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Old 09-12-2018, 04:03 PM
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What is your opinion on the 9mm revolvers I’m seeing vs 38 +P for self defense?

Also, are S&W revolver triggers that much better than others? How?

Last edited by SATX; 09-12-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:12 PM
washerman washerman is online now
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Charter Arms makes a nice 9MM revolver that doesn't require moon clips. I think a 9mm revolver has a couple of advantages over 38 special . one advantage is ammo cost. 9mm is substantially less expensive. The second is a 9mm bullet has much more power than a 38 special +P. 357 Mag is more expensive yet than the 38 special. Don't think i'd want to shoot 9mm out of a 12 ounce revolver but 20 ounce gun be ok
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:15 PM
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I like them. I am carrying a Smith and Wesson PC 940 Special today

However, I now carry my 940 loaded with 38 SUPER ammunition and I carry my PC 940 Special loaded with 356TSW ammunition




Both of these cartridges exceed 38 Special balistics

The rest of the time I carry a 357 Magnum J-frame

This is me, I realize that MORE POWER is not for everybody.

There are folks that either are quite pleased with a 38 Special or not tolerant of the recoil that the More Powerful cartridges generate

You are the only person that can make this decision for you

You might want to find a local range, or a buddy, where you can try out different firearms before buying them,
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:53 PM
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I see on internet forums (it has to be true, right) that there is an issue with revolvers shooting semi-auto cartridges. Supposedly recoil can cause the bullet to be pulled from the case and jam the cylinder. Has to do with the lighter crimp on the semi-auto ammo.

I've been thinking about a 9mm LCR and am wondering if this is really a significant issue or just internet fodder that's more a "possibility" than a real problem.
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I see on internet forums (it has to be true, right) that there is an issue with revolvers shooting semi-auto cartridges. Supposedly recoil can cause the bullet to be pulled from the case and jam the cylinder. Has to do with the lighter crimp on the semi-auto ammo.

I've been thinking about a 9mm LCR and am wondering if this is really a significant issue or just internet fodder that's more a "possibility" than a real problem.
Bullet pull is a fact of life.

The higher power the cartridge is
or
The lighter weight the revolver is

The more inertia there is to pull the bullet forward

It does not matter what the caliber is or who makes the revolver.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:02 PM
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I had a no-dash 940 for a few years, and shooting a couple thousand of that round from a J-frame gives a fellow a healthy respect for it. It's more than a .38+P in recoil snap, if no .357. Anyhow, I liked the gun a lot and got to where I could practically throw the moon clips into the cylinder for faster reloads than with a semiauto. Neat gun.



Me being a fool, I eventually traded it away on something I had to have (after I'd bead-blasted it and modified the stocks to fit my hand delightfully). It's one of the few I regret having traded.



My no-dash gun did have extraction problems with certain rounds - the 2k of Blazer aluminum cased stuff that I got for $4.88/box from Natchez pretty much had to be hammered out (man, did the heel of my palm get tough from whacking that ejector rod, but not before it got a little divot carved out of the center of it). I understand this was improved on the 940-1.



Never ever had a round pull. I shot everything from that gun, too, but not a whole lot of +P+.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:15 PM
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I have a 2-3/4" Ruger Speed Six in 9mm. It has never had a problem with bullet pull, perhaps because it is heavier than a J frame?
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:48 PM
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I used to have a Ruger Sp101 in 9mm . It was "OK" but I didn't care for reloads bouncing around in my pocket in the moon clip. They got bent easily and fouled on lint, etc as compared to a speed strip or (certain brands of) speed loaders. Putting the loaded moon clips in a pill bottle (as some suggest) just made them bulkier and harder to get too. In the end ( once the novelty wore off) I just didn't see where the 9mm snubbie had anything significant over the cheaper and easier to find +P rated 38 flavor. I have no desire for another but I do believe S&W is missing the boat by not offering one to those who do.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
I used to have a Ruger Sp101 in 9mm . It was "OK" but I didn't care for reloads bouncing around in my pocket in the moon clip. They got bent easily and fouled on lint, etc as compared to a speed strip or (certain brands of) speed loaders. Putting the loaded moon clips in a pill bottle (as some suggest) just made them bulkier and harder to get too. In the end ( once the novelty wore off) I just didn't see where the 9mm snubbie had anything significant over the cheaper and easier to find +P rated 38 flavor. I have no desire for another but I do believe S&W is missing the boat by not offering one to those who do.

