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Old 10-08-2018, 02:36 PM
eb07 eb07 is offline
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I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
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Default I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry today

Good friend's wife. Never like firearms. Had an incident at work with a crazy client and decided it was time to protect herself.

Goes to gun shops, gets pushed into the normal rigmarole of buy a snub, buy a glock 9, buy an LCP, buy this, buy that. Was very confused and intimidated. My friend is also not a "gun guy" but he owns one.

So I offered to take her to the desert and let her shoot some of my collection to get an idea of what SHE wants.

Started off with the Ruger Sr-22. Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face.

Shot this for a while until she was comfortable.

Went to the LCR 22WMR. Was ok with recoil but did not like trigger and sights. Just wasn;t a fan of the revolver much to my dismay but it's her choice right?

Moved her to the 442 so she could experience 38sp. Even with 148gr wadcutters, did not like recoil and the sights and was completely inaccurate and uncomfortable with the trigger pull ( which is sweet and has been worked over by Nelson Ford). Hurt her hands. So removed boot grip and threw on pachmayr. Still didn't like it.

Went to the P3AT. Could not rack slide. Hated sights. hated recoil. Hated grip. Could barely pull the trigger. Same thing with LCPII although trigger was a little better. Hated both of the mouse guns.

Moved up to micro nines. Nano, 43, and LC9. Did not like the recoil on any of them and was scared of them. Had a hard time racking slides. Wasn't a fan.

Gave her G26 with extended grip. Still hated trigger and recoil and grip. Could not rack slide.

After a some time out there which I let her dictate how much she shot, she informed me that she was scared to come out in the beginning but starting off with the 22 made her feel way more comfortable and she was still sacred of the other handguns. So we went back to the SR22 and worked on accuracy and manipulations.

She felt more comfortable with the Sr-22 for these reasons:

1. She could rack the slide
2. The grip was comfortable
3. Recoil wasn't scary
4. Manual safety and magazine disconnect made her feel safer ( which I feel is important for a new shooter)
5. She could easily load the magazines

So after discussing with her the trade offs of using 22LR as a self defense round I told her that she should go with what she is comfortable with and actually enjoyed shooting, rather than buy something she could not manipulate and was scared off.


I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it.

She isn't anti-gun just scared of them. Now she is all excited to go shooting with my wife and I am 100% sure that after a few months of practice, her confidence and skill will build and she may want to try a larger gun on her own terms instead of being pushed into one. Plus it will be cheap to shoot and she can go with us as we go out weekly to improve her skills.

After observing her skills and fear of recoil, I think I made the right recommendation so as not to scare or lose someone new to the sport.


So yeah, I recommended a 22 LR for the first time ever.

Last edited by eb07; 10-08-2018 at 02:38 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-08-2018, 02:48 PM
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I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
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Very nice job, that's how it should be done!

And like I tell new shooters in the same boat, a loaded 22 on your person is one heckuva lot better than calling 911.
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Old 10-08-2018, 02:53 PM
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Good job eb07. Whenever I would teach someone to shoot, and there
have been quite a few, I would start with a .22 too. Then gradually
work up in caliber, and using some revolvers and some semi-autos.
I think you handled her indoctrination just right and I'll bet she
appreciates you.
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:06 PM
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Ditto and double ditto.

I have a dear friend who loves her SIG P-938. The only problem is that she can't shoot it worth jack and she used to be good with a S&W .22 caliber snubbie revolver. I think that her husband, a very good friend of mine, doesn't see the issue. Next time we are together I will show them the problem.

WELL DONE eb07!!!!
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:10 PM
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Hello, I have to agree with your thoughts, I’ve let my wife try many different guns, lcr,jframes,shields,mp9c,glocks,NAA, and the only thing she will carry is a MP22 compact. Go figure!
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:11 PM
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I've always subscribed to the theory that a hit ( or several) with a .22 is better than a miss ( or several) with a .45.
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:12 PM
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Didn't James Bond carry a Beretta .22 caliber semi automatic originally? at least until he was ordered by M to turn it in for a Walther PPK.

