Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:06 PM
Thin Man Thin Man is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Southeastern South Dakota
Posts: 60
Likes: 347
Liked 46 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Say what you will about the various training regimens and weapon choices, but at the end of the day a magazine of CCI Stingers or Mini Mags headed in one's direction is highly likely to significantly alter one's choice in the victim selection process.
Nobody wants to "leak".
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #102  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:18 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Fair enough, but donít you have your own set of biases and preconceptions that always end up with a centennial revolver as the solution?
Absolutely. The reason I shared that article was due to his reasoning as to why the snub makes sense for civilian self-defense(in particular women), which is different when compared to what constitutes a fun or enjoyable range gun.

I'm not a fan of the any gun or caliber as being perfectly acceptable and praising an indvidual with absolutely no knowledge or experience making an uninformed choice.

A martial arts instructor wouldn't just tell a new student that all systems and techniques are equally effective and to just learn and practice whatever they like and don't consider context. And context is extremely important, but often completely overlooked. If a woman is wanting to learn practical defensive H2H skills and rape prevention as quickly as possible, she wouldn't be well served in achieving that goal spending hours practicing kata and kihon in a traditional karate dojo, but instructors can easily mislead uniformed people into believing such practices are necessary. I have seen countless people join a school with the intent and thinking they are learning methods oriented towards self-defense, when in reality the focus is actually on sport-fighting or "traditional" arts. Explain and show them the difference and most immediately get it.

I see choosing, learning to use firearms and sorting out context for personal defense being no different.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:26 PM
bigwheelzip's Avatar
bigwheelzip bigwheelzip is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 7,239
Likes: 8,837
Liked 17,159 Times in 4,279 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Follow up:

She ordered her handgun and texted me how excited she is to go shoot it and how she wants my wife to join her.
What a great follow up. Sharing your hobby with a sensitive shooter in a way that elicited informed interest, and an urge to shoot socially.

Congratulations on a job well done.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
  #104  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:36 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
You don't learn to run before you learn to walk. You would think a self proclaimed self defense expert would know this basic building block of life. I am truly starting to believe you are a legend in your own mind and have no clue what you are talking about.

Next you will start challenging people to a duel

We just have different perspectives on what the basics should consist of. The reason is you’re a shooter and my focus is self-defense. I understand your approach, but I don’t think you comprehend mind.

Last edited by Mister X; 10-10-2018 at 10:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:40 PM
Muss Muggins's Avatar
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: southeast Missouri
Posts: 9,983
Likes: 3,869
Liked 13,650 Times in 4,655 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
We just have different perspectives on what the basics should consist of. The reason is youíre a shooter and my focus is self-defense. I understand your approach, but I donít think you comprehend mind.
My earlier offer still stands . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:46 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
My earlier offer still stands . . .
And that is?
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:58 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
We just have different perspectives on what the basics should consist of. The reason is youíre a shooter and my focus is self-defense. I understand your approach, but I donít think you comprehend mind.
You donít know what I am. You hide behind your anonymity online and sling opinion and insult.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #108  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:02 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 289
Liked 6,953 Times in 2,922 Posts
Default

WOW! And I thought I was prone to flogging deceased ponies...

Anyway...

I applaud you eb07. You introduced a new shooter to firearms in a way that likely started her on the path to more effective self defense. And you did it despite the fact that she was already turned off by someone taking the exact approach advocated by those most critical of what you did and how you did it.

It's called baby steps. New shooters have to start somewhere and you have to start them at the level they are comfortable with. Anything else will elicit the response that this new shooter had in the past. They won't pursue it any further.

Again, nice job of helping her get started. I'd consider it a major step in the right direction if I could get my wife to carry a 22lr vs refusing to carry anything for self defense.

Last edited by BC38; 10-10-2018 at 11:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #109  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:08 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
You donít know what I am. You hide behind your anonymity online and sling opinion and insult.
What are you?

I formed my opinion simply on what you write and your responses to my posts. I determined you are untrained in the area I'm referencing, so you don't really understand it. How is that an insult?
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:15 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
What are you?

I formed my opinion simply on what you write and your responses to my posts. I determined you are untrained in the area I'm referencing, so you don't really understand it. How is that an insult?
I am the guy who thinks you are full of manure. But carry on with your fake superiority diatribe.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #111  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:18 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
I am the guy who thinks you are full of manure. But carry on with your fake superiority diatribe.
You've never explained how I'm wrong and how am I fake?
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:19 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 8,176
Liked 11,096 Times in 3,660 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
What are you?

I formed my opinion simply on what you write and your responses to my posts. I determined you are untrained in the area I'm referencing, so you don't really understand it. How is that an insult?
Leave it to you to derail yet another thread ruining things for the OP. When are you going to learn? This thread will soon be locked when it was going so well for the OP.

We would appreciate it if you would get off the soap box and give it a rest.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #113  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:24 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
You've never explained how I'm wrong and how am I fake?
You never proved you are not. Put up or move on. Troll
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #114  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:24 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanewpadle View Post
Leave it to you to derail yet another thread ruining things for the OP. When are you going to learn? This thread will soon be locked when it was going so well for the OP.

We would appreciate it if you would get off the soap box and give it a rest.
Itís ok. Never used the ignore list before. First time for everything.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #115  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:26 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
You never proved you are not. Put up or move on. Troll
Put up what?

I don't see how simply having a different perspective is trolling.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:30 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 8,176
Liked 11,096 Times in 3,660 Posts
Default

EB, you did well friend. I started my wife with 22LR 37 years ago. She graduated to a 9MM and is happy. She doesnít shoot much anymore because of rheumatoid arthritis, but she can defend herself if need be.

Continue with this lady. Teach her what you know. Hope she never has to use is but is prepared to do so.

