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Old 09-21-2018, 10:12 AM
Rpg Rpg is offline
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Default Father and son kill neighbor over a mattress

An argument over trash, threats by unarmed neighbor to kill armed father and son ends badly.

Shooters charged and released on relatively low bond suggesting some culpability on decedent’s part?

Mattress shooting video: Abilene Texas men Michael and John Miller charged with murder of neighbor Aaron Howard - The Washington Post

Check the video!

From the info available I don’t see justifiable use of deadly force.

Last edited by Rpg; 09-21-2018 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:20 AM
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what trailer park did this occur in?
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:21 AM
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A good nights rest is very important...
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:28 AM
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Looks like this guy just had a hatred for his neighbor & wanted to kill em! Just bad blood between them! Truly sad, over something as little as trash, as this was way way over the top!

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Old 09-21-2018, 10:32 AM
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This was all over the 'net yesterday - the dead guy's FB page was sure interesting and would be the sort of thing that defense counsel would enjoy discussing with the prosecution:


Definite language, etc., warning:


Aaron Howard - So this afternoon Right as I wake up and... | Facebook
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:34 AM
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$25,000 bail seems outrageously low for a murder charge.

Separate off topic question for the legal minds. The article described the victim's wife as his "common law wife." With so many people living together, do common law marriages even exist as a thing any more?
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:39 AM
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Tried to read the FB post but for me it was difficult, no paragraphs! I just wish people would learn how to use simple paragraphs when writing. It can make a world of difference when attempting to read it!
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:39 AM
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If it's as hot and miserable there as it is here, I can understand hot tempers. It was probably started a long time ago, and just came to a head, in a most unfortunate manner.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:39 AM
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Rick & Bubba (syndicated talk show from Birmingham) were talking about this yesterday, and took a call from a man whose wife was familiar with the victim. Apparently the victim has an anger management problem, and was a regular disruptive visitor to the school his paramour's children attended. Also, in the video, you can see, briefly, that he is holding a baseball bat . . .
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:52 AM
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Another senseless killing over trash. Good grief. Not taking sides, I was not there, but the victim does seem to have a mental problem and a short fuse. Seems to me you can only beg someone to shoot you so many times before they conform to your wishes. Both sides in my opinion were wrong. I would not want to be on that jury and have to make that decision.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:01 AM
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Three idjits met, and the result was tragic .
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:02 AM
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Default Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is assaulted over lawn trash

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is assaulted over lawn trash pile near property line.



Quote:
U.S. Sen. Rand Paul says he hadn't spoken for years to a neighbor who alleges in court documents that he lost his temper and attacked Paul after a problem with yard debris in their Kentucky subdivision. The man who pled guilty to attack on Paul, Dr. Rene Boucher, said Paul repeatedly stacked yard debris near their property line.
Neighbor who assaulted Rand Paul blames piles of debris near yard - CBS News

The Kentucky attack happened in an expensive and exclusive neighborhood.

Bekeart
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:08 AM
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Like all these shooting going on today they are the result of lax
laws. The softer, gentler approach has not worked. This is a people problem, not a gun problem. The laws and prison system
do need changed. There has to be a point that common sense
prevails. These cases are perfect storms. Two mentally unstable
parties clash. One uses Stand your Ground as defense and right
away the law comes under attack. There needs to be more done
to identify these people and keep guns out of their hands.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:25 AM
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Darwin nailed it!
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:26 AM
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I read the FB page posting. Wow. That guy was lucky to have made it this far in life.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:31 AM
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Victimology: victims' roles in crimes.

A shooting (woman who plugged road rager in WA) that does not lead to arrest and prosecution does not mean it was a good shoot. As more info arise, arrest and prosecution could result from what some believe is a good shoot.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:51 AM
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The wise can predict where confrontations will lead. Predict likely outcomes thus avoiding use of guns. Leave before it an't an option. Killing, legal or otherwise, can't be reversed. I sure as hell wouldn't want to kill anyone over a dispute that originated over a mattress. I'd buy him two to avoid resorting to deadly force.