I solved the moon clip issue by putting two clips in a .38 speed loader pouch.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:27 PM
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I carry a Ruger LCR in 9mm quite frequently.
I have experienced no bullet jump with 115 thru 147gr factory ammo.
It has a better trigger than the 640 PRO I owned for awhile. But the Ruger was more expensive.
I find it easier to line up the shorter 9mm rnds. when reloading w/ moonclips than the longer .38 Spec. rnds.
I have had no problem with the stock moonclips beconing bent in my pocket. Yet.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:12 AM
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Unless you’re trying to consolidate your ammo I can see no real advantage over the thirty-eight revolver, but I may not be as objective as others. My issued .38 saved me three times during my 30 year LEO career so IF you carry a revolver the old police gun has street creds.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:58 AM
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I am considering one for CCW carry myself
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by washerman View Post
a 9mm bullet has much more power than a 38 special +P.


Please, don't even go there... I'm begging you.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:48 AM
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I've owned a 940 and found it to be a great little revolver. It did occasionally have the sticky cylinder problem described above, but it shot great otherwise. From the recoil, I could tell that the 9mm was a bit more stout than most .38 loads. I wish I'd kept that little gun, but I have one stainless k-frame cylinder and one j-frame cylinder I'm considering sending to TK Customs or Pinnacle to be cut for 9mm/.38 Super/9x21 for the versatility.

Being an old, retired cop who started with a revolver and still carry one often today, I haven't lost my appreciation for the .38 Special, especially in the +p loads. I tend to carry my 340 M&P with Buffalo Bore 158 gr.+p FBI LHPSWC/GC at 1020 fps out of a 2" barrel most of the time. I recently was able to develop a hand load that comes pretty close to it using a similar lead cast HP bullet and Blue Dot powder. It makes for a heavier bullet traveling damn near as fast as the 9mm. In my mind, that gives the .38 better than equal footing with the 9mm loads.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:14 PM
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My first revolver was/is a 9mm SP101. I have never had crimp jump issues with it because it is a heavier gun. Some loads do have issues with crimp jump in lighter revolvers like the LCR 9mm.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:27 PM
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.38 Special is really rimmed 9 Parabellum, 9 Parabellum is really .38 Special without a rim. Balistically 9 has 2x standard pressure in 0.5x useful case volume of .38 when loading the SAME bullet (as I do with Badman 125 grain LRNFPs, I use the same charge as well).

The difference is platform and history. The typical .38 Special commercial loading is a heavier round 158 grains or so, at a lower velocity. The typical 9 load is 115 grains or so faster. You can load (or sometimes find commercial) heavier slower 9 or faster lighter. 38.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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If you're going to go snubby, then you might as well go with a .357 Magnum. Even if all you plan to shoot out of it is .38 Special +P, it just makes more sense to choose the one that gives you an option for more powerful cartridges.

Personally, I don't care for pistol cartridge revolvers since they require the use of moon clips and are generally weaker than revolver cartridges, nor am I fan of the 9mm Luger cartridge which is offers more hype/rhetoric than it does actual performance.

If you want to carry a snub-nose revolver, then get one chambered in a proper rimmed cartridge which was designed for a revolver. If you want to carry a 9mm Luger, then get a semiautomatic pistol, because just about the only legitimate advantage to carrying 9mm Luger over anything else is ammo capacity, which obviously isn't a factor in a revolver.

.38 Special +P is more than adequate for self-defense seeing as even a standard pressure .38 will get the job done, and if you desire more power than obviously a proper .357 Magnum load (optimized for short-barrels) will run laps around the 9mm Luger.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:07 PM
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I own a new Charter Bulldog in 9mm.

I'm not sure I'd trust my life with it just yet, but once I initially broke it in, it has yet to fail me.

The gun is easy to shoot and because it weighs in at 21oz, is very mild in the recoil dept.

