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  #1  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:11 AM
BAM-BAM BAM-BAM is offline
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Default More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????

Just read the " Is the .380 enough" thread.

In that thread; and many others over the years, I've seen the assertion that "More people have died from a .22lr than any other round".

What is the basis for that statement?

Is that world wide or just the US??

I don't think it's been used as a military round since the American Civil War.

Are they including suicides????? Just shooting deaths and homicides in the US?

Edit: not saying the assertion is wrong ......just trying to understand the basis for the statement.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 08-23-2018 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:20 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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It's pretty much due to the fact that .22 rimfires exist in such huge numbers.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:26 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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I'm not aware of any factual statements backed up by evidence regarding this assertion. My guess is that it's based on the assumption that the .22 is widespread, even in locations around the world where other/larger calibers are heavily regulated or banned. If you accept that, then it would stand to reason that more people are killed by it just based on it's wider availability.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:30 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Bill Jordan said more people have been killed with the .22 than any other
caliber, if we do not count those killed in wars. I don't know who counted,
or how.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:39 AM
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So it's more of an "Urban legend" than a documented 'fact"

I would have guessed the 7.62x39 AK round .... a pretty active shooter over the past 70 years.

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Old 08-23-2018, 09:01 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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In Bill Jordan’s day, you couldn’t go to a gun store and look at a selection of hundreds of different styles of handguns in multiple calibers. But anyone could walk into a sporting goods store or Sears and buy a .22 rifle. And thugs in organized crime were famously using .22’s to cap informants. Of course “zip guns” and “Saturday Night Specials” were the rage. Cops carried mostly .38 Specials or some, like Jordan, carried .357 Magnum. I’m guessing 9mm is the preferred handgun of the hardcore criminals these days, merely because of the availability of millions that can be easily stolen. Wilson Combat .45’s are in safes. 9mm’s are in the glovebox or center console of every pickup in America that displays an NRA member sticker. Easy picking.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:06 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
So it's more of an "Urban legend" than a documented 'fact"

I would have guessed the 7.62x39 AK round .... a pretty active shooter over the past 70 years.
Or the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev round, assuming that is what Stalin, Mao, and the boys used for "persuasive political" purposes...
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:07 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Originally Posted by LPD256 View Post
...
I’m guessing 9mm is the preferred handgun of the hardcore criminals these days, merely because of the availability of millions that can be easily stolen. Wilson Combat .45’s are in safes. 9mm’s are in the glovebox or center console of every pickup in America that displays an NRA member sticker. Easy picking.
I thought “fortay” was king with the thug life crowd.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:13 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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That figure can't possibly include the millions killed in wars.

Greg Ellifritz' study didn't even claim .22 killed more than any other. Just that .22LR is about the same lethality as other handgun calibers based on available past data.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:04 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson View Post
Or the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev round, assuming that is what Stalin, Mao, and the boys used for "persuasive political" purposes...
I would agree. History records many of millions of people killed in the fighting in southern and eastern Europe and Asia from the mid 1930s through the end of the Vietnam War. And in all circumstances the battle proven 7.62X25 Tokarev pistol (manufactured in Russian, China, Poland, Romania, Hungary, N. Korea, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia) was in use.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:10 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDSTER View Post
I would agree. History records many of millions of people killed in the fighting in southern and eastern Europe and Asia from the mid 1930s through the end of the Vietnam War. And in all circumstances the battle proven 7.62X25 Tokarev pistol (manufactured in Russian, China, Poland, Romania, Hungary, N. Korea, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia) was in use.
If this assertion is confined to pistol calibers only my vote would go to the 9mm Luger. It is still pretty much the standard caliber for Western countries!
Jim
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:13 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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This is an older study, but I doubt it's changed much. I think it's safe to say that in general criminal use, the .22 LR is right up there in the running. I know I've been guilty of quoting Jordan in the past, and I've modified that lately to say "Well, the .22 sure has killed a lot of people . . . "

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:15 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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First, I doubt the statement is true.
Second, there is a big difference between effectively stopping a fight and eventually killing.
BTW, The lowly .22 has been used by select groups of elite forces in modern times. The US use of suppressed Hi Standard and Ruger 22 pistols by the US Seals in Vietnam and the Israeli Mossad /Military also use of suppressed .22 Ruger 10/22 rifles and MK pistols in assassinations come to mind. I'm sure there are others.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:23 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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I doubt there is factual evidence to support that claim or such a claim about any caliber. Even if it were true, what point would it make? If there has been a documented claim of a .22LR round killing a grizzly bear, would it mean that everyone should carry that caliber in bear country for protection or sport hunting?
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:33 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
Just read the " Is the .380 enough" thread.

