640-1 loaded with Speer 135gr Gold Dot .38+P riding in a IHL pocket holster for me, most of the time. My other snub is a 3" 13-2 K frame.

Attached Images

Model 13-2 and 640-1.jpg (89.9 KB, 80 views)

__________________
Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat

I now carry a Ruger LCR.38 for most out of the house carry. If things are OK and I'm in a area I fell comfortable with that little gun is in a pocket holster.

Now going into the city or if situation dictates I will now have a .45 XDs with me.

For about 4 years, back in the late 70s my only carry gun that went everywhere with me was a Model 60.38 and I felt I was well armed!

__________________
14 S&W Revs none with locks!

It depends on the scenario. For what I'm likely to encounter, the snub makes the most sense overall and is actually the most efficient and effective choice IMO.

Consider the following incident. Would you be able to better access, deploy, retain and get off multiple shots with something like a Glock 19 or a hammerless snub revolver? If in doubt, maybe try running a force-on-force scenario drill simulation of the event with both auto and revolver sim guns and see what happens.

No, nothing short of an X Frame will ever be enough. Go big or stay home!

But seriously, first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, whether you have "enough gun" is up to you. Personally, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a .38 Special.

It's enough for me most of the time but you need to answer that question for yourself.
Just based on the fact that you asked, maybe you don't think it's enough?
99% of the time I carry either a j frame or my LCP. In my situation and the environments I travel in I think it's enough for me. Occasionally I will up my defenses to a Glock 26 if I'm going into a what I perceive as a more threatening environment than my normal travels.
I don't generally carry while around the house so throughout the day I may grab the gun and remove the gun multiple times as I go out shopping or walking, so pocket carry is the easiest method to achieve that, no belt or belt holster to mess with, just slip the gun (and pocket holster) in and out of my pocket, no more difficult than my wallet. If I was a person that woke up in the morning, got dressed and put my belt and gun on and kept it on all day then I would probably pocket carry a lot less but for me pocket carry is so much more convenient.
You need to figure out what works for you, do you put the gun on and wear it all day, do you remove it multiple times a day, do you live in/or visit a dangerous area or is your life relatively danger free?

Really????

Sure, why not?

It can be enough. It might not be enough.

(I did not cast a vote because it's not black and white. I carry my J around home and environs. I carry a Glock (19 or 26) when I leave home and go elsewhere.)

__________________
642-1, M&P15 TS

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, and I totally get the insistence on carrying a bigger gun. But your examples of two guys that would not carry a j frame anymore, are somehow alive to tell us that. If I were in a gunfight, I'd want more too. Always. But therein lies the rub. We sacrifice some capacity for portability, to be there all the time. Because we don't get in gunfights all the time. But if I were in gunfights all the time, there's no way I'd get up in the morning and think a J frame is all I'd ever need.

Always happens when folks don't want to talk about or ignore the more important issues! Shoot what you want. It's really your choice! But the proof will be in the pudding if the flag ever flys for any of us. First rule still is, "Have a gun!"

__________________
So long ... Ken

It’s all a big “IF” if I’m attacked, if I seek cover, if I trained enough, if I have my normal 2 carry J-Frames. I’ve carried since 2004. So far what I carry has worked. I haven’t needed it.

__________________
Two Handguns every day

This was surveillance video of a group attack in a parking garage or near it. I don't think the publicly available story stated it was a group mugging, an assault or if was gang related. In any case, it doesn't appear there would have been time to draw any firearm, but better situational awareness on the part of the victims may have helped.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

You draw while engaged, but very few people who conceal carry have much understanding or training in ECQ skills. Situational awareness is a given, but no matter how tuned in an individual is to their environment, there is always the potential of having to reactively respond to an ambush.

I voted yes simply because I carry one most of the time.
Sitting at home I have a 442 in my pocket with a speed loader in my
other pocket.
When out and about I carry it along with 2-4 speed loaders and a larger handgun, revolver or auto.
I like a larger gun and carry them often, but not having this little Airweight on me just don't feel right.

I think the J frame is a fine choice. When I'm working I rely on a 64-2 or a SP-101 with a 340 for a back up. Off the clock I rely on the 340 or my 12-2 snub.

__________________
Wheel guns are real guns.

I just read a post today over at Claude Werner's site, The Tactical Professor, that seems germane to the topic. The takeaway that stuck with me is the quote, "It's not the ammunition on your body that will save your life, it's the ammunition that you've fired in practice that will save you." There's some truth to that. If you can't hit where you're aiming, even if you have a Glock 34 with a 23-round magazine in the well and two 33 rounders on your belt, you will run out of time long before you run out of ammo. Without decent software, even the best hardware isn't very useful. Any tool will do if you will do | tacticalprofessor

My disclaimer. Not an expert. Never been in a gunfight. Hope I never have to be. Even though I hope it never happens, hope isn't much of a strategy, so I try to be prepared if it ever does.