I'd never want killing a mentally imbalanced man to be part of my legacy. I'd rather my legacy be deescalating & resolving potentially deadly force encounters.

It's all about thinking and predicting likely outcomes.

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Old 09-21-2018, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekeart View Post
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) is assaulted over lawn trash pile near property line.

Neighbor who assaulted Rand Paul blames piles of debris near yard - CBS News

The Kentucky attack happened in an expensive and exclusive neighborhood.

Bekeart
The suspect in Senator Paul's attack was a physician, I believe. From media accounts alone (inherently unreliable), the suspect appeared to suffer mental illness.

Senator Paul suffered severe bodily injury. He'd of been justified using deadly force to protect himself. My guess is the last thing Senator Paul wanted to do was kill a mentally ill man.

I personally know of a cop who killed a mentally ill man who was forcing him into a busy street. A car can kill every bit as dead as any other mechanism of death. The deranged man was holding an weapon and threatening the cop. When the cop could retreat no more for fear of being killed by a car, he killed the suspect. Killing a mentally ill man in a perfectly legitimate shooting did bother him.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:01 PM
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From the Book Of Proverbs:

"He who spares his words has knowledge. He who is even tempered is a man of understanding".
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:45 PM
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I read the publicly available media report. My opinion is the mattress was the trigger for the incident, not the item for which the confrontation occurred. No one will turn out to be a “winner” in the end.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:29 PM
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I don't know about you folks, but I have a bunch of questions. A bunch.

First off, did the Millers own the dumpster? If so, I can see why they kept removing Howard's discarded mattress. You just don't go dumping your garbage into your neighbor's trash receptacle. It's just not good form.

If the dumpster wasn't privately owned and was something the city provided for the neighborhood, then what was the beef?

Like Erich pointed out, the dead guy's Facebook page pretty much show's that Aaron Howard was about a "half bubble off plumb." In my opinion, the gal who was his live-in "love monkey" isn't too far behind. She should've tried to calm things down and drag Howard away instead of escalating things by filming the whole mess while shouting, "You're not gonna shoot my husband!" All that did, in my opinion, is to push Miller into proving he wasn't a liar.

As Howard's Facebook page states, he was violently upset about a month earlier because a mailman happened to pass by his kids' bedroom window on his way to deliver the mail. You've gotta be kiddin' me! As the mail carrier explained, he had to go that way to deliver the mail, and if Howard was going to keep him from doing that, the carrier just wouldn't deliver the mail....which sent Howard into another tirade. Aaron Howard apparently has had previous altercations with the police.

While the video isn't real definitive, it looks like little Fatty Miller, Jr. with the shotgun, is just looking for an excuse to touch off the trigger. After the old man fires his pistol twice, it should've been enough to stop aggression. Probably was. Yet, Junior opens up a couple of times with the shotgun, peeling back the guy's scalp. Then, according to the news report, Junior placed the shotgun against the head of Howard's brother and ordered him to the ground.

Sad, sad situation all the way around, but maybe taking that guy out of the gene pool made the neighborhood a safer place in the long run. Actually, it might even be better removing the other three from the gene pool, too.

It'll be interesting to see how the facts play out. Still a lot of questions unanswered. Bottom line, though, I'm sure as heck glad that none of those bozos are my neighbors.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:57 PM
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This kind of shoot bothers me because it paints all armed citizens in a poor light.

Whether it is ultimately determined to be a legal use of deadly force or not doesn't matter as it was a needless shooting.

In this case, it's two armed idiots who decide to square off with their mentally ill neighbor and essentially provoke him until they have what they perceive to be sufficient justification to shoot him in self defense. They had a lot of other resources available to address the issue of trash in the alley and/or a difficult neighbor, and even after they started escalating this situation they could have just walked away at any time during the couple minutes leading up to the shoot.