So far, it seems to shoot more accurately with 124 gr std pressure rounds (NOT 9mm NATO) over 115gr bulk box. I really want to try the guy out with 147gr std pressure rounds like the Federal HST, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, and Win Ranger bonded, etc. ( According to Charter, +P rounds don't get you anything over std offerings)

I need to buy a stinking chronograph already so I can really figure out how these rounds are spitting out.

Anyway...I bought this for cheap(er) range revolver plinking and it's been just that. With factory ammo 50% less than that of .38 scpl, I cannot complain.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:30 PM
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SATX, I have little doubt that the vast majority of people interested in a small revolver for SD would be more comfortable with one chambered in .38 Spcl. or .357. They are traditional, they are simple, there are no complications with moon clips, possible bullet pull issues, etc.

That being said, I do like the 9MM revolvers, and have a S&W 940 and Ruger SP-101 chambered in 9mm. The moon clips required are not an issue for me. Ballistics of the 9MM cartridge in these little 2" and 3" revolvers fall between 38 Spcl. +P and .357 Magnum. Over all good, bad? Each will decide, but most will choose a traditional revolver cartridge....

BTW, trigger pull with any manufacturer's production guns will vary. I have more than one S&W. No two with same trigger pull. My Ruger trigger is heavier, but just as smooth as the S&Ws. But someone else might have the exact same models, with better or worse triggers.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock185 View Post
SATX, I have little doubt that the vast majority of people interested in a small revolver for SD would be more comfortable with one chambered in .38 Spcl. or .357. They are traditional, they are simple, there are no complications with moon clips, possible bullet pull issues, etc.

That being said, I do like the 9MM revolvers, and have a S&W 940 and Ruger SP-101 chambered in 9mm. The moon clips required are not an issue for me. Ballistics of the 9MM cartridge in these little 2" and 3" revolvers fall between 38 Spcl. +P and .357 Magnum. Over all good, bad? Each will decide, but most will choose a traditional revolver cartridge....

BTW, trigger pull with any manufacturer's production guns will vary. I have more than one S&W. No two with same trigger pull. My Ruger trigger is heavier, but just as smooth as the S&Ws. But someone else might have the exact same models, with better or worse triggers.
People make too big of a deal out of moon clips (EDIT: "big deal" as in making them out to be a negative thing). My 627 uses them and I simply load them up before I go to the range, no big deal. I bought a nice loader/unloading tool and it's easy as pie.

The Pitbull has a nifty little detent that holds the casing in place until you eject it, loading initially takes a few times before you get the knack of it, but it's not problematic. My only complaint about Charter's system (and it's a minor one) is how the brass falls when you eject it. You have to turn the firearm upright and give a good amount of pressure to eject the brass, the detents seem to work like some sort of ejector so instead of the brass falling straight down like other revolvers, it all shoots out in 5 different directions. Because of this I'll eject into a small cardboard box vs my brass bag like I do with my other revolvers.

Small thing, really, but worth noting.

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Old 09-13-2018, 08:41 PM
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Yankee Marshal did a YouTube video testing different self defense ammo for crimp jump in a LCR 9mm. Some was ok others were not.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:12 PM
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Yankee Marshal did a YouTube video testing different self defense ammo for crimp jump in a LCR 9mm. Some was ok others were not.
I am honestly saying this, I rarely critique videos of that nature, and I dont dislike the YM, but that video of his was silly.

First off, cycling the same round through a cylinder over and over again is abviously going to crimp jump many different rounds...who actually does that in real life? Few will run 4 rounds through a SD pistol, re-running the 5th over and over again.

He needed to do a single cylinder set test, with accuracy and chronograph info to faithfully see what a certain round will do in each cylinder set.