The .22 LR has a lot of energy and the bullet will richochet around in the body of the victim causing maximum damage.

I have read that Mafia assassins carry .22LR caliber pistols.

My first revolver was a Smith Kit gun in .22 LR with 4 inch barrel when I was 10 years old. I learned early to respect the .22 LR.
No kidding!
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:41 PM
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At least she has a gun. You did good.
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:47 PM
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Now that's the way to help a new shooter. The LGS I most often go to doesn't tell first time shooters, especially women, what to buy. They tell them go to a range and try out different calibers and guns to see what fits their needs and abilities to use.

I have been in gun stores and have seen husband and wives wanting a gun for protection but they have no idea what to get. When my wife wanted a gun for protection and I really didn't know squat about what gun would be good for self protection. We went to a gun show and we asked the vendor what he suggested. He suggested a 38 spl S&W model 36 Rossi clone because it wasn't overly heavy, was a very safe gun for an inexperienced shooter, was easy to use and dependable. We paid $185 for it new in the original box. The wife had no problem shooting the gun and wasn't scared of using it. I still have that gun after 30 years and it still is dependable and accurate.

If I could make a suggestion to gun ranges that also sell guns is advertise one night a week or a month for people interested in getting a gun to come and shoot some to see what they would like and can handle effectively. I know there are many that do have these classes. Have a short class on how to safely handle guns before they let them start shooting. Can you imagine how many new shooters could end up drawing blood because not knowing how to hold a semi auto or revolver safely? I guarantee there are many people that buy a new gun and don't bother reading the gun manual and safe use of the gun.

Anyway kudos to your helping a new shooter enjoy the world of guns. I do have the Ruger SR22lr and it is an enjoyable gun to shoot.
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:48 PM
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I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
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My significant other also prefers a 22 over any other caliber, including light 38 special loads out of her 640-1. For purse carry she also prefers the 351c in 22 mag over the 640. (It did take her some time to warm up to the heavy but smooth trigger)

Her first pistol was a 22A which fit her hand well, was easy to operate and maintain and was very accurate. She traded that in for a 617-6 10 shot 4 inch and hasn't looked back since. She rocks it in an old Hunter OWB rig with rentention strap filled with 10 CCI Stingers. We've shot about a 1000 Stingers through it and have never had a single fail to fire. For these reasons, I'm supportive of her preference for it. It should also be noted that I lost track of the round count in the 351c after 1000, and still to this day have not had a failure to fire. It mostly sees CCI but its digested winchester and armscor just fine too.

I believe that 22s can be reliable enough for protection use, but I highly recommend putting the time and practice into finding a super reliable round and be accurate with the first shot/followups.

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Old 10-08-2018, 03:49 PM
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I would prefer a .22 to no gun. Good job on showing her the ropes.
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Old 10-08-2018, 03:58 PM
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My wife's first carry gun was a Bersa Firestorm 22. She could shoot lights out with that little gun, and with CCI Mini-Mags it NEVER malfunctioned. She'd tried a 38, but didn't care for it. "I like this one." She said. Good enough for me.

She carried that little Bersa for years, before she decided on her own that she wanted something bigger. Now she has a Bersa 380 which she shoots just as well.

(She's not recoil sensitive either. I was shooting a 4", Model 29 one afternoon, when she asked to try it. You sure? Yes. After six rounds she turned to me with a shrug and said, "I thought you said this thing kicked?)
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:05 PM
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YOU DID AN OUTSTANDING JOB ! ! !

MAKE SURE THAT YOU TEACH HER HOW TO CLEAR A JAM. SEMI-AUTOS ARE PRONE TO JAM WITH JUNK AMMO.....

I SUGGEST THAT SHE SHOOT CCI MINI-MAGS---A 40GR, GILDED LEAD ROUND NOSE SOLID, THAT IS EXTREMELY RELIABLE, VERY ACCURATE, AND CLEAN BURNING......

BECAUSE THE BULLET IS NOT EXPOSED LEAD, COVERED WITH A HEAVY COAT OF LUBE, THE ACTION DOES NOT GET GUMMED UP---THUS MITIGATING THE PROBLEM OF FAILURES TO EXTRACT/EJECT.....
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:07 PM
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A hail of .22LR is sure better than nothing.