In that thread; and many others over the years, I've seen the assertion that "More people have died from a .22lr than any other round".

What is the basis for that statement?

Is that world wide or just the US??

I don't think it's been used as a military round since the American Civil War.

Are they including suicides????? Just shooting deaths and homicides in the US?

Edit: not saying the assertion is wrong ......just trying to understand the basis for the statement.

It's pretty much due to the fact that just like civilian self defense shootings, there isn't enough data being recorded and some sources are lacking in credibility. Most of what you're going to read here is mostly conjecture and hearsay.

Can a 22 caliber pistol or rifle kill? yes...
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:42 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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In my years of professional experience, the .22 is not the weapon of choice in homicides or attempted homicides. Yes, many have been killed with a .22, but nowhere near to what have been killed or wounded by a .38 Special/.357 Magnum, 9mm, and .45 Auto. A gun is a status symbol to the criminal street gangs, and a .22 doesn't have a lot of status. This is just my experience.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:09 AM
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Sort of like the old statement of "The 30-30 has killed more game than all others combined" that you hear around the gun counter of local gun shops by the "Old Timers"
Randy
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:14 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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I'd bet the assertion is partially true in that 22 lr has caused many many accidental shootings/deaths.

But I think this is more an urban legend/internet lore that just gets passed along again and again.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM View Post
So it's more of an "Urban legend" than a documented 'fact"............................

.
Just read the attachment to Muss Muggin's post......seems to support jag312's comments.

Bill Jordan passed 20 years ago at 85...... so quoting him may be using data a bit out of date
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:29 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Back in the 60's, I found a disproportionate number of miscreants carrying and using the .25 automatic, which was a revelation for me. I carried one fellow to the hospital ER three different times over a period of a few years. He had a proclivity for spending time in women's bedrooms who were married to other men!

Each time, after which the bullet(s) that struck him were still present in his body or had passed through, none of them hitting anything seriously important. He got cleaned up, disinfected, given a shot of strong antibiotic as well as a tetanus shot, and a big bandaid placed on entrance and exit wounds, and was released to me for further handling. The guy was pretty matter of fact about each incident, indicating that it was part of the risk he was willing to take. He was harmless as a fly, but just about as persistent in his activities.

I came to understand at the time that the reason the .25 auto was preferred was because the little semi autos, especially the higher quality ones, were pretty reliable shooters and they could be carried and hidden just about anywhere as opposed to most other handguns. I also arrested two different women later on in the 70's/80's who were carrying a small .25 auto. One had hers tucked up underneath the leg of her long line girdle, which a lot of women wore in those days. Had I not searched her legs seriously about as high up as I was willing to reach, I would have missed it, but when I felt it, it was immediately obvious. The second woman was also thoroughly searched, but her .25 auto was not found until the matron at the jail performed a body cavity search looking for the drugs we suspected she was carrying. What a surprise! Seems to me that it would have been somewhat uncomfortable, but maybe comforting!

For the record, I was also involved in additional shooting incidents where a .25 auto was responsible for the death of individuals. My observation, which we oft read and hear, is that it is fairly important where one lands the bullets they fire. Those .25 caliber rounds that struck something seriously important after sufficient penetration was achieved did the job as well as any other caliber.

I don't recall seeing any handgun that was not sufficiently accurate enough to allow hits that were likely to be effective at close range. I do, however, recall seeing quite a lot of both small revolvers and semi autos that were of such poor construction that they were more likely not to launch a round than they were to fire one. Those were certainly not recommended for serious social encounters, but you could get 'em cheap! Back in the day, a nice copy of a baby Browning .25 auto was the choice of a good many LEO's as a BUG. It was fairly common to see the outline of one that rode in the officer's hip pocket and which had left a mark on the outer material of the trousers similar to the ring that a snuff can leaves when carried in a hip pocket.