Teaching another to be able to protect themselves is gratifying for you and them. Keep it up.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 10-10-2018, 11:31 PM
Kanewpadle's Avatar
Kanewpadle Kanewpadle is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Wrong side of Washington
Posts: 8,266
Likes: 8,176
Liked 11,096 Times in 3,660 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Itís ok. Never used the ignore list before. First time for everything.
Me either. Never got used to turning the other cheek. But as I get older, itís simply easier to ignore some people.
__________________
Life Is A Sunny Beach
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:00 AM
roscoepc roscoepc is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Marion, Va
Posts: 453
Likes: 409
Liked 411 Times in 172 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
Put up what?

I don't see how simply having a different perspective is trolling.

Don't listen to them Mister X!!! Your NOT a Troll.. You are merely someone who bloviates about how wrong someone is without saying just what the correct way is! And the post's about Martial Art's, Well.... That REALLY put everyone in their place!! I mean that has a lot to do with teaching someone how to shoot!!

But don't worry... I won't tell anyone about your secret on just how you kicked a basketball hoop when you were younger... We just can't have everyone going to the sporting goods store or Walmart and kick them while they are still in the box on the shelf....
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:35 AM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 289
Liked 6,953 Times in 2,922 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoepc View Post
Don't listen to them Mister X!!! Your NOT a Troll.. You are merely someone who bloviates about how wrong someone is without saying just what the correct way is! And the post's about Martial Art's, Well.... That REALLY put everyone in their place!! I mean that has a lot to do with teaching someone how to shoot!!

But don't worry... I won't tell anyone about your secret on just how you kicked a basketball hoop when you were younger... We just can't have everyone going to the sporting goods store or Walmart and kick them while they are still in the box on the shelf....
DUDE! C'mon!

This thread FINALLY about to get to the point where he MAYBE would have been ready to give it a rest - and instead you had to go cranking him up again?!?

Seriously?!?
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:57 AM
roscoepc roscoepc is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Marion, Va
Posts: 453
Likes: 409
Liked 411 Times in 172 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
DUDE! C'mon!

This thread FINALLY about to get to the point where he MAYBE would have been ready to give it a rest - and instead you had to go cranking him up again?!?

Seriously?!?
After 3 pages? Yeah, Seriously. This Twit has beaten on the OP for no good reason and he's not gonna quit.. Until he has to back to the Mall at least....
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:36 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 1,694
Likes: 6,581
Liked 820 Times in 487 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richochet View Post
The .22 LR has a lot of energy and the bullet will ricochet around in the body of the victim causing maximum damage.
A CCI CPRN Mini mag from a 4" pistol will give 91.314 FPE, while a Speer Gold dot 38 spcl 135 non + p will give you 171.308 FPE. The 22 lr does not have a lot of energy, and will not Ricochet around the body. I have heard this quote many times, with nothing to back it up. Autopsy results? Testing? Anything other than a repeated quote. I have seen many Pt's with 22 lr wounds, chest, leg,arm, torso, head, and autopsies and have never seen a 22 lr ricochet around a body. I have spoke to a few ME's that have never seen this action, they were from Chicago, Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Hackensack NJ. So please if you have any articles/papers/studies I would love to read them.

But, I do agree 100% that a 22 lr in the hand is better than a Katana in the safe. Should she get more training, we all should if we have the time, money and physical capability. My Mother carried a DAO J frame till she was 82 and could shoot it well. Illness prevented her from carrying that and she went to a Beretta 25 tip up. Better than fingernails . Be Safe,
__________________
NO PEACE NO JUSTICE
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:09 AM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoepc View Post
Don't listen to them Mister X!!! Your NOT a Troll.. You are merely someone who bloviates about how wrong someone is without saying just what the correct way is! And the post's about Martial Art's, Well.... That REALLY put everyone in their place!! I mean that has a lot to do with teaching someone how to shoot!!

But don't worry... I won't tell anyone about your secret on just how you kicked a basketball hoop when you were younger... We just can't have everyone going to the sporting goods store or Walmart and kick them while they are still in the box on the shelf....
I did outline my approach and have many times previously. The martial arts post was primarily an analogy, but unarmed skills is an integral part of fighting with a gun, but not range shooting. Some folks just can't understand the difference.

Not a secret and purely legitimate. I just prefer anonymity in certain instances.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:19 AM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
I did outline my approach and have many times previously. The martial arts post was primarily an analogy, but unarmed skills is an integral part of fighting with a gun, but not range shooting. Some folks just can't understand the difference.

Not a secret and purely legitimate. I just prefer anonymity in certain instances.
Your rants and raves, opinions, and blind assessments have absolutely nothing to do with a brand new shooter who was previously against firearms and never owned one.

Please bring it over to another thread or start your own for god sake! That way you can appear superior to all of us "untrained target shooters" who "don't know as much as you" and your online self esteem can soar to new heights. Then pat yourself on the back for a job well done educating all of us.

You have to learn to walk before you run. But you can't figure that one out.

I eagerly await your new thread educating all of us. Please be sure when you start it, you post up your credentials and experience that can be verified so we know you are not just another internet blowhard regurgitating things you read online.

Now adios and move on because I feel you have derailed this thread with enough off topic and not related opinion that would be better served in it's own thread.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #124  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:32 AM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 377
Likes: 101
Liked 453 Times in 187 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
I did outline my approach and have many times previously. The martial arts post was primarily an analogy, but unarmed skills is an integral part of fighting with a gun, but not range shooting. Some folks just can't understand the difference.

Not a secret and purely legitimate. I just prefer anonymity in certain instances.
Hate to keep this going, but it's so far off the rails, why not.

