Someone had the Taurus PT111G2 on sale the other day for right at $200. I won't claim it's the worlds best gun but they hold 12+1, have an acceptable trigger, and decent sights and reasonable combat accuracy. They are pretty light, carry well AIWB, feel good in the hand and seem to have a durable finish. I like them a lot when bought cheap but I essentially consider them disposable. Taurus won't sell many or most parts requiring a return to factory for repair. By the time you add shipping, parts and service you should probably just buy another one instead. It's a great gun if you have to lock it in your car frequently. If it gets stolen it's much less painful than having the nice Kimber, etc. go missing. Plus you don't cry when it gets scratched.

I'm not saying it's the best budget option but IMHO it's a very good budget option.

As long as you're confident in your ability and comfortable with it, I don't see the problem. Only you know your ability, not anyone on this forum.

I'm very interested in stats, but we also have to be cautious about what they do and don't cover and how they are gathered. Most are severely lacking in providing the details which are important to get a better understanding as to what's actually occuring and is probable.

In the Claude Werner study(5,000 incidents)he states..."The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared the defenders initial response was to fire until empty." So, it sounds as if firing those rounds wasn't actually necessary, but the reaction of a panicked shooter. Regardless it was in a very few number of incidents that it occurred.

Werner also says reloading occurred in 3 incidents, but mentioned "one of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver." Are the other 2 as irrelevant and ridiculous? And what are his sources?

https://tacticalprofessor.files.word...r-w-tables.pdf

Another thing to keep in mind in regard to the Werner stats is that they only cover incidents where the defender was successful.

I see the potential for needing more than five rounds being there, but it is still extremely improbable, and for me, it doesn't override the advantages that the snub revolver offers in close-quarter scenarios. It's simply a trade-off and one that I think favors the revolver. What trait(s) is more important and likely to be of advantage is the pertinent question. I do own several Glocks, but they are primarily reserved for home and hotel defense where I have more lead time and can't easily escape the situation and have to make a stand. Even so, I still wouldn't really feel inadequately armed with only revolvers.

A lot has been said about how choices should differ in high crime areas, but I don't see it that way. I travel to numerous major U.S. cities every year. I head to Atlanta in a few weeks and then onto Miami. After that St.Louis, Chicago, Nashville, Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati. I don't think I'm all that likely to encounter different types of crime, simply a greater chance of it compared to lower risk areas. Reactive close-quarter ambushes are still the most likely threats. If I was so unlucky to be involved in an active-shooter scenario, drive-by or get in-between a gang shoot-out, I'm probably somewhere I shouldn't have been in the first place, but regardless, I'm going to get out as quickly as possible, not hang around and engage.

And I would rather carry two airweight snubs than an auto if capacity is a nagging concern, even if that concern is not substantiated.

Considering most violence(assaults, muggings, robberies, carjackings) is perpetuated(with fists, knives, guns, impact weapons)at very close distances, reliability in that environment is paramount to me and I just don't have a lot of trust semi-autos in ECQ scenarios. And it's not a training issue or something that can be overcome IMO. Mitigated yes, but there are still glaring inherent differences between revolver and autoloaders. If someone honestly believes they can hold a #2 position for any length of time against an aggressive assailant(or two) at contact distances, they aren't living in reality. Any retention or compressed shooting position is temporary and transitory to me, but that is not how most instructors are teaching it.

In the first segment of this video, the instructor lets students actively try to disarm him. I don't know him or anything about him, but kudos, because how many instructors do you see doing this? And what I see going on is pretty similar to what I've observed over the years running ECQ force-on-force drills.

Ever since reading it takes 13 rounds to stop an escaped lion I've carried an 8 round speed strip with my 6 shot 431PD.

That gives me 14 rounds of 32 h&r magnum -- so I have one extra round if I unexpectedly come upon a lion.

...or in case you miss.

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Stay protected my friends.

Like the man at the carnival said..."Ya pays ya money, ya takes ya chances".

Come on X, really? Lets see, easier to be proficient with, faster reloads, more ammo, generally flatter & easier to conceal. In just about ever situation a semi will perform better than a revo. I am a revo guy but reality sets in at some point.
The only place I could say a revo is superior is power. 41mag, 44mag & heavy 45colt, revo is king there. Even the dreaded contact shot, that is only valid if you can create less than zero space between you & the target mat'l & even then, maybe 50-50 chance the semi wont cycle. I have no problem shooting or carrying a revo but superior in today's world for a SD choice, nope.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Any caliber gun fired indoors is going to damage your hearing. That should really be the last thing you consider.