...and I need to do some homework, but I still think running +P 9mm in such a short barrel is silly...but I may be mistaken.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
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...and I need to do some homework, but I still think running +P 9mm in such a short barrel is silly...but I may be mistaken.
If the criminal perpetrators is close, you might set his clothing on fire...
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:13 AM
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Typetwelve, I agree about the moon clips, but most shooters do not seem to share our opinion. FWIW, 9MM +P, or even +P+, chronographed in these short 2"-3" barreled revolvers approximates velocities in 4"-5" semi-autos. So, for better or worse, I would expect effectiveness to be the same. Someone will probably be along soon to school me for about the 343rd. time that cylinder length should be included when comparing revolver vs. semi-auto velocities. I'm aware, and don't care, since I'm only reporting results, not trying to convince anybody of anything

For instance, the Federal 9MM 124 HST +P averages 1195 FPS in my 2" revolver, and 1291 FPS in a 3" revolver. The Federal "9BPLE" 115 grain +P+ averaged 1213 FPS in the same 2" revolver, 1313 FPS in the 3". So, counter intuitive as it might seem, the 9MM revolvers don't lose much ballistically as compared to semi-autos of similar, or even longer barrel length. I realize other's results might vary, since no two manufactured items, like guns, are exactly the same.....
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:03 AM
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"I personally prefer a S&W Magnum."
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But my S&W M 640 fits the bill...
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:49 AM
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I think it just adds one more thing to go wrong. But understand I reload, so I don't particular care about the price difference between 9mm and .38 Spl. For me, the two cost the same.

If you're going to do it, subject one of your SD cartridges to three cylinders' worth of firing. If it doesn't pull enough to lock up the revolver, I'd say you're good to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by washerman
57 Mag is more expensive yet than the 38 special.
Most places I look, bulk .357 (500-1000 rounds) is about the same or slightly cheaper than .38 Spl. There's not a lot of extra brass or powder required for a .357, and there are a lot more people buying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy2525
I see on internet forums (it has to be true, right) that there is an issue with revolvers shooting semi-auto cartridges. Supposedly recoil can cause the bullet to be pulled from the case and jam the cylinder. Has to do with the lighter crimp on the semi-auto ammo.

I've been thinking about a 9mm LCR and am wondering if this is really a significant issue or just internet fodder that's more a "possibility" than a real problem.
Real thing, but internet is slightly wrong.

Roll crimping--where the case mouth pinches into either a cannelure or groove on the bullet, or the bullet itself--which is what's normally done on revolvers, provides a lot of resistance to pull...if you do it right. If your overall length is wrong, and the case mouth winds up all the way at the top of the crimp groove, the bullet can pull quite a bit.

Taper crimping--case mouth stays parallel to the bullet's sides--doesn't actually provide most of the neck tension. Or rather, you can crimp the hell out of it and still not get good neck tension (the two statements aren't the same). If you over-expand the case mouth prior to seating the bullet, the case will be expanded well below the mouth, and crimping the mouth more won't fix that. Ditto for sizing the brass.

You can also over-crimp, and slightly size the bullet down. Later, the elastic brass tries to "spring back" to its original size (very slightly, we're talking very small amounts of movement here), but the lead or lead-cored bullet stays the same size you over-crimp'd it to. Voila, no neck tension.

So you can properly make a 9mm that has great neck tension that resists both pulling and compression. And you can make miserable 9mm that doesn't.

It'd be hard to make a .38 Spl that didn't do that, but .38 Spl is a real peach to reload. You have to really try to make bad ammo.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomkinsSP View Post
If the criminal perpetrators is close, you might set his clothing on fire...
There's an advantage of the 9mm over a 357 in a really short barrel: WAY less muzzle flash. I've found that 9mm +P+ ammo is basically equivalent to .357 in these roughly 2" barreled revolvers. (Have not tried the comparison with the 3" barreled versions.)

FWIW, I've carried a 940 for about 20 years now, except when the 340 M&P takes up the slack, mostly because of the tritium front sight that came with the .357 revolver (which usually has .38 +Ps loaded).