Good of you to put in the effort.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:08 PM
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Many years ago I came to the conclusion that the best choice for HD/SD/CC is a gun.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:15 PM
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Good job working with her. If she’s not comfortable with a firearm she won’t shoot it well. Confidence is the best defense.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richochet View Post
Didn't James Bond carry a Beretta .22 caliber semi automatic originally? at least until he was ordered by M to turn it in for a Walther PPK.

The .22 LR has a lot of energy and the bullet will richochet around in the body of the victim causing maximum damage.

I have read that Mafia assassins carry .22LR caliber pistols.

My first revolver was a Smith Kit gun in .22 LR with 4 inch barrel when I was 10 years old. I learned early to respect the .22 LR.
No kidding!
It was a Beretta model 418 in 25 acp. but close enough
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:26 PM
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Good eb07! I always start new shooters off with a .22 also. Usually one of my Ruger Mark II or III pistols and work up from there.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:41 PM
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Remember John Hinkley ?? Damn near took out the US Gov't with a six shot "Saturday night special revolver" stoked with .22 shorts.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:43 PM
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Bubba, ya done good!
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:44 PM
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While you're at it, maybe have her check out one of the Beretta tip-up barrel semiautos, like the Tomcat or the Bobcat. I've never shot either, but I read a Shooting Illustrated article claiming there have been .32 cal. defensive ammo advances. Both models are easy to load, and have a 7-round magazine.
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Old 10-08-2018, 04:54 PM
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I gave both my grown daughters a .22 revolver for all the reasons enumerated above. During my 30 year career I saw more folks felled by the lowly .22 than anything else and if that’s what you can shoot best, no problem. It’s better than nothing.
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Old 10-08-2018, 05:21 PM
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Many people tend to regard the .22 rimfires more as toys than real firearms. The reality is that modern .22LR ammo is extremely reliable, very accurate, and has a long history of defensive use. From a handgun there is no great difference in velocities between so-called "standard" loads and so-called "premium" ammo. From a handgun it is doubtful at best that any bullet, regardless of design, will reliably expand or otherwise cause greater trauma or wound cavity than any other bullet.

As several others have pointed out, a hit on target with a .22 is far more effective than a miss with any larger caliber.

The only reservation I would raise is the relative standards of reliability when comparing commonly available .22 rimfire ammo. Not every revolver will reliably discharge every variation of ammo available. Not every semi-auto will reliably feed, fire, extract, eject or otherwise function with complete reliability using every type of ammo available.

The wise person will carefully evaluate the performance of a handgun with the specific ammo to be carried, and when a reliable match is found that shooter will lay in a stockpile of that ammo (same manufacturer, lot number, etc) for long-term use in practice and carry. When the time comes to resupply on ammo it will again be time to carefully evaluate available choices, since ammunition from any manufacturer will be significantly different from one production lot to another.

.22 rimfire ammunition is manufactured domestically (USA) by multiple producers in increments of BILLIONS of rounds annually, and by all worldwide producers in increments probably approaching a trillion or more per year. Packaging varies. Promotional sales will vary. The same manufacturer's name, product number, and SKU may give some indication of contents of the packaging, but the actual contents may vary widely.
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Old 10-08-2018, 05:43 PM
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Good job on helping a new shooter find their way. There are too many that don't take into consideration how a new shooter feels, and they suggest something that, while easy to shoot to them, is not the best choice and scares some away from the sport.

My only change would be to start with the 22 ( revolver and semi-auto ) then move up to something bigger, but not use the j frames or micro guns. They can be a challenge to shoot for people who have some experience. For a new person they are a handful, and not very good for teaching a newbie the ropes.

My other half has gone out shooting with me numerous times, and while she enjoyed the 22s,and my .36 black powder revolver , anything much bigger she wasn't too interested in. She did like the 39-2 I have, but it was right on the edge of her comfort zone.