First order of importance is to have a gun, and the second thing necesary is being able to land the rounds you fire in the best place. There are other things that then affect the outcome, particularly the time necessary for serious incapcitation. What ever you carry, make sure it works well and that you can shoot it well. After that, carry what you can use the best for your particular abilities. Remember too that as you get older, your choices will have to change at some point in time! A man's gotta know his limitations, you know?
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Old 08-23-2018, 12:51 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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In last 20 yrs we have had two people killed with 22s, bang flop
dead. One was a goof that shot a groundhog and wounded it. He
gave it a butt stroke with a semi auto which went off and took
him right under the chin. The other was a old guy sitting on his
porch reading the paper. Some guys were walking down the creek
plinking with 22s. They shot at something and bullet hit the guy
in the back of the head killing him instantly. In both cases there
were others present with the victims when shot, and there was
nothing they could do, DOA. I think some of deaths from 22s are
because people don't have any respect for them, not much more
than a BB gun, in their minds. As many 22s as there are it doesn't surprise me they are #1 for fatalities, no counting the
deaths in the wars.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:07 PM
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The point of defensive pistol carry is to stop an violent attack. Whether the attacker dies an hour later after killing you is irrelevant. Yes the 22lr can be a killer, so can a pointy stick. The issue is does it stop an attack with anything but a headshot & that is often a no.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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The point of defensive pistol carry is to stop an violent attack. Whether the attacker dies an hour later after killing you is irrelevant. Yes the 22lr can be a killer, so can a pointy stick. The issue is does it stop an attack with anything but a headshot & that is often a no.

The question was not if the .22lr could be lethal; I think everyone here would agree a 22lr round can kill a person..... rather...

The question was; is there any factual basis for the often quoted "More people have been killed by the .22lr than any other round."
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:21 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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So many statistics, so little time......kind of a big yawn, who cares, carry the gun that you can use well, etc. I actually have been known to occasionally carry a .22 caliber pistol like a Walther PPK/S .22 or a Walther P-22 and I never felt like it wasn't going to keep my sorry behind out of danger. They are reliable and NO MISCREANT likes getting shot by any caliber! Period.

For nearly 20 years I carried a Beretta 950-BS in .25 ACP. I never worried about that one, either.
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Israeli Mossad /Military also use of suppressed .22 Ruger 10/22 rifles and MK pistols in assassinations come to mind
Let us note that the Mossad used the Beretta Model 70 pistols for their up close and personal assassinations and I assure you that Beretta Model 70s, even as outdated as they are, are still in the hands of the IDF. Whether they use them just for practice or for tourists I can't say but I watched them use them and used one myself when presented with the opportunity in 2015 so I guess someone in the IDF still likes them for something.

And I still like mine and have carried it a time or two as well, now that I think about it.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:34 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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The Navy SEALS have in fact been issued special "dark" Ruger Mark IIs for clandestine operations. This is a yet-unpublished article I wrote a while ago on them. It would appear that the .22 LR round is alive in well in our military. Hope you find this information of interest.

John



These are some of the little known modern pistols used by our armed forces. I myself discovered their existence just a short number of years ago. Very few are in civilian circulation, as the large majority reside in the armories of our elite Navy SEAL teams. They are very special Ruger Mark II pistols made to the exacting specifications of our Special Operations Command. They have not been talked about much before now, so perhaps I can bring you up to speed on them.

Their story began in early 1987, when, according to an inquiry response from Sturm, Ruger and Company, they were approached by a “U.S. government agency” to see if they could produce some specially-modified stainless Mark II .22 pistols. Ruger was subsequently awarded a contract in March of 1987 with the U.S. Navy for a limited number of special stainless steel Mark II pistols. They were in fact destined for issue to U.S. Navy SEAL teams.

One of the specifications called for a “darkened finish” to be applied to all exterior parts. It’s pretty difficult to darken stainless steel, but Ruger did apply what appears to be a sprayed-on and probably baked black finish that somewhat resembles the Parkerizing that has traditionally been applied to U.S. issue standard steel weapons. If you will note from the picture above, all traditionally bright exterior features were blackened. Normally, a portion of the bolt, visible through the ejection port, was left in the white. On this gun, the entire bolt was blackened. Other normally bright parts such as the trigger, grip screws and even the Ruger emblem in the grips were similarly darkened. The finish used on the grip and barrel frames is somewhat fragile, and can be scratched or scraped fairly easily. Interestingly, the last three digits of the serial number were applied at the factory via a small sticker near the base of the magazine for each gun. In this way, each magazine was visibly certified as being test fired in the gun with which it was shipped. I had not noticed one of these stickers until one fell out of the magazine well on the gun I handled when I removed the magazine to clear it. The magazines were totally black with the exception of the loading button on the left side. Even the magazine floorplates, which usually incorporated a contrasting color Ruger emblem, were totally black.