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Old 09-14-2018, 07:28 AM
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I love the 9MM round. They have made huge strides in that round over the past few years and it's still cheaper than anything else. 9mm+p+ ballistics are very near 357 mag and 40 cal (two rounds that are widely considered to be in the top 5 best all around defensive rounds).
All of that said, for myself, I would never consider any of the present 9mm revolver offerings. I don't like moon clips and Charter Arms' system, while it's intriguing, seems like added difficulty and not 100% easy (like a revolver should be) and you can't use speed strips or speed loaders with 9mm revolvers.
I'll continue paying $.04+- more per round and a slight lose in ballistics for the ease of loading/unloading, and carrying 38.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Rock185 View Post
Typetwelve, I agree about the moon clips, but most shooters do not seem to share our opinion. FWIW, 9MM +P, or even +P+, chronographed in these short 2"-3" barreled revolvers approximates velocities in 4"-5" semi-autos. So, for better or worse, I would expect effectiveness to be the same. Someone will probably be along soon to school me for about the 343rd. time that cylinder length should be included when comparing revolver vs. semi-auto velocities. I'm aware, and don't care, since I'm only reporting results, not trying to convince anybody of anything

For instance, the Federal 9MM 124 HST +P averages 1195 FPS in my 2" revolver, and 1291 FPS in a 3" revolver. The Federal "9BPLE" 115 grain +P+ averaged 1213 FPS in the same 2" revolver, 1313 FPS in the 3". So, counter intuitive as it might seem, the 9MM revolvers don't lose much ballistically as compared to semi-autos of similar, or even longer barrel length. I realize other's results might vary, since no two manufactured items, like guns, are exactly the same.....
Here's a video that I didn't expect to see, neither did the maker:


(Cliff notes, MAC did some side by side testing of 9mm +P, .38 +P and .357 in short barrel revolvers. 9mm +P performed the best in terms of velocity.)

You know...not to derail this, but the moon clip thing still gets me. When I bought my 627 Pro, I had many people tell me "Aw man...moon clips? You'll regret getting that...", including my father.

I landed up with this tool here:

https://www.mooncliptool.com/

It really works well. My only real regret is not getting this one instead:

http://www.bmtequipped.com/purchase.php

This one seems to work much better than the one I have.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:41 AM
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Here's a video that I didn't expect to see, neither did the maker:

YouTube

(Cliff notes, MAC did some side by side testing of 9mm +P, .38 +P and .357 in short barrel revolvers. 9mm +P performed the best in terms of velocity.)


I stopped watching MAC videos after this....Although visually entertaining I highly suspect some of his videos are "edited" especially some of the gauntlet ones. that and he goes out of his way to explain what knife he uses to cut open the gel. I mean, in explicit detail down to the name, model, name of manufacturer. He's promoting it... and when someone goes out of their way to promote products then I find the integrity of the results in the videos questionable...

Besides, velocity is fine but how does that translate into effectiveness of the round in it's intended target? 9mm in a revolver? A short, snub nose revolver? I think it's been proven time & time again that a 9mm performs best in a barrel at least 3.5" of length. A snub nose 9mm revolver? Might as well get a 380...

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Old 09-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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I stopped watching MAC videos after this....Although visually entertaining I highly suspect some of his videos are "edited" especially some of the gauntlet ones. that and he goes out of his way to explain what knife he uses to cut open the gel. I mean, in explicit detail down to the name, model, name of manufacturer. He's promoting it... and when someone goes out of their way to promote products then I find the integrity of the results in the videos questionable...

Besides, velocity is fine but how does that translate into effectiveness of the round in it's intended target? 9mm in a revolver? A short, snub nose revolver? I think it's been proven time & time again that a 9mm performs best in a barrel at least 3.5" of length. A snub nose 9mm revolver? Might as well get a 380...
Let me ask this...all things being equal, isn't velocity darn near the only thing you can hang your hat on?

A 124/125 grain projectile offering from the same brand should perform a certain way no matter what barrel it is fired from, given that the velocity is the same.

MAC was getting X velocity from a 124 grain 9mm projectile, and Y velocity from a 125 grain .357 projectile. If the bullets are the same, and X is more than Y...It shouldn't matter what is being fired from.

I'll put it this way, when the whole ".357 vs 9mm" debate comes up, its not barrel length, projectile weight or projectile type that comes up, it is how much more velocity .357 has over 9mm. The physical attributes of the firearms used do matter...but they're simply a list of tools used to attain a listed projectile speed.