I wouldn't have her shoot the 642 or PA-63 I have because they would be more of a turn off for her.
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Old 10-08-2018, 05:57 PM
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Thanks for representing the firearm community in a responsible, considerate manner - Well Done!!!
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:11 PM
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Good job !!
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Old 10-08-2018, 06:28 PM
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What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
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Old 10-08-2018, 07:32 PM
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What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
Well, here is where you and I completely disagree.

I will have a woman who is confident and will be eager to come out and continue to hone her skills and can make her own choices rather than push something on her due to worrying about caliber effectiveness rather than skill and have the firearm sit in the drawer unused forever.

We gained a once "scared of guns" woman to the fold rather than pushing her into a "service caliber" because the internet told me I have to have one for self defense and then she is still scared of it and never uses it.

Not to mention she can't even hit the target so her five rounds of 38 special go everywhere but where they are supposed to go due to stress, recoil, grip, and trigger pull. What good is it? She should have just carried an axe.


Or should her husband just force her to train with a 38 which she hates? That would be great for her. I am sure she would look forward to that.


Kudos to your mom but not all humans are created equal, and for your info, I am almost 50, in great shape, workout four times a week, train for self defense and hate target shooting.

I am 100% confident I did the right thing and a year from now, she will be a better shooter because of it.

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Old 10-08-2018, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
What an uninformed, uneducated and untrained individual likes is largely irrelevant. They have no knowledge or experience in which to make any kind of informed decision. What they prefer in the context of shooting after one range visit means little in the context of what would be an effective self-defense choice.

Most gun guys tend to be "shooters", whose training is limited to static range shooting, who want to get people involved in range shooting in the same manner they do it and approach personal defense from this perspective, but shooting and armed self-defense(fighting with a gun) are two very different things, just like there is a big difference between certain martial arts and practical unarmed self-defense. If a woman is solely interested in learning effective H2H methods and rape prevention skills, she is going to have to undertake training that is relatively strenuous and involves some compromising positions. The local mcdojo will likely be more fun, easier to learn and perhaps not involve participating in training methods utilizing techniques which many find uncomfortable, but she won't likely learn skills that would be applicable in an actual assault and instead simply gain a false sense of confidence.

I've lost count of the number of people who my mother said have recommended she get a .22, but the reasons they give for their suggestion are always isolated to target shooting. My mother is a pragmatic, and is only interested in choosing the most effective tool for the most likely realistic scenarios she will face as an armed civilian and her weapon of choice is an S&W 442. She chose this weapon after thoroughly educating herself by studying the competing arguments for and against various weapons, considering the most likely potential threats and scenarios she would encounter as an armed civilian, her likely response and how each weapon would be used and perform in them and came to the conclusion that the supposed negatives of the .38 snub really only applied to target shooting and it's strengths were likely to be beneficial in the most probable actual personal defense situations. Shooting, being a shooter, the shooting or gun community had nothing to do with it as it shouldn't.

A .22 is no doubt better than nothing, but I would never recommend one for personal defense unless there was some sort of severe physical impairment. No way would I ever want my wife or mother to depend on one in matters of life and death.
So I suppose that your position is that regardless of her skill and comfort level, she should have a larger caliber gun that she can't shoot well, won't practice with and wouldn't carry than a .22 that she is comfortable and capable of using.

While I see the .22 as one of the last possible choices, it is far preferable to being unarmed.

Like shoes, guns are NOT a one size fits all solution and the arrogance to suggest otherwise is defeating the goal of enabling someone to defend themselves.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:37 PM
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[QUOTE=eb07;140192625

I am 100% confident I did the right thing and a year from now, she will be a better shooter because of it.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you 100%. Larry
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:49 PM
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a S&W model 63-5 and a box of CCI mini mags are AOK for SD.....
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:51 PM
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The only time I had to pull a gun for defense ( of myself and soon to be wife) was 33 years ago. It was a lowly Jennings J-22 but just the sight of it sent the three would be assailants running. Proving the point that any weapon is better than no weapon .
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:58 PM
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Well, here is where you and I completely disagree.