An unusual feature of the gun is its front sight. While at first glance it appears normal for a 5.5” bull-barreled Ruger, it has some subtle differences. Its base is narrower, measuring .250” in width. The specifications for this pistol called for it to be “reinforced,” so it may also have a deeper and/or wider retaining screw at its center. Although the reason for the narrower sight base was not given, I’m pretty sure I know the answer. A number of sound suppressors have been made for specific firearms with non-tapered barrels, using the “slip and twist on” method of attachment. With this type, the front sight does double duty as a sort of bayonet stud which will fit into an L-shaped slot in the suppressor base. If such a suppressor was made and provided for this special gun, it would not fit a normal bull-barreled Ruger pistol, and would in fact be impossible to attach to a civilian gun. The reason for the sight being “reinforced” would mean that it was obviously also used for a purpose other than sighting. Suppressed .22 pistols have been in service with the U.S. military since the Office of Strategic Services employed the Hi-Standard Model U.S.A. H-D MS pistols during WWII. This newer Ruger pistol allows a quickly-employable and detachable suppressor to be used - in effect, a newer twist on an old idea.

The specifications called for no unusual packaging, so these guns were shipped in the regular yellow cardboard Ruger boxes proper for 5.5” bull-barreled Mark II pistols. These boxes had no end labels indicating the pistol type they contained. However, internally, the factory referred to the SEAL pistols as Models “KMK-512B.” The pistols all had standard Ruger markings of that period. Each gun was wrapped in a plastic bag, put into the box, and a standard Mark II instruction booklet was included. These boxes each had a fixed black plastic pillar which entered the trigger guard to anchor the gun in the box. The yellow box was in turn enclosed in a plain brown cardboard shipping box. One end piece of this outer box was marked with the serial number, using a black felt pen.

The unknown number of Navy SEAL guns are believed to have had serial numbers prefaced with 212- or 213- followed by five digits. There are estimated to be approximately 50 (opinions differ – perhaps as high as 84) that are in civilian hands. The reason for their existence is that there was a small overrun of the pistols. These were offered to the Ruger Collectors Association for its members. None were obtainable through general public sales. The pistol illustrated was shipped in February, 1988, as part of the overrun. It was subsequently purchased from a member of the Ruger Collectors Association.

How were these guns to be utilized by the Navy SEALs? It’s part of the record that some special suppressed Smith & Wesson 9mm pistols were furnished to the SEALs during the Vietnam War. They garnered the nickname “hush puppies,” because they were ostensibly intended to be used to silently eliminate enemy guard dogs. Even quieter .22 caliber pistols, on the other hand, make very efficient close range personnel elimination weapons. These are usually employed by shooting an enemy in the head, usually needing only one very quiet and accurate shot. SEALs are routinely trained in covert “extreme predjudice” techniques, and these pistols, equipped with suppressors, would be perfect tools for clandestine missions.

A former SEAL team member told me that he was aware of these pistols, but had never trained to use one. The Heckler & Koch Mk 23 Mod 0 .45 ACP SOCOM pistol can also be equipped with a specialized screw-on sound suppressor, and it was more available for training and use with his particular SEAL team. Although most SEAL deployments are classified, I suspect these .22 pistols have seen little if any active employment in actual missions. However, they are certainly still available if needed as specialized tools of the Special Forces trade.

The existing “dark” Navy Ruger Mark II .22 pistols in civilian hands are few and far between and are not often encountered. However, if you do and are interested in purchasing one, you now know the history of them. Be prepared to use your best negotiating skills, and also expect a hefty asking price if the owner is willing to consider parting with it!