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NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Would you stop attacking if you got shot by one?

1) If you killed me, yes.

2) If you scared me, probably.

3) If you pissed me off, you will be in the gunfight of (and for) your life.

Add a speed strip and you’ll be fine.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

MisterX SUMS IT UP, PRETTY WELL......

AFTER RETURNING FROM VIETNAM IN 1969, I CONTINUED TO EDC A FULL SIZE 1911, WITH 2 SPARE 10 ROUND MAGS, FOR 30 YEARS, IN CIVILIAN LIFE. 31 ROUNDS OF JHP IN .45 ACP, SHOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH, FOR ANY SERIOUS SHTF SITUATION.......

NOW RETIRED, AND NO LONGER LIVING IN THE INNER CITY, I CARRY A M686+, IN A CROSSDRAW BELT HOLSTER, BACKED UP WITH A M642, IN A MIKA POCKET HOLSTER, DURING COLD WEATHER......

BOTH ARE STUFFED WITH SPEER GOLD DOT, .38 SPL+P, FOR SHORT BARRELS. I ALSO CARRY 12 EXTRA ROUNDS IN 2 BIANCHI SPEED STRIPS. THAT'S A FULL RELOAD FOR BOTH GUNS.....

IMHO, DURING THE HOT WEATHER, THE M642 IS ADEQUATE, WITH THE 2 SPEED STRIPS OF EXTRA AMMO......

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

I agree with what is written above, just wanted too add a couple thoughts.

One thing we were taught as Police Officers was to have a partner/backup If a situation developed. As we get older, and are seen by predators to be more vulnerable, not being alone in a situation is important. Even two "Old Coots" are a less predictable target than one.

While as a LEO I was sent in search of trouble I can easily avoid as a civilian, the most rounds I ever fired as an Officer (out of a 5 shot revolver) was 12. As a civilian I have never drawn my EDC.

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Certified Curmudgeon

Usually carry a 44 special but would not feel a 38 special not up to
a self defense shooting 99.9% of the time.

Nah, I'm just happy to see ya....

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Keep on Chooglin'

Wow, that's a really nice mahogany holster......

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Keep on Chooglin'

I feel if I can't get it done with my 638 I'm in BIG trouble

Well I might be in "big trouble" because I had to send my 642 back to S&W.

I have carried a J Frame for several years now and feel confident with it. It wears a laser grip and if I feel like it/want, I carry a second J Frame as backup.

However, I'd rather carry my Kahr P45 in a thumb break and as soon as my custom holster order gets in, I hope to. *I am also carrying my 1911 Commander PC more since I have the Safariland ALS for it as well.

It all comes down to what you can carry and shoot well. For myself, I no longer carry a NAA mini revolver and I think .38 and 9mm NATO are "basement."

This subject's a well worn path. More capacity's only an advantage if you hit your target. The Kehoe Brothers-Ohio State Patrol shootout for example, (it's on You Tube). The patrolman emptied his hi-cap pistol at close range, zero hits. If a 642's what you've got, practice, get good with it. Not just shooting, practice efficient reloading. Your 642's +P rated. There are several brands of self-defense ammo available that will do the job,,,, if you do your part. Oldest rule of shooting, the gun's only as good as the guy, (or girl), behind it.

I voted yes, but I carried two today, in addition to a K frame.

For 30 years I carried a full size pistol or revolver daily and a steel J-frame off duty. When I retired 12 years ago a started carrying a 642 daily. My needs are to protect me and mine. I don't get involved in other people arguments, not my problem.
In addition, I am just no longer willing to try an lug around my Glock 19 or 26 anymore. I do train at least monthly with my 642 in addition to my 26 and a M64 snubby.

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Support your Police, & NRA

For the past 27 years, carried a Sig-P220 and a S&W 442 backup on duty. Off duty either the Sig or a G19 and the J except for the 4 months out of the year where the weather is extreme and then J became primary for off duty. One month prior I would tune up with the J. Now retired I still follow the same routine, done several classes with the J and while its not a full size 1911 it's a tool and will work if I do MY PART! Recently my 442 suffered a cracked frame from 27 years of hard use, May, summer starting and I seriously missed the J. Had to put a lot more thought into clothing and printing then I wanted to in these summer months. Missed it so badly that I bought a S&W 940 while waiting for Smith to replace the 442 (which they did but not quickly). Never appreciated the J till I had to do without, told myself I would never be without one again. Modification in daily routine, training and mindset and the J fit the bill, retired, not responsible for family members. Love it! Train, train, and train some more, decent ammo, step up your situational awareness. Oh, and I voted yes!