Where do they get these idiotic ideas? It's hard to say for sure. I suspect with the low bond, the odds are high that they'll avoid a conviction. If the victim was armed with a bat and there's any evidence his was in the process of using it, they just may get away with it.

----

I'll make myself unpopular at this point and state I have similar concerns about some law enforcement officer involved shootings.

As an artifact of the war on drugs and the perception of increased threats to police officers, some departments seem to have migrated from training officers to shoot only when absolutely necessary and where the is no other option to shooting as soon a legal justification to shoot is present, in order to minimize the risk to the officer(s) to the maximum extent possible.

The problem is that having a legal justification to shoot is not necessarily the same as having to shoot, as indicated by this shooting in Dallas a few years ago.


Yes, the mentally ill individual had a screw driver, but the officers were dispatched by his mother for assistance in her son to take his meds. It was not a situation where the officers were arresting a suspect or had any particular need to control the scene of a crime.

Both officers also had ample room to retreat and use distance to both provide safety and de-escalate the situation until the mother could have gotten her son to put down the screw driver.

Instead, they started yelling "drop the weapon" to an already confused individual, and escalated this to a deadly force encounter in under 10 seconds. It's both a training issue and an attitude issue.

I'm not sure we should act all that surprised when the general public starts taking a similar approach in looking for the minimum justification for the use of deadly force before shooting.

None the less, just as abuses and perceived abuses in the use of deadly force by police officers are causing problems for police departments across the country, abuses of things like stand your ground and castle doctrine laws by armed citizens will also cause problems for armed citizens across the country, as all of us then get painted with the same tainted brush.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:02 PM
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Huh, I guess there really are people that should not be allowed to have any kind of weapon.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:34 PM
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Looks like the son had a Shockwave.

Not an image the manufacturer will be using in sales promotions I’ll bet.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:48 PM
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Yeah, but at least homeslice aimed it!
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:52 PM
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You made your bed now lie in it. I wonder who will lay in this lumpy bed?

I think if I lived next to a nut I would have to move before the nut cracked as happened in this case. Sometimes I do believe the guns are better off not leaving the house. I have read to many cases that the gun should have been left at home and called 911 for the cops to deal with it. If they shoot it is better than my doing the shooting.

If my neighbor came on my property swinging a bat I would lock my doors while calling 911. I would say I am afraid to go outside my house for fear of a man with a bat.

Watching that video all I can say is I was watching several really stupid people. From what I watched the guy shot was just running his mouth but I didn't see that he had a weapon. If he had a baseball bat I didn't see it. The guy with a shotgun I think will most likely do time and the older shooter will probably share a cell with him. The old man with the pistol was daring him to come within 3 ft. so he could shoot him. He did threaten to shoot him if he came within 3'. He was prompting to use deadly force. They both opened fire on the man and both shot more than once.

What I saw was a competition who was the bigger bad boy. I do believe the guy shot was more in fear of his life than the guys with guns. Stupid people think standing your ground is a right to shoot someone rather than back away. From reports the dumpster was in an alleyway not on either of the two men's property If the shooters had just said they were sorry for the disagreement and walked away this wouldn't have happened but oh no they had to smack talk about standing their ground and who was going to do what to the other. Once those triggers were pulled it was over for all concerned. There aren't any do overs in a gun shooting.
I would be really surprised if the shooters don't do time over this ignorance. I bet they run out of money before they win against the charge of murder.

How's that by Johnny Cash go........don't take your gun to town son. Don't take your guns to town son. They should have left their guns at home. I bet they don't have their guns now.