I've done a couple force-on-force sessions at close distance. My take away from those sessions were when things are really close, say 6 feet or less, there are a couple things about a snub that are an advantage over larger semi-autos.

1. It was easier to knock a G26 out of my hand than the snub. The shorter barrel and full grip on the snub (compared to the longer slide/shorter grip on the G26) gave the BG actor less leverage and made it harder for the BG actor to knock the snub out of my hand.

2. The shorter barrel on the snub makes the draw stroke for the barrel to clear the holster, immediately rotate to the bad guy, and fire quicker than with either a G26 or a G19. It's only fractions of a second, but I keep seeing people post that in a real gunfight, when you're up close, fractions of a second count.

I think snub nose revolvers have a lot of pluses. That was what I found anyway. YMMV.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

I have slipped a J Frame in my pocket before while running out for a quick trip to the store and back. Every time I did however, I didn't get a mile down the road without thinking that "this will be the day a need a gun and THIS is what I decided to bet my life on!" No thanks! The J Frames make great back-up guns but IMO leave a lot to be desired as a primary carry gun.

It is probably location specific around the o****ry, but for me, 5 shots from a pocket holster isn't getting it done in general. Yes you are probably fine for 99% of situations you find your self but then there will be the 1% & Murphy says that you are just as likely to end up in that 1%. So for me neither pocket carry or a 5-6 shot small gun is "enough". A Shield or G26 or P365 isn't much bigger or heavier but probably not pocket friendly.
Something else to consider for those that actually train & practice. It is a terrible idea to train & practice with one gun at say 3:30, OWB holster, then routinely carry a snub in your pocket. When the poop starts, close & fast, you are very likely to pause because it isn't a natural muscle response you have done 1000s times. I see this often in training sessions with shooters switching both guns & carry positions. SO if the pocketed snub is your choice, practice & train with it that way, a lot.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I always felt comfortable carrying my Baby Chief with a cartridge strip
Occasionally just drop it in my pocket.
Wife too!

__________________
"from my cold dead hands" C.H.

I hope so, otherwise I am in big trouble.

__________________
Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

So, where are all these civilian self-defense incidents where it was necessary to fire a large number of rounds(or just more than the capacity of a revolver) to escape the encounter or stop the threat? Even if they constituted a mere 1%, that would actually be a fairly substantial number of cases that should be relatively easy to find, yet nobody has ever produced them.

Capacity and reload speed is the autoloaders primary supposed advantages, but I can find absolutely no evidence that they actually would be of any advantage. The hammerless snub is the superior weapon at contact distances and I know of no instructor whose focus is in that area or even anyone with a fair amount of intensive training in ECQ defensive shooting who would dispute it. You can go on YouTube and find numerous new stories involving civilians using firearms involving contact between them and the assailant(s)as well as countless incidents where the shots would have to be made at contact distances, if the defender had been armed, but I still have been unable to find more than a couple of high round count incidents.

I have no loyalty to revolvers and view them as tools. If I deem the autoloader the superior defense weapon for protecting myself and my family, I'd switch to carrying one. However, no one has ever been able to provide a substantial number of examples that demonstrate the need for capacity and easier reloads trumps the close-quarter advantages of the enclosed hammer revolver in the context of civilian self-defense. To me, it doesn't make any sense to trade away the inherent advantages(of the snub revolver) that will more likely be useful for traits(capacity and reloading) that won't likely be of any benefit.

Well it's definitely pretty!

And why do people get so defensive about their choices? Op asked for an opinion. IF we all live by the 99% rule, none of us would even carry a gun of any kind. IF the semiauto was NOT superior, it would have likely never been invented.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I EDC a M640 and a reload. It is a practicle comprimise between protection and ease of carry.

If I KNEW I was going to get into a gunfight, I would wear a kevlar lid, ceramic armor, carry a laser target designator and an AR for backup. (And have a good friend overhead in an Apache.)

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

Some people do indeed get defensive, but some folks like me want to discuss and debate the issue to determine the validity of their thinking and their choice. Just as not all opinions are equally valid, nor do I think all weapon choices are when it comes to personal defense. I like hearing alternative points of view to see if my perspective holds up to challenges. An individual should be able to articulate the reasons why they chose the weapon they carry and point to evidence and facts that support it.

In terms of military and police use, the auto is superior for the most part, but that's not what is being discussed here.

Some people only look for information that supports their choice when they should also be questioning it. Who knows, maybe I'll decide I'm wrong at some point and start carrying a Glock, but anytime I ask for evidence supporting a realistic need to carry a higher capacity weapon with quick reloads, nobody provides any and I have yet been unable to find anything definitive or substantial myself.