In the case of his review, which was short barrel revolvers, he found that a +P 9mm was spitting out at higher speed than a .357 was. It doesn't mean this "test" was absolute and all-encompassing, it simply meant that with those firearms and that ammo, that's what he found.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:04 PM
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RGV, FWIW, reference it being proven time and time again that 9mm performs best in a barrel at least 3.5" in length, and in a snub nose 9mm, might as well get a .380. In actuality, 9mm in a snub nosed revolver performs a bit better than any .380 I'm aware of. The 9mm 124 grain HST +P, that reportedly does very well in gel tests, averages 1166 FPS in my 3.5" S&W semi-auto, 1195 FPS in my 2" S&W revolver. I have a semi-auto with 4.7" barrel that produces 1294 FPS with the same 124 HST. My 3" revolver produces 1291 FPS. I don't think the projectile cares what barrel length it is launched from, as long as velocities are similar. Perhaps there are factory .380 loads that produce nearly 1200FPS with a 124 grain bullet, but I confess I'm unaware of those.

As I mentioned earlier, not trying to convince anybody of anything, just enjoying the discussion, and reporting actual results with 9mm in these little revolvers.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by typetwelve View Post
I am honestly saying this, I rarely critique videos of that nature, and I dont dislike the YM, but that video of his was silly.



First off, cycling the same round through a cylinder over and over again is abviously going to crimp jump many different rounds...who actually does that in real life? Few will run 4 rounds through a SD pistol, re-running the 5th over and over again.



He needed to do a single cylinder set test, with accuracy and chronograph info to faithfully see what a certain round will do in each cylinder set.



...and I need to do some homework, but I still think running +P 9mm in such a short barrel is silly...but I may be mistaken.


I agree that the multiple cycling was more of a torture test than what should happen in the real world.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:55 PM
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With some hollow points, tests indicate an inverse relationship between penetration and velocity (bullet expands too early). The water gets pretty muddy with alot of this.
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Old 09-15-2018, 11:38 AM
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5 iron, yes that could happen, and the waters certainly can get muddy. The two loads I reported on are factory, and of course factory ammunition loaded to lower velocities is available. Purchasers have to depend on the manufacturer of the ammunition having done their homework in determining at what velocities their bullets perform best. The two I mentioned were just used as an illustration of actual chronographed velocities in short barreled revolvers vs. semi-autos, not bullet performance.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:18 PM
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I've considered a 9mm revolver from time to time, but for self defense purposes if you want a revolver and are not comfortable with .38 +P snub nose performance, you might as well go with a .357 Magnum.

The primary advantage of 9mm Luger in a revolver is the speed in reloading offered by:

1) the short, easy to eject length of the 9mm Luger case; and 2) the ability to use moon clips.

However, while with a lot of practice, moon clips can almost be thrown into the cylinder, it works a lot better with round nose FMJ bullets, and is less than optimum with hollow points. In addition, it's a lot easier to carry a speed loader in an OWB carrier than it is in a pocket. Those two things make a 9mm revolver nearly ideal for practical pistol competition, but leave it coming up short for concealed carry purposes.

So...just go with a good short barrel .38 +P load or better yet a good short barrel .357 magnum load.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:00 PM
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Get the S&W 5-shot, no hammer .38 special. You can shoot it right through your coat pocket/purse up close & they won't even know what hit 'em. Very light. You only need one shot.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:30 PM
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Let me ask this...all things being equal, isn't velocity darn near the only thing you can hang your hat on?

A 124/125 grain projectile offering from the same brand should perform a certain way no matter what barrel it is fired from, given that the velocity is the same.
Here's the problems.

(1) You simply cannot compare velocities from two different barrels, much less two different guns. Doesn't work. You can have a 2" barrel that generates more velocity than a 4" barrel, and a 4" barrel that generates more velocity than a 6" barrel. Happens all the time. Generally-speaking, rigorous barrel length vs velocity tests use the same barrel, and cut it down to measure velocity at different lengths.

(2) You can't compare velocities from three different brands of ammo.

(3) You can't arbitrarily select a bullet weight common between two different cartridges and use it as a foundation for comparison. Different cartridges function better with different bullet weights.