(c) 2018 JLM
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:50 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Well if it hasn't killed more people than any other round you can still bet it's taken more small game than any other round. It's been around over 130 years (1887). A lot longer than most modern day rounds and is still a top selling competitor.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:52 PM
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I suspect that at one time a lot of crooks and such carried the so called (Saturday night git yer killed) 22s like the Rohm, Clerk, and other pot metal guns and they were used in a lot of shootings. When I was on the streets back in the 60s and 70s a lot of our bar fights on Fri. Sat. ended in a regular shoot out at the OK coral. Someone would start shooting and the next thing you know everyone was shooting. I went to one bar fight where there were 7 people shot all with 22s only one died. Afun time was had by all.
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Old 08-23-2018, 04:35 PM
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The point of defensive pistol carry is to stop an violent attack. Whether the attacker dies an hour later after killing you is irrelevant. Yes the 22lr can be a killer, so can a pointy stick. The issue is does it stop an attack with anything but a headshot & that is often a no.
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Old 08-23-2018, 05:11 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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In my years of professional experience, the .22 is not the weapon of choice in homicides or attempted homicides. Yes, many have been killed with a .22, but nowhere near to what have been killed or wounded by a .38 Special/.357 Magnum, 9mm, and .45 Auto. A gun is a status symbol to the criminal street gangs, and a .22 doesn't have a lot of status. This is just my experience.
I think your experience is valid. Back in Jordan's day, there were a lot of cheap .22 revolvers floating around. Anybody else familiar with the term "Saturday Night Special"?
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:17 PM
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It has been said, "the mob used the 22 for back of the head and in the ear shots for years." They were cheap, could be semi silenced, and when the deed was done just throw it in the river and if needed again buy another cheap one.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:46 PM
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If the measure of lethality for .22s is based on the number of .22s in possession, then one could just as accurately state more people survive being shot by .22s than other calibers also.
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Old 08-23-2018, 07:08 PM
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I got shot with a 22LR......


It didn't stop me and I haven't succumbed to it.................yet




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Old 08-23-2018, 07:47 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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I got shot with a 22LR......


It didn't stop me and I haven't succumbed to it.................yet .
Me too, and I've still got the marks on my butt to prove it. Of course, it was a pass through and probably didn't touch any muscle along the way, and it was a long way away from the bone! My uniform pants and my skivvies were also severely traumatized. But it sure did stir up that adipose tissue on the trip through. It's a long story, and not one of my finest moments, but I can now look back on it and smile! But I don't tell more than that without being paid!
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:49 PM
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If the measure of lethality for .22s is based on the number of .22s in possession, then one could just as accurately state more people survive being shot by .22s than other calibers also.
Only if everyone with a .22 takes a shot at someone. . .
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:24 PM
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I had a 17 or 18 year old hot head that worked for me one summer and fall ca.1975. His sister was in a motherly way and he insisted the father take responsibility. He got shot point blank in the chest with some form of 22 RF, just before he beat the father into submission. Then he ran over 1.5 miles to a nurse's house and collapsed on her front porch, she got him to an emergency room and he spent the next 3 weeks in the hospital. His 19 year old moron brother worked for me at the same time and told me why he wouldn't be at work!

I have use a 22 revolver to euthanize many sick and injured animals, but always right between or just behind the ears. For dealing with wounded animals that are still on the prowl, I use 12 gauge with buck or slugs, whichever may be best!

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Old 08-23-2018, 10:58 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Or the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev round, assuming that is what Stalin, Mao, and the boys used for "persuasive political" purposes...
Actually Vasily Blokin, Stalin's (Yegoda, Yezhov and Beria) NKVD executioner preferred the 5.65 mm (.25acp) Walther PP and supposedly carried around a briefcase full of them and German ammunition to feed them.

PS the .25acp was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the
22LR from a pocket pistol, with a 50 percent heavier, internally lubricated or jacketed bullet and a more reliable centerfire ignition system.
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:29 AM
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Didn't the city of Chicago just set a new record with 9mm?
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Old 08-24-2018, 03:31 AM
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Friend was hit by a 22LR round while mowing his yard ..

Hit him in the right rear of his head as you looked at him .. didn't go through his skull but did break it and caused some damage that had to be repaired by a brain surgeon .. the bullet was found under the skin just behind his ear .. he spent 9 days in the hospital .. and about 3 weeks off work due to severe headaches ..

Police at the time thought it was some kids shooting in a creek across the road from his house .. others including myself and him think it was a assassination attempt by a rival motorcycle gang for some undisclosed reasons ..

He's now retired in Arizona somewhere ..
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Old 08-24-2018, 10:59 AM
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The question was not if the .22lr could be lethal; I think everyone here would agree a 22lr round can kill a person..... rather...