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Old 09-21-2018, 04:02 PM
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humans = the intelligent species.....
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
This was all over the 'net yesterday - the dead guy's FB page was sure interesting and would be the sort of thing that defense counsel would enjoy discussing with the prosecution:


Definite language, etc., warning:


Aaron Howard - So this afternoon Right as I wake up and... | Facebook
WOW, that was tough to read. Not too many of the respondents could put a whole sentence together.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:14 PM
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When you pull a gun on someone the law says you have to be in fear of serious bodily harm or death. Not just when you shoot someone - when you literally have prepared to use deadly force. In this instance these yahoos are standing around screaming at each other with guns in their hands. That's at least "brandishing" as an offense. Those guns should never have been "around" that long in a verbal confrontation situation. Even if the dead guy (I won't say "victim" because that is not clear) had a baseball bat the guns should have at least been holstered during a verbal altercation and/or the police should have been called. It is unlawful to be outside having an argument with guns ready to fire, never mind it is stupid.

If my neighbor and I were arguing and he had a gun out 911 would be called. If we both had guns out then we'd both be idiots. The jerkwad who videoed the incident should have called 911.

There is nothing positive that can come from that kind of face to face altercation.

Side note:

Quote:
Separate off topic question for the legal minds. The article described the victim's wife as his "common law wife." With so many people living together, do common law marriages even exist as a thing any more?
It depends on the state that you live in. Some states still recognize common law marriages. If a couple lives together and calls themselves boyfriend and girlfriend or even fiance' there is no marriage. if they commingle assets, money in particular, and "hold themselves out as married" but do not have the benefit of paper then some states call that a common law marriage.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule Packer View Post
Like Erich pointed out, the dead guy's Facebook page pretty much show's that Aaron Howard was about a "half bubble off plumb." In my opinion, his live-in "love monkey" isn't too far behind.
Without the "love monkey", none of this happens. Were all four of the participants idiots? YES. And now one's dead and the other three should be in jail, together in the same cell, forever.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:49 PM
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No matter how "stupid" it is it's still tragic. Life lost over trash.

Makes you wonder just how much a human life is worth to some these days.

Prayers for all affected.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:28 PM
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humans = the intelligent species.....
Humans and dogs live in the same homes. Humans take dogs outside when the dogs indicate they need to. Dogs poop, humans pick it up. To an outsider, who’s in charge?
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:59 PM
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Early in my LE career, I was in a class on forensics. A noted pathologist stated that people tend to die the same way they live. During my career, I saw that prophecy fullfilled numerous times.

Jack
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:59 PM
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No one is better at handling my problems than I am so I'll call the police to do a report. Neighbor problems I can handle.
Two things, don't escalate. Be ready to react if the other party escalates but don't you escalate.it.
Next, don't stand around talking smack, it accomplishes nothing. Either take care of business or walk away but don't just stand there running your mouth.
The couple of serious confrontations I've been in consisted of me saying maybe three words.
If the guy has a bat and is threatening me, the gun comes out but is not pointed at the ground. If the guy isn't threatening, the gun stays holstered. There's no middle ground, there's no discussion, there's just reaction.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:00 PM
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Default The distinction is...

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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
$25,000 bail seems outrageously low for a murder charge.

Separate off topic question for the legal minds. The article described the victim's wife as his "common law wife." With so many people living together, do common law marriages even exist as a thing any more?
You can live together but living together as man and wife, or representing yourself to others as living as man and wife and go through the motions for a certain period of time are legally considered married if in a state that allows it. (9 states+ D.C) Most states have abolished it. Probably for the reason you mention.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:04 PM
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In Texas, isn't "he just needed killin" a defense. If so I think this qualifies.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_Mike View Post
No matter how "stupid" it is it's still tragic. Life lost over trash.

Makes you wonder just how much a human life is worth to some these days.

Prayers for all affected.
This is where I'm at too. No winners in this scenario, not even "society" and no, he didn't "have it comin' to 'em."
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:27 PM
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Default Unbelievable.

Watched the video yesterday. What a collision of stupid, ignorant people. Mutual escalation by ALL involved.

Simply inexcusable criminal behavior by the shooters; dead guy was ‘guilty,’ too but he has an excuse...obvious mental defect(s.)

And why do morons video instead of helping de-escalate?