(4) You can't arbitrarily select a mathematical formula to compare effectiveness. Doesn't work, despite people developing different yardsticks for generations. M*V by itself is absurdly simplistic, since it fails to take into account bullet diameter or expansion potential. Yes, I know this guy dressed it up as "muzzle energy", but protip, if the only two variables are velocity and mass, all you've got is M*V. It also presumes a perfectly linear relationship between projectile mass and velocity, which is completely foolish. A 5-oz baseball thrown at 50mph has a PF (M*V) of 160k. A Black Hills 115-gr 9mm+P has a PF of only 135k. Which one has a better chance of stopping an attacker in one shot?

The MAC test reeks of gaming. It's the sort of thing one comes up with to confirm a choice already made, or sell a particular approach. Even presuming 9mm generates more velocity at a given weight than .357--it's pointless information.

It's understandable--people want to think they've selected "the best", because if you have "the best" of everything, they think it means they're somehow safer. Ultimately, however...*shrugs*. Stuff happens.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:03 AM
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I am considering one for CCW carry myself
If youíre considering a J frame (e.g., 5 shot .38) there is lots to recommend this platform but one thing Iíd suggest is regular range time (perishable skill). These little guns are snappy and somewhat difficult to shoot, but once mastered have no equal for EDC.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:40 AM
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As I posted about this in another sub forum, my present EDC is an S & W model 940-1. It is carried in a Bianchi 9R upside down shoulder holster. I like the extra weight for taming the Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain flex lock load. The 940 is the smoothest Jframe I have. Although I wouldn't mind owning Ruger LCR in 9mm I think is would be a little light with those loads. Follow up shots are a little easier because of the weight. The weight is managed by the holster. Presentation is not as fast as other methods, but if I am situationally that unaware, I'm losing anyway. Planning on shooting and retreating for cover ASAP. I guess I'll lose to multiple assailants so weapon choice load carry method won't matter much. I carry a couple of moonclips, but basically I'm 5 and done
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Old 10-04-2018, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SATX View Post
What is your opinion on the 9mm revolvers I’m seeing vs 38 +P for self defense?

Also, are S&W revolver triggers that much better than others? How?
IMHO, YOUR QUESTION IS CONFUSING. ARE YOU ASKING FOR A COMPARISON OF THE BALLISTICS AND/OR THE "STOPPING POWER" OF THE 9MM VS THE .38SPL+P CARTRIDGE ? ? ? IF SO, I WOULD URGE YOU TO DO YOUR OWN SEARCH OF THE AVAILABLE DATA, AND DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.....

IF YOU ARE ASKING FOR AN OPINION ON A 9MM REVOLVER FOR EDC, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT IS THE WORST POSSIBLE CHOICE YOU COULD MAKE ! ! !

IF YOU DECIDE TO CARRY A 9MM WEAPON FOR SD, YOU WOULD BE BEST SERVED BY A THIN, FLAT SIDED, MUCH EASIER TO CONCEAL, HIGHER CAPACITY, SEMI-AUTO PISTOL.......

AS FOR YOUR LAST QUESTION---YES, IMHO S&W, DA REVOLVERS HAVE THE BEST TRIGGERS OF ANY BRAND IN CURRENT PRODUCTION......
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:37 PM
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I think you get a little more oomph with 9mm+p over 38sp but probably not enough to justify swapping out a perfectly good 38sp snub for a 9mm.
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Old cop View Post
If youíre considering a J frame (e.g., 5 shot .38) there is lots to recommend this platform but one thing Iíd suggest is regular range time (perishable skill). These little guns are snappy and somewhat difficult to shoot, but once mastered have no equal for EDC.
Agree, practice is req'd for any self defense pistol choice but the da snubby probably more so. I disagree on no equal??? Any sub compact 9mm is the equal & arguably better choice if nothing else than better triggers & more ammo. Of course that is jmo.
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Old 10-04-2018, 01:25 PM
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Just go with a 44 special and forget about the others. I haven't felt I did wrong with carrying the 44 spl over the LCR 357/38 spl +P. 9 MM I am not interested in for a revolver. If you want the additional 9mm power then you might as well just go with the 357. I don't want the deafening sound of the 9 or 357. Screw that karaaaack in my ears.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:35 PM
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Default Carrying Moonclips?👎🏻Am I the only guy?