I will have a woman who is confident and will be eager to come out and continue to hone her skills

I am 100% confident I did the right thing and a year from now, she will be a better shooter because of it.
Considering the demographics and background of those that make up the majority of this forum, I'd expect most members will disagree with me on this topic. I'm ok with that.

What skills is she honing that will help her in an actual defense scenario?

Being a better shooter on the context you presented will not necessarily make her more capable of defending herself effectively.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:05 PM
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Good job. I'm sure it will work just fine for her.

I worked violent crime on Indian reservations in the wild west for 17 of my 25 years in the FBI. I worked many, many shootings (both fatal and non-fatal) and the predominant caliber was the lowly .22 LR (because everybody had one.)

I didn't have a single shooting where a person continued their aggressive behavior after being shot (or shot at) with a .22 caliber weapon. Not one.

I have come to believe that hardware (gun type, caliber, ammo selection) is the least important aspect of self defense.

PS - when my geezerly wrists and hands finally succumb to years of .45 caliber abuse, I have a very nice Beretta Model 87 .22 standing by to see me through my golden years.

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Old 10-08-2018, 09:15 PM
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Considering the demographics and background of those that make up the majority of this forum, I'd expect most members will disagree with me on this topic. I'm ok with that.

What skills is she honing that will help her in an actual defense scenario?

Being a better shooter on the context you presented will not necessarily make her more capable of defending herself effectively.
Confidence and lack of fear of handguns. That right there is the best reason. Can’t understand how you don’t get that.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:28 PM
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Confidence and lack of fear of handguns. That right there is the best reason. Can’t understand how you don’t get that.
False confidence is not a good thing and fear can be overcome with a minimal amount of education and proper training.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:29 PM
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False confidence is not a good thing and fear can be overcome with a minimal amount of education and proper training.
Ok. But then she won’t buy or shoot a gun. You can’t force people into something. Your solution is completely wrong. It isn’t false confidence.

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Old 10-08-2018, 11:17 PM
roscoepc roscoepc is offline
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Considering the demographics and background of those that make up the majority of this forum, I'd expect most members will disagree with me on this topic. I'm ok with that.

That's Great cuz I disagree with you..

What skills is she honing that will help her in an actual defense scenario?

You are REALLY asking this question?? Seriously????? The lady is only developing the ONE basic skill that is required to survive a self defense situation: The ability to hit the Target!!! EVERY self defense thread I've read all boils down to one thing and it's NOT caliber or the amount of ammo the gun holds. It's Bullet Placement, Center Mass..... Period...

Being a better shooter on the context you presented will not necessarily make her more capable of defending herself effectively.

From what I read the lady wants a caliber she's comfortable with which will make her extremely capable.. So what context are you talking about??
My post is in the quote above....
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:19 PM
roscoepc roscoepc is offline
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Ok. But then she won’t buy or shoot a gun. You can’t force people into something. Your solution is completely wrong. It isn’t false confidence.
Stay the course eb07 and Great Job!!!! Mister X seems to just want to argue.....
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:36 AM
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Stay the course eb07 and Great Job!!!! Mister X seems to just want to argue.....
I understand his point and it applies to 99% of cases. Just not this one.
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Old 10-09-2018, 10:15 AM
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Good Job! Maybe some day she would be a candidate for a .380EZ, and maybe not!

A .22 will kill you pretty dead! Especially if she knows how important shot placement is!

That Walther P22 is also a nice gun, for not much money! Walther P22 QD 22LR Rimfire Pistol with Decocker | Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore

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Old 10-09-2018, 12:27 PM
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My context is effective personal protection/learning how to fight with a gun and that is what the woman in the OP was wanting, but what she received was a shooting/shooting sports perspective as these statements from it illustrate...

"Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face."

"I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it."

Civilian self-defense encounters are almost always quick, dirty and occur at contact or point blank ranges. How to get the weapon into the fight is obviously vital and often extremely difficult, but seldom trained by "shooters". The same applies to weapon retention. Firing from stable stances, with a secure two handed grip using a traditional sight picture is not something that is likely to occur in an actual civilian scenario. Since there was mention of a "client" being a possible threat in the OP, that tells me she is working in close proximity to the individual(s) she is concerned with, so a contact scenario even the more likely. Despite what some instructors may say, it's difficult to keep a semi-auto running in an ECQ situation no matter the training of the individual.