I think what several pretty experienced LEO's and retired LEO's have tried to point out is not a flaw in your approach, but a flaw in your assumptions. Those LEO's, that appear to have pretty deep experience investigating civilian shootings, don't believe entangled shooting encounters occur anywhere near as frequently as you believe they do. Even the Claude Werner stats you linked to mentioned that most encounters were "just beyond arms reach" which would imply no entanglement. Maybe CHP holders are less willing to let someone get that close. Maybe it's just good karma.

If you start with the assumption that every encounter is an entangled encounter, then the answer will always be dojo skills and a snub. If you start with stats that show most aren't entangled, a .22 will likely be a fine solution.
__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Last edited by Ziggy2525; 10-11-2018 at 10:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:35 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
Hate to keep this going, but it's so far off the rails, why not.

I think what several pretty experienced LEO's and retired LEO's have tried to point out is not a flaw in your approach, but a flaw in your assumptions. Those LEO's, that appear to have pretty deep experience investigating civilian shootings, don't believe entangled shooting encounters occur anywhere near as frequently as you believe they do. Even the Claude Werner stats you linked to mentioned that most encounters were "just beyond arms reach" which would imply no entanglement. Maybe CHP holders are less willing to let someone get that close. Maybe it's just good karma.

If you start with the assumption that every encounter is an entangled encounter, then the answer will always be dojo skills and a snub. If you start with stats that show most aren't entangled, a .22 will likely be a fine solution.
-Most civilian self-defense scenarios(all types) involve physical contact at some point during the confrontation.
-Most civilians don't carry a gun.
-Most civilians(especially women), don't have the ability to access, effectively use and retain a weapon in an ECQ scenario. ---In most favorable outcomes, the gun will already be out or the assailant(s) immediately break contact or the defender is able to break contact to gain an opportunity to draw their weapon. In negatives outcomes for the defender, they lose control of the weapon, the shots don't have the required effect or they never even get the weapon out.
Even so, Zimmerman/Martin type scenarios(standing or grounded) do occur and would happen much more often if more people carried and had the skills to handle the initial assault and effectively access their weapon during in-fighting.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:45 PM
Mister X Mister X is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 168
Liked 1,599 Times in 790 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Your rants and raves, opinions, and blind assessments have absolutely nothing to do with a brand new shooter who was previously against firearms and never owned one.

Please bring it over to another thread or start your own for god sake! That way you can appear superior to all of us "untrained target shooters" who "don't know as much as you" and your online self esteem can soar to new heights. Then pat yourself on the back for a job well done educating all of us.

You have to learn to walk before you run. But you can't figure that one out.

I eagerly await your new thread educating all of us. Please be sure when you start it, you post up your credentials and experience that can be verified so we know you are not just another internet blowhard regurgitating things you read online.

Now adios and move on because I feel you have derailed this thread with enough off topic and not related opinion that would be better served in it's own thread.
I thought I was going on your ignore list. You've already stated you think I don't know what I'm talking about, so why would you be interested in my creditionals or even believe what I post.

Why exactly did you start this thread? Did you just want everyone to congratulate you on a job well done? What is the purpose of that? Why can't someone disagree and offer a different perspective on this topic? If I'm trying to stoke my online self-esteem, I've got a very strange approach, especially with being anonymous.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:28 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
I thought I was going on your ignore list. You've already stated you think I don't know what I'm talking about, so why would you be interested in my creditionals or even believe what I post.

Why exactly did you start this thread? Did you just want everyone to congratulate you on a job well done? What is the purpose of that? Why can't someone disagree and offer a different perspective on this topic? If I'm trying to stoke my online self-esteem, I've got a very strange approach, especially with being anonymous.

Still going? I decided to hear you out so I did not ignore you. However your diatribe has gone way beyond the scope of a beginning shooter. I posted the thread to share my experience.

If I am wrong, post a new thread explaining your methods and justification. I will be open minded. I like to learn from people who actually know what they are talking about.

However, post your verifiable credentials like Massad Ayoob and other trainers do so we know you are legitimate and not just regurgitating stuff you read online. Maybe a lot of us will learn something. I am open to your opinion if you know what you are talking about and can prove it. Otherwise you are just another internet nobody who likes to argue.

Or just continue to argue online with vague references and vague opinions that cannot be verified and of justified.

What you do next will show me if you are for real or not. If you are I will offer my apologies and learn from you. I will be open minded. But you now need to prove yourself instead of just offering vague opinions that honestly I cannot figure without a clear understanding of your training methods. If you do not want to share your secrets without payment, then post up your business and maybe some of us will be inclined will take a course. I have taken quite a few force on force classes and am a member of a local group modeled after some of the classes we have taken. So I know a little bit about what you are talking about. I am a veteran been to foreign lands to fight foreign enemies and I have lived through a self defense experience which frankly I was young and unprepared for. but thankfully got through successfully. I have been in a few fights and feel that going to the ground is the last thing you want to do with an unknown and with unknowns around. Distance is your friend. So teach me.

I have asked that you legitimize your training methods and share them in a new thread. I think that is a reasonable request. Ball is in your court.

Last edited by eb07; 10-11-2018 at 02:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #128  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:55 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,131
Likes: 1,327
Liked 2,456 Times in 1,565 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vipermd View Post
A CCI CPRN Mini mag from a 4" pistol will give 91.314 FPE, while a Speer Gold dot 38 spcl 135 non + p will give you 171.308 FPE. The 22 lr does not have a lot of energy, and will not Ricochet around the body. I have heard this quote many times, with nothing to back it up. Autopsy results? Testing? Anything other than a repeated quote. I have seen many Pt's with 22 lr wounds, chest, leg,arm, torso, head, and autopsies and have never seen a 22 lr ricochet around a body. I have spoke to a few ME's that have never seen this action, they were from Chicago, Philadelphia, New Orleans, and Hackensack NJ. So please if you have any articles/papers/studies I would love to read them.