The question was; is there any factual basis for the often quoted "More people have been killed by the .22lr than any other round."
Consider that the 22lr in some form or another, was one of the first cartridges manuf, first smokeless manuf, what 140y ago? Good bet it has killed a bunch of people.
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Old 08-24-2018, 05:41 PM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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^^^I am going to guess that the most common caliber of civilian firearm is .22LR. People who have one gun, or a hundred, who honk the .45, or .44, .357 or .38, .223 or .308 or .270, probably all own .22s. Everyone I know, who owns at least one gun owns a .22LR. I bet a lot get picked up to investigate the sound of breaking glass at 2 am.^^^
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Old 08-25-2018, 10:08 AM
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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^^^I am going to guess that the most common caliber of civilian firearm is .22LR. People who have one gun, or a hundred, who honk the .45, or .44, .357 or .38, .223 or .308 or .270, probably all own .22s. Everyone I know, who owns at least one gun owns a .22LR. I bet a lot get picked up to investigate the sound of breaking glass at 2 am.^^^
That brings back an old memory. I took a call about a B&E. There were two young college students sharing a small house. One of them who slept on a couch in the living room, woke up in the middle of the night to some sounds and saw the silhouette of a man standing in the doorway of the back door. He grabbed his .22 rifle, which he kept nearby, and fired a shot. The silhouette disappeared. There was no evidence of him hitting anything, but it made the criminal flee. Of course, there very likely might not have been a blood trail left from a .22 LR wound.
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Old 08-25-2018, 05:23 PM
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No, the .22LR has not killed more than any other round.
Yes, the .22LR is just as potentially lethal as any other caliber.
Yes, shot placement is the key.

None of that changes my opinion for self-defense; carry the tool that you're most effective with. If that's a .22LR pistol, carry that. Even so, I'm unlikely to recommend the .22LR for self-defense.
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Old 08-25-2018, 08:56 PM
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I'm of the opinion that it's best to start out with the easiest and mildest caliber gun first and then work up, rather than starting out too big and having to work down with someone who is now scared to pull the trigger!

I'm in full agreement with Rastoff here!
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Old 08-25-2018, 09:48 PM
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When I was a rookie cop in 1968 we saw a lot of cheap .22 Rohn revolvers and they killed a lot of people. I responded to one fight where a huge guy lay dead in his front yard, but no one saw anything and there wasn’t a mark on him. Got the victim to the hospital and the docs found a puncture wound in his hairy armpit. An xray revealed a .22 round had entered and traveled into his heart, dropping him on the spot.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:01 PM
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I don’t know about the real world, but in the realm of big western Indian reservations it is certainly true. I worked the Blackfeet (Montana), Duck Valley and Fort Hall (Idaho), Navajo and Jicarilla Apache (New Mexico) reservations, and the hands down favorite murder firearm was the humble .22 repeating rifle. The Marlin Model 60 was the front-runner, followed closely by the Ruger 10/22, with that cheap Canadian/Savage semi-auto that would go on sale at Big 5 for about $150 a distant third.

Handgun shootings were rare, though I had a few. Some shotguns, usually sawed off single shots. A few high-powered rifles - lever action 30/30s and milsurp bolt actions. But the .22 semi-auto rifle was the king.

Every shooting I had with a .22 repeating rifle was a fatality. Every one. I was knocking back beers with a bunch of other Indian Country agents once at some training, and they all said the same thing. If an Indian dude decided you needed killing and he fetched his Marlin, you better be right with your higher power.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:26 PM
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More people are killed by knives and fists, but I prefer .357 Sig.
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Old 08-25-2018, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
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Actually Vasily Blokin, Stalin's (Yegoda, Yezhov and Beria) NKVD executioner preferred the 5.65 mm (.25acp) Walther PP and supposedly carried around a briefcase full of them and German ammunition to feed them.