Semi-autos need a certain amount of stability to cycle reliably, but will she be able to keep that .22 auto running while moving, with a crappy one handed grip, while possibly being in physical contact with her assailant? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Plus figure in the finicky nature of .22 autoloaders and of rimfire cartridges themselves. Consider the low stopping power potential of the .22 combined with an untrained woman, who may possibly be older, so situational awareness, reflex and quickness of action and thought aren't going to be on the high end of the spectrum, meaning it going to contact highly probable. If if she has distance, she would likely run out of time.

I've come to notice gun guys seem to have a certain disdain or dismissal for physical fighting and like to take the perspective that they will always have a certain amount of time and distance on their side to effectively "smite their foe" from a safe distance and that that they will be capable of doing so despite no training beyond static range work, but that unfortunately isn't reality. And while I would absolutely agree that the vast majority of civilian armed defense situations are resolved by simply producing a weapon or as soon as shots are fired, that cannot and should not be counted on. She may not be able to break contact or convince the assailant(s) they have somewhere else to be and should move on to another easier victim. She may have to physically stop them and I just don't think a .22 is acceptable in that context, because even if there is adequate separation to get off multiple shots, she would have to make fairly precise hits, while in a panic, against a moving target, while she is likely in motion herself, which she will likely never practice and even if she did, that would be an ideal scenario not what is likely.

I think she would be much better armed with an enclosed hammer snub in .38 special. Standard pressure ammunition is extremely mild and neither my wife, mother or even grandmother(in her 90's) have any significant problems with it. If she absolutely insists on a .22, there are choices available in revolvers.

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Old 10-09-2018, 01:13 PM
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The only time I had to pull a gun for defense ( of myself and soon to be wife) was 33 years ago. It was a lowly Jennings J-22 but just the sight of it sent the three would be assailants running. Proving the point that any weapon is better than no weapon .
Almost 60 years ago when I was in college, my girlfriend and I were in my car "admiring the moonlight" on the desert at night, when a truck full of yahoos came barreling up to us, putting us in the truck's headlights. One of them yelled "Let's go" and they began to exit the truck.

I had a Ruger .22 standard model (my first handgun) in the glove compartment, so I pulled it out, held it up to make it visible, and jacked a round into the chamber.

"He's got a gun!"

Immediately, they all jumped back in the truck and took off in a cloud of dust.

I'm a great believer that a .22 in the hand is WAY better than nothing at all. This was the only time in my life that I ever had to pull a gun. I'm positive it prevented some really bad stuff from happening.

John

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Old 10-09-2018, 01:20 PM
Ziggy2525 Ziggy2525 is offline
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....
Civilian self-defense encounters are almost always quick, dirty and occur at contact or point blank ranges.
...
I always appreciate your perspective, but am wondering what your source for this is. I've seen you reference Tom Givens before, but when I look at his statistics for the 66 civilian shootouts his students have been in, 92.5% were between 3 and 7 yards. Only 3% were under 2 yards. He says his stats parallel the 20 to 30 shooting/year where FBI agents were "robbed" when bad guys didn't realize they were robbing FBI agents.

Here's a link...
http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/up...Newsletter.pdf
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Old 10-09-2018, 01:32 PM
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Hang on, he's about to recommend enrolling her in eee-see-kew-see.