But, I do agree 100% that a 22 lr in the hand is better than a Katana in the safe. Should she get more training, we all should if we have the time, money and physical capability. My Mother carried a DAO J frame till she was 82 and could shoot it well. Illness prevented her from carrying that and she went to a Beretta 25 tip up. Better than fingernails . Be Safe,
I agree but the 22lr bouncing around inside the body can happen. Think Reagan being shot. My entire issue with the 22lr for SD is reliability. No one can claim they have NEVER had a 22lr fail to fire, rim fires have always been notorious for that. So I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:59 PM
fredj338's Avatar
fredj338 fredj338 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kalif. usa
Posts: 5,131
Likes: 1,327
Liked 2,456 Times in 1,565 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrkerr View Post
Who said anything about head shots? They were all body shots. Tap, rack, fire again? It was a revolver. One officer lived long enough to return fire at the fleeing vehicle, HITTING THE KILLER IN THE BACK!

So logically we shouldn't carry .38 Specials either? Geez!

(Broke my own rule.)
Anyone wants to use the 22lr, revo or semi is fine by me. I am just pointing out what should be obvious; it is an unreliable round & has little to offer in terminal ballistics unless cns is hit. I suppose though that a false comfort by those that choose a 22lr is better than abject fear.
BTW, thx for proving my point about terminal affect. The LEO that dies still managed to fight. That is kinda my point. Yes the 22lr will kill, but as a stopper, uh. no.
__________________
NRA Cert. Inst. IDPA CSO

Last edited by fredj338; 10-11-2018 at 03:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:13 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,659
Likes: 2,028
Liked 3,985 Times in 1,022 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Anyone wants to use the 22lr, revo or semi is fine by me. I am just pointing out what should be obvious; it is an unreliable round & has little to offer in terminal ballistics unless cns is hit. I suppose though that a false comfort by those that choose a 22lr is better than abject fear.
BTW, thx for proving my point about terminal affect. The LEO that dies still managed to fight. That is kinda my point. Yes the 22lr will kill, but as a stopper, uh. no.
I was very clear with her these exact shortcomings and issues with the round. Tried to steer her towards a 9mm semi or the j-frame. Wasn't having it. She made her choice anyway after I suggested that it was better than nothing at all. My guess is in a few months she will move up to something larger and more reliable/effective.

But the bottom line is all handgun rounds suck and without CNS hits anyone will continue fighting if they have the will and determination. Freeze, Fight, or Flight.....
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:29 PM
Muss Muggins's Avatar
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: southeast Missouri
Posts: 9,983
Likes: 3,869
Liked 13,650 Times in 4,655 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I agree but the 22lr bouncing around inside the body can happen. Think Reagan being shot.
That did not happen. All sources agree that the sixth and final bullet ricocheted off the armored side of the limousine and hit the president in the left underarm, grazing a rib and lodging in his lung, causing it to partially collapse, and stopping less than an inch (25 mm) from his heart . . .
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:38 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 289
Liked 6,953 Times in 2,922 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I agree but the 22lr bouncing around inside the body can happen. Think Reagan being shot. My entire issue with the 22lr for SD is reliability. No one can claim they have NEVER had a 22lr fail to fire, rim fires have always been notorious for that. So I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
That did not happen. All sources agree that the sixth and final bullet ricocheted off the armored side of the limousine and hit the president in the left underarm, grazing a rib and lodging in his lung, causing it to partially collapse, and stopping less than an inch (25 mm) from his heart . . .
I always figured the "bounce around in the body" thing must've come from an autopsy showing one entering the skull and ricocheting inside or hitting a rib or other heavy bone and then ricocheting at a sharp angle.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:59 PM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 1,165
Likes: 1,004
Liked 1,313 Times in 580 Posts
Default

Ok I'll bite...

I'm licensed to carry in my state..

I have absolutely no problems carrying a 22lr for self defense as long as it's an appropriate sized pistol. For example, on occasion I'll carry my Beretta mod 71. It is ridiculously reliable. My EDC alternates between a 32acp and a 380 and I get picked on by my pals at the range who carry larger mainstream calibers from 38 special to 40s&w.


My mindset is that I carry to defend myself. Not blow the offender's head off.. And if being shot or shot at stops the offender then the pistol regardless of caliber has done its intended purpose. It is no secret that we can for the most part all shoot a smaller caliber handgun faster and more accurately than larger caliber. I can fire off all 8 shots with my Beretta mod 71 in 22lr at 7 yards a heck of a lot faster and put all 8 rounds in the butter zone than my 38 special 642 snubby. Under stress and without warning which gun will put more rounds on the bad guy? The one you can shoot faster & more accurately with. If it's a 22lr or 25, or 32acp then so be it. Those rounds are lethal and can kill.

Get on YouTube guys, watch all the surveillance videos of civilian self defense in action and 99.9% of the time when a civilian pulls out a gun regardless of caliber, the bad guy/s take off. Caliber was not a factor.

My mindset, is to stop the person/s from attacking me. However mainstream magazines and online reviews & so called "experts" will lead us to believe that a successful defense is when you "incapacitate" the bad guy. Bigger is better yadda yadda yadda... Way too much talk about caliber and gel tests expansion bla bla bla... lets talk about actually being about to shoot and hit the target first... With that. I can guarantee with a 22lr, I will hit the target..

Last edited by RGVshooter; 10-13-2018 at 12:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #134  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:18 PM
wrkerr's Avatar
wrkerr wrkerr is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 105
Likes: 2
Liked 163 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Anyone wants to use the 22lr, revo or semi is fine by me. I am just pointing out what should be obvious; it is an unreliable round & has little to offer in terminal ballistics unless cns is hit. I suppose though that a false comfort by those that choose a 22lr is better than abject fear.
BTW, thx for proving my point about terminal affect. The LEO that dies still managed to fight. That is kinda my point. Yes the 22lr will kill, but as a stopper, uh. no.
Certainly stopped the other officer. And there were NO cns hits. Talk to me when you've been there and done that. I have! My partner has been in a wheelchair since 1979 from a freaking .22!!! And watch the video of the Reagan shooting. Secret Service Agent goes down FAST from a single .22.