Objection.

Asked and answered.

In many forums.

For many years.

After trying different approaches, I’ve decided on a hybrid. Similar to a different thread from a while back - it works for me. It’ll continue to evolve.

From when I get up until I go to bed, I have an LCP in my front pocket in a Mika pocket hoster. It’s small. It can go anywhere it’s legal, pretty much regardless of what I’m wearing. It’s as normal as my wallet or watch or pocket knife.

When I go somewhere, I add a 640 cross draw IWB. The LCP becomes my stand-alone speedstrip. I like the redundancy of two small pistols over one larger one.

My home defense gun is a Glock 19. It’s rare, but occasionally I’ll substitute the Glock for the J. In the car, after midnight, can’t help but drive through a really bad neighborhood - the G19 gets the nod.

I shoot all three regularly.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Only one time I wished I had more. Me and the wife were leaving downtown st Louis late at night and we took a wrong turn and all of a sudden the street was crowded with people. Would have felt better with a hi cap 9 and a bag of mags.

Took a little time to get used to the recoil, but this is my EDC

First year 342PD

Well, 30+ years ago I carried a J frame off duty in the St. Louis area, until I bought the then just released 669 (On duty back-up was a Backup ). I sure as heck wouldn't be wandering around St. Louis now days with only a J frame, if I had a better alternative. The tone of the neighborhoods changes quickly. I have a 9mm stashed up there now waiting for my next return visit as that sure beats the airport hassle. The J frame was the cats meow, until better stuff came along. Don't misunderstand and think I'm a 9mm fanatic. I actually prefer things that start with a 4. But whatever floats your boat.

Like the Ford Pinto?

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

I feel adequately equipped for normal self-defense situations with my 649.
If you are expecting a firefight, seriously, find another route or stay home.
If I am going to dangerous places and cannot avoid it, I will likely take my shortie 1911, but that is a rare occasion.

My only carry gun since 2000 has been a 640 no-dash with the older (hotter) version of the FBI load or the Buffalo Bore equivalent. I've always felt adequately protected, partly because of avoiding dicey places and dicey people. No bars, for one thing.

Now, in old age and declining health, and no longer driving, I feel even more comfortable carrying the J-fame.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

That is the most profound statement I have read this week!

I can provide some evidence along those lines if you're still looking.

__________________
Stay protected my friends.

Absolutely.

North St. Louis is not a place you want to be exploring at night.
In CC class they told us don't go any place with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun. We ended up there by mistake.

There are plenty of instances of multiple attackers on unarmed victims. you don't have to do much extrapolation to figure out more gun/ammo would be better than less.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Nice try but the pinto was not an invention but a spin off of something already out, a car.
Hey I love revolvers, my first gun was a m19 & I still have it 42y later, that & dozens of others, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the superiority of a semi in just about any defensive situation. Yes even at contact distances. Where the revo really shines is raw horsepower as in the 41, 44 & heavy 45cotl offerings. Notice & did not include 357amg, one of my favorites, but the 10mm is pretty much a 357mag on steroids & we have the 357sig.
Reality, most people carry a gun to feel comfy. many have little skill to use it or even deploy it quickly enough to defend themselves in violent surprise attack. many will miss more than they will land so 5 shot j-frame may be just fine for feeling comfy but very few would actually choose one if they new they had a high chance of being involved in a gunfight.

__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

I've lived in St Louis and in St.Charles Co. I've spent a lot of time in St. Louis. Met wife and married there. If you live in St. Louis or even greater St. Louis (mainly St. Louis County) you can't navigate the metro area without going through areas you'd want to be well armed in should you have a flat. That's just the way it is.

The St.Louis metro area is made up of, in addition to St.Louis City proper, many smaller municipalities that in most places would be part of the city proper. Think Ferguson and many like it. All with their own PDs of wildly varying competence. Go to the mall and cross sketchy areas. Go to the doctor and cross sketchy areas. Go to the West End and cross sketchy areas. Go to Ted Drewes and cross sketchy areas. Go to the stadium and cross sketchy areas. You get the idea.

I actually like St. Louis. Yeah, a snubbie 38 special is probably enough, but maybe not. Isn't the maybe not exactly why you carry to start with. Everyone has to make their own compromises. My compromise scale is obviously different from most here.

However, unless things have changed drastically, you were probably better off taking a wrong turn on that side of the river than just across it. My wife still has the nice scar from the innocent (mostly) wrong turn she and friends took across the river in IL in the late 70s. The bullet missed her but the shrapnel from the glass caused by the bullet didn't.

PS: And, by the way, it was probably some rascally Illinoisan that stole my motorcycle in Edwardsville.