That said, that neighborhood will surely improve. I feel sad for the other residents who had to live near these imbeciles.

Be safe.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
$25,000 bail seems outrageously low for a murder charge.

Separate off topic question for the legal minds. The article described the victim's wife as his "common law wife." With so many people living together, do common law marriages even exist as a thing any more?
Scoff at the idea of common law marriage all you want, but when the time comes to split the sheets you may find that a divorce action is just as tiresome and expensive as if you stood before a preacher to say your "I do".

Buddy of mine went through a divorce several years ago involving a common law wife (no marriage license, no ceremony, just several years of living together and referring to each other publicly as "husband" and "wife"). He had to refinance the house to pay her half the equity, pay off her car loan and credit card bills, two years of spousal maintenance (used to be called alimony), then he found out about a couple of judgements for medical expenses which just about wiped him out.

Common law marriage is very real. Common law divorce does not exist. If you doubt it at all you may just be the one who gets truly screwed.

But I am not a lawyer, and you should not get your legal advice from internet forums. Before you invite someone to cohabitate with you it might be a good idea to consult with a real lawyer.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:02 PM
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Given today's climate with women, you're better off living by yourself!

Last edited by Dutchboy901; 09-22-2018 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:15 PM
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I asked a lawyer what is the time limit before you are considered common law married. He said their is not time placed on it. He said the shortest time on record was a man took a woman to a motel and he registered husband and wife. She sued him for divorce the next Monday.

If you two share a bank account. State you are married or she takes your last name. Have joint property. Then you are considered married. In Texas I don't think there even is common law marriage now. You fit the description of being married then you are married with or without a wedding license or certificate.

You would be amazed how many older single women coming up on being forced to retire are looking for a man with a house to get married to or live together. She can't afford the expense of an apartment on only her SS check. He croaks she possibly gets the house. I know that seems cold but it is the cold hard facts.

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Old 09-21-2018, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
This was all over the 'net yesterday - the dead guy's FB page was sure interesting and would be the sort of thing that defense counsel would enjoy discussing with the prosecution:


Definite language, etc., warning:


Aaron Howard - So this afternoon Right as I wake up and... | Facebook
I’m surprised his page is still up.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:08 PM
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Default Wow

This incident should have been avoided.
Probably more to this than we see in the video. Seems like they wanted to kill that guy.
Glad I don't live next to them folks.
Sad state of affairs.
Wonder why the video was blurred out and shrunk?
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:20 PM
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In the account of the incident I read, the two shirtless individuals had taken a mattress out of a dumpster and threw it in the mentally unstable man's backyard. You could see how that would set someone off.

There was probably a lot more that led up to this, but it sure doesn't look good for the shirtless pair, standing around with guns at the ready after committing this deliberate provocation.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
$25,000 bail seems outrageously low for a murder charge.

Separate off topic question for the legal minds. The article described the victim's wife as his "common law wife." With so many people living together, do common law marriages even exist as a thing any more?
They do here in Texas.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:45 PM
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Seems the mattress had more sense than the other four put together!
A similar event happened a couple of miles down the road last year neighbors with an ongoing dispute over the property line between their house lots. One morning it came to a head, both got armed, one shot the other dead.
Morons!
Steve W
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:57 PM
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I just bought s new mattress. The old one ain't worth much, certainly not a life.


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Old 09-21-2018, 11:01 PM
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Plenty of ignorance demonstrated there. Both father and son guilty of murder.
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Old 09-21-2018, 11:14 PM
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While in Detroit, I once responded to a mother stabbing her daughter to death on Christmas Day, fighting over the last pork chop. Another time a guy killed his brother after a argument over who was going to clean the fish they caught that day.
Obviously in these dysfunctional situations the steam has been building for some time before the perpetrator finally snaps over what seems like a petty incident. Add a little alcohol or drugs and the snap comes quickly.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vytoland View Post
humans = the intelligent species.....
Could've fooled me.
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