Dang. Broke my rule again. I'm done. There is no reasoning with gun-shop commandos. It's their way or the highway. I'll take the highway.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:27 PM
wrkerr's Avatar
wrkerr wrkerr is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Puget Sound, WA
Posts: 105
Likes: 2
Liked 163 Times in 42 Posts
Default

Oh, and you missed MY point: the .38 Special didn't stop the killer either. So in this case, .22 .38 ... didn't matter. Carry what you want. Just don't think your opinion is Gospel.
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:41 PM
CelticSire's Avatar
CelticSire CelticSire is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 959
Likes: 855
Liked 736 Times in 196 Posts
Default

Before this gets locked...

I know a thing or two about shooting. And teaching others how to shoot. And being involved in actual shooting situations. But let's talk about horses. Specifically, training a cutting horse. You pick yourself a good horse that's quick and nimble on his feet. Now, he's not going to understand about cutting, he's not going to understand about wearing a saddle, he's not going to understand about wearing a bridle, or a lead rope, or reins, or just about anything about being a good cutting horse. You have to train him. I guarantee that if you go out first day and put a bridle and saddle on him and start trying to cut, one of two things is going to happen. You're going to get hurt, or you're going to get hurt. You have to start slow, get him used to the bridle and lead rope, introduce the saddle calmly, let him get used to your weight on his back, let him feel the bit and the reins and how to turn, get him used to the signals you give with your knees on which way to go. If you start him slow, let him work and learn at HIS pace, you'll have a darn fine cutting horse one day. Try and rush him, try and make him learn things he ain't ready to learn, and you'll ruin a horse. Same with the lady shooter. She is the one who decided that, for now, the .22 is the one she wants to shoot. She's learning the bridle and lead rope, as it were. The saddle and cutting will come soon enough. Try and rush it, and she'll decide nope, not gonna do it. The CQB scenarios and run and gun tactics can come later, when she's ready. At least for now, she's better off than she was.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #137  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:45 PM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 289
Liked 6,953 Times in 2,922 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticSire View Post
Before this gets locked...

I know a thing or two about shooting. And teaching others how to shoot. And being involved in actual shooting situations. But let's talk about horses. Specifically, training a cutting horse. You pick yourself a good horse that's quick and nimble on his feet. Now, he's not going to understand about cutting, he's not going to understand about wearing a saddle, he's not going to understand about wearing a bridle, or a lead rope, or reins, or just about anything about being a good cutting horse. You have to train him. I guarantee that if you go out first day and put a bridle and saddle on him and start trying to cut, one of two things is going to happen. You're going to get hurt, or you're going to get hurt. You have to start slow, get him used to the bridle and lead rope, introduce the saddle calmly, let him get used to your weight on his back, let him feel the bit and the reins and how to turn, get him used to the signals you give with your knees on which way to go. If you start him slow, let him work and learn at HIS pace, you'll have a darn fine cutting horse one day. Try and rush him, try and make him learn things he ain't ready to learn, and you'll ruin a horse. Same with the lady shooter. She is the one who decided that, for now, the .22 is the one she wants to shoot. She's learning the bridle and lead rope, as it were. The saddle and cutting will come soon enough. Try and rush it, and she'll decide nope, not gonna do it. The CQB scenarios and run and gun tactics can come later, when she's ready. At least for now, she's better off than she was.
Excellent analogy.

In fact someone already tried to introduce her to the saddle too early and nearly ruined her.

eb07 salvaged the situation.

She may become a good cuttin' horse yet
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:25 PM
Muss Muggins's Avatar
Muss Muggins Muss Muggins is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: southeast Missouri
Posts: 9,983
Likes: 3,869
Liked 13,650 Times in 4,655 Posts
Default

Well, in another world, comparing a grown wonan to a cutting horse would result in histrionics. I think it’s a bit mysoginistic myself. Too bad we can’t all continue to live in the 50’s. Time for this thread to close.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC38 View Post
Excellent analogy.

In fact someone already tried to introduce her to the saddle too early and nearly ruined her.

eb07 salvaged the situation.

She may become a good cuttin' horse yet
__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #139  
Old 10-12-2018, 12:16 AM
BC38's Avatar
BC38 BC38 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 6,314
Likes: 289
Liked 6,953 Times in 2,922 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
Well, in another world, comparing a grown wonan to a cutting horse would result in histrionics. I think it’s a bit mysoginistic myself. Too bad we can’t all continue to live in the 50’s. Time for this thread to close.
LOL, some of us never lived in the 50's - I for one wasn't born until 1962.

I also don't hang out in those "worlds" where the histronics that you refer to would occur, and if I thought this was one of them I wouldn't be here. The fact is that gender had nothing to do with my analogy. I'd apply the same analogy to a new male shooter who had been put off shooting by a bad previous experience and who had been successfully reintroduced to firearms.

But then I guess I'm just not PC enough to see the imaginary implied gender bias in the original analogy. Almost seems like a form of what they call projection.

And I kinda think it is up to the mods to decide when a thread needs to be closed, isn't it?