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Old 10-09-2018, 01:55 PM
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Very good job. I work at Gateway Canyons Resort teaching shooting to our guests. We put over 1200 people through our shoots last year. I specialize in handgun since it was my thing for all my years as an police officer. I purchased three of the new Mark 1V Rugers for the program and often start off new or inexperienced shooters off with them before moving them up to one of our many 9mm choices. It is paramount that you find a very reliable .22 and very reliable ammunition to shoot out of it if you shoos it for self defense use. I have had many, many failures to feed and extract with a variety of bulk ammo that we have used in the program. I have also experienced ammo that would not fire. .22's can be extremely finicky with regard to ammo that they will feed/extract reliably. I purchased a Beretta model 87 for my wife and sold it when she decided to go to a revolver instead. Wish I had kept it. It was 100 percent reliable and one of the best .22's that I have ever owned. As old cop said, I investigated several homicides where a .22 was used with great effect. Not my first choice but I have told many people that I would rather have them hit someone with several .22's than miss them with a more powerful round that they can't control.
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Old 10-09-2018, 01:59 PM
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I could NEVER in good faith recommend a 22lr to anyone for SD. Two reasons; incredibly poor terminal performance & 22lr is notorious for being unreliable.
Recoil is a managed thing, isn't gonna happen on day one. A larger frame 380 would be the minimum. Recoil is milder than the small guns & more grip for more control. A steel frame 9mm would be next up, something like a 5906 or even single stack 1911. If anyone has difficulty racking the slide on just about any pistol, it is poor technique that is the issue. I can get an 8y or 80y old to rack a pistol slide, proper technique is the issue.
I start all my new shooters, old, young, male, female, strong or weak with a 22lr. Then we start moving up. I have gotten brand new shooters shooting decently with a 1911 & 45 target loads. 38sp wc are almost as soft as 22lr & a 3"-4", medium size 357mag with 148gr WC is a no joke decent SD gun with minimal recoil. If you can shoot a 22lr you can shoot that.
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:57 PM
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I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today I recommended a 22LR for self defense/conceal carry  today  
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Originally Posted by Mister X View Post
My context is effective personal protection/learning how to fight with a gun and that is what the woman in the OP was wanting, but what she received was a shooting/shooting sports perspective as these statements from it illustrate...

"Taught proper grip, stance, sight picture, and trigger control. Absolutely accurate on steel targets at 15 yards. 10 for ten after the second mag for 7 mags worth. She had a smile on her face."

"I have seen so many who were not gun people get pushed into bigger guns they could not shoot accurately, properly manipulate, or felt uncomfortable with and ended up either abandoning the sport or just throwing it in a drawer never to use again or rarely using it."

Civilian self-defense encounters are almost always quick, dirty and occur at contact or point blank ranges. How to get the weapon into the fight is obviously vital and often extremely difficult, but seldom trained by "shooters". The same applies to weapon retention. Firing from stable stances, with a secure two handed grip using a traditional sight picture is not something that is likely to occur in an actual civilian scenario. Since there was mention of a "client" being a possible threat in the OP, that tells me she is working in close proximity to the individual(s) she is concerned with, so a contact scenario even the more likely. Despite what some instructors may say, it's difficult to keep a semi-auto running in an ECQ situation no matter the training of the individual.

Semi-autos need a certain amount of stability to cycle reliably, but will she be able to keep that .22 auto running while moving, with a crappy one handed grip, while possibly being in physical contact with her assailant? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Plus figure in the finicky nature of .22 autoloaders and of rimfire cartridges themselves. Consider the low stopping power potential of the .22 combined with an untrained woman, who may possibly be older, so situational awareness, reflex and quickness of action and thought aren't going to be on the high end of the spectrum, meaning it going to contact highly probable. If if she has distance, she would likely run out of time.

I've come to notice gun guys seem to have a certain disdain or dismissal for physical fighting and like to take the perspective that they will always have a certain amount of time and distance on their side to effectively "smite their foe" from a safe distance and that that they will be capable of doing so despite no training beyond static range work, but that unfortunately isn't reality. And while I would absolutely agree that the vast majority of civilian armed defense situations are resolved by simply producing a weapon or as soon as shots are fired, that cannot and should not be counted on. She may not be able to break contact or convince the assailant(s) they have somewhere else to be and should move on to another easier victim. She may have to physically stop them and I just don't think a .22 is acceptable in that context, because even if there is adequate separation to get off multiple shots, she would have to make fairly precise hits, while in a panic, against a moving target, while she is likely in motion herself, which she will likely never practice and even if she did, that would be an ideal scenario not what is likely.