Iíd love a 940 just to match ammo with my LC9s and increased ballistics over 38+p but I really like my lightweight 442 and 360j. These 2 both cost me way under $400. And weight 15oz.
The thing about 9mm revolvers is if you feel the need to carry extra ammo in those round and delicate moon clips, arenít you just better off with a 7-10 round compact 9mm? Am I the only guy with this thinking?
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:48 PM
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Yeah, i carry a Shield and am happy with it. I just saw some 9mm revolvers and was intrigued. Honestly, I must not be paying attention because I never knew they existed before I started this thread.

Thanks all for your responses.
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Old 10-04-2018, 05:30 PM
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In the past I have owned and enjoyed both a S&W 940 and a S&W 547. The 940 has been well described above, I did experience sticky cylinder, for a while a forum member was loaning out a reamer from Brownell's for those afflicted with this problem. But I am a sucker for any Centennial snubby. The 547 was a former french police model, a K frame, with a wicked ingenius extractor mechanism, but a terrible trigger. But it was practical, although I did fear having to contend with a future repair to those complicated looking extractor fingers. At one time or another I have owned just about every S&W snubby there is or was, and a great many of them had great triggers. The Colt snubs I have owned, not so much. I haven't tried any of the newer models from Ruger. If I ever get another snub, it will be another 640 in .38 special, I kick myself for letting that one go. I do not carry, but if I ever decide to, it will be a 640. A 158 gr. wadcutter should suffice for most tasks, IMHO.
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Old 10-05-2018, 11:55 AM
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Default GREAT VIDEO!

For that video is a real eye opener. I am an old dinosaur that still likes the 1911 very much. I have carried one since the19 fifties. I own a sig emperor scorpion 1911 and a para ordinance lightweight, short barreled 1911 with the light double action trigger. That is a great gun because it can safely be carried in a pocket redy to go without having to rack it and certainly without carrying cocked and locked in a pocket. With all of that being said, I still like my Smith and Wesson 340PD very much. I also have a sig P365 which is a great pocket gun. But it is a lot heavier in the pocket then the 340PD. The 340PD is the kind of gun that you will always carry it because it is so light and comfortable. And, as alluded to in the video, if you have to use the gun in the defensive situation it was made for, you will not feel the recoil nor hear the magnum report. Do I want to take it to the range and put a couple 100 rounds through it? No way. But for a defensive carry gun, I love it. Thanks for a great demonstration. I definitely feel a lot better about my 9 mm after watching that .
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:10 PM
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The 9mm in a revolver is a great idea..........

a lot more energy than a 38 special and less recoil than a .357.

You just need to know how to go about it.

Many years ago Speer came out with the number eight loading manual and on page 354
it shows a picture of a 125 grain soft point that has a large deep cannelure, that prevented bullet jump.

One just needs to load the correct bullet for the job at hand in
the weapon type used.
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:46 PM
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The 9mm in a revolver is a great idea..........

a lot more energy than a 38 special and less recoil than a .357.

You just need to know how to go about it.

Many years ago Speer came out with the number eight loading manual and on page 354
it shows a picture of a 125 grain soft point that has a large deep cannelure, that prevented bullet jump.

One just needs to load the correct bullet for the job at hand in
the weapon type used.
I made a thread on my limited findings of 9mm in a small revolver. In short, I think it really depends on the brand/make of the round. One brand jumped as much as .050" in a cylinder set, one was jumping about .010", another would jump less than .010", sometimes none at all.

Funny enough, it was Winchester 9mm NATO 124gr FMJ rounds that were almost completely staying seated.

I think some people are splitting hairs and if that's their gig, so be it. This is a vast hobby and it takes all kinds. Me? Even .050" isn't a massive deal and I'm definitely not going to get my panties in a wad over .010" of crimp jump.

All I can go with is my own personal experience with the only 9mm revolver I have, which is a new Charter Pitbull. Save running dirty, the thing has yet to fail me once. Granted, we're talking only a few months of range sessions and around 300-400 rounds. As much as I like shooting the little spud, I'll be sure to tell you all if it fails me.
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