Last edited by BC38; 10-12-2018 at 03:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:13 AM
vipermd's Avatar
vipermd vipermd is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: U.P. Mi
Posts: 1,694
Likes: 6,581
Liked 820 Times in 487 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I agree but the 22lr bouncing around inside the body can happen. Think Reagan being shot. My entire issue with the 22lr for SD is reliability. No one can claim they have NEVER had a 22lr fail to fire, rim fires have always been notorious for that. So I wouldn't want to bet my life on it.
I absolutely agree that I would not want to use 22lr fo SD, secondary to frequent misfires compared to factory centerfire ammunition. I think EB07 did a great job in helping this new shooter find a place, and this may open avenues of discourse, and possible change in her feelings, beliefs, comfort level and may lead to a change in what she carries. Could she have BUD's training, Karate, knife fighting, and extreme CQC training- yes, but they probably are not and option. 30 years ago I could kick a bottle off your head, assuming your not over 6'7", now, I am lucky if I could kick my own leg!! I can not run, secondary to vertiginous issues, and always try to deescalate any situation, since I do not want a confrontation, since no one will will benefit either person. Still believe that 22 lr is better than fingernails. Be Safe,
__________________
NO PEACE NO JUSTICE
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:11 AM
OLDSTER's Avatar
OLDSTER OLDSTER is online now
SWCA Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 6,257
Likes: 5,407
Liked 3,825 Times in 1,162 Posts
Default

__________________
SWCA 2952
John
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #142  
Old 10-12-2018, 01:25 PM
PALADIN85020's Avatar
PALADIN85020 PALADIN85020 is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 7,124
Likes: 1,483
Liked 23,869 Times in 3,103 Posts
Default

__________________
- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #143  
Old 10-12-2018, 03:57 PM
crstrode's Avatar
crstrode crstrode is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 186
Likes: 122
Liked 283 Times in 109 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGVshooter View Post
so called "experts" will lead us to believe that a successful defense is when you "incapacitate" the bad guy.
RGVshooter, I agree with you.


Furthermore; causing the bad guy to run away incapacitates his bad intent. If he is not perforated it uncomplicates the aftermath for me.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #144  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:09 PM
BB57's Avatar
BB57 BB57 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 1,723
Likes: 762
Liked 3,620 Times in 1,126 Posts
Default

Stopped reading about half way through the page when the arguments started.

Rather an argue or take sides I'm just going to give my perspective for what ever it is worth.

1) A few years ago the FBI amended its qualification course after looking at agent involved shoots over the last 12 years or so. It found that about 75% of all agent involved shoots involved ranges of 3 yards or less and involved 3 shots or less fired by the agent in just a couple seconds.

Nationally the data for armed citizen and officer involved self defense shoots (as opposed to executing a search warrant on a crack house, etc) shows upwards of 90% occur at ranges of 5 yards or less in 5 seconds or less with 5 rounds or less fired by the armed citizen or officer.

2) LEOs do in fact have to go into dark places looking for scary people and thus face greater risks and greater potential to encounter multiple assailants, but those shoots are still statistically very low, and more often than not are predictable with the result that multiple officers will be involved at the start. That is a large reason why more shots are fired when more officers are present. The average of 3 increases to about 5 with 2 or 3 officers and to around 6 with more officers present.

Armed citizens do not have to, and should not be looking for scary people in dark and scary places. The should be using reasonable situational awareness to identify and make eye contact with prospective assailants long before they close the range enough to initiate an assault or robbery. The vast majority of the time, if a prospective victim sees an assailant at a distance, the assailant will pick an easier target. if the victim is armed and isn't afraid, a smart criminal won't hang around to find out why.

3) About 50 percent of all "stops" are psychological stops where the assailant was shot and essentially thinks "Golly...I got shot, I don't like getting shot, I'm going to stop doing what is causing me to get shot. In that 50% the cartridge used really doesn't matter as long as it does enough damage for the assailant to realize he or she has been shot.

4) It's the other 50% where the terminal performance of the bullet, bullet placement, and number of vital hits matter. In the extreme, the only thing that will immediately incapacitate an assailant is a hit in the central nervous system - the brain or upper spinal column.

A cardio pulmonary hit in the upper chambers of the heart or the large blood vessels immediately above it will produce a rapid incapacitation through rapid decrease in blood pressure, and lack of oxygen to the brain, but we're talking about 10-15 seconds of useful consciousness, and an assailant can do a lot of killing and wounding in 10 to 15 seconds.

5) Most LEOs are not "gun people" and don't shoot any more than is required to qualify once or twice a year. Most departments tend to suck at properly training officers and I still hear about officers who are issued a firearm and take their first shots in qualification. If they pass, they are considered good to go, with a total of 50-60 to maybe 100-120 rounds total fired, if they were lucky enough to get a practice run first. I shoot more than that in any given week.

6) Hit percentages for LEOs vary by department and their training programs as well as by distance (under or over 7 yards) and based on good or poor lighting conditions. But on average the hit percentage under 7 yards is around 20% and it gets worse at longer ranges as well as in low light. Which means LEOs are skipping about 80% of their rounds fired through the neighborhood. It's not a surprise at all given that the vast majority of officers report not using the sights at all during the engagement.

Some folks use that to justify not using the sights, but it's a poor argument as the reason officers don't use sights is not extreme stress but rather massively inadequate training. You default to your lowest level of mastered training under stress, and for most officers that operationalizes as "point the gun in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger as hard and fast as you can".

It's a good thing LEOs have things like sovereign immunity, department provided attorneys, department provided liability insurance and courts that are generally tolerant of both poor shooting and mistake of fact shoots (about 1 shoot in 5) where the suspect is believed to be armed but is ultimately found to have been unarmed.

As an armed citizen you have absolutely none of this and will be held criminally and civilly liable for every round you shoot from the time it leaves the barrel until it comes to rest...somewhere.


Thus, given 4), 5) and 6), the general rule is to shoot center of mass and keep shooting until the assailant is down. The same is true for armed citizens but it's in their best interests to learn to shoot well, and more importantly learn to use brains, common sense and good situational awareness to avoid ever having to shoot at all.

