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Old 08-22-2018, 06:02 PM
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Not attempting to start a war, (pun intented). just some food for thought.

On page 100 of the September edition The American Rifleman is the monthly article called: "I have this old gun...." And in the issue that I received yesterday the featured firearm is a FN Browning Model 1922. This is the same model that arguably started WWI on June 28, 1014. The Bosnian nationalist "fired twice at Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, mortally wounding them."
I see "experts" saying the .380 is not a good carry arm, the minimum is ?????. In this case it was more than enough, and a .22 LR is more than enough a lot of times.
I'm not an expert, but I think it safe to say that whatever caliber that a person can handle safely and shoot well is the best carry gun for him or her.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

P.S. If you are not a member of the NRA and like to read about old firearms, now is a good time to join.

Copyright for the above mentioned article is owned by the National Rifle Association, 11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030-9400

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Old 08-22-2018, 07:08 PM
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Leon, I think most of us here will agree that bullet placement is key. That being said, however, there are a few things to consider in that particular shooting.

First, the shooter was pretty much within what I call "belly button distance." He was just a little over four feet away.

Second, the Archduke and Duchess were seated in a vehicle...no chance to either flee the scene or attack their assailant. (This is significant because in a self-defense situation, we want a bullet with stopping power.) Ferdinand and Sophie probably could've remained somewhat ambulatory for a short time after being shot (even considering the seriousness of their wounds) and, had they not been constrained and had been of a violent nature, they could've attempted an assault on the shooter. After the shooting, they both remained seated upright in the vehicle while traveling to the governor's home for medical care.

Third, the first shot hit Ferdinand in the jugular, yet he remained alive until they reached the governor's house. In fact, when he was asked about the extent of his injuries, he replied, "It's nothing."

So, while a .380 is certainly deadly, a heavier, more powerful cartridge would undoubtedly be preferred to produce increased shock and stopping power.

That being said, do I occasionally carry a .380? You bet...a Ruger LCP when it is difficult to conceal something more powerful. Do I feel inadequate? Not really, but I have to realize its limitations. As I alluded to previously, the .380 is a "belly button gun." It was designed to be used up close and personal.

I'm not going to be using it to take shots at 25 yards. It won't be used to stop a charging black bear. Nope. It is to be used when I'm confronted in the parking lot of the grocery store late at night by Jimmy the Creep demanding my Social Security check. Yep...belly button distance. Close enough to effectively empty the magazine into the designated target...enough to either stop or completely discourage further unwanted behavior.

Just my view from the saddle.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:27 PM
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I also CC a 380 sometimes, PPK clone and don't feel under gunned.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:35 PM
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Default 380 enough?

With the new superior bullet designs, powder improvements, yes a 380 will do the job. Especially if you empty the gun on target.
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Old 08-22-2018, 07:52 PM
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Nice Schrade pocket knife
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:26 PM
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"I'm not an expert, but I think it safe to say that whatever caliber that a person can handle safely and shoot well is the best carry gun for him or her. "



I can kill a 300# pig with a .22 short (captive animal), but I am not stupid enough to go wild boar hunting with a .22.
Apples and oranges: adequate defense not the same as can kill a defenseless individual, and a carry gun should be for defense, not execution.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:32 PM
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With the pocket 9s that are available, I don't see a reason to carry a 380 unless you're recoil sensitive.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:41 PM
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A .22 short is enough, just put it though an eye socket. A .22 LR will probably penetrate the skull. More people have died from the .22LR than any other round. .32acp fmjs penetrate a torso, A .380acp properly placed will work just fine.

I carry a .38 special, it has a proven track record. .38 Super and .357s even more so, but with a huge sound signature.

.40S&W, .44 specials, .45acps can both kill and cause significant injury even with pariphreal hits.

JMO, rule one always carry, rule two hit what you aim at.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:44 PM
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My personal feeling is proficiency and accuracy with what you choose is more important than caliber, at least when talking the major defensive calibers.

Here is a summary of a real world study on shootings that seems to reach the same conclusion.
YouTube
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:49 PM
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As noted by others previously, the whole idea of a self defense pistol is NOT to kill the other guy, it is to prevent the other guy from killing you. A certain amount of power is desirable to help ensure this.