PS the .25acp was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the
22LR from a pocket pistol, with a 50 percent heavier, internally lubricated or jacketed bullet and a more reliable centerfire ignition system.
I have written about Blokhin several times previously. He was Joe Stalin's executioner and took his orders from him. His usual weapon was a .25 Walther and his usual method was one shot to the back of the head. It is said that he carried a briefcase of pistols which his assistants kept loaded while he was conducting mass executions. One reason he preferred the .25 is that it didn't hurt his hands from recoil during long periods of shooting. You can read more about him here: Vasily Blokhin: This Is How the USSR Turned the Greatest Executioner in History into a Hero

PS - FDR knew all about the executions conducted in the Katyn Forest but decided at the time to make nothing of it in the interest of keeping the Russian-American alliance intact. In fact, there was a huge number of Stalin's nefarious activities that FDR knew of but overlooked because he believed that deep down, Stalin was really a good guy and wanted to keep him fighting the Germans. At Yalta, Stalin made Roosevelt concede to about everything Stalin wanted to do after the war ended, mainly because FDR was basically a corpse in a wheelchair by that time.

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Old 08-26-2018, 12:32 AM
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I'm not aware of any factual statements backed up by evidence regarding this assertion. My guess is that it's based on the assumption that the .22 is widespread, even in locations around the world where other/larger calibers are heavily regulated or banned. If you accept that, then it would stand to reason that more people are killed by it just based on it's wider availability.
I TEND TO AGREE WITH THIS. SOMETIMES A SUPPRESSED .22LR COULD BE THE WEAPON OF CHOICE, FOR SOME BLACK OPS WET WORK. I THINK THAT THE LETHALITY OF THE DIMINUTIVE CALIBER IS UNDERESTIMATED---BUT SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY ! ! !

THERE IS A PLETHORA OF VIDEOS ON YOU TUBE FEATURING HUNTERS KILLING EVERYTHING FROM SQUIRRELS TO WILD TURKEYS TO DEER---BUT ESPECIALLY WILD BOAR. THERE ARE MORE WILD HOG HUNT VIDEOS THAN ANYTHING ELSE. HAVING HUNTED WILD BOAR ON FOOT WITH AN 8" COLT PYTHON, I KNOW HOW TOUGH THEY ARE.....

I WOULD NEVER FACE ONE ON THE GROUND, WITH A WEAPON IN .22 LR. I HAD TO STOP A DETERMINED CHARGE AT ME, BY A VERY ANGRY 300+ POUND BOAR, THAT HAD ALREADY HAD HIS FRONT LEG COMPLETELY SHATTERED, BY A ROUND OF .357 MAG. A .22LR WAS NOT GOING TO DROP HIM. THE BOAR KILLS ARE USUALLY WITH SCOPED RIFLES, OUT OF ELEVATED STANDS, OVER BAIT. STILL, THE HOGS ARE BIG AND THE KILLS ARE IMPRESSIVE......

ONCE AGAIN, SHOT PLACEMENT IS KEY---AS IT CERTAINLY WOULD BE AGAINST A HUMAN TARGET.....
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Last edited by one eye joe; 08-26-2018 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:18 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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As a regular reader of the Armed Citizen in NRA's American Rifleman,
it seems to me that most homeowners are relying on the .38 Spl. for
defense. That includes me BTW.
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:21 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
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More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ???? More people killed by .22lr than any other round ????  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALADIN85020 View Post
The Navy SEALS have in fact been issued special "dark" Ruger Mark IIs for clandestine operations. This is a yet-unpublished article I wrote a while ago on them. It would appear that the .22 LR round is alive in well in our military. Hope you find this information of interest.

John



These are some of the little known modern pistols used by our armed forces. I myself discovered their existence just a short number of years ago. Very few are in civilian circulation, as the large majority reside in the armories of our elite Navy SEAL teams. They are very special Ruger Mark II pistols made to the exacting specifications of our Special Operations Command. They have not been talked about much before now, so perhaps I can bring you up to speed on them.

Their story began in early 1987, when, according to an inquiry response from Sturm, Ruger and Company, they were approached by a “U.S. government agency” to see if they could produce some specially-modified stainless Mark II .22 pistols. Ruger was subsequently awarded a contract in March of 1987 with the U.S. Navy for a limited number of special stainless steel Mark II pistols. They were in fact destined for issue to U.S. Navy SEAL teams.