-----

With all that in mind:

A) I'm a big believer in shooting a handgun that actually fits the shooter's hand well and points naturally for them. If the handgun doesn't fit well, the shooter will never become truly proficient with it.

B) I'm also a big proponent of training shooters to use the sights and verify sight alignment each and every time they shoot. Start slow, and once the student masters sight alignment, trigger control, and most importantly once they've developed a consistent grip and related muscle memory, the student can start shooting progressively faster.

It works like this:

- The shooter learns to draw (slowly) from concealment while keeping their eyes on the target.

- As the sights come up into the student's line of sight, the student places their finger on the trigger, and places the front sight on the spot he or she wants to bleed.

- The shooter then pauses, and aligns the sights, and then maintains that alignment while they release the shot, adding pressure when the sight alignment is good and holding pressure when it looks bad.

- Over time, the more the student practices the more the student will find that the sight are already aligned as the sights come up into the line of sight. That's an artifact of the brain and the muscles in the arm and hand 'learning' exactly what they need to do to align the sights, and doing it in advance as the gun is brought up.

- At that point the "pause" becomes very brief and is just used to verify the need to shoot and that the front sight is on target. The rear sight alignment takes care of itself due to muscle memory.

- By that time the shooter will have also mastered trigger control and how to smoothly release the shot without disturbing sight alignment.

- Also by that time the shooter has so many repetitions that the process of placing the front sight on target is second nature and they'll do that even under extreme stress as it is an automatic response.

Now...it's still a good idea to practice long range slow fire from time to time to ensure the basics are not lost. The student will also want to learn how to draw and shoot from a close in retention position, and the student will want to learn good foot work while shooting (side stepping to avoid tripping over your feet) and moving toward cover.

C) I'm a big proponent of not bringing a shooter along too fast too soon in terms of cartridge.

- A .22LR pistol or revolver is the ideal initial handgun as it doesn't have objectionable recoil and it will help the student learn good sight alignment and trigger control - without developing a flinch.

- Once the student masters the .22 you can move up to a larger but still moderate caliber like .32 Auto, .380 ACP, .38 Special or perhaps 9mm Para in a larger handgun.

- Once the student has mastered that and is still flinch free over a long range session, you can look at a heavier recoiling caliber and/or a lighter handgun.


D) There are other factors to consider in handgun selection:

- Can the person readily operate the slide, or manipulate the trigger with adequate accuracy? A PPK/S or similar blow back operated pistol in .380 ACP might be a great fit for a woman, but if she cannot easily rack the slide (blow back .380s require heavy recoil springs), then it's a poor choice.

The same weapon in .32 ACP, with a lighter recoil spring, may be a better choice. Similarly, a locked breech design with an even lighter recoil spring may be an even better choice. For example the Kimber Micro .380 is about 10 oz lighter an a PPK/S but it is much easier to rack the slide and the felt recoil is about the same as the heavier PPK/S as the recoil impulse is spread out more and does not feel as sharp.

Technique also plays a role. if a woman shoots a PPK/S in .380 ACP well but has trouble racking the slide, teaching her to place her left hand over the top of the slide while gripping it while pulling her hand and wrist back into her side to anchor the pistol and then locking her right elbow and pushing forward on the grip with her right hand, using the larger muscles in her upper arm to produce the power to rack the slide may work well for her. It'll work for both administrative and tactical reloads.

E) People seldom shoot light weight handguns in significant calibers well. The Micro 9 is a good example. Most people can shot a Micro .380 well, and the Micro 9 is only slightly larger and heavier - and that's the problem. The recoil of a good 9mm Para self defense round is fierce in the Micro 9.

The same is true for a good .38 +P load in an airweight J-frame and that's true in spades for a J-Magnum frame .357 Magnum. I know a lot of people who like to carry them. I don't know anyone who shoots them really well, and very few of the people carrying them ever shoot them enough with full power loads to get really good with them. They are great carry guns if weight is your primary consideration, and they'll perhaps come in handy for the above mentioned psychological stops. However, if you ever really need to deliver multiple effective hits in a gun fight, you'll find you brought the wrong gun.

-----

The above points naturally lead the shooter to a pistol or revolver and cartridge that the person can shoot effectively.

For some folks that might be a .22 LR. That will be what it is and it'll be better than nothing, but .22LR has some serious limitations when it comes to self defense:

- Even high quality .22 LR ammo is less reliable than center fire ammo. It's just an unavoidable artifact of the priming system. Poor quality .22 LR can be incredibly unreliable, so if you choose to carry a .22LR buy quality ammo and shoot a lot of it in your firearm to ensure it is reliable. That will probably mean trying a few different brands.

- In a semi auto pistol, .22 LR is more susceptible to rim lock, where the rim of a cartridge in the magazine can end up behind the rim of the cartridge below it. Some magazines are worse than others, but you should always load the magazine for a .22 LR self defense pistol very carefully.

- the .22 LR is more effective and penetrates better than .25 Auto but that's the only thing it has going for it relative to other calibers. If recoil is an issue, .32 ACP is a much better choice and most shooters can manage it.

- Multiple hits with a .22LR are often lethal, but they make really small holes and seldom penetrate enough to get the CNS or cardio pulmonary hits you need to rapidly incapacitate an assailant. You may well kill the assailant but you also may well be dead yourself before he is incapacitated.

- 32 ACP is better, .380 ACP or a standard pressure .38 are better still, but .38 +p and 9mm Para, both tolerate shot barrels better and are where things really start getting effective.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #145  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:06 PM
Imissedagain's Avatar
Imissedagain Imissedagain is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Florida
Posts: 268
Likes: 17
Liked 124 Times in 79 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwheelzip View Post
What a great follow up. Sharing your hobby with a sensitive shooter in a way that elicited informed interest, and an urge to shoot socially.