Care to explain?

Every time you guys talk about traveling through St Louis, all I can think about is the scene from "Vacation":


Best Regards, Les

__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Sure. If Platt and Matix had both had HK91s or FALs and 6-10 mags, there would have been a lot more dead agents. So, yes, the type of gun is important.

Unfortunately the nice thick book I have on the shootout is at home, but I'm 100% sure that more than one agent came only armed with a L or K frame (686 or 13) plus a J frame backup. We clearly both agree that you bring a rifle to an extended gunfight with multiple bad guys, not two wheelguns, even in 1986.

__________________
Psalm 27:2

I didn't vote either because, it depends. There's a lot of variables, one makes one's choices. Would not be my first choice. Nor, come to think about it, my second choice.

Couple of variables off the top of my head: number of assailants, presence of bystanders/unseen locals who may become agitated, speed of LE response, does your cell phone (you do have it with you, right?) connect directly to the local LE agency. The list can go on.

In Tom Givens book "Fighting Smarter", starting at page 99, of the 60+ student shootings he gathered info on, the average number of rounds fired was 3.8. The min was 1 and the max was 12. His quote is "there were several in the 8 to 12 range" (which also means there were a lot of 2's and 3's).

~5% of the self defense shootings were 3 yards or less. ~5% were over 7 yards. ~90% were 3 to 7 yards.

The curve is skewed right. It would be interesting to have the actual data to calculate the probability for shots above 5.

While I feel comfortable carrying my 640, his info is one of the reasons I decided that a Ruger LCP makes a better speed strip than the Bianchi ones.

__________________
Vegan by proxy.

My wife and I always get into this argument before we leave the house. I say she should carry the MG34 and one 50 round drum in her purse, while I carry the second barrel and two 250 round cans in my back pack. She claims that my offer to hold the bipod as she fires off my shoulder is just an excuse to wear earplugs 24/7/365.

So we usually just carry my M640 and her M49 and a couple speed strips to be reasonable, to always carry a weapon that can be readily deployed and to maintain the peace in the family.

If you ALWAYS carry a G22 or a 70series, that is great, if you SOMETIMES carry a G19, JMO you are better off ALWAYS carrying a Seecamp or RM380.

__________________
Certified Curmudgeon

This question comes around almost as often as the caliber question.
Whether any gun is enough depends on the situation which we wonder can we really prepare in the best way for.

Any gun you can shoot accurately and comfortably carry should be enough gun. If you are in a shoot out then no matter what handgun you are carrying it probably will not be enough.

In my opinion a 38 spl in a snub is enough for self protection. You possibly will not go deaf shooting a 38 spl but shooting a 357 magnum is another story. Perhaps we need think when is a gun more than enough.

What is the crime like in Los Vegas ?? are there many street robberies or are there drive by shootings happening regularly ?? If those answers are yes .. Yes you might .. if
you live in sleepy town USA then probably no ..

I live in the center of the state of Illinois .. about half way between St Louis and Chicago .. We get Perps from both places hiding out from the law there, here .. We have had several Perp's from those areas and others areas killed here in the Peoria area ..

I carry a Beretta PX4 Sub Compact 13+1with an extra mag on my off side .. And wonder when there have been multiple people killed there if I am under gunned .. and if I should be carrying something with 17 rounds and an extra mag .. I have to frequent across the river for shopping and several of my doctors are there ..

So really depends on where you are and what the crime is like in the areas you frequent !!

And I know what everyone says that the statistic say most self defense use of a pistol is under three rounds under 5 feet ..

But what if you are not A STATISTIC and are one where more then 5 rounds are needed on multiple Perp's with guns ..

Are you willing to take that chance ?? on a five shot ??

I'm not because of where I live !!!

I would love to have a hi cap 9mm but darn it, I just can't buy every thing I want. Next time I go to STL I'm taking my usual S&W 638 AND my Taurus 605.
Why did God give me two front pockets if He didn't want me to carry guns in them?
Or else I could put the S&W in a pocket and the Taurus on my hip.

It would be great to have a compiled list of ALL the self-defense shootings from year to year - including accurate information on how many rounds were fired. That would enable us to calculate percentages and determine "optimal" (and by default, less than optimal) number of rounds to carry. But even then it would STILL depend on what type of situation one found themselves in as to whether they were sufficiently armed, and that is an *unknowable* variable.

Even in quiet, low-crime areas the possibility of a situation that requires more than 5 rounds exist. Conversely, crime ridden areas have many situations that are solved by LESS than 5 rounds. So who can say?

In my opinion what it all comes down to is that personal decision on how much risk one is willing to take on 5 rounds being enough. My hope is that we will never know if we're right or wrong.

__________________
Stay protected my friends.