That's a bummer My 638 was a *** when it was new until I took her down and cleaned all the aluminium shaving out of it and added a small amount of lube. Work flawless now

Been shooting the S&W 940 this weekend, 200rds, loving it, can't believe they discontinued it. "Do your part!"

I've got some Colt and S&W .38 snubs but I'd rather carry this if I'm doing the small revolver thing.

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C & L

Same here - so far no problem. Who knows about tomorrow!

There is simply more skills to learn and practice with a semi-auto compared with a revolver and it is beneficial for instructors to convince you that you need to get a high capacity autoloader and then take their classes to learn the "necessary" skills.

I would not be at all surprised to learn a great number of the same instructors who promote the advantages of semi-autos actually carry a light-weight snub most of the time.

Stephen Camp made a lot of good sense about the subject:

Making the J

At times this is in my pocket but then I feel like I could do better...perhaps.

Or I could do worse for sure.

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C & L

This is great. I took a defensive pistol course here. Both instructors were wearing Glocks. I asked what they carried on the street. One carried a Ruger SP101 and the other a 642. One wonders.

This is the best thing I’ve read all year, and your post and Mister X’s post ought to be the mic drop at the end of every “pistol or revolver/is five enough” thread.

This is a bit bigger, close to K frame size, but 5 rounds of 45 Colt in a full titanium build and is not any heavier than my model 60.

Personally, I'd go with this: PERFORMANCE CENTER(R) SW1911 PRO SERIES(R) 9mm | Smith & Wesson

I am all in favor of pistol practice. Go to any indoor range and take a look. People need to practice. But do you ever wonder how much of this "defensive training" is simply churn? "Oh no, your five shot J Frame is totally worthless. You are endangering your family....blah blah". Or my favorite: "The 12 gauge shotgun is a ****** home defense gun". Really? I have hunted with a 12 gauge most of my life. I have a grasp of what a load of 00 will do at 5 yards. I wonder if some of these people have even fired a 12 gauge. Rant over. My apologies in advance.

In looking at the posts by oink and X something occurred to me...defensive vs. offensive use of the self-defense handgun...

In the Hendrix case I cited above, a civilian armed with a snubby just to protect himself would have been well armed...he was at the back to the store when the hostiles broke out and as eb07 said...just run out the back door. When Hendrix decided he had to intervene he went from the defensive use of the handgun to the offensive...and that is where he ended up not having enough gun.

So maybe it is just going to depend on ones mindset... If you plan on only using the gun as a last ditch defensive weapon the snubby is probably enough. If on the other hand you think like oink and can't walk away if someone else is in trouble, probably better to bring a little more to the fight....

Bob

^^^ really well said, and a point not often brought into this type of conversation. It’s something I personally need to think about more carefully from time to time: “what am I willing to use this tool for, and is it enough tool for that purpose.” Much more individualized than “how many bullets is enough?”

Its not the gun or the caliber its "How well you can sgoot it".

oops "How well you can Shoot it"

You would be.

Make no mistake, I love J-Frames; especially the Model 36 & Model 60. But they are poor choices for saving my life. I'm much rather have a Performance center 1911 9MM 3".

I disagree. Caliber and gun can define going home to your family or a coroner's officer for postmortem examination.

Now you're talkin'.

But I rather have this:



Springfield Armory Professional Model 1911 .45 Auto

S&W 442 AIWB (well, where my appendix would be if it were left handed)

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

It is better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. They same can be said of ammo. There are plenty of compact 9mm autos out there that will give you increased ammo capacity and that can be carried comfortably with a spare magazine. I used to be all about revolvers. Still love them and have a couple. But I have gone from absolutely hating polymer pistols to loving my 9MM Shield. In my area, a new Shield can be had for $350 plus tax. But, alas, much depends on your situation (where you live, work, travel), the probability of being involved in an encounter, and how likely you are to be involved in an encounter with multiple assailants. If you feel that you are at low risk, carry a J frame. If you feel that you are at increased risk, go with a compact auto 9mm.

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otis

Excellent post.

I've yet to read a negative word about Shield.

I love revolvers, but they're poor performers for life saving.

If CA would allow, I'd buy a Performance Center 1911 9MM 3" in a New York second.

EMP3-- Not if you can't shoot it!!!!!!!!!!!

Poll result speaks for itself.

I don't know, given how things work nowadays we might need to collect a panel of "ex-sperts" to make sure we draw the correct conclusion.