Congratulations on a job well done.
Hobby????
There’s gotta be a better word than ... hobby.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:07 PM
ladder13's Avatar
ladder13 ladder13 is online now
SWCA Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 19,013
Likes: 23,912
Liked 19,184 Times in 7,403 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLDSTER View Post
Apparently he needs some testosterone. Thereís clearly an abundance in this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 10-13-2018, 12:22 AM
adwjc adwjc is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 782
Likes: 5,868
Liked 633 Times in 312 Posts
Default

BB57 hit many excellent points in his treatise.

Many here denigrate the .22, BB57 actually makes some sense of many of the "urban legends" concerning the unreliability of the .22.

As BB57 says, you need to try various brands and loads to find what works reliably in your firearm. Bulk ammo might be OK for practice, but you shouldn't carry it. Junk ammo by the pail full is not what you should trust your life with. In the instance of using .22 ammo, a revolver would obviously be the right firearm for the shooter he is dealing with.

I shoot several thousand rounds of .22 each year in Bulls Eye competition, as I state in another post, due to the shortages in the market a few years back, I had to buy a foreign brand from a country south of the border, the stuff is fairly good, but I get a failure rate of about 2%. I only use that stuff for practice, and use a CCI product for matches (no failures).

That being said, my choice for carry is no less than 380 ACP. If all I had was a .22, I would carry that using proven, quality ammo.

Trying to get back on track, accolades to the OP for getting a non shooter into the ranks, even if she will only shoot a .22 right now.
__________________
Tony
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #148  
Old 10-13-2018, 07:17 AM
keith44spl's Avatar
keith44spl keith44spl is online now
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,376
Likes: 9,324
Liked 19,607 Times in 3,900 Posts
Default

Gees,

What a bunch of ol ladies..........

A 22 LR in the hand beats the hell outta of a knittin' needle.


.

Oh, I've been shot with a 22 lr hp....
Don't really want any more of it neither. Ouch and double ouch.

.
__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #149  
Old 10-13-2018, 08:08 AM
crazyphil crazyphil is offline
US Veteran
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 3,690
Likes: 9,266
Liked 10,559 Times in 2,576 Posts
Default

The NRA tells us that every year there are approximately 2 million
incidents where people use guns for self defense. In 96% of these
incidents shots are not necessary because of the intimidation value
of the gun.

When shots are necessary, about two thirds of the remaining 4%
stop voluntarily. Maybe they were not even hit. Maybe they were
hit but it did not cause a deadly wound. Whatever the cause, they
don't want to get shot at again, so they run, or stop and surrender.

The remaining approximately 1.36% is our main concern. Up to this
point the lowly .22 can, and does, fill the bill. But when the S.H.T.F.
we need to stop the attack.

I have not been in enough gun fights to think of myself as an expert,
so I rely on folks who have been there and done that. People like
Jim Cirillo and Bob Stasch.

Jim was in a lot of gun fights, but he said he had only seen 2 one shot
stops. They were both shots to the brain. He said even accurate heart
shots are not instant stoppers. Bob's experience is similar.

A solid hit to the attacker's deep brain will cause immediate
incapacitation. The deep brain is right behind the attacker's nose.

Practice getting your gun out quickly and shooting accurately
at close range. Practice moving, blocking, and parrying, while doing
so.

That's my 2 cents worth.
__________________
In Omnia Paratus

Last edited by crazyphil; 10-13-2018 at 08:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #150  
Old 10-13-2018, 09:11 AM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
Member
I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 377
Likes: 101
Liked 453 Times in 187 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyphil View Post
The NRA tells us that every year there are approximately 2 million
incidents where people use guns for self defense. In 96% of these
incidents shots are not necessary because of the intimidation value
of the gun.

When shots are necessary, about two thirds of the remaining 4%
stop voluntarily. Maybe they were not even hit. Maybe they were
hit but it did not cause a deadly wound. Whatever the cause, they
don't want to get shot at again, so they run, or stop and surrender.

The remaining approximately 1.36% is our main concern. Up to this
point the lowly .22 can, and does, fill the bill. But when the S.H.T.F.
we need to stop the attack.

I have not been in enough gun fights to think of myself as an expert,
so I rely on folks who have been there and done that. People like
Jim Cirillo and Bob Stasch.

Jim was in a lot of gun fights, but he said he had only seen 2 one shot
stops. They were both shots to the brain. He said even accurate heart
shots are not instant stoppers. Bob's experience is similar.

A solid hit to the attacker's deep brain will cause immediate
incapacitation. The deep brain is right behind the attacker's nose.

Practice getting your gun out quickly and shooting accurately
at close range. Practice moving, blocking, and parrying, while doing
so.

That's my 2 cents worth.
It’s all about assessing your risk, right? There’s something like 225 million adults in the US. Using your numbers from the NRA, that would mean there’s a .01% (1x10e-4) chance in any year of being in a circumstance that a .22 might not work. That doen’t factor in any skew that occurs due to people’s bad lifestyles choices (people that buy illegal drugs, etc.) or the crime rate where people live. I don’t carry a .22, but even a .22 improves your odds a lot.
__________________
Vegan by proxy.

Last edited by Ziggy2525; 10-13-2018 at 09:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recommended reading on self-defense? Protected One Concealed Carry & Self Defense 27 Today 07:31 PM
Conceal carry Xvegasmedic Smith & Wesson SD & Sigma Pistols 19 11-19-2016 05:38 PM
recommended modifications M&P 40 Mid size for conceal/ home defense ctr1970 Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 4 08-10-2016 06:55 PM
Recommended Brands of 22LR ammo Knightheart Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 14 03-22-2016 10:48 AM
nc conceal carry MAXIMUS1968 Concealed Carry & Self Defense 4 05-22-2012 08:49 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2018
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)