Little known fact, the Arch Duke was wearing a really excellent (for it's time) bulletproof vest. As he was hit in the neck it did him little good. The U. S. Secret Service thought so much of it they special ordered one for William McKinley. It arrived two weeks after he was shot to death. His successor, Teddy Roosevelt, was the victim of at least one assassination attempt. A folded up bunch of paper in his inside coat pocket (speech notes) saved him from a significant injury. Anemic cartridge.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:11 PM
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When it comes to self defense, the question of which cartridge is "enough" is really sort of moot. The question should be, "Would I want to be shot with this?" If your answer is "No", that'll be the answer from the vast majority of people you're ever likely to have to point it at.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:26 PM
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It seems to me it depends on how you see your risks. If your main risk is random violence at the ATM or gas pump, I think .380 will convince a bad guy he has something better to do than harm you as well as any. They just want an easy target.

If I was a LEO that had put some really bad people away, where revenge was their motive, I’d want something with a lot of really big boolets.
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
Not attempting to start a war, (pun intented). just some food for thought.

On page 100 of the September edition The American Rifleman is the monthly article called: "I have this old gun...." And in the issue that I received yesterday the featured firearm is a FN Browning Model 1922. This is the same model that arguably started WWI on June 28, 1014. The Bosnian nationalist "fired twice at Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, mortally wounding them."
I see "experts" saying the .380 is not a good carry arm, the minimum is ?????. In this case it was more than enough, and a .22 LR is more than enough a lot of times.
I'm not an expert, but I think it safe to say that whatever caliber that a person can handle safely and shoot well is the best carry gun for him or her.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
You had to do it didn't you???
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:24 PM
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I personally don't own a .380, but I have considered the M&P .380EZ for my wife. She has trouble with the slide on a Shield 9mm. She has a Colt Detective Special, but it has a terrible trigger.

I hope they come out with a 9mm in the EZ platform. I don't want to get into .380 reloading either. I reload almost everything I shoot.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
As noted by others previously, the whole idea of a self defense pistol is NOT to kill the other guy, it is to prevent the other guy from killing you...
Correct, the goal of a SD shooting is to STOP the illegal assault upon your person (or that of another innocent.) One highly effective way to STOP an illegal assault is to disrupt or disconnect the criminal perpetrators central nervous system, usually resulting in severe injury or death.

We don't shoot at hands, arms, legs, feet. Some people, understanding thier abilities with a handgun choose to aim center mass, larger calibers may turn peripheral hits into "stoppers", but for those who hit what they aim at, pretty much any caliber will do.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:00 PM
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I think the problem is more the guns than the cartridge. By the time you get down to a pistol sized to take advantage of the .380 ACP, the sight radius is rather small and the sights themselves are typically pretty lousy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark
I personally don't own a .380, but I have considered the M&P .380EZ for my wife. She has trouble with the slide on a Shield 9mm. She has a Colt Detective Special, but it has a terrible trigger.

I hope they come out with a 9mm in the EZ platform. I don't want to get into .380 reloading either. I reload almost everything I shoot.
Just suck it up and show her the 380EZ, even if it's only a stopgap between now and whenever she grows confident-enough to operate something more conventional.

Also, side note, I frequently see a lot of shooters have problems because they're being too gentle in their manipulation.
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:06 PM
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.380, .381, whatever it takes.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:20 AM
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Since the mid 70's I've owned nothing but Smith 2 or 4" .357 magnums until February of this year when I brought my first automatic a .380 Shield EZ. I Love my .380! What I found out was that I can put more rounds center mass Faster with the lower recoil. I believed in the "shock and awe" of my. 357's but putting more rounds in the right place is really king.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:39 AM
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My 81 year old neighbor carries a .380 everyday, says 9mm is too much recoil for his tired bones. I tell him .380 is better than no-80.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:52 AM
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Watch some of the crime shows on TV like "The First 48" and you will
surely think the .380 is enough. There are many people laid to rest with
the little .380 on a regular basis here in the US. I carry a Ruger LCP
most of the time any more because it's handy and I avoid risky places.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:07 AM
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I was a cop for 30 years and survived three deadly encounters with my issued .38 so that’s where my comfort level lies. I’ve tried a variety of .380 pistols and all of them failed, one way or another over time, so I gave up on that platform. That said I witnessed people shot w/all sorts of calibers and what I learned is shot placement is the only thing that really matters. Guns carried for self defense are usually small and difficult to shoot so regular range time is a must. Safe & accurate gun handling is a perishable skill. Always be aware of your surroundings and stay safe.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:25 AM
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Ballistics of the modern .380 are very similar to a modern 38. Practically speaking there's not enough difference to be of consequence. 38 is a little heavier and 380 is a little faster, their energy is basically the same. I know everyone has an idea in their head where they draw the line on minimum defensive rounds but I think the line between 38 and 380 is cobweb thin. That line would be better drawn between 380 and 32 or between 38 and 38+P. Yes, I said it, I think there's a bigger energy gap between 38+P and 38 than there is between 38 and 380.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
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Ballistics of the modern .380 are very similar to a modern 38. Practically speaking there's not enough difference to be of consequence. 38 is a little heavier and 380 is a little faster, their energy is basically the same. I know everyone has an idea in their head where they draw the line on minimum defensive rounds but I think the line between 38 and 380 is cobweb thin. That line would be better drawn between 380 and 32 or between 38 and 38+P. Yes, I said it, I think there's a bigger energy gap between 38+P and 38 than there is between 38 and 380.
I agree with this. Looking at muzzle energy with my defensive loads .38 special is about 225 ft/lb and .380 auto is around 200 ft/lb (Speer Gold Dot).
To answer the OP question, I think the .380 or .38 is the minimum and I carry both of these on a regular basis.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:54 AM
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You can kill someone with a 22, so with the right ammo 380 is just as deadly as anything else.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:07 AM
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It depends on your perceived needs. For some a 380 may be enough. For others it may not be.

I’ve owned several small 380 guns. Tried to like them but they just don’t work for me.

If one lived in small town USA a small 380 is probably enough. In major metropolitan areas it may not be. But quite often the caliber of the gun is not a factor when buying. The size of the gun is often the most important factor.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post

Little known fact, the ArchDuke was wearing a really excellent (for it's time) bulletproof vest. As he was hit in the neck it did him little good. The U. S. Secret Service thought so much of it they special ordered one for William McKinley. It arrived two weeks after he was shot to death. His successor, Teddy Roosevelt, was the victim of at least one assassination attempt. A folded up bunch of paper in his inside coat pocket (speech notes) saved him from a significant injury. Anemic cartridge.
Little known facts.

1. Roosevelt was shot once by john schrank with a Colt Police Positive chambered in 38 S&W. A well known weak round.

2. The Archduke Ferdinand was killed by Gavrilo Princip with a FN model 1910 380, he was shot once in the neck, wife shot once in the stomach, both died within minutes. He was not wearing a bulletproof vest and I'm not sure where you got that from, perhaps it was because his aides had to use scissors to remove his jacket and the story changed over time. the outer lapel had been sewn to the inner front of the jacket to make for a smoother appearance when out in public. That's why they had to cut his coat off of him. Which again, is immaterial because the guy was shot in the neck...

3. William McKinley was shot twice in the gut by a .32 Iver Johnson revolver hiding under a handkerchief by Leon Czolgosz at point blank range and died a week or so later of gangrene. Mckinley was also very obese just saying...Oh and he was not wearing a bulletproof vest & again, not sure where you're getting your info from.

Point is, the objective in a self defense shooting is to stop the attacker, not to kill.. I mean C'mon guys... We're trying to defend ourselves from a violent attack, we're not Bear hunting..

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Old 08-23-2018, 10:37 AM
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I recently read a study of 1700 gun fatalities that examined the different caliber firearms effectiveness. The 380 held its own against its bigger brothers, far better than its little brothers, with being fatal in nearly (IIRC) 14% of the time. That said, I wouldn't want to be shot with a 380, but I'll stick with one of my big brothers for my PD.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:45 AM
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Yeppers! To steal something from them gator hunters in Louisiana, "choot 'em till they stop!"
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:39 PM
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well...….just my humble opine...… n o
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
Not attempting to start a war, (pun intented). just some food for thought.

On page 100 of the September edition The American Rifleman is the monthly article called: "I have this old gun...." And in the issue that I received yesterday the featured firearm is a FN Browning Model 1922. This is the same model that arguably started WWI on June 28, 1014. The Bosnian nationalist "fired twice at Franz Ferdinand and his wife Sophie, mortally wounding them."
I see "experts" saying the .380 is not a good carry arm, the minimum is ?????. In this case it was more than enough, and a .22 LR is more than enough a lot of times.
I'm not an expert, but I think it safe to say that whatever caliber that a person can handle safely and shoot well is the best carry gun for him or her.

Have a blessed day,

Leon

P.S. If you are not a member of the NRA and like to read about old firearms, now is a good time to join.

Copyright for the above mentioned article is owned by the National Rifle Association, 11250 Waples Mill Road, Fairfax, VA 22030-9400
Is .380acp enough? The answer is a definite “sometimes”. If you like the odds, go for it.

No handgun caliber is a definite “always” though the .380acp is generally acknowledged to be on the low end of the acceptable spectrum.

Once you get out of the pocket gun category and come to grips with wearing a holster, there are definitely better options that increase the odds of bullet effectiveness.

Even in the pocket gun category, I am personally more comfortable with the power of a stoutly loaded J frame .38 or mid-range .357.
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:16 PM
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I carry 38 special, 380 acp, 9mm, and 45... They all are good enough imho... I don't waste my time with all the speculative bro science from so call experts... All that matters to me is if I like the gun, if it's reliable, and if I can hit the broad side of barn with it...
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:23 PM
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The women bring these little "cuties"in 32 and 380 caliber for their Concealed Carry Licence Class.
After shooting 50 rounds, ALL of the ladies with this tiny pistol have "slide cuts in the web between thumb and index finger,
YES,,,,All of them.
They grip tightly,and the web gets cut by the slide recoiling back!
Remember this.

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Old 08-23-2018, 05:36 PM
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Is the .380 enough? Is the .380 enough? Is the .380 enough? Is the .380 enough? Is the .380 enough?  
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The way I look at this is that more then likely if I ever had to pull my CCW the threat will be pretty close to me, close enough that pull and fire is a very likely scenario. Shooting from the hip with one hand or aiming with one hand. I personally feel like at a self defense distance just about any hand gun caliber is enough to STOP a threat. However personal preference plays a roll into whatever I or you feel like is enough stopping power. I carry some form of .38 special most of the time (K or J frame Smith) and will carry .380 sometimes (ppk/s) I personally would not carry anything less. So for me .380 is the minimum for my self defense standards. Most likely us non LEOs will never have to pull or use our CCWs so carry what makes you happy and your comfortable wearing all day. This is all just my 2 cents, I am not trying to argue or disagree with anyone on here.
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:56 PM
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I was not a fan of 380...till Browning introduced the 1911-380.
the longer barrel increased velocity a bit...yet the gun is extremely concealable. very light..and the locked breech took away the snap of a light weight pistol. I need to confess, it was my wife who wanted the 1911-22, followed by the matching 1911-380. the pair fit her hand as if designed for her small hand. the 1911-380 has been 100% reliable, and is now wifes CCW. she can and does shoot extremely tight groups with it.

I should add, wife does have a full size SA Loaded 1911 45, shoots it well, but the size and weight make it a range/truck pistol...and she likes the common controls of the 1911 and the 1911-380

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Old 08-23-2018, 09:45 PM
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I have read more than my share on what is the best caliber. I have also read that hitting the correct spot or accuracy is more important than caliber.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:00 PM
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I'll stick with good old 38 special as primary but have no issue carrying 380 from time to time.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:17 PM
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Yes.

Not only is it "enough", but it is right in line with the major service calibers (.38 special, 9mm, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) in real-world street results. Don't believe me? Check this out:

YouTube

The .380 is shown in that study to be much more effective than the "mouse" calibers such as .22LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP. And with today's hollow-point technology, there are .380 loads that both expand AND meet the FBI recommended 12" penetration factors.

The .380 is a worthy defensive caliber. The numbers and street results agree. Shot placement above everything but the .380 can and will get it done. Really it's the guns that fire .380 that can be somewhat limiting. While guns like the Ruger LCP and S&W Bodyguard are very small and compact, they aren't particularly "shootable" for the average person and magazine capacity is often limited.

With a larger gun like the Beretta 84 or CZ-83, both mid-size double-stack .380s, you can have an EXCELLENT fighting handgun that can be highly effective. Again, the data and real world performance show the .380 is as potent as any standard duty caliber. With the tiny pocket .380s, it takes more training to "get there" but they too can be really great guns for personal protection.

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Old 08-24-2018, 02:43 PM
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Over a hundred years ago, something like the FN 1910 was state-of-the-art in concealable defense. The 1922 was a brilliant answer to giving countries on a budget a service pistol that would be a lot easier to shoot than the 1910. There were police agencies carrying them up into the 80's. The Dutch Politie Troepen (I believe they still exist), carried .380 1922s with SIX 8-round magazines! Here's an interesting topic for debate: who was better armed during the 30s-50s'? 1. The Dutch Trooper with a 4.4 inch barreled .380 and 48 rounds in quickly-changed magazines? 2. A typical American cop with a six-shot revolver and .38 Special, with reloads in dump pouches or loops? It's not so-clear cut, of course. Differences in training would trump the differences in guns, and most police users of the 1922 went with .32ACP. So did the Nazis, who had over 400,000 made during the war (that was the pistol showcased in the National Rifleman). For me, I would go with the Dutch choice! I wish I had one of those 1922s! Today, I would probably go with a compact 9mm Parabellum for concealed carry. With lighter ammo (like Critical Defense), a locked breech gun doesn't kick that much.
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:49 PM
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I carry a 380 and the way I see is is the bullet is powerful enough to penetrate one side of the skull
but not the other so the bullet ricochets around inside the skull scrambling the brain.

Good enough for me.
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Old 08-24-2018, 02:59 PM
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I used to carry a .32 PP clone, and not once have I managed to find a volunteer willing to prove how inadequate a caliber that is by letting me shoot at them. People don't like being shot, so a .380 will always beat a pointy stick or yelling for help.

Concealability and recoil are big factors when it comes to carrying a gun. HAVING a gun is the key.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:06 PM
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Here are 141 posts that might be of interest - lots of other threads like this here:


.380 load (Calling Erich)
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:12 PM
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In the over 5 years that I have carried my LCP, it has never seen a hollow point.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:14 PM
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Most of the 80s I carried a .380 PPK not many/any? small 9mms back then and it was for defense not offense ..... once the 3913 came along it got retired except for Tux and Bond movie nights.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:31 PM
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I think that Joe Petroni (George Kennedy in the original "Airport" ) said it best, "the old 707 just doesn't know how to read, so she doesn't know what she can't do." That same logic applies here, in the hands of a competent user, the 380 just won't know what it can't do.

I am awaiting my purchase permit in order to pick up my Mauser HSc in 380. I am not fond of the heel magazine release, but it has many redeeming virtues. While I would prefer to carry a 1911 or my 686+ 3", I believe that there may be instances where a larger or thicker handgun will print more than I desire, hence the HSc.

Being disabled, I don't plan on looking for trouble, but if it finds me, most likely it will be at bad breath range. At bad breath range I won't be assuming a Camp Perry stance, but point shooting from the hip, so it will be center of mass. I don't expect the opportunity for a head shot. For carry ammo, I would prefer either the Lehigh Defense protection round or Hornady Critical Defense if they function reliably, otherwise it will be ball ammo.

Will I be undergunned? Maybe. But I will plant my shots. In my mind, having a sidearm in hand is better than nothing at all.
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Old 08-24-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebring Pop View Post
I carry a 380 and the way I see is is the bullet is powerful enough to penetrate one side of the skull
but not the other so the bullet ricochets around inside the skull scrambling the brain.

Good enough for me.
A .22 will do the same thing.

At least on the internet.

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Old 08-24-2018, 05:07 PM
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I've got a kinda funny idea about that. Six 40 grain rounds of .22LR = 240 grains of lead. Same amount as one round of calibers beginning with a 4. Difference is, six rounds in slightly different locations have a bit more chance to strike something serious inside, whereas the one round beginning with 40 might not hit something serious, even though it came very close to doing so. No comparison between six rounds of the large caliber, of course, but a lot of folks can't fire more than a couple of large caliber rounds in the same time a practiced person can fire several of the small calibers. I see folks shooting the medium power rounds mostly with their eyes closed when they jerk the trigger. AT CLOSE RANGE, several rounds of .22LR get close to equalling as much lead as a 00 Buck shotgun round. Nowhere near the same stomping power, of course.
The question is, if (IF, and I tend to think it might be that) the six rounds of .22LR will get the job done, and it's all you can shoot comfortably, quickly, and accurately, do you really need anything more than to get the job done. Yes, the larger more powerful rounds are not as marginal, but dead or incapacitated is dead or incapacitated, and more dead or incapacitated really is more than is necessary.

I'm not recommending anything here, just sayin' that I have known a lot of folks who don't have the strength any more to handle the larger powered rounds to gain that extra margin of safety. If you can, go for it. But if you can't anymore, or never could for whatever reason, then use what you can handle effectively and don't look back. Any of them beat having nothing at all to make a difference. And I'm no believer in one shot stops. Yeah, they happen, but they are never guaranteed. Sometimes just having a handgun makes a BIG difference, and probably a larger percentage of successful self protection events have occured while using a smaller less powerful round than any of us might think.

I salute those who may be carrying the so called mouse guns because they can still use them as opposed to a bigger, heavier, perhaps more desirable something that they just cannot efffectively use. I will always remember a grey haired little old lady who was at an indoor range and shooting her small caliber handgun from her wheel chair and was just flat wearing out her target out at 7 yards. Kudos to the range for making accomodation for her. Kudos to her for being willing not only to have a gun, but to regularly go to the range and maintain her familiarity and effectiveness with that gun. And all of us who got the opportunity to be around when this happened were treated to a very positive and determined lady who still could and did take responsibility for her personal safety. I sure don't want her shootin' at me! Her lesson is this: Anybody who buys a handgun and shoots it once or twice and parks it in a drawer is no more protected than folks who don't have a gun. And being able to shoot competently is a skill that diminishes over time of not shooting. That old gal was having a ball, and she was an inspiration for me, mouse gun and all!
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:37 PM
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I have two grown daughters who don’t like to shoot but can handle a twenty-two. I gave each of them a .22 revolver to keep handy just in case, and we practice as often as possible.
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:14 PM
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The .380 ACP cartridge got a bad rep in the United States because at one point in time the cartridge was downloaded domestically in consideration of all the cheapo pot metal semiautomatic pistols on the market at the time. Thankfully, that is no longer the case due to the fact that all the .380 pistols on the market today are of much higher quality, and tend to be built on the inherently stronger tilting barrel/locking breach action as opposed to the more common straight blowback operated pistols of the past.

My EDC is a Smith & Wesson manufactured Walther PPK/S in .380 ACP loaded with Hornady American Gunner XTPs. Being a robust all steel pistol that's built like a tank, I could safely load it up with Buffalo Bore's so-called .380 ACP +P loads which are cranked up to deliver energy levels on par with .38 Special +P or 9x18 Makarov, but I don't see the point when standard pressure loads like the ones I carry already meet FBI specifications with a minimum of 12" of penetration with full expansion in Balistics Gel with 5 layers of heavy denim. (Which for those who don't know, is intended to simulate an absolute worst case scenario in which an assailant is behind cover/seated in an automobile, wearing absurdly heavy clothing, using a shooting stance in which their forearms are in front of their torso.)

.380 ACP is most certainly adequate for self-defense with modern defensive ammunition.

Last edited by Dirty Harry Callahan; 08-29-2018 at 09:32 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderboss View Post
With the pocket 9s that are available, I don't see a reason to carry a 380 unless you're recoil sensitive.
There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.
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Old 08-28-2018, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
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There isn't a pocket 9 made that's as small or light as my Kahr P380. Some are pretty close, but my pocket can sure tell especially when it bulges out or droops noticeably with anything larger than the Kahr inside.
Exactly. NO WAY that ANY pocket 9mm is nearly as small and light as a Kel-Tec P32 or Ruger LCP. People that repeat this drivel are kidding themselves. Short of the expensive and fragile Rohrbaughs all "pocket" 9mms I ever seen are significantly larger and heavier than pocket .380s.
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