage against modern 9mm pistols, I can't shoot it so well. As soon as the gun gets much shorter than a G26, and real sights turn into those horrid triangular pyramid things, there's a pretty sharp drop-off in my ability to shoot them well. 7 yards, I'm still okay. At 10? Forget about it.

Ditto for J-frames, sort've. I can shoot them great if the sun is shining. At dusk, forget about it. You're probably pretty safe from me at 50 feet.

Given that there are plenty of pistols available that are concealable, and have real sights and a trigger-to-backstrap length that doesn't suck, I don't much care for the .380 m'self.

As for "I feel"--well, it's a variant of "well it works for me". But the thing of it is that "I feel" is a weak defense against a weak argument. You can apply the crux of ".380s suck" to pretty much any cartridge:

Don't carry a 9mm, carry a .40/.357 Sig.
Don't carry a .40, carry a 10mm.
Don't carry a .45, carry a .45 Super.
Don't carry a .45 Super, carry a .460 Rowland.

That said, I don't really buy into the "expert opinion" counter-argument (sorry Sig), because nobody's really been in that many gunfights. In any case, it sort've sidesteps the problem. Sure, a (insert small-size caliber here) might be sufficient in 95% of cases, but is downsizing worth giving up on the remaining 5%?

Hence why I argue against .380 as more of a "pocket guns are really limiting for me" thing. I'm nearly as good with a G26 as I am with a G34, and the 26 is really concealable. And, curiously, I know I'm better with a G26 than a full-size 9mm 1911.

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Old 09-24-2018, 08:47 AM
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The video is funny. You get it’s sarcasm about people that say pocket pistols aren’t big enough, right?
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:32 AM
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I sort've expected people not to think I was retarded. Just the same as I sort've expected everyone to read my post and go, "Oh hey, he's talking about why he doesn't carry a .380, he's not telling me I'm dumb for carrying one." I advance that argument because I don't think I'm really that abnormal a shooter: not really mind-blowingly great, but I shoot a lot and I don't suck at it. Hence, maybe stuff that applies to me applies to a pretty decent-sized cross-section of shooters.

There's still stuff that I think is just plainly a sub-par choice--for instance, I don't get the whole thing some folks have with the Colt Pocket Hammerless. But whatever, bullets still come out the little hole at the end, which fulfills the basic requirements.

And there's stuff I think is just retarded, which I'll happily call out as such...



I don't think I'm alone on the above, either. I couldn't remember what that dumpster fire was called, so I Google'd "Glock stupid", and found that picture.

I also liked how Chris--how the hell does he keep a straight face through all this?--started whapping on "hitpoints", a tool I've been using to make fun of CCW gamers for years.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:32 AM
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.380 is just fine for Bear. Shot placement is the key.


You're right. Right into your hunting partner's knee cap.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:35 AM
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You're right. Right into your hunting partner's knee cap.
No! A .380 auto pistol has plenty of penetration for bear.

You just have to fire it post-consumption.

Also, in before somebody posts the picture of the old Indian woman that killed one with a .22.
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Old 09-24-2018, 12:22 PM
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I sort've expected people not to think I was retarded. Just the same as I sort've expected everyone to read my post and go, "Oh hey, he's talking about why he doesn't carry a .380, he's not telling me I'm dumb for carrying one."
Don't think you're retarded. No disrespect intended. I was on board where with you were talking about what worked for you until you went here....

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...
That said, I don't really buy into the "expert opinion" counter-argument (sorry Sig), because nobody's really been in that many gunfights. In any case, it sort've sidesteps the problem. Sure, a (insert small-size caliber here) might be sufficient in 95% of cases, but is downsizing worth giving up on the remaining 5%?

Hence why I argue against .380 as more of a "pocket guns are really limiting for me" thing. I'm nearly as good with a G26 as I am with a G34, and the 26 is really concealable. And, curiously, I know I'm better with a G26 than a full-size 9mm 1911.
... and then you linked a video poking fun at people that argue the very thing you were arguing. Didn't seem to fit with the point you were trying to make.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:08 PM
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My primary argument against the .380 is, and always has been, that by the time you shrink the gun to the point that it offers a size advantage against modern 9mm pistols, I can't shoot it so well. As soon as the gun gets much shorter than a G26, and real sights turn into those horrid triangular pyramid things, there's a pretty sharp drop-off in my ability to shoot them well. 7 yards, I'm still okay. At 10? Forget about it.

Ditto for J-frames, sort've. I can shoot them great if the sun is shining. At dusk, forget about it. You're probably pretty safe from me at 50 feet.

Given that there are plenty of pistols available that are concealable, and have real sights and a trigger-to-backstrap length that doesn't suck, I don't much care for the .380 m'self.

As for "I feel"--well, it's a variant of "well it works for me". But the thing of it is that "I feel" is a weak defense against a weak argument. You can apply the crux of ".380s suck" to pretty much any cartridge:

Don't carry a 9mm, carry a .40/.357 Sig.
Don't carry a .40, carry a 10mm.
Don't carry a .45, carry a .45 Super.
Don't carry a .45 Super, carry a .460 Rowland.

That said, I don't really buy into the "expert opinion" counter-argument (sorry Sig), because nobody's really been in that many gunfights. In any case, it sort've sidesteps the problem. Sure, a (insert small-size caliber here) might be sufficient in 95% of cases, but is downsizing worth giving up on the remaining 5%?

Hence why I argue against .380 as more of a "pocket guns are really limiting for me" thing. I'm nearly as good with a G26 as I am with a G34, and the 26 is really concealable. And, curiously, I know I'm better with a G26 than a full-size 9mm 1911.

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No worries. We all base our decisions on our personal experiences.

My first job in the FBI was on a Violent Crimes/Fugitive Task Force in New Orleans, which was at the time the murder capital of the US. We arrested people all day, every day, for serious felonies - murder, attempted murder, aggravated assault, rape, armed robbery, arson, and aggravated burglary (home invasion). Most had been shot at some point prior to me hooking them up. I'm a personable guy, and on the way to Central Lockup I would ask them about what they had been shot with, and they almost always were happy to show me their bullet scars and tell me how they got shot. I also stood over a busload of dead people, and attended their autopsies, and talked to scads of witnesses who had seen people shot. I was also in a few scrapes myself, but as you said, nobody anymore is in enough shoot-em-ups to to claim expert status.

But, I don't think you should discount the opinions of people who have seen steam rising from dead folks, or watched the ME saw off skull caps, or talked to murderers and witnesses, and worked cases through the system to the creation of shiny new felons. You can if you want, of course. I know many instructors who get overly defensive over never having done what they are teaching others to do, but you don't strike me as that type.

My little journey has led me to believe the hardware aspect of shooting people is the least important. Any gun can work, and any gun can fail. I knew guys who could barely qualify and didn't know what brand their gun was, let alone what kind of ammo they were carrying. They used whatever the department gave them. They had all killed people in straight up gunfights, and were absolutely reliable in a scrap. I’d happily hit doors with them all day long.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
...My little journey has led me to believe the hardware aspect of shooting people is the least important. Any gun can work, and any gun can fail. I knew guys who could barely qualify and didn't know what brand their gun was, let alone what kind of ammo they were carrying. They (the guns) had all killed people in straight up gunfights, and were absolutely reliable in a scrap.
Different city, municipal PD, same experience.
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Old 09-24-2018, 07:53 PM
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Why does this topic use up so much time & space?

One well placed hit with a dinky 'anemic' round is worth any number of misses with any round....period.
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