I think she would be much better armed with an enclosed hammer snub in .38 special. Standard pressure ammunition is extremely mild and neither my wife, mother or even grandmother(in her 90's) have any significant problems with it. If she absolutely insists on a .22, there are choices available in revolvers.

From Massad Ayoob...

The Real Ladies Gun -- Handguns

So as a new shooter I should have immediately taught quick draw and running and shooting?

Do you even understand that the basic building blocks need to be taught before she becomes a pie hitting super tactical 3%er taking down attackers john wick style and running punisher skulls on her lifted truck and putting all her training classes in her signature lines on tactical forums?

Now I don't even know what to say to your out of the zone of reality comments on how to teach a new shooter and introduce them to handguns so I will just stop responding.
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ziggy2525 View Post
I always appreciate your perspective, but am wondering what your source for this is. I've seen you reference Tom Givens before, but when I look at his statistics for the 66 civilian shootouts his students have been in, 92.5% were between 3 and 7 yards. Only 3% were under 2 yards. He says his stats parallel the 20 to 30 shooting/year where FBI agents were "robbed" when bad guys didn't realize they were robbing FBI agents.

Here's a link...
http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/up...Newsletter.pdf
I'm aware of the Givens article. I've seen very little specific information given on any of the incidents, which is important to understand what actually occurred and what the stats actually show and document. IIRC, I believe he stated most were armed robberies. Are most of them armed robberies where the intended victim pulled out a gun and started firing as the criminal immediately fled? Was opening firing absolutely necessary? I don't know since he has never provided many details that I'm aware of. And how did he verify the truthfulness and facts of these events? His stats also contradict some other studies that I've come across, such as the much larger Claude Werner study...

https://tacticalprofessor.files.word...r-w-tables.pdf

Tom Givens is also known for saying “three shots in 3 seconds at 3 feet” is still what a typical defensive shooting looks like.
We’ll also note Givens is famous for saying, “The primary cause of needing to reload is missing" and as shown in this video demonstrates how little force is needed to induce a malfunction in an autoloader....


Yet he is always advocating for semi-autos, which would seem to be unecessary by his own statements. Of course getting more people to take his very expensive courses would be of benefit and an incentive to him to sell the virtues of the autoloader, despite learning apparently unecessary skills.

http://www.recoilweb.com/old-mans-gun-130902.html

I've discussed these articles with various instructors and I recall one noting that in the Claude Werner study, only incidents where the defender was successful in using their gun to defend themselves were included. Also, one pointed out that those seeking training from Tom Givens are usually going to be very serious students that are going to be well trained and much more situationally aware than most people.

The fact remains that most people don't carry a gun. It is also true that most violence perpetrated upon civilians occurs at very close or contact distances simply because it has to- unarmed assaults, rape, knife attacks and bludgeoning all reThe average person, even if armed, will have great difficultly effectively accessing and using a weapon once physically engaged with an assailant(s). Plus it is not always the correct response to immediately go for the weapon, especially if you haven't a clue how to do it in the context of extreme close-quarters or any knowledge or skill as to how to retain that weapon. That might explain why we supposedly see so many civilian shootings just outside of arms length. I recommend not engaging and shooting anyone if at all possible, so making 15 or 10 yard shots is just not something I devote much thought or training towards.

Armed robberies, muggings and carjackings obviously have to occur at very close distances since they attempting to take something you have. They are not likely going to stand 15 yards away. Someone opening firing at a civilian from long range is just not very common and would be more along the ones of an assassination attempt, terrorist attack or active-shooter scenario, none of which I'm all that concerned with and even if I was, GOTX and fleeing the scene is almost always a better response than hanging around and returning fire. Most gun guys seem to focus on ranged shoot-outs and even running gun battles, but unless you're a gangmember, such events are just not a realistic probability.
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Wise_A View Post
Hang on, he's about to recommend enrolling her in eee-see-kew-see.


Actually, not at all. But, you did confirm my earlier assertion that many on here are dismissive and have disdain for any type of physical fighting methods or combatives. In your case, I think the derision is likely based in fear and feelings of inadeqauency.
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