One of the specifications called for a “darkened finish” to be applied to all exterior parts. It’s pretty difficult to darken stainless steel, but Ruger did apply what appears to be a sprayed-on and probably baked black finish that somewhat resembles the Parkerizing that has traditionally been applied to U.S. issue standard steel weapons. If you will note from the picture above, all traditionally bright exterior features were blackened. Normally, a portion of the bolt, visible through the ejection port, was left in the white. On this gun, the entire bolt was blackened. Other normally bright parts such as the trigger, grip screws and even the Ruger emblem in the grips were similarly darkened. The finish used on the grip and barrel frames is somewhat fragile, and can be scratched or scraped fairly easily. Interestingly, the last three digits of the serial number were applied at the factory via a small sticker near the base of the magazine for each gun. In this way, each magazine was visibly certified as being test fired in the gun with which it was shipped. I had not noticed one of these stickers until one fell out of the magazine well on the gun I handled when I removed the magazine to clear it. The magazines were totally black with the exception of the loading button on the left side. Even the magazine floorplates, which usually incorporated a contrasting color Ruger emblem, were totally black.

An unusual feature of the gun is its front sight. While at first glance it appears normal for a 5.5” bull-barreled Ruger, it has some subtle differences. Its base is narrower, measuring .250” in width. The specifications for this pistol called for it to be “reinforced,” so it may also have a deeper and/or wider retaining screw at its center. Although the reason for the narrower sight base was not given, I’m pretty sure I know the answer. A number of sound suppressors have been made for specific firearms with non-tapered barrels, using the “slip and twist on” method of attachment. With this type, the front sight does double duty as a sort of bayonet stud which will fit into an L-shaped slot in the suppressor base. If such a suppressor was made and provided for this special gun, it would not fit a normal bull-barreled Ruger pistol, and would in fact be impossible to attach to a civilian gun. The reason for the sight being “reinforced” would mean that it was obviously also used for a purpose other than sighting. Suppressed .22 pistols have been in service with the U.S. military since the Office of Strategic Services employed the Hi-Standard Model U.S.A. H-D MS pistols during WWII. This newer Ruger pistol allows a quickly-employable and detachable suppressor to be used - in effect, a newer twist on an old idea.

The specifications called for no unusual packaging, so these guns were shipped in the regular yellow cardboard Ruger boxes proper for 5.5” bull-barreled Mark II pistols. These boxes had no end labels indicating the pistol type they contained. However, internally, the factory referred to the SEAL pistols as Models “KMK-512B.” The pistols all had standard Ruger markings of that period. Each gun was wrapped in a plastic bag, put into the box, and a standard Mark II instruction booklet was included. These boxes each had a fixed black plastic pillar which entered the trigger guard to anchor the gun in the box. The yellow box was in turn enclosed in a plain brown cardboard shipping box. One end piece of this outer box was marked with the serial number, using a black felt pen.

The unknown number of Navy SEAL guns are believed to have had serial numbers prefaced with 212- or 213- followed by five digits. There are estimated to be approximately 50 (opinions differ – perhaps as high as 84) that are in civilian hands. The reason for their existence is that there was a small overrun of the pistols. These were offered to the Ruger Collectors Association for its members. None were obtainable through general public sales. The pistol illustrated was shipped in February, 1988, as part of the overrun. It was subsequently purchased from a member of the Ruger Collectors Association.

How were these guns to be utilized by the Navy SEALs? It’s part of the record that some special suppressed Smith & Wesson 9mm pistols were furnished to the SEALs during the Vietnam War. They garnered the nickname “hush puppies,” because they were ostensibly intended to be used to silently eliminate enemy guard dogs. Even quieter .22 caliber pistols, on the other hand, make very efficient close range personnel elimination weapons. These are usually employed by shooting an enemy in the head, usually needing only one very quiet and accurate shot. SEALs are routinely trained in covert “extreme predjudice” techniques, and these pistols, equipped with suppressors, would be perfect tools for clandestine missions.

A former SEAL team member told me that he was aware of these pistols, but had never trained to use one. The Heckler & Koch Mk 23 Mod 0 .45 ACP SOCOM pistol can also be equipped with a specialized screw-on sound suppressor, and it was more available for training and use with his particular SEAL team. Although most SEAL deployments are classified, I suspect these .22 pistols have seen little if any active employment in actual missions. However, they are certainly still available if needed as specialized tools of the Special Forces trade.

The existing “dark” Navy Ruger Mark II .22 pistols in civilian hands are few and far between and are not often encountered. However, if you do and are interested in purchasing one, you now know the history of them. Be prepared to use your best negotiating skills, and also expect a hefty asking price if the owner is willing to consider parting with it!

(c) 2018 JLM

I, for one, found it very interesting. Wondering if, when, &
where